what was that like

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What was a time when you wish you had spoken up? Links for this episode: Lactaid: https://www.lactaid.com/ Cabot cheese: https://cabotcreamery.com/ Fred gets his mower: https://youtu.be/4X61n8bNl0k?si=3zslYydbUnoakJJO Fred on the local news: https://youtu.be/C tFcw0p_A?si=KRM1rZHh3qWooERZ Underage Undercover show: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/undercover-underage/b06c13c4-6295-466a-b44f-480747b84430 We Have Cancer podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-have-cancer/id970806995 What Would You Do? https://www.youtube.com/@WhatWouldYouDo Meredith’s desk topper: https://a.co/d/0cvYknJa Meredith s workspace, including her desk topper The Fish Doorbell: https://visdeurbel.nl/en Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Quince - Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Boll Branch - get 15% off your first order AND free shipping: BollandBranch.com/WHATWAS   Nutrafol - Get $10 off your first month’s subscription, and free shipping: use promo code WHATWAS at Nutrafol.com   Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

One of my favorite movies is Twelve Angry Men. The original was made in 1957 starring Henry Fonda, then it was remade for TV in 1997 starring Jack Lemmon. It’s a true-crime courtroom drama, but most of the action takes place in the jury deliberation room for a murder trial. I think both versions are pretty good. But we know how Hollywood likes to play up the drama and the theatrics, and what we see on the screen is entertaining, but not always very accurate. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know what it’s like to actually be on a jury for a murder trial? That’s what my guest today, Jami, is going to talk about. She was actually the jury foreman. Jami told this story here on the podcast about 4 years ago, and it was a really popular episode. She’s a great storyteller and I think you’ll enjoy hearing all the behind-the-scenes details about being on a jury for a major case – and how this experience inspired her to start her OWN true crime podcast. Rob Courtney Jami If you’d like to contact Jami, her website is https://Murderish.com Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/262 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Quince - Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Boll Branch - get 15% off your first order AND free shipping: BollandBranch.com/WHATWAS   Nutrafol - Get $10 off your first month’s subscription, and free shipping: use promo code WHATWAS at Nutrafol.com   Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT   Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): One of my favorite movies is Twelve Angry Men. The original was made in 1957 starring Henry Fonda, then it was remade for TV in 1997 starring Jack Lemmon. It’s a true-crime courtroom drama, but most of the action takes place in the jury deliberation room for a murder trial. I think both versions are pretty good. But we know how Hollywood likes to play up the drama and the theatrics, and what we see on the screen is entertaining, but not always very accurate.  Wouldn’t it be interesting to know what it’s like to actually be on a jury for a murder trial? That’s what my guest today, Jami, is going to talk about. She was actually the jury foreman. Jami told this story here on the podcast about 4 years ago, and it was a really popular episode. She’s a great storyteller and I think you’ll enjoy hearing all the behind-the-scenes details about being on a jury for a major case – and how this experience inspired her to start her OWN true crime podcast. Scott  Tell us about the case that you were involved in. Jami  It was a murder case. It happened in the Santa Clarita Valley, which is at, like, the northern tip of Los Angeles County. Scott  That s where you live, right? Jami   It is. I ve lived out here for about 10 years. The murder actually happened in Newhall which is part of that bigger Santa Clarita Valley in 2015. Well, I guess, I should say that I sat on the jury as the jury foreman, so that was how I kind of knew about the case. I think the murder case was reported, kind of, in the local news outlets, but it definitely didn t make any kind of national headlines or anything like that. Courtney Arvizu was the victim and Robert Arvizu was the perpetrator those two met in January of 2015. Rob was much older than Courtney Rob was in his early 50s. Courtney was 25 years old. They met in January of 2015. They started dating right away. I am not sure how they met. After the trial, this town is, kind of, like, a big valley out here in Santa Clarita Valley, but it s the kind of valley where everybody s kind of connected to one another in some way or the other. So, I came across some friends who I started talking about the trial and they said, “Courtney and Rob used to work out at my gym. They may have met at the gym.” I m not sure if they were both gym rats, but I do know that Courtney and Rob lived across the street from one another. Rob lived in an apartment in Newhall and Courtney lived with her mother in another apartment right across the street. So, they started dating in January and they, kind of, got serious and fell in pretty quick.  A couple of months later, in March, they went to a graphic design convention in Las Vegas because Rob, at the time, was a graphic designer and his employer had sent him there on a business trip. Courtney went with him and, on a whim, they decided, “Why don t we get married while we re here?” So, they did they just kind of had an impromptu wedding in Vegas. They ve only been together for a couple of months. After they’ve gotten married, they went out to celebrate. They went to a bar, and at a bar, they ran into one of Rob s former bandmates Rob was really into music. I think Rob had some connection with Ozzy Osborne and some people in his band back in the day. So, they ran into one of Rob s old bandmates and he started drinking and things like that. Well, Rob and Courtney went back to their hotel room and things, kind of, got pretty dark. Rob, immediately started accusing Courtney of flirting with the old bandmate “You’re this. You re that.” and, sort of, calling her all these horrible names. We came to find out at the trial that this is something that Rob did not only to Courtney he was very verbally and physically abusive but he also did this to his former girlfriends years before Courtney. Courtney likely didn t know Rob s past when she met him. He probably charmed her. As an older man, he was into music, getting tattoos, and giving tattoos. There was some sort of appeal, but she probably had no clue what his past was.  So, they went back to the hotel room and started arguing. Then, the argument turned physical Rob actually strangled her so bad that she ended up with petechia in her eyes, which are basically, like, little blood vessels, I think, that pop when there s so much pressure placed on your neck. In the police photos that were taken later, you could see the petechia in her eyes and red marks around her neck. While they were arguing, I guess, it got so heated and so loud, that some of the other hotel guests called the police or, at least, security. I think security was the first to arrive. Ultimately, the sheriff s department was actually called in they documented the fight and took photos of Courtney, although she did not press charges at that time I think. Scott  What a crazy honeymoon story! Jami  This was their honeymoon. I mean, right from the start of their relationship, things were not good he showed his true colors right off the bat. That’s what so many women got into but you can t blame the victim. I mean, there s manipulation and love bombing involved. There s the honeymoon phase after somebody is abused, the perpetrator says, “I m sorry,” and probably buys them flowers, and it s just very easy, I think, for women to just fall back into the relationship even after something so traumatic happens. So, after that happened, they stayed together. They came back to Newhall and just, kind of, started living life as normal. A couple of months later this is now May, they ve been together for 5 months Courtney and Rob were invited to a birthday party for Rob s best friend, Eric, who lives in the Valley who lives in Northridge. It s a house party. So, they went there. There was even a picture of Courtney and Rob at the party shown at the trial. They have their arms around each other. Courtney s wearing, I think, like, a black tank top and some cute little short shorts. She was adorable. They each had a beer in their hand and they looked happy. But things quickly turned at the house party and Rob started behaving very erratically. I mean, he even jumped on this guy s back at one point a guy who he didn t even know, who was another guest at the party. I think he bit him on the cheek so hard that there was an injury to his cheek. I don t know if Rob was intoxicated or what, but he was extremely erratic and inappropriate. Scott  That is just bizarre behavior. Jami  In the trial, other things would come out his behavior was truly bizarre. Some of the behavior that one of his ex-girlfriends reported during one terrifying morning with Rob was that, years prior to meeting Courtney, he would abuse her and then get up and start dancing around and skipping it was just weird. I don t know what was going on with Rob psychologically, but it s apparent that there are other things at play probably. So he started acting crazy at this party, verbally abusing Courtney, telling her, “You re a whore. You re a housewife whore. You re this. You re that.” He was charging toward her in a very aggressive manner. I mean, the whole party was interrupted by this fight. Courtney was a firecracker from what I could tell and from what people had said about her, she was not one to just, sort of, take this abuse lightly I mean, she would fire back at him. So, she was at this party saying, “Fuck you, Rob! Fuck you!” So, they were just in this heated argument.  So, Rob had a best friend named Eric. Eric was married to a woman named Mei Lin, who was actually Rob s best friend before he even met Eric. When Mei Lin married Eric, that s when Eric sort of became Rob s male best friend. So, Rob was very close with Mei Lin and Eric. Eric s birthday party was being held at their house in Northridge. So, when he started charging after Courtney and being really verbally abusive toward her, Mei Lin and everybody tried to intervene. Mei Lin was even telling Courtney, “Please just shut up. Don t fire back at him. This is getting too much.” At one point, Mei Lin basically told her husband, “Eric, look, you ve got to get Rob out of here.” So, Eric pulled him into another room in the house and Rob proceeded to tell Eric, “Courtney s cheating on me. She s screwing other guys at work. And this and that.” Again, we found out as jurors from witness testimony that this is something that Rob did so whether Courtney was actually cheating on him or not or not, we had no reason to believe that she was we had every reason to believe that this is something Rob accused almost every ex-girlfriend whom he was with. I don t know if it was just deep insecurity or what, but he accused every girlfriend of, “You’re a whore. You re cheating on me.”  and all of these things.  So, Mei Lin and Eric decided, “It s time for Rob to go. This has just gotten too serious. We ve got to get him out of this house. We ve got to separate him and Courtney.” So, that s exactly what Eric did. Eric got Rob into the passenger seat of his car, drove him home to Newhall, and get him out of there, basically. Meanwhile, Courtney was still at this house party. Courtney and Rob s relationship was still new they d only been together for 5 months so she didn t really know these people at the party that well, but there she was all by herself at that party. She had been yelled at and charged up by her husband. Rob actually ended up leaving with Courtney’s cell phone and her car keys, so she had nothing she was at this party with no phone and no keys.  Eric and Rob got in the car and everything started off fine. Eventually, as Eric started driving, he had to pull over to the side of the road because Rob became violent towards him and started yelling at him, “You re taking Courtney s side! Fuck you!” This and that. Eric s like, “Look, you need to calm down. I m going to drive you home.” This and that. So, Eric started driving again. They got on the 405 freeway to drive home to Newhall it s a very busy freeway for those of you who don’t know. As he started driving on the freeway, Rob started acting up again. This time, he became violent with his best friend he started punching and strangling Eric in the car while he was driving on the freeway. He was strangling him so much that Eric has to pull over again. It came out at trial that Eric had some MMA fighting experience. So Rob was a big guy, but Eric was also, like, not somebody to be messed with. So, Eric, I think, at some point, got Rob into some, sort of, like, headlock to subdue him and be just like, “Dude, stop punching me. Calm down. I m going to drive you home.” So, Rob calmed down again and they started driving on the 405 freeway all the way to New Hall, but they didn’t quite get back to Rob and Courtney s apartment. They got to, like, a gas station somewhere in Newhall where Rob started acting up and became violent again. Eric was like, “I ve had enough!” He opened the passenger door and Rob got out. Then, Rob dropped to his knees and started, kind of, like, pleading to Eric, “I m so sorry. I shouldn t have done that.” Eric was like, “Look, that is enough.” He had been assaulted twice now. So, Eric slammed the door and just drove off. So now, Rob s somewhere in Newhall close to his apartment, I think, at a gas station or something. Eric turned around and started driving back to the party. He had been injured pretty badly in the assault by his best friend, on his birthday, of all times.  Eric was driving back to the party, but before he got back to his own house, he decided to stop at a neighbor s house to assess his injuries I don t know if he actually knew these neighbors or what made him stop there first before going back home and they actually took pictures of his face. Those pictures were shown at trial. I mean, it was horrendous his face looked like his nose may have been broken, he had blood on his face and all over his T-shirt. I mean, his eye looked injured. So, there was definitely some sort of assault that happened in that car by Rob. Scott  The fact that they thought of taking pictures and documenting that I mean, he must have already been thinking, “There s going to be some kind of criminal charges that come out of this.” Jami  Yeah, it was very serious serious enough for them to take pictures and document it. I mean, his face looked horrible. I mean, it was a terrible assault that happened in that car. Eventually, Eric got back to his own house. When he walked in, of course, his wife Mei Lin was just horrified. She s like, “What happened to your face?!” Of course, he told her about the assault in the car. Eric s back at the party. After Eric and Rob had left, Mei Lin was able to pull Courtney aside and tell her, “Look, I don t think you should go home tonight. You guys are in a bad place. You should just spend the night here. It s too heated. Things need to calm down.” Courtney didn t want to do that, probably, because she was uncomfortable again, she didn t know many people there. She probably didn t know Mei Lin and Eric very well. Scott  It s hard to imagine such an awkward position to be in this house full of people who she didn’t know, especially after being embarrassed by her husband. Jami  Yes. It was a really awkward position to be in, for sure, but Mei Lin was doing her best to help her out. After knowing that Courtney didn t want to spend the night, Mei Lin offered, “Hey, I ll drive you to anywhere you want to go. Where do you want to go? I ll take you anywhere.” I guess that Courtney refused that as well. At some point, Courtney just left the party without her phone and keys and nobody knew where she went they only knew that all of a sudden, Courtney wasn’t there anymore. By the time Eric got back from dropping Rob off, Courtney was already gone and nobody knew where she was, but they did know that she didn’t have a phone, keys, or anything. She was just walking around the San Fernando Valley by that time, it s nighttime. It s just a really scary and dangerous situation to be in.  Meanwhile, Rob was in Newhall and, just by happenstance, he came to this guy I forgot his name I want to say his name is Nico. A guy named Nico and his girlfriend were driving in Newhall. Nico was a friend of Courtney s. When he saw Rob he knew Rob through Courtney he pulled over with his girlfriend was in the car. Rob, kind of, told him what happened and he went like, “Oh, get in! I ll take you to your apartment.” Rob got in the car and immediately started saying crazy shit. I mean, he was telling Nico s girlfriend, “If you don t fucking treat Nico right, I ll kill you!” That’s like, first off, “Okay, whoa, that s really aggressive!” Also, Nico was not even really Rob s friend he s Courtney s friend. So, why is he threatening his girlfriend to treat him right? That’s the weirdest thing. Rob also said something to Nico to the effect of, “Well, I m going to go to Mabel’s bar and do some heroin. I m going to go do some drugs at Mabel’s bar.” Mabel’s bar is, kind of, like, a dive bar in Santa Clarita. I ve been there before and nothing good happens there I ve seen fights happen there. I mean, it s just one of those bars. So, he was talking about doing drugs at the bar, “You better treat Nico right or I ll kill you,” and the car ride quickly became very strange.  Nico and his girlfriend definitely want the car ride to be over sooner rather than later. So, they dropped Rob off at Courtney’s and his apartment. I guess, I should back up a little bit so that people know that the apartment was Rob s first. Courtney quickly moved in after they started dating she only lived right across the street. So, now they were sharing Rob s apartment. At Rob s home, Nico drove off he couldn’t get out of there fast enough. I think Nico testified at trial that Rob did call him one more time on his cell phone and say, “Hey, do you want to go to the bar with me or hang out?” Of course, Nico refused after that crazy car ride. I think it was about 8 o clock in the evening, maybe, by the time Rob got back to his apartment after being dropped off by Nico. Again, Courtney was somewhere in the valley nobody knew where she was and people were getting a little worried. Rob wanted to find Courtney. He also didn’t know where she was. Eventually, Rob called Courtney s mother and said, “Look, we had a fight. I can t find Courtney. Is she with you? Have you seen her?” Courtney s mom hadn’t seen her. That was the first time she heard that they d gotten into an argument and that her daughter was nowhere to be found. So now, Courtney s mom was worried and did probably what most mothers would do she got in her car, drove to the San Fernando Valley, and tried looking for her daughter. I mean, she had no idea where to go the valley is huge but she was going to make an attempt. It came out at trial that Courtney really loved the restaurant, Chipotle. So, her mom was like, “Well, let me just go to Chipotle.” She walked into Chipotle and said, “Hey, this is what my daughter looks like. Have you seen her?” They haven t seen her, so she left. Essentially, Courtney’s mom couldn’t find her daughter, so she just drove back home. At some point, there s another phone call. Courtney s mom then calls Rob. So now, both Rob and Courtney s mom got in touch with the goal of trying to find Courtney.  Obviously, Courtney s mom wanted to find her to protect her. Well, we re gonna find out why Rob wanted to find her later. At some point I don t know if Rob called Courtney s mom or Courtney s mom called Rob they re on the phone again. Courtney s mom testified at trial that she could hear Rob and Courtney arguing in the background and Rob telling Courtney, “Get in the fucking car!” In the background, Courtney refused to get in the car, kind of, like, “No, fuck you! I m not getting in the car!” So, it was apparent that Rob drove back down to the valley or somewhere and caught up with and found Courtney, but Courtney refused to get into the car. Meanwhile, Courtney s mom was hearing this exchange, which likely only made her more worried about her daughter because things seemed to be escalating. As far as time goes, I want to say that it s 9.00 9.30 o’clock in the evening by the time that exchange happens. So, Courtney s mom got even more worried. By that time, Courtney’s mom was completely worried about her daughter. After that, she tried to call Rob a few times, but Rob stopped answering his phone. She didn’t know where her daughter is, so now she had gotten more and more worried like, she can t sleep.  By around 9.30 o clock in the evening, Courtney makes her way back to Newhall and all the way back to her apartment. At trial, the prosecutor was not able to tell us how she got back home. We don t know if she hitched a ride, used somebody s phone, or called a friend somehow, Courtney was able to get back to Newhall and back to her apartment. She didn t have her keys, so she couldn t get into her apartment. She also did not…her name was not on the lease. So, she went to the apartment manager’s apartment. The apartment manager and his girlfriend lived in an apartment which was actually in the same complex as Courtney and Rob they lived on-site and managed that apartment complex. Courtney knocked on the door at 9.15 9.30 at night, the apartment manager answered the door, and he saw that Courtney looked upset Courtney s got mascara running down her face. She basically said, “I ve been into an argument with Rob. I d like to get into my apartment, but I don t have my keys. I just want to grab my things and go and spend the night with my mom in her apartment.” Scott  Which is right across the street… Jami  Exactly. She could have just walked there. Courtney s name was not on the lease, so the apartment manager could not allow her with his master key to get into the apartment without Rob s permission. As this story unfolds had this phone call never taken place, had they never gotten Rob s permission ahead of time to let Courtney into the apartment in which she had lived you re going to go, “Oh my God… There were all these moments where her life could have been saved if something had been a little bit different.” But none of these people knew what was about to happen, so it s not their fault, but you can imagine how they feel. So the apartment manager called Rob Rob answered the phone and he said, “Hey, Courtney s here. She wants to get into the apartment. Her name s not on the lease. Do I have your permission to let her into the apartment?” Rob said, “Yes. I ll be right there.” I think the apartment manager ended up calling Rob back and saying, “Actually, I don t think it s a good idea for you to come here. You don t need to come here. We ve got your permission. We re going to let Courtney into the apartment. She s going to stay you know at her mom s. Why don t you stay where you re at?” because he could sense how elevated this fight was. Rob said, “No, I ll be right there.” The apartment manager hung up the phone with Rob again it was around 9.30 at night by that time. The apartment manager’s girlfriend got the master key and walked Courtney to her apartment. They walked upstairs, opened the door, and Courtney went in, immediately grabbed, like, some overnight things hastily so that she could just get out and stay with her mom. At trial, it was shown that she just grabbed, like, a Bath and Bodyworks bag that was in the apartment there was a hair clip in there and just some random items and it looked as if she just grabbed whatever bag she saw. It was apparent that Courtney was in a hurry to get her stuff and get out. I think we can imagine why she was in a hurry. Scott  She probably knew that Rob said, “I ll be right there,” and was on his way… Jami  Yes, exactly. She also knew how possessive, controlling, and angry he was at her that night. She probably knew that, “He’s going to come to find me here and it s not going to be good.” There was a history of abuse he had abused her in Vegas. So, she was in a hurry as she grabbed her things. Well, I think the apartment manager’s girlfriend could also see how heated everything was and offered to walk Courtney across the street to her mom s house to make sure she got there safely. Courtney said, “No, I ll be fine. It s okay. You can go.” So the apartment manager’s girlfriend left. Now, Courtney was in the apartment by herself gathering her things. She had a cute little dog on a leash that she was going to bring with her to her mom s.  Because Rob got that phone call from the apartment manager, he left wherever he was and came screeching into the apartment complex it was probably 9.45 o’clock at night. He came screeching in so loud that the apartment manager’s son who also lived on-site in one of the apartments and helped, kind of, manage the grounds heard him screeching in. So, Rob screeched into the apartment. He parked his truck in the parking spot it is directly in front of his and Courtney s apartment. The apartment manager’s son was in his car at that time, so he drove up to their apartment, stopped, rolled down the window Rob was getting out of his truck kind of, confronted him, and said, “Hey, man. Like, you re driving too fast. It s against the apartment rules. You got to slow down. What s going on?” Rob said, “Oh, everything s fine.” They kind of had a quick conversation. As they were talking, Courtney must have heard Rob pull in. So, Courtney opened the apartment door, walked downstairs she had her dog in her hand and yelled at Rob, “Rob, give me my fucking keys! I m leaving!” How we know this is because the apartment manager’s son actually testified on his conversation and confrontation with Rob about the screeching tires. He said that he saw Courtney come down. At that point, the apartment manager’s son realized, “Okay, this is kind of a domestic situation.” He felt a bit awkward and, like, “It s none of my business. I should get out of here.” So, he said goodbye and left. At that point, he saw Rob walk up the stairs to the apartment. By that time, Courtney had walked back into the apartment after she confronted Rob.  So, Courtney and Robert were inside the apartment now, it s closer to maybe 9.50 10.00 o clock at night. At that point, there was witness testimony by a lady named Maria she was a tenant at the apartment. She lived directly below Rob and Courtney. Her apartment had the exact same layout as Rob and Courtney s. She testified that between 10.00 10.30 ish, she was sitting in her living room watching TV she knew the time because she had to be up early the next day for work, so she always went to bed right around the same time. She testified that she heard one loud thump between 10.00 and 10.30 PM as if something heavy had fallen in the living room of the apartment directly above them. Essentially, what happened was, as soon as Rob got into that apartment, he beat up Courtney.  There were autopsy photos shown and it was just awful. There were crime scene photos shown and then there were also autopsy photos shown where you could really see that she had blood covering the entirety of her face it was likely because, when you see the autopsy photos, she had two deep cuts on each eyebrow and, as you know, those tend to bleed a lot. So, that started bleeding. She also had a very deep cut under one of her eyes. I mean, she had been beaten up. She looked as if her jaw was out of place. Her face was slightly disfigured from the beating you could tell that he was relentless in whatever he did to her. It was theorized at trial that Courtney was likely rendered unconscious from the beating not dead but unconscious. At some point, she fell on the living room floor with her face down on the floor, but that was not the cause of death I think that it had been reported in local news outlets that she had died from blunt force trauma. Although she did suffer a severe beating, her actual cause of death was asphyxiation. After Rob had beaten her up, she fell and landed facedown on the living room floor, he got on top of her and applied so much pressure to the back of her head that her face was smashed into the carpet, and she could no longer breathe he cut off her airway. There was a medical expert who testified that it would take approximately 30 seconds for somebody to lose consciousness from their airway being cut off in that manner, and it would take another 2-3 minutes for somebody to die from their airway being cut off in that manner. So basically, Rob beat her up, and then took the second action of applying so much pressure that she could no longer breathe that s how she died. Scott  2-3 minutes that s really an extended period of time to hold someone s head to the floor like that. Jami  It is a long time. If you were to just sit in silence right now for 2-3 minutes, it is a long time. They also said that there has to be a tremendous amount of pressure. So, it just seemed obvious that he was enraged and wanted to finish the job. Ultimately, we had the option as jurors we were presented with voluntary manslaughter, second-degree murder, first-degree murder, or not guilty. We deliberated for 2 days. The trial lasted about 2 weeks. We deliberated for about 2 days and we landed on first-degree murder on that second day. It took us a while. We knew that it was not voluntary manslaughter. Voluntary manslaughter is like… I ve used this example before “You are in a bar fight. You punch someone. On the way down, they hit their head on something and they die as a result of that head injury. You didn t mean to kill them, but your actions caused their death.” We knew that it wasn t that. We knew that it was at least a second-degree murder. Second-degree murder is elevated and there has to be, what they call, malice aforethought. There doesn t have to be premeditation that s first-degree murder but there has to be malice or malicious intent. So, we believe that it was at least second-degree murder.  Why did we land on first-degree murder? I learned something new from the judge who, kind of, explained to us I think the judge was the prosecutor that, basically, premeditation can happen in a matter of seconds, minutes, days, or months. Everybody thinks of premeditated murder, like, “Oh, I gotta kill my husband for the life insurance money. So let me go to Walmart in the months leading up to it or the days leading up to it, buy all the supplies, lie and wait, and then kill them that is certainly premeditation. Rob’s premeditation was that he had already rendered her unconscious she was laying on the floor and she was zero threat to him. By the way, Courtney was about 5-feet tall, maybe 100 pounds she was not a big girl, she was petite and Rob was a big and muscular 6’ 6’2” guy. She was no threat to him. She was unconscious laying on the floor, he could have left her there, he could have gotten up, she would have likely survived her injuries, but he took the second action of wanting to finish the job he got on top of her and applied that pressure, which is what killed her in that 2-3 minutes. That s premeditation he had a moment to think about it and decided to kill her he premeditated it and he carried it out. So, that s where we landed on first-degree murder. I think that his legal team, later, filed an appeal, but it was ultimately upheld that this was, in fact, first-degree murder with premeditation. Scott  So, after he killed her, how did it all come out? He didn t go to the police station and turn himself in, I m sure… Jami   Right. The evidence that was presented at trial shows that, after he killed her, he tried to clean up. So, he went to the bathroom there was blood evidence in the drains of the shower, the sink, the towels. So, he tried to clean up, somewhat. He actually left Courtney there in the apartment, went to Mabel’s bar, and tried to get in, but the Mabel’s bar doormen testified at trial that he wouldn’t let Rob in because Rob was clearly intoxicated. He said, “No, you re too drunk.” So, Rob got in his truck and drove back home. So, what happened was, after he killed her, he tried to clean up, and he stayed in the apartment for a while. He actually drank a bunch of beers after he killed her because those were found in the bathroom. He tried to get into Mabel’s bar but they wouldn t let him because he was too drunk. By that time, Rob got back in his truck, drove back to the apartment, and passed out in the bathroom.  During that time, Courtney s mom was still worried about her. Around midnight, she called the Santa Clarita sheriff s office and just said, “Look, can you do a welfare check on my daughter? Can you send somebody to the apartment and see if she s there and see if she s okay?” So, they did that. A sheriff s deputy showed up at the apartment around midnight. It was dark outside, of course. He knocked on the door. Rob answered the door, but he only cracked it open a couple of inches. It s completely dark in the apartment behind him that’s what the sheriff s deputy testified to. He said, “Hey, I m here because somebody is very worried about Courtney. They ve asked us to do a welfare check. We want to make sure she s okay.” Rob said, “Oh, she s fine. She s sleeping. She s fine. We re both here. Everything s okay.” The sheriff said, “Well, I have to follow protocol. I have to actually speak with Courtney to make sure she s okay. Can you please go wake her up and bring her to the door so that I can talk to her?” Rob shuts the door and never came back. The deputy knocked on the door I don t know how many times he tried to make contact again, but Rob never came back to the door. Meanwhile, that sheriff s deputy got a priority call that he had to attend to so he had to leave the apartment, having never spoken with Courtney.  So, after about 1.5 hours went by, Courtney s mom was still awake. She was still worried about hearing nothing from her daughter, so she called the sheriff s department again. She said, “Hey, can you go check on Courtney again? Can you please go to the apartment and make sure she s okay?” So, by this time, 2 different sheriff s deputies showed up at their apartment. They knocked on the door. Nobody answered. That was about 1.30 o’clock in the morning. They knocked on the door again but nobody answered, so they knocked on the door harder this time that was what they testified but at that time, the door actually swung open because they knocked so hard. A lot of us thought later, like, “Maybe they broke protocol and actually, like, unlawfully opened the door somehow.” But regardless, we re glad that the door did open. What happened was the door opened slightly but it didn t open all the way because Rob and Courtney had one of those, like, hotel locks on the door the kind of the metal arm that swings so, if you lock it and somebody tried to open the door, it kind of, like, hold the doors open a few inches. So, the door opened a few inches and not all the way because of the hotel lock. At that time, one of the sheriff s deputies turned on their flashlight and started shining it inside the apartment to see what they could see. It was at that time that they saw a pair of legs on the floor and they knew, like, that somebody had passed out on the floor. So, at that time, they busted the door open, went inside, and discovered Courtney s lifeless body laying on the floor in the living room of the apartment.  There was a video shown at the trial of when the sheriff s deputies first entered the apartment and it was absolutely haunting and heartbreaking because there she was lying on the floor. Even though she died lying face down, by the time the deputies arrived, she was lying face up. Wrapped around her waist was her dog s leash. Her dog was barking at these officers because it doesn t know who they are. It was just the absolute saddest thing because Courtney was so close to leaving her apartment with her dog on a leash in her hand until Rob pulled up to the apartment and changed everything. I mean, she was this close to getting away! The leash was wrapped around Courtney s waist, so the dog was essentially stuck to Courtney and couldn t go anywhere. So, she lay there and she was pronounced dead pretty quickly at the scene. The dog was barking when they came in and it s just so sad to think about what the dog saw. It was a very haunting video that I ll probably never be able to get out of my mind because there s the dog s owner with her dog there s nothing that the dog can do. The dog was attached to its owner s body and the dog was scared because the sheriff s deputies are walking in on the whole thing.  Obviously, her face was bloody. They can see that something has occurred. So carefully, the sheriff s deputies made their way through the apartment, probably, with guns drawn. At that point, they walked down the hallway slowly and that’s where they found Rob passed out on the bathroom floor of the apartment that s when they saw all the beer bottles and things like that. So Rob was arrested, apprehended, and put into the back of the sheriff s deputy s car. At that point, it was clear that he was intoxicated. As I said, Courtney was pronounced dead at the scene. They brought Rob back to the sheriff s station. Of course, they took pictures. The palms of his hands had a bunch of dry blood on them. There was blood found in other parts of the apartment. They took a statement from him and I m pretty sure that he said he didn t know what happened. He probably claimed that he was drunk and didn t know what happened.  Basically, at trial, the prosecutor did a good job of, kind of, showing us what happened. I mean, Rob immediately beat Courtney up in the apartment. We know that she fell to the floor Maria, the lady downstairs, reported that she heard the thump and she was unconscious. We know that he cut off her airway and killed her. We think that after he killed Courtney she was lying facedown he went to the bathroom, tried to clean up, and took a shower. At that point, he tried to get back into Mabel’s bar with Courtney s body still in the apartment, but they wouldn t let him in because he had drank a bunch of beer at the apartment after he killed Courtney not before. That s an important distinction because his defense would claim that he was in an alcoholic stupor what he did doesn t remember because of the alcohol but we know that he was sober before he killed Courtney because the apartment manager’s son who confronted him for screeching into the air showed pictures of his truck and it was perfectly parked between the lines it was, like, a perfect parking job.  Also, the apartment manager’s son said that he was completely coherent he wasn t acting erratically or drunk or anything like that. He had a very sober conversation with him at that time. So we know that he killed Courtney, went into the bathroom, tried to clean up, drank a whole bunch of alcohol, got drunk, tried to get into the bar, got rejected, and went back to the apartment. We think that he probably went home and turned Courtney s body over to see what he had done, like, “Is she dead? What did I do?” Then, he went back to the bathroom and that s where he passed out that s where he was eventually found. So, that s kind of how everything unfolded. If you think about all the things that happened, people could have saved Courtney s life, but they didn t know that she was in imminent danger at that time. Scott  Right. Hindsight is easy. On the other hand, this is not a marriage that was destined for the last for a long time it’s something that would have happened, eventually, even if it wasn t on this night. Jami  Those were my thoughts, exactly. Other jurors said the same afterward. It s like Rob was a ticking time bomb. There were some very key witnesses who testified two of which were Rob s ex-girlfriends from years prior and it was absolutely horrifying to hear what they testified to and the treatment that he inflicted upon them. They were both very lucky to be alive today. So, it s like, if he didn t kill Courtney on that night, he would have killed her on another night because he was a ticking time bomb. It s interesting because ever since I sat on the jury, I ve come across people I still live in the Santa Clarita Valley who knew him. I have 2 friends who I realize were very good friends of Rob s back in the day before he met Courtney they actually distanced themselves from him back then because he was just on a path of drugs, alcohol, violence, and just not being a good person. So, they were not shocked that this happened years later in his life. I also came across one of his former employers at a silk-screening shop here in the Santa Clarita Valley, where I was getting some things embroidered or silk-screened we talked and realized that, at one point when she employed Rob, she was very close to him and her daughter. Rob had given her daughter a tattoo Rob was a tattoo artist. She said that, basically, his employment ended there in a rage he got so enraged with his employer. He left cussing and verbally abusing her, so she was also, like of course, she was shocked to hear what he did to Courtney “I m not all that shocked because he had it in him to be a very angry person.” Scott  Yeah, he just left a trail of destruction wherever he went.  Jami He did.  Scott Well, let s talk about how you got into this trial. You got a jury summons… I m wondering, was that the first time you ve ever gotten a jury summons? And what did you think when you first saw that? Jami  So it wasn t the first time, I had gotten one before many of us do. I was able to get out of it that was years prior. I called in and said that it was a conflict with work or whatever it was. So, I had never actually served on a jury or even stepped foot into the courthouse because of a jury summons. So, it was in June of 2017 the murder happened in 2015. In June of 2017, I got a jury summons. Again, I was up to my old tricks I called and got it extended because I didn t want to go. I was just busy in my career and in life. I had a young daughter at the time.  Scott  I always thought that, maybe, different states have different rules. I always thought that if you just say, “I can t do it because of work,” that s not a good enough excuse I didn t think that could get you out of it. Jami  I think you re right and I think they ve tightened things up. So, by the time I got this jury summons, I think what I was able to do was put it off, but not completely get out of it. So, I just kind of bought myself some time. I was able to just say, “Give me a reprieve.” I can t remember how it worked, but I’d call in and be able to say at least once, “No, I can t serve this time. But in the future, yes.” A month later in July, I was instructed to call in again on that same jury summons. I think how it worked was I got an extension, but the instructions were, “Call in again on July or whatever and see if you have to be called in at that time.” So, I called in, and I think I was not required to go in, but I was instructed to call in again the next day, so I called in the next day. Lo and behold, they said, “Okay, you are now required to report to the San Fernando Superior Court.” So, I went. Long story short, about 70 of us were instructed to go to the 4th floor, which I would later find out that it’s where all the serious crimes like murder are tried. There was a bunch of us filling the hallway right outside the courtroom. I was sitting on a bench and a gentleman sat next to me he was probably in his mid-50s. We struck up a conversation and he told me that he s a homicide detective. So of course, my ears perked up because I ve always been into true crime. Of course, he started picking his brain, we started chatting, and he went, “This trial you re about to be served on is most likely a homicide trial.” “Why would you say that?” He said, “I can tell by how many of you are here.” So I guess, whenever it s a murder trial, they’ll choose more jurors. So I said, “Wow, okay.” After I was done talking to him, all 70 of us were instructed to go into the courtroom and we all sat down. We were all assigned a 4-digit juror number. The judge started talking about what are the instructions, how this is all going to go down, and how they were going to choose people to go sit on the jury chairs. He said something, but all I heard was “187.”   that s when I knew this is a murder trial because I knew that 187 stands for homicide. I guess if you re a true crime addict or somebody who listens to gangster rap which I also am you’d know what 187 means. Scott  It’s like everybody knows what 420 means, right?  Jami  Yes. I know what that means too I’m not gonna tell you why. No, just kidding. So, you knew this is a murder trial just like the homicide detective he was right. They basically called out 18 of those 4-digit numbers and those 18 people were instructed to go sit in the jury box, and that s when they start getting asked questions a general set of questions at first. I can t remember if it s the judge or the prosecutor who asked these questions probably the prosecutor. They started asking these people, “What s your occupation? Are you married? What s your spouse s occupation? Do you have children? Are they adults? What s their occupation?” So they were trying to get a sense of all of that based on some of those preliminary questions. Some people were eliminated from that jury pool, so they had to start calling other numbers and I was in that second round of numbers. They called my number, so I got up, went in, sat on the number 6 juror seat, and stayed there. So, I ended up sitting there. I think the jury selection process took about 2 days, and I just stayed there the whole time. I ended up being selected on the jury. I guess, when the prosecutor started asking more in-depth questions to find out if they want to keep you on the jury or not, that s when we, kind of, had a clue as to what this trial would be about. She started asking, “Have you or anybody in your immediate family struggled with alcoholism? Have you ever been a victim of domestic abuse? Have you ever been accused or charged with domestic abuse?” So, you could sense that something to do with alcohol and domestic violence would come out in this trial. They ended up choosing 12 of us to sit on the jury I was juror number 6. There were also 3 alternates who sat in the front if any of us were ever excused, they would be called in to sit on the permanent jury, but they had to sit through the whole trial. Scott  Did those three also sit in on the jury deliberations after the trial? Jami  No, they didn t, because all of us jurors were able to stick it out. Nobody was ever excused, so none of those alternates were called to sit as part of the permanent jury. When the deliberations happened, all 12 of us jurors who had been selected from the beginning went to deliberate and, at that point, the alternates’ job is over, which is kind of disappointing for them because they sat through the whole trial but get no say in it they re just there just in case. Scott  What I was thinking is, what if one of the jurors passes out or has to be excused during deliberations? The alternates haven t really been part of the conversation up till that point, and they d have to, kind of, come in halfway. Jami  That’s a great point. I hadn t even thought about how that would go. I don t know if they would have called one of those alternates in. Maybe, those alternates were given instructions, “Hey, the trial’s over. You re not going to deliberate at this point.” But I wonder if they got instructions that, “Hey, you re still not allowed to talk about the details of this trial because we may have to call you in for deliberations.” I wonder if that happened I don t know the answer to that. I had talked to 2 of those alternate jurors later after the trial because they wanted to know how the deliberations go, because they didn t get to be part of it. So, I talked to them and they were very let down that they didn t get to be a part of that conversation, but it was interesting to hear how they would have voted or what their decision would have been. Scott  During the 2 weeks when the trial was happening, you weren t allowed to ask any questions or anything, right? You just kind of just take it all in. Can you even take notes? Jami  We were definitely able to take notes, and we took a lot of them. I mean, my notepad was full. I mean, it was a 2-week trial it s a long time. There are just so many details. So, they do give each juror a pad of paper and a pencil which, of course, you have to leave there at the end of every day you can t bring it home or anything like that. A lot of us took vigorous notes, and we were able to bring those notes with us into deliberations. Interestingly, we were not allowed to take them with us. After we reached a verdict, we had to leave our notepads there. The first order of business was that we had to pick a jury foreman. As you probably know, the jury foreman s job is not to carry the weight of deciding how the verdicts should go, it s really just to make sure that everybody on the jury has a voice and an opportunity to speak and state their opinion and their point of views so that it s not skewed toward just a handful of jurors making the decision for everybody. So, pretty quickly, I was chosen as the jury foreman. I think they asked, “Is anybody willing to be the jury foreman?” A few of us raised our hands and I had no issue with it. I raised my hand and there were some other people who raised their hands. I don t know why they selected me, to be honest with you. There was really no discussion of, “Oh, we think it should be…” I think, probably, somebody just looked at me and was like, “Okay, you re willing to do it,” and everybody, kind of, looked around and be, like, “Yeah, sounds good. She s the jury foreman.” It was interesting. You, kind of, don t know what you re getting yourself into. Scott  It does. It seems so random. This is a job you ve never done before and someone s life is hanging in the balance. It just seems a little bit haphazard… Jami  It does. It seems like it should be more formal and all of this. I strongly felt the weight of being a juror and the jury foreman, absolutely. I mean, I lost sleep over it. I never took that lightly. Regardless of how I felt, based on the evidence that was presented about this defendant, what we re about to decide is going to impact his life and several other people s lives forever. So, it was very, very heavy. I did feel like I could be the person to make sure that nobody gets bullied in the jury room, that everybody has a chance to speak some people are going to be more shy than others. We can make sure that they have an opportunity to speak. I felt like I could make it a safe space for all of us and to really listen and let everybody speak we did that. I have to say that being on a jury was a very good experience there were differing opinions, for sure, but it was interesting. As all 12 of us sat around this big rectangular table I was on the right side of the table along with 6 other people. The 6 other jurors were on the left side those were the quiet people whom I had to draw conversation out with, which was the hardest part of my job as the jury foreman   like, say, “Wait, you re nodding your head. What do you think? Do you agree with what this person was saying over here?” My people at my side of the table, including me, were very boisterous we had no problem saying, “But what about this? Let s talk about this,” getting up and writing things on the board to kind of map it out. So, one side of the table was boisterous, the other side was quiet. In terms of age and cultural makeup, it ranged from people in their I want to say mid-20s up to their 60s or, maybe, early 70s. There was a fair mix of Caucasian people, Hispanic people, and Asians. There were men, there were women. I didn t remember it ever being like, “Oh, wow. It s a bunch of 40-year-old females,” or anything like that. Scott  Well, that s the whole point of choosing people for the jury to have a variety right? Jami  Yeah, absolutely. There was a decent variety, for sure. After we chose the jury foreman, we got right to work. Rob Arvizu, the defendant, was not only charged with some level of murder or voluntary manslaughter it was up to us to decide but also for the assault of his best friend, Eric, in the car on the night of the party. Fairly quickly, we decided to talk about the assault charges first sort of, decide on those and get that out of the way so that we can move on to the murder. We decided fairly quickly that, “Yes, he assaulted his friend in a very serious way.” There was evidence of it. More than one witness testified about it. We had photos. So, we did decide that he was guilty of the 2 assault charges.  Scott  And the whole time, in the courtroom while this was all going on, before the jury deliberations, Rob was sitting there, right?  Jami Yes.  Scott Did you make eye contact with him? Or what was his demeanor during the trial? Jami  We did, especially when we had the verdict that was, sort of, the creepiest part for me because there was a point at which Rob made eye contact with every single juror, and it was just, “Oh, I don t want to look you in the eye.” It was just very creepy. He had an interesting look about him. There were moments during the trial when there was laughter in the courtroom, believe it or not. The judge kind of had, like, a dynamic personality and he had said a couple of things, which I can t remember what, that made people, kind of, giggled a little bit in the courtroom that’s interesting as that is a murder trial and Rob would laugh. There was one time when he swung back in his chair and, kind of, like, scanned the whole jury. Whenever he did that, I would be kind of, like, looking the other way. I was glaring at him a lot of times during the trial because, of course, I was trying to gauge his reactions to things and his reaction to the witness testimony. But when it came time to look him in the eyes, it was not something that I was interested in.  There were times during the witness testimony, his best friend, Mei Lin, who was the wife of Eric, who was at the house party they had such a deep history together of being friends that Rob was actually the godfather to Mei Lin’s children she was called in by the prosecution to testify against Rob. So, although she knew what he did was horrible and did not agree with it and thought it was just atrocious, she was so deeply affected by, “Gosh, all these decades of being friends with somebody you love this person and here he is charged with murder and you ve got to testify against him.” So when she was walked into the courtroom to testify, she came in sobbing. She was already visibly shaking like, just trembling. When her witness testimony was over, there was this tense and awkward moment, for sure, in the courtroom. When she was done with her testimony, she was excused from the witness stand. Then, every other witness would, kind of, like, get up and couldn t wait to get out of there fast enough. She sat there after she was excused by the judge and just glared at Rob. She was trembling and crying. We don t know what she was thinking. In my mind, I always thought she was thinking, like, “Why did you do this? You didn t have to do this. Why did it have to be this way?”  I ve met people who actually said that Rob was a very charismatic and nice guy. Somebody I came across who knew him described him as a big teddy bear after the trial. So, I think Rob had different sides for sure. I think that he was charismatic. I think people really liked him, loved him, and thought that he was a big teddy bear. But then, they also saw very dark, ugly, and violent sides to him, especially to girlfriends which we can talk about if you d like. Then, we were like, “Okay, the assault charges we re going to convict him of that. Let s talk about the murder.” As I said earlier, we kind of decided right away that this was not voluntary manslaughter, there was malice involved, so we knew that it was at least second-degree murder. I think I told you earlier that it took us the second day to get to first-degree murder we got to second-degree murder on the first day. Some of us were ready to say, “This is actually first-degree murder.”  At that point, you could see that not everybody was on the same page, and it was serious enough that we thought, “Let s sleep on it. Let s come back on Monday and we ll try to decide that.” And that s exactly what we did. I think we came back on a Monday and, kind of, threw a bunch of things onto the board. As I recall it, I think most of the jury thought that this was first-degree murder. We explained it the same way I explained to you earlier, but there was one gentleman who just couldn t get to first-degree murder because he kept saying, “He just snapped. He accused her of cheating and he snapped. That made him so angry that he snapped.” But to a lot of us, we said, “That s not normal or typical behavior. 1) There was no evidence that she was cheating. 2) It s not like he walked in on her having intercourse with another man right in front of his eyes. A lot of times, somebody would snap and kill their spouse because that s so shocking that did not happen. He was accusing her of cheating at a party. I think that in any other typical relationship, if you believe that your spouse, girlfriend, or anybody is cheating, you re not going to go and beat them up and murder them that s not typical behavior. So why are we going to give Rob, essentially, a pass for acting outside of typical human behavior and taking such an extreme measure because he was just so enraged by the thought of her even cheating?” So, that was our thought.  We said, “No, he didn t just snap, he didn t walk in, this is not what he called a crime of passion.” It took a while we all debated it for a while. Then, eventually, that juror realized and agreed that Rob didn t have to get on top of her and cut off her airway, he could have just left her there, she was no threat to him but he made that decision, he premeditated it it was quick premeditation he took that second act for 1-3 minutes and killed her. That s how we got to first degree. So, we sent a note to the judge from the deliberations room that we d reached a verdict. Then, at some point, we all waited there for a while. Then, we were all ushered back into the courtroom, we took our normal seats in the jury box I was back at number six. Then, the judge pulled the 3 verdicts the 2 assault charges and the murder out of the envelope and read it quietly to himself. Then, he put it back into the envelope, handed it to the court clerk, and she was actually the one who read the verdict aloud. I had no idea whether I was going to read the verdict as a jury foreman I had seen that before. I was going to do it if that was part of my job I would do it and get the job done but I was very anxious and nervous to actually read it because all eyes would be on me and that would be a very heavy thing. I was very relieved to see that it was actually the court clerk who was going to read the verdict aloud. She read it and there was essentially no reaction from Rob. Scott  What about his family? I assume he had some family members or friends with him. Did they have any kind of reaction? How did they behave? Jami  He didn’t really have any family there. For a couple of days, we saw a woman with big white-rimmed glasses and another woman sitting next to her who came for a couple of days I think that may have been his mother, but I can t say for sure but they were not there often. They were only there for, maybe, like, a couple of days. There was a gentleman who was there every single day. He sat at the back of the courtroom on Rob s side and we, the jury, never knew who this guy was. I had always thought that, maybe, he was part of the media I didn t know who he was. After we deliberated and were excused from the trial, we found out from the prosecutor who we found in the elevator on the way down, who happened to answer some of our questions, which was nice of her that was actually Rob’s stepfather and that he was in the courtroom every single day.  What happened was Rob had two daughters with a woman from years ago, and that woman actually did testify at trial on Rob s behalf he didn t have many people who testified on his behalf, but the mother of his children did testify for him. He had two daughters. I don t know if he and his baby s mother lost custody or gave up custody because both of them were on drugs and not living a lifestyle that was conducive or healthy for 2 children, so they did not have custody the custody was given to Rob’s stepfather at that time. So, that man who was in the courtroom had custody of Rob s children from a very young age. He moved them to Alaska and that s where he raised them until they became teenagers. I want to say that they re probably teenagers or, maybe, in their early 20s by now they’re probably teenagers by the time their father went on trial for murder. So, it was interesting that he had these 2 daughters, but he never really had custody of them from a young age it was his stepfather. The stepfather was there every single day because he wanted to know for certain whether Rob was guilty of what he had been accused of so that he could accurately explain to his daughters, what their father had done or not done. Interestingly, that man made contact with me after the trial. He got my email address and he emailed me it was a very tense moment, but he was actually very kind, open, and well-spoken in his email. He told me that the jury probably had come to the right conclusion, and that he didn’t condone what his stepson had done at all. I think his words were, “Rob is probably where he should be.”  Other than that, Rob did not have family or friends. Sitting on his side during court says a lot. I think that Rob had probably burned a lot of bridges in his life due to his substance abuse, his behavior, and whatever else that may have been going on. I think he burned a lot of bridges. Courtney did have family there and it was very, very difficult to see them. Her mother was there on a few occasions. After the autopsy or the crime scene photos were shown, she did not show up. According to the prosecutor, she had a mental breakdown and she was not able to bring herself to court for the sentencing. Where I was sitting on the juror box, I was the closest to the gallery. My seat was right on the edge of the left side of the jury box, so whoever was sitting in the gallery was right there next to me. When the autopsy and the crime scene photos were shown on the screen in the courtroom, just a few feet away from me were Courtney s mother and sisters. I don t remember any other moments when I started to cry because I always told myself, “You can t do that. It s not professional. It s not your tragedy. It s Courtney s family s tragedy to endure and you just can t do that.” I did that quietly and nobody probably knew, but that was one moment where I became emotional because I m a mother and I cannot imagine that being a moment that I would have to endure. Scott  You can t avoid empathizing with another mother not necessarily just a mother, but another person… Jami   A human who lost somebody they love, let alone your own child. So, that was very, very heavy. So, we convicted him of first-degree murder. I was not able to go to the sentencing hearing. By the way, the jury had nothing to do with sentencing we only decided on the verdict the judge was going to handle the sentencing and we knew that from the get-go. The judge said, “This is not a death penalty case. You are not going to decide on sentencing. You re going to decide on the verdict only,” which took some weight off of our shoulders. There was already enough to decide on a verdict, but I did follow up later and saw that the judge sentenced Rob to 28 years to life in prison. I believe he got 25 years for the murder charge and 3 years for the 2 assault charges. I think that the judge made a comment and said something like, “I don t know if you re a monster, but you re certainly a bully. You ve used your size and your whatever to inflict great harm on somebody.” Rob never issued any kind of apology. His statement said something like, “There s been a lot of lying during the trial and calling out of other witnesses who testified against him.” He also claimed, “Someday, I might be able to tell you what happened but, at this point, I don t remember.” So again, he claimed that he was probably drunk and didn’t remember killing her, which I think is not true. The only thing he said at the end was, “I apologize for all that s going on here.” He didn t say, “I apologize to Courtney s family. They ve lost someone.” nothing like that. I think his apology was more general, almost like, “I apologize for all the lying that s gone on here.” Who knows what he meant by that? It was just a very general apology, but nothing was directed toward the victim s family. Scott  So, if his stepfather was able to contact you, have you ever thought about what if Rob gets out of prison someday and contacts you? Jami  Yeah, I have absolutely thought about that. In fact, about two years ago, I got a random call that basically said, like, an inmate was trying to contact me from prison. I do know that there are scams that go around and do that. If you want to accept the call, you have to give a credit card. So, I don t think it was Rob, but it shook me and, sort of, like, triggered something in me to go, “Oh, my God. Is he trying to contact me?” I don t believe that. I think that s probably some sort of scam. I don t have any family or friends who are in prison, so I don t think anybody was trying to contact me. I think it was probably a scam, but it was scary. I will tell you something very, very strange that I still can t wrap my head around to this day. My husband and I own a landscape construction company and we operate our business out of, like, an office warehouse in the LA area. One day, I went out to go get the mail at our office as I do every day, I saw this magazine in there which said something about tattoos and, instantly, I thought of Rob Arvizu I don t know why. This was, like, a couple of years after I sat on the trial. They talked so much about Rob being into tattoos. He was tatted from head to toe. Like, he had tattoos on his hands, he had tattoos, I think, on the back of his head his head was shaved bald. He had a very interesting look. I just associated tattoos with Rob. So, I went to get the mail, saw this magazine, saw the edge of it, and it said something about tattoos. Then, I was like, “Oh, I had a flash thought about Rob Arvizu.” I pulled the magazine out and it was addressed to “Arvizu Ink.” I know for a fact that Rob was a tattoo artist and he would give people tattoos at his apartment. I believe he actually worked professionally at it and, maybe, had his own business doing tattoos. That s not a common last name that you run across all the time. So, it said “Arvizu Ink.” He was a tattoo artist. His last name is Arvizu. I was like, “This is his business. Why am I getting Rob Arvizu’s mail at my business?” Scott  Did it have that name but your address?  Jami Yes.  Scott That s weird. Yeah. Jami  I was baffled. My face turned white. I went in and told my husband. We were both trying to figure it out. I guess if I did a little more research, I could confirm I m almost positive that Rob had a business called “Arvizu Ink,” but I could be wrong. Maybe, this is a totally different Arvizu who had a tattoo company. It was a tattoo magazine I opened it up and it s all about tattoos. So, I was just completely baffled. So, what I did first was I contacted the previous owner of the building that we now own and asked him, “I have a random question for you. You can answer it or not, but did anybody named Robert Arvizu ever work for you before?” He immediately said, “No.” So I thought, “Okay. It would make sense if Rob worked in the building that we now own first and, maybe, that person got his mail sometimes.” So to be honest with you, I have no idea why I got that magazine. I can t confirm that it s actually for Rob Arvizu, but it said Arvizu Ink. To this day, it s just a weird, random, and spooky thing.  Scott   You have a true crime podcast yourself… Did this experience, kind of, prompt you to start doing that? I know you were already into true crime before, but did this, kind of, spurred that along? Jami  It definitely did. In fact, that s how Rob s stepdad got a hold of me I sort of told this story in the first episode of my podcast called Murderish. I had already been mulling over the idea of starting a podcast before the murder trial came, but I didn t know what kind. I knew it would probably be true crime because that s what I ve always been into. And I was an avid podcast listener. I had already been doing research to start a podcast, but had not taken any real steps to launch it. Then, I sat on this jury and thought, “This would be an interesting story to tell.” It s really what kicked me into high gear of launching Murderish. So yeah, the answer is, “Absolutely. This made me want to start a true crime podcast.” I always knew that this would be probably my first episode and somebody around town must have told Rob s friends and family about the podcast. So, his stepfather had listened to the podcast about me telling the story, kind of, from A-to-Z from a juror’s perspective. There was one thing that he said, “I do think that you told the story accurately based on what went down in the courtroom.” I thought that was nice because I truly wanted to not do any sensationalizing and just really tell a true factual story of this case. So, yeah, I had already planned to start a podcast, but I was like, “I m gonna do it now,” and I never looked back. It s been 4.5 years.  Scott   How many episodes do you have right now?  Jami  I just surpassed 100. I think I m currently writing episode 104. It s been a ride.  Scott  It s got to be when you re doing a true crime podcast. I ran into this sometimes on some of the stories I cover on my show. It s a real balance to tell the story to have the person tell the story in my case but not cross the line to shock and exploit what happened just for the shock of it. Do you ever find yourself, kind of, walking that line? Jami  Absolutely. I ve covered some cases where the child was a victim, and those are always the toughest. Sometimes, I went through spurts where I say, “I just really can t do any child cases right now. It s just so dark. I m a mom. Even if you re not a parent, it s just so hard when a helpless human being is murdered in such a tragic way and to add another layer when there s sexual assault involved, especially with a minor.” That is where I try to be very, very careful to not regurgitate detail-by-detail because I don t think it s necessary. You can say that it happened without getting into detail because you never know who might be listening. So, yeah, you do walk that fine line, for sure. I do like to tell a full-bodied 3D story so that people have all the important facts, but I always try to be careful to not cross that boundary that goes with any victim. There were some times when there are details that I gave on the show that make me cringe somebody died, their murder was just horrific but there s a way in which I think you can say it, tell it, highlight the victim, and make people see them as who they were an actual human being. I think, it s so easy to disassociate yourself and just listen to their story as a murder victim all the gory details of how they died and all of that. So, make sure that you can tell the details of who that person was and make them a real person in the listeners’ minds. Scott  Yeah. Well, for me I m sure I speak for my listeners as well if there s any one little glimmer of light in this story, it s that the dog survived. Jami  Yes, the dog did survive. That is probably the number one question I get asked after people listen to the episode I did on the case What happened to the dog? I want to say that the dog went to live with Courtney s Mom, I think I can t be certain. So, all these details were coming to me. Also, after this trial, one of Courtney’s sisters reached out to me her little sister. Interestingly, she was never in the courtroom because I believe her father would not allow her because it was just too heavy. I think she was, like, 9 years old at that time, and I understand that. She was extremely sweet. I think she did allow me to ask a few follow-up questions, but I want to say the dog ended up with one of Courtney s family members, if not her mom. So, the dog was okay. Again, it goes back to a helpless being being a victim in any way and that includes pets, children, and things like that. Scott  Well, how can people find your podcast? I know it s called Murderish. Where are you on the web? Where can people find you?  Jami  Yeah, they can find Murderish on my website murderish.com. I m also really big on Instagram I love doing fun Q A’s there. I ve started to do a lot of not a lot Instagram lives. You can find me on Instagram @murderishpodcast. I also have a really fun murderish Facebook discussion group. I have a Facebook page, which is fine, but I m really active in the discussion group. I guess if you just search for “Murderish podcast discussion group”, you ll find it. It’s got just under 3,000 members and it s not, like, so dramatic. I ve been in some other groups and they re super-dramatic there s a lot of drama and a lot of fighting. We really don t have that in my group, which I m really lucky. We have a lot of fun. We talk about murder cases and just share different memes and things like that.  Scott  All right. Well, that s where people can go to get involved with Murderish. Jami, thanks for sharing the stories. Super interesting. I ve always wanted to be on a jury myself, but I ve never gotten the notice. I don t know if it s because I m not registered as one of the two main parties or because I have family in law enforcement either way, I probably would be disqualified. So, I think that kind of rules me out a little bit, but it’s really interesting to hear how it all works. Jami  Thank you. I m so happy to be on your podcast. I love your podcast. By the way. It s such an interesting format. There are so many crazy stories that have been told on your show that almost don t seem real. Scott You can see pictures of Rob and Courtney, and Jami of course, in the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/262. I didn’t get to do an update conversation with Jami this time – but she was already on the podcast for a different Flashback conversation, when she told the story of the man who followed her home when she was a teenager. And we did do an update for that one – it’s episode 193 titled “Jami was followed home”. I wanted to let you know about something that happened recently. You probably already know that there’s a Facebook group for What Was That Like listeners. You can join for free at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook and we have almost 10k people in that group.  Well, a group of that size tends to be very attractive for advertisers.  And I had a major brand contact me, and they said, hey – we’d like to put some ads for our product in your Facebook group. Really this would be me, as the owner of the group, creating posts talking about this product and giving a promo code or something, and I would get paid for that. Well, when that offer came to me, I didn’t have to spend any time thinking about it. The answer was no. I’m not going to have ads in the podcast Facebook group. We all get bombarded with advertising every day, and I like to think of the FB group as a place where you don’t have to deal with that. It’s the same reason we don’t discuss politics there. Let’s just keep it a nice place where we can have interesting discussions. So, you won’t be seeing me doing any advertising posts in that group. And if you’re wondering what we talk about in that group, our question this past Tuesday was: What’s something you never told your parents? So just make sure your parents aren’t in the group, and come on over and tell us your big childhood secret! Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And here we are again – it’s Listener Story time. If you have a story that you can tell in about 5-10 minutes, record it on your phone and email it to me – [email protected] – and you just might hear it right here on the podcast. This listener talks about a failed hunting trip that wasn’t a complete loss. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener story) When I was in my early 20s, I went hunting with my dad. We were close to the Rocky Mountains and we had gotten a special draw to get a moose, and it was a bull that we were after. We got our tag and we decided to take off that day and park our camper and everything and, hopefully, bag a moose and fill our freezer. So we parked our trailer. We were by the, I d say, we called it the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, and it was a zone that we had to be beside in order to get the moose. My dad and I used to hunt all the time. Every fall time, we would hunt. Since he passed away, I haven t hunted since, but this story is kind of cool. We decided, after we set up camp and everything, that we would take the truck and start following some of the cut lines and just start tracking a little bit in the snow to see where the moose were going to bed down for the night. So we left our guns and we just had the truck going it was dark and we were allowed to drive around at night, of course and just check for tracks and see where the moose were going to bed down for the night. So we made our plan for the night and then we came back to camp, and we bedded down for the night. In the morning, we grabbed coffee and sandwiches, and away we went. We drove and drove. Of course, we didn t see anything. We ate all the sandwiches. We drank most of the coffee.  We decided to stop and take a little bit of a break. I walked over in the middle of nowhere, in the snow beside a tree to relieve myself. As I was doing that, I m looking at all the hills and the tree line and saying, Where the heck are these moose at? As I was doing that, I looked down and I m exposing a watch that was in the snow beside a tree. I went, Whoa. I moved over a little bit, finished relieving myself. Of course, I had to– my glove, and I grabbed this watch and shook it in the snow and cleaned it off and didn t think anything of it. I was completely naive to what the watch was or what it was worth. Showed my dad, and he didn t think much of it either. He said, Oh, you got lucky. Probably doesn t work. So I kept it.  When we got home from our hunting trip which we struck out and we never did get a moose, I decided to put this watch beside the heat register, and I forgot all about it. And I went, Oh yeah, that damn watch. So I looked at it and it had actually dried out. You could actually see what kind of a watch it was. Said self-winding watch, so I gave it a little shake and set the time, and away it went.  That watch, I wore it day in and day out for quite a while. I was doing construction work. I was doing mechanics work. I was doing all kinds of stuff. It was getting dirty. I hit it a million times. I dropped it on the concrete. I didn t think much of it. It was just a watch to me. It was a heavy watch, so there were times where I didn t wear it, and I forgot all about it. I put it in a drawer and oh, I would say maybe five years went by and I didn t think much of it.  Then, I went, Oh yeah, that watch. So I tried to self-wind it again, set the time, and I noticed that it was loose – like, the face of the watch was loose. So I said, I ll see if somebody can fix this. So there was only one place in town that would fix it. It was a very expensive place, so I thought, Okay, well, this must be an expensive watch. I don t know.   The guy phoned me after and he said, Hey, I ve repaired your watch. Come on down. So I went down. He said, Yeah, that ll be 400 bucks. And I went, $400? I said, Well, I m just a punk kid. I can t afford that. He goes, Well, this is a very expensive watch, and I put a new crystal in it and fixed everything up. Here you go.   I went, Well, I can t afford 400 bucks. So he says, Well, I ll tell you what. I collect these watches, and I really like your watch. Would you be interested in an offer? And I said, Okay. I had no idea. He offered me enough money that I sat down and went, Holy shit. I said, Well, I ll tell you what. I ve been with this gal for about 10 years, I think it was. Would you be interested in giving me some wedding bands? Because I m going to ask this gal to marry me, and I ll give you a trade for these wedding bands and a little bit of cash. And he goes, Done.   So he calls me in, and we go into his office, and he opens up this drawer, and he s got all these watches and everything, and sure as heck, he loved to put it right with his collection. He cut me a check, and I picked out the most beautiful rings for my wife and I. I ended up getting these rings and asked her to marry me, and that was 30 years ago.  I thought that was the coolest thing to be able to find a watch in the middle of absolutely nowhere and be able to get a check written for me as well as buying wedding rings for my wife and myself. We got married, and we are still married today, and we still talk about that watch. I guess the best part of all, only cost me a hunting trip. When you find something like that and worth that much money, I m sorry for somebody s loss, but it was my gain

I’ve never had an injury that was serious enough to be what I would think of as “life changing” but some people have. It’s a pretty deep idea to think about. I came across this post online recently. Here’s what this woman wrote: I experienced a life changing injury 6 months ago, which has left me very physically disabled and in excruciating pain 24/7. I am waiting for scans in the next month, after being refused medical care in the country where I was injured, but it is likely there is very little to be done to fix this. I am also trying physical therapy to get better, but so far with no results and just increased pain. The situation is making me severely depressed, and I really need to find some acceptance for what happened, and my life moving forward. I am in therapy already for some other stuff, but not able to come to acceptance for this injury yet. I m stuck feeling despair and anger, and like I m only a burden for the people around me, including my partner. I can t work, nor participate in fun activities that requires anything other than sitting, and even that I cannot do for long. I can t go for walks, sex is painful, almost all my hobbies are no longer possible. I barely sleep because of the pain, so I m always sleep deprived as well. I have to be medicated for pain through the day and night to even be able to talk or move. If I try to skip a day, I cannot function. I really would like to feel that life is worth living even with chronic severe pain and physical disabilities I never imagined having to deal with. I spend so much energy and tears on feeling upset about the situation, and it s interfering with me at least feeling as okay as I possibly can. I need to find radical acceptance, but I feel so heart broken when I try. I don t know what to do. I can just hear the despair in her words. She wrote that in an online forum 5 years ago, so I would love to know how she’s doing today. But I don’t. My guest today is Patrick, and he knows what it’s like to have an accident that results in a life-changing injury. He was young and athletic, and he loved to go surfing and run ultramarathons. But then one day he broke his neck, and he had no idea what the rest of his life was going to look like. Patrick in the hospital after the surfing accident Patrick and John at the finish line of the Moab 240 mile ultramarathon If you’d like to contact Patrick Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bodiezepha415/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/patrick.yalon Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/261 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): I’ve never had an injury that was serious enough to be what I would think of as “life changing” but some people have. It’s a pretty deep idea to think about. I came across this post online recently. Here’s what this woman wrote: I experienced a life changing injury 6 months ago, which has left me very physically disabled and in excruciating pain 24/7. I am waiting for scans in the next month, after being refused medical care in the country where I was injured, but it is likely there is very little to be done to fix this. I am also trying physical therapy to get better, but so far with no results and just increased pain. The situation is making me severely depressed, and I really need to find some acceptance for what happened, and my life moving forward. I am in therapy already for some other stuff, but not able to come to acceptance for this injury yet. I m stuck feeling despair and anger, and like I m only a burden for the people around me, including my partner. I can t work, nor participate in fun activities that requires anything other than sitting, and even that I cannot do for long. I can t go for walks, sex is painful, almost all my hobbies are no longer possible. I barely sleep because of the pain, so I m always sleep deprived as well. I have to be medicated for pain through the day and night to even be able to talk or move. If I try to skip a day, I cannot function. I really would like to feel that life is worth living even with chronic severe pain and physical disabilities I never imagined having to deal with. I spend so much energy and tears on feeling upset about the situation, and it s interfering with me at least feeling as okay as I possibly can. I need to find radical acceptance, but I feel so heart broken when I try. I don t know what to do. I can just hear the despair in her words. She wrote that in an online forum 5 years ago, so I would love to know how she’s doing today. But I don’t. My guest today is Patrick, and he knows what it’s like to have an accident that results in a life-changing injury. He was young and athletic, and he loved to go surfing and run ultramarathons. But then one day he broke his neck, and he had no idea what the rest of his life was going to look like. Scott For people who have never been to Ocean Beach in San Francisco, can you describe what that s like?  Patrick Ocean Beach is in its own category, I would say, in terms of just beaches that are just kind of gnarly. It s cold, it s unforgiving, it can pound you down. The undertow is pretty ruthless. Even paddling out there on a small day is difficult. Just endless duck-dives, ice cream headaches from the cold, wet water. Yeah, it is just gnarly. Northern California beaches are kind of typically a little harder, just have a little more grit to them than Southern California beaches, and Ocean Beach definitely being at the top of that list here. Scott The way you describe it, I m wondering what attracts you to go to a beach like that? I mean, obviously it was the water.  Patrick Yeah. Well, I grew up in San Francisco. I grew up pretty close to it in the Sunset District out here in San Francisco, which is right next to Ocean Beach. So I just started surfing there as a teenager, following suit with friends who were doing it, and it was kind of just baptism by fire just going out there. Having friends not really helped me but being there with me, and it was just kind of learning on your own. It s either you learn and adapt or you just kind of wash out. People end up just quitting if it s not for them. And yeah, Ocean Beach– probably not recommended for a person learning how to surf. You kind of want to start somewhere else that s a little more mellow. But for me, I felt like it really helped shape me as a surfer moving forward because I felt like if I could surf there, I could surf most places. Scott When this happened, how far did you live from Ocean Beach?  Patrick Two blocks. I m on 47th Avenue, and Ocean Beach is two blocks down.  Scott So obviously this is a place that, even last minute – you got an hour – you could go surfing at the beach.  Patrick Yep.  Scott How often have you seen other surfers get in trouble or have an accident? Patrick I mean, we d heard stories. I ve been out there at times when there have been emergency services that have shown up for people in need. I ve seen people get pulled into the beach, just sometimes the people that get in over their head that don t really know what they re doing so much out there or–  Scott When you say that, do you mean “in over their head” literally in the water or they re past their experience level?  Patrick Well, I think what I mean by that is a lot of people– it s a sunny day and it can be kind of deceiving, and people are like, Oh, I can go out there. It s not just surfing. Every year, there ll be, like, swimmers that get swept away. If it s a really hot day inlands, people come out here to hang out at the beach. It looks inviting but it s not. The undertow can just grab you away. In terms of surfing, I mean, I ve seen people– their leashes snap on bigger days and have to swim in, which happened to me. It s a pretty frightening experience in its own right.  Scott I did a quick Google search earlier, and it s important to note that the water is treacherous with dangerous rip currents.  Patrick Yep.  Scott Can you describe a rip current and how is this dangerous?  Patrick So if you get caught in a rip, it can just pull you out further and further and you have to get out of this. How I was always taught to get out of it is you swim diagonally, not just straight back fighting against it. You got to swim diagonally to get out of it and swim out that way. But you can get caught in a rip current that ll just all of a sudden, you just look back and you re like, Whoa, I m already a couple hundred yards offshore here. So yeah, it can get scary if you re not careful about it or if you just get caught in one out of nowhere. Especially if you re a little inexperienced or you re not as confident, it can be a scary situation, for sure.  Scott Yeah. And the instinct, I m sure, would be to try to just swim directly back to shore. Patrick Yeah.  Scott But then you re just fighting it and you re not going to get anywhere except worn out.  Patrick Yeah, exactly.  Scott That s not the way to go.  Patrick Right.  Scott Okay. Well, let s talk about that day. Who were you with?  Patrick I went out with a friend who lives on my block, a friend I d had for a while that I d met in college. His name is John. I d just ridden my bike back from work, and he was in front of his house getting ready, and we just talked about it. He s like, Feel like going for a surf? And I was just like, Yeah, let s go. We went and took a look at it. It didn t look like anything special. It was a very gray, windswept, overcast day, foggy in San Francisco, and we just decided to go for it. We call it a maintenance session when you haven t been out in a little while, just kind of get a little exercise, have some fun, and just keep your skills sharp. So yeah, we just decided to go for it that day.  Scott And you didn t see anything unusual about the water or the waves or anything? Patrick Looking back, the only thing that I knew right away when I stepped in that was unusual was that all the sandbars were really exposed. It was a low tide, and there were just tons of sandbars exposed, and I just remember thinking to myself that, Wow, I don t know if I ve ever seen quite this many sandbars exposed like this. So I was like, “This is a little sketchy, but then you just put it out of your mind, you don t think about it, you just go.  Scott Yeah, because they re always there, right? You just don t see them.  Patrick Yeah.  Scott Take us through what happened.  Patrick Yeah. So like I said, John and I walked out there, looked at it, went for it. Potentially had been out there maybe half an hour or so. I remember going into a right, meaning taking a right down the face of the wave, popped up, was on it, and then the next thing I remember is just my board coming to an abrupt stop, and I just flew off the board, and I went headfirst into a sandbar. Kind of came to and everything was black. My face was out in the water and I just remember thinking to myself like, Whoa, what, just happened here? And thinking All right. Well, you just wiped off your board, so swim. Get up. And right when I told myself to swim, I just quickly came to the realization that I was just completely paralyzed, I couldn t move. My brain is telling my body to swim, and it just wasn t working. So the thoughts that were just permeating through my head was just, “Swim. You can do this. Swim.” Nothing again. Scott Were you hearing anything at this time?  Patrick Nothing except the voice inside my own head. Yeah. Scott Okay. Because you were face down in the water, right?  Patrick Yeah, I heard some ringing, but I was just face down in the water.  Scott Just roughly how deep was the water at that spot?  Patrick I don t even– maybe a couple feet. Maybe three feet or something, four feet.  Scott If you hit a sandbar, obviously that s the ground. Patrick Yeah.  Scott And did you have any orientation as to which way was up or down or anything?  Patrick I think I knew what was going on. I knew that I was just floating face down. It was just a matter of getting myself to move, getting a breath, and– it s hard to describe when your brain is telling you to do something and your body s not responding at all. I just knew I was going to drown at that point. I remember thinking, I hope John saw me, and then, quickly, I put that out of my head because I was like, There s no way. I know how it goes to paddle out with someone out there, and you lose each other quickly from the riptide taking you away or the fog just separating you. So I was like, There s no way he saw me. So once I realized I couldn t swim at all, I was like, All right. Well, you re a paraplegic. You can t really live the rest of your life like this anyways. So I remember just saying goodbye to my family, being really scared about where I was going, what s going to happen, and I just remember that I really wanted to live at that point and I felt like it wasn t fair. I was like, This doesn t happen to you. This happens to other people. You read about this, you hear about it, and when it s happening to you in real life, it just obviously hits a little differently.  Scott You had also mentioned that when you realized you might be dying, there was a split second where you felt a sense of relief. What was that about?  Patrick I think, before the accident happened, I had a lot of dark days where I d come out of a long relationship, and the ending was pretty tumultuous, and I felt like a lot of blame, a lot of guilt, and consistently just talking negative to myself in my head, and just believing that there was kind of no way out of it, and I was just in a funk long– just straight depression from it. So, when this happened, I remember just thinking to myself for a sec, I was like, Well, maybe this is it, and maybe this isn t so bad. You can just kind of wash away at this point.” And then I remember it s all in one thing. It s kind of crazy how I remember everything just right away. I was just like, No, this shouldn t be how it ends. I remember in that moment thinking about how much I wanted to live, and I think that really stays with me just remembering in that moment what that feeling was like, that when you were faced with your own mortality, you actually did want to live. There was no embracing death there. It was really me just realizing that s foolish talk, and you re meant to be here, not to, die at this time. Scott Are you able to summon that feeling again, like maybe when you get discouraged about day-to-day events or stuff like that? Patrick Yeah, I would say so. I think what this accident has done for me is change my perspective immensely on a lot of different things. I don t get too upset about one thing or the other, and I try to focus on what s important in my life. If I do have some things pop up like some stuff that ll kind of put me in a funk, I try to remember that stuff and just try to remember what that feeling was like. For me, I don t think I could ever go back to feeling as bad as I was before the accident, because it s just– I feel like I stayed here for a purpose, and I feel like it would be disrespectful to the universe in general for me not to embrace life and not to go full force from now on, because I have a second opportunity here, and most people don t get that second opportunity.  Scott Does it give you a feeling like, Wow, okay, I ve been given this second chance. Now I have to earn it ?  Patrick To an extent. I think what I need to be careful with is not putting too much pressure on myself. I know that there s a bunch of stuff that I still want to accomplish, there s a bunch of stuff I still want to do, but I think any of us, when we put too much pressure on ourselves, it cannot work out too well at times. That s how I got myself into trouble when I was younger and before– was essentially just expecting too much of myself and just putting too much on myself. Then, when things didn t go that way, it was a lot of negative self-talk, a lot of me just being like, You did it again. You re not going to be happy. You don t deserve this. And I think, now, I am just learning to be more gentle with myself. I know there s a lot of things that I want to pursue. There s tons of things that I know that I m capable of that I want to accomplish, but just remembering at the same time just to be more kind and more gentle to myself. Scott Yeah. Self-talk is really important, for sure.  Patrick Very.  Scott You re face down in the water. What do you remember next after that?  Patrick I remember I kind of made a last-ditch effort to tell myself, Turn your neck and get a breath. Turn your neck and get a breath. Just try one. And I tried, and I just remember again, Okay, no, it s not going to happen. And then starting to think, Okay, well, here it goes, and just being like, Where am I going to go? And being kind of scared. Then, all of a sudden, I was just kind of embraced by a really bright white light. It felt very peaceful. It felt very loving. The next thing that I knew, I was sucked out of my body, like at an incredible rate of speed, just upwards. That was essentially it.  After that, when I woke up on the beach, I was just surrounded by a bunch of people, and just a lot of stuff going on. I could hear He s up, and What s his pulse? Just all the medical people speaking. And I was just kind of Where am I? Where am I? I remember seeing John out of the corner of my eye, and he was just standing there kind of looking like a ghost. I looked and I was like, John, did you give me CPR? And he was just kind of staring at me and nodding his head a little bit, but you could tell he was just really shook up. John I remember paddling back out after catching a wave, and getting out to the lineup, and Pat wasn t there. No one else was out surfing with us.  Scott This is Patrick s friend, John.  John I was just confused as to where he was, kind of looking around. It was super foggy. You couldn t even see the beach from where we were. I thought something could be wrong, but I was also like, Nah, nothing s wrong. You always kind of have those feelings and then, of course, everything s fine. We had only been out 15 minutes or so, and it wasn t really a big consequential day or anything. It was just a little eerie because of the fog. I was trying to catch another wave, but also just kind of scanning around, looking for where he could be.  Eventually, I don t know how many minutes went by, but it was at least a couple minutes, whatever, before I realized his board was bobbing up and down, I don t know, 50 yards away from me towards the beach. I didn t see him at first, so I just was like, All right, should probably go check that out. I started paddling over, and it wasn t very long before him face down in the water, floating next to the board. My first thought was, “He s dead. This is kind of going to fuck with you for the rest of your life, but maybe there s a chance to save him, so paddle as hard as you can. You only get one shot at this, so don t screw it up.”  Paddled over. It was like slow motion. Took forever to get there. Was probably paddling as hard as I could. I remember having the thought, “Of course, move as fast as you can, but kind of smooth as fast, as they say. You don t want to completely exhaust yourself and then not be able to get him in after getting to him or something like that.” Eventually, I got to him, flipped him over, and he was totally blue in the face, like a Smurf, foaming at the mouth, not breathing. I was like, Oh man, this is not good.   It was shallow enough that I could stand on the bottom. I don t know, it was belly button deep or something, maybe a little higher. So, I could drag him in a good way. But as it gets shallower, it gets heavier with less buoyancy. I was able to get him up on my chest kind of with my hands behind his neck, and walk backwards towards the beach. We were still a good way out. Even though it was kind of shallow, there were sandbars all the way out.  The whole thing in my mind, “Get him to the beach, do CPR.” That s it. I had some other thoughts probably racing through my mind about not getting to him fast enough and, “This is partially your fault or whatever, but you can compartmentalize those thoughts for now and worry about that later. Just try and save him.” As I got closer, I could see a fisherman fishing from the shore, and I remember screaming at him, but he couldn t hear me. I couldn t get his attention, so I was like, Don t waste your energy screaming. Just get him in.   Another 10-15 feet, I looked over again and I was screaming again, and he saw me. So the fisherman jumped into action, ran over. Somehow, another couple of people noticed the commotion and helped. We helped get him in the last 30 feet onto the sand. Someone else started giving him CPR at first, but the person didn t know how to give CPR, so I took over and started doing compressions and mouth-to-mouth, and it was pretty quick before that first breath came during the first round of compressions – maybe the second – and it s like that snorty, they call it agonal breathing, I think. Also not pretty. It s like a really messed up choking sound was his first breath. Just kept on giving him CPR. Kind of turned him on his side. He s spitting out water.   Someone had the paramedics on the phone with what to do. They were just like, Keep on giving him CPR. I just kept on giving him CPR until his breath became more normal and almost like a normal breath. He was still unconscious but, about the same time I saw the paramedics running down the sand dune, he was totally breathing. I was asking the other people around Is he breathing okay? Should I keep going? Everyone s like, Yeah, I think he s okay. I think he s breathing normal. And, yeah, and once the paramedics got there, I just kind of stepped aside and sat down on the ground and tried to collect myself. They put him in the back of the ambulance and, eventually, I was just asking the paramedics like, Oh, is he going to be all right? Is he going to be all right? Eventually, someone was like, Yeah, I think he s going to be all right, man. You want to talk to him? I was totally shocked. I m like, Talk? He s talking? In the condition I saw him, I was like, He s going to be maybe never waking up or not able to function mentally ever again. So I was just shocked he was able to talk.  Went over to the ambulance, and we kind of had a quick conversation. He s just shaking his head like, I m sorry, man. I m like, Don t be sorry. Then I was walking back through the neighborhood and some guy came up to me, he saw me holding both boards. The guy was walking with a beer, and he s like, Man, what happened? I told him, I was like, Dude, my buddy just fucking drowned. I just dragged him out of the water and gave him CPR. He went to the hospital. The guy s just like, Holy shit. And he took his beer, he s like, Here, you need this more than I do. So yeah, we chugged a beer after that and then went to the hospital to see Pat. Patrick Yeah, I was taken from the beach to the hospital via ambulance, and then the next couple days were just a lot of MRIs, tests. I remember when I got to the ER, I was in just an immense amount of pain on my upper body. The nerve damage was, like, crazy. It was, like, just burning, nuts. Then, my right arm was locked up – couldn t really move. My right hand was locked into a claw – I couldn t move it at all – and my legs weren t working. So it was like my upper body I could move, and my left arm and left hand I could move, but everything else wasn t.  We decided to go forth with an operation. I had a surgeon essentially talk to me and give me my options, and he s like, “If you get this surgery, we believe that 70% chance that you can recover over time. You re young, you re fit, you re healthy. So, we believe, with the right amount of time, discipline and the right mindset, you can be successful and you could potentially walk again after this. So I remember just saying, Let s go. And I got a spinal fusion. They went in through my trachea in the front and my spine in the back, fused my C3 through C5, and put a titanium rod in there. From there, I got taken to a live-in rehab facility for a few weeks where I d learn how to do everything again.  Scott What was your actual injury?  Patrick Broken neck and compacted spinal cord.  Scott Usually you hear a broken neck, that is almost certainly people don t survive that.  Patrick Right, yeah. Very fortunate. Scott That s got to be so scary. I mean, all your life, your hands have been right in front of you. You can move them when you want to and you don t even think about it but, now, you look at your hand and it s not moving.  Patrick Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the most terrifying thing about everything was just – in my mind – being like, Who am I? What is my identity now? Am I going to be like this for the rest of my life? How am I going to work? I m never going to be an athlete again. My family s going to have to take care of me, so I m going to be a burden on other people.” All these different thoughts permeating through your mind. I remember them telling me how lucky I was that I was able to survive and come back, and I just kind of remember lying there and it was hard to process that in the beginning. I was like, I don t know if I d use lucky as the word in this situation but it took me a little while to realize that they were right because I m still alive.  Scott Did you ever have thoughts comparing your situation with Christopher Reeve?  Patrick Yeah, I had people mention him to me. I don t think he was, like, going through my brain in the hospital. But yeah, I ve definitely explored his story a lot more. Scott Can you describe your recovery?  Patrick Pretty long and arduous. Humbling, especially in the beginning, relying on other people to take care of me. Was always pretty independent and didn t really rely on others to help me with a lot of things and try to do things on my own. Being in a hospital bed and having to be rolled over and sponge bath in the beginning, and then not being able to go to the bathroom by myself, not being able to leave my bed by myself, having to be in a wheelchair everywhere, it was demoralizing a little bit but also humbling at the same time.  I think they had me out here at the UCSF in San Francisco for– I think I was there for 8 or 9 days with the arrival, the surgery, and then the few days after the surgery, and then I got transported about 45 minutes north of San Francisco to a rehab facility that I stayed in for about three weeks. In there, it was just focusing on small tasks like putting on a shirt, putting on pants, tying a shoe, and small things like taking a few steps down the hallway in the beginning. So all these things that we take for granted throughout our lives, I didn t have them. It was just like getting stripped to absolutely nothing, and then just having to build yourself back up from there. There were days and nights where it was more difficult than others, but I was very fortunate that I had so many people in my life just show up for me and support me. I had so many people come to the hospital, so many people reached out. It was amazing and, without their support, it would ve been a lot more difficult. Scott I know you, by nature, are someone who enjoys taking on a big challenge. Is that how you saw this? I mean, when you first started, you said you could just move your hand a couple of centimeters.  Patrick Yeah.  Scott To some people, they would look at that and say, Man, that s terrible.   Patrick Yeah. Scott But to you, it was like, Wow, okay, if I can move it that much, maybe I can move it some more if I keep working at it. Was that how you saw it?  Patrick Yeah, it wasn t a fun challenge, let s say that. But yeah, I just remember being in the hospital bed and there were– my medical team was great. There were a lot of nurses, a lot of physical therapists that worked closely with me and really encouraged me. I remember a nurse just really working with me and being like, Let s move your toe, move your big toe. And nothing was happening, and then, eventually, one day, I just kept trying to do it and I could see it just move in the smallest little bit. And honestly, from then on, I looked at it and I was just amazed. I was like, It moved! It moved! And I was like, If I can move that toe that little bit, that means that I can move my foot. If I can move my foot, then I can move my leg. If I can move my leg, I can stand. If I can stand, I can walk. And if I can walk, I can eventually run. So it was just bit by bit and just breaking it down and just working harder each day than the previous day. How can I get better today? How can I improve?  I would say, after a week, I started making so much more progress, and a lot of the people there didn t really understand how I was making so much progress so quickly. A lot of the physical therapists that were working with me were just like, I can t believe how well you re doing. You re just responding so well. And for me, it was just having that grit, just telling myself, All right, I am not going to allow myself to be paralyzed right now. I m going to get better. Having a positive mentality, speaking highly to myself, being like, You re going to get through this. This is going to get better. And each day I just worked harder than the day before, and it just got better and better.  After about three weeks, they were able to– they reluctantly discharged me. They wanted to keep me longer, but I just couldn t do it anymore in the hospital. Like, all the beeping, all the noises every single night– it was tough to actually get rest there. There was a lot of depression, a lot of messed up people that were there, a lot of people that had given up, and I was really just doing my best to be a beacon of light when I was there, and talk to people on the side, and just be an inspiration for them. Look, if I can do this, you can do it.   Eventually, when it came time and we talked about an eventual release plan, I was able to get out of there way earlier than anticipated. I was able to go home to my parents and stay with them. They had a hospital bed in there, so we were able to set that up, and I could just focus on doing outpatient rehab and rehabbing myself while I was over there. Scott Yeah. I imagine that kind of became your full-time job around the clock – getting all your movement back.  Patrick Oh, for sure. No doubt.  Scott I know you mentioned it was kind of ironic because, from the hospital bed, you watched on TV the San Francisco Marathon and you were actually registered to run in that race. Patrick Yeah. I remember thinking that and I was just in bed and I m watching the news, and I was like, Oh, the marathon. I m supposed to run in that. And the nurse just kind of just gave me a pity look and just like, Sweetie, you can t walk. How are you going to run in that? And I was just like, Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. All right.   Scott A little technicality there.  Patrick Yeah.  Scott Okay. But you set a goal to do another ultra, and this is the Moab 240. Can you describe that race?  Patrick The Moab 240 is 240 miles through the desert and the mountains in Utah. I think there s an elevation gain in the whole thing of like 35,000 feet, something like that, and it s just well known as one of the most difficult ultramarathons in the world. I had applied for it before the accident, so I had been training for it. The accident happened about three months to the day of that race. So I remember once I was able to start moving and going, that race started coming back into my mind, and I was just like, Why can t I do that race? I can do this. I d talk about it at the hospital a lot to anyone that would listen. I d be like, I m going to run this Moab 240 race. And everyone s just Yeah, okay, sure. Maybe we should check your brain scans again, or, Let s focus on going to the bathroom by yourself or walking down the hallway before you talk about running 240 miles. Nobody believed that I would be able to do that. I mean, it was my North Star, that was what really helped me get better – just focusing on that. Every day it was like, Okay, what can I do to improve myself? and What can I do to get better so that I can run that race?   It was a long road. When I got released from the hospital, I lost about 50 pounds. I was down to about 146 pounds coming out of the hospital, and taking a walk around the block was still difficult. So it was a long road, but I left it up until about maybe 3 weeks before the race before I made the decision – two weeks before the race – and then I just was like, You know what? I m going to do it. Forget it. And for me, getting out there, I had to put things into perspective. I was like, “You re already doing something amazing by getting out here. Whether you do 5 miles, 20 miles, or you finish the thing, I got to be proud of myself and give myself credit for getting there because it s just a miracle in its own right that I was able to get out there and be able to start.” Scott Yeah, from the day of the accident to the race day was only like three months. Right?  Patrick Yeah. Three months, yeah.  Scott So you were paralyzed three months earlier, and now you re at the starting line of a 240-mile race.  Patrick Yeah, exactly. I mean, it s pretty crazy when you hear it out loud, right? Scott How did that race go?  Patrick I was able to do 144 miles before my body just completely gave out.  Scott Well, you had lost weight and lost fitness, right?  Patrick Oh, yeah.  Scott I mean, when you re training for any kind of long race like that, typically, you train and then you taper. You don t really exercise the last week or two maybe.  Patrick Yeah.  Scott You had a three-month taper. Nobody would build that into their training plan.  Patrick Right. I mean, not ideal, but I was just proud of myself for getting there. I was actually pretty dejected when I had to give up. Scott But 144 miles– Patrick Yeah, I had to give myself some credit. My friend was there with me and, at mile 144, he met me at an aid station. I had a really bad night and I was just in so much pain. He just looked at me and was like, Pat, you got nothing left to prove right now. If you need to throw it in, throw it in.” I was crying and I was just like, All right, let s just go because I had made a promise to my family before I went there. I know the difference between good pain and bad pain. Good pain being hard work that you can feel makes you better, that you can push through. Bad pain being like, If I keep doing this, I m going to do something detrimental and irreversible. I knew I was in a precarious place with the state of my spine and everything going out there, so I was already pushing my limits way beyond. I was, like, above the limits that I was supposed to go, but I had to remember just to reel myself in a bit and not push myself to the point where I would do something that would hinder my recovery. Scott It was a smart decision.  Patrick I think so.  Scott I know it s tough to make a decision like that in the moment-  Patrick Yeah, absolutely. Scott I mean, you still had almost 100 miles left to go and wouldn t have made it.  Patrick I m not sure I could ve made it, no.  Scott But you ran that race again the next year. Patrick I did, yeah. So I got back in and– man, just like a euphoric feeling. It was like it was written in the stars. It was meant to be. Remember getting the email acceptance. I was, like, doing the hike and then I got that email, and I was just like, Oh my God. I started smiling and I was just so happy, and I was like, This has to be destiny. Then, after a minute or two of thinking about that, I just flipped and I was like, Ah, damn. Now I got to do this again. because I was like, I remember what this entails. Now I know what it is like and I know how difficult this is for someone that s trained all year long for it, let alone someone that was in my situation. But, even if you re putting in all the work and doing everything right, 240 miles is 240 miles. Anything that s multi-day, multiple nights is just a whole different animal, and it s as much as preparing for it from a physical standpoint as preparing for the race itself, just all of the different– the aid stations, your sleep, all the logistics about it and how you re going to tackle this thing. I know what it entails and these things are just a whole different animal. They re insane.  Scott And how did that race go?  Patrick I was doing really well up until mile 65 or so. There was a lot of rain during the race, like insane amounts of rain, and it caused a lot of problems with mud, wet shoes, and wet clothes. I had to go through this river channel one time that was really soaking my feet up. So at mile 65, I stopped at an aid station. My feet were really jacked up, and then my legs were kind of giving out.  Scott That s pretty early in the race to be in that kind of trouble.  Patrick Yeah, I was just hitting a wall like a lot of people do. It s just how you respond to it. So I went from being, like, in the top 25 to really dropping down. But I remember the next section just being really difficult because it was all uphill from there. But at the top of that, someone laid me down with a massage gun and really stretched me out and just gave me my legs back, and I was like, Thank goodness. So I was able to keep going. There were some sections that were just insane with the rain, going straight uphill, just like slipping down hills in the mud. Going downhill was difficult in the mud. It was all crazy.  Scott I know people are hearing this right now thinking, Why would anyone want to do this? But it s something that only ultra-runners kind of know.  Patrick I m not sure how to describe it completely. It s just one of those things, like I always enjoy pushing myself and seeing where my limits are at. When you go through these experiences, on the other side of the struggle is the beauty. If you can finish one of these things, just coming out on the other side of something that is so immensely difficult, you just learn so much through the entire process and on the other side of it, it s just euphoric. You just feel amazing. It s an accomplishment. Scott I ve seen a lot of tears at finish lines at races like this. It s just emotionally overwhelming.  Patrick For sure. When you ve given everything, you re just exhausted beyond the point of rationality, you give everything inside you to this, and when you finish, you re just, like, absolutely overcome with emotion.  Scott How long did it take you?  Patrick Oh, man. It took me like 114 hours, something like that because I was struggling a bit towards the end, but I did it. I still have a lot of problems with my body from the accident, a lot of nerve pain, and I don t move quite the same as I used to. Sometimes, I forget that and then I ll just keep going and, during this race, it caught up to me again. I got to take this medication every eight hours in order to kind of keep functioning. I still got a lot of residual effects from it. So, even 15 months on from the accident, a lot of medical people were telling me that it is still incredibly early in the recovery process, and to be attempting something like this is still– 15 months is still a short window. But I was able to finish and beat the cutoff.  I think the cutoff was 117 hours, so I only beat the cutoff by a couple hours. It just felt amazing to be able to finish that. I think probably more than a third of the people that start don t finish that. So just to be able to do it and just know that everything came full circle from my accident to running it the first time to finishing it the second time and closing that chapter definitely– there aren t words to describe how I was feeling when I crossed that finish line.  My pacer for the last 40 miles of the race was my friend John, who pulled me from the water and gave me CPR. So I think for that whole portion, I felt like that was all destiny. It was just meant to be. John and I had so many conversations about life, death, the accident, what happened in that last 40 miles, that it just bonded us even closer than where we re at. So, just for us to be able to finish that race together, it s kind of like we started this journey together and now we re finishing that journey together. Scott Unbelievable.  Patrick Yeah.  Scott Now, you ve got another race coming up that s kind of special to you. What s that?  Patrick Yeah, so I m going to run the New York City Marathon in November, and I m raising funds for the Christopher and Dana Reeve Foundation, helping to find a cure for paralysis, helping fundraise for people that still are going through things like I went through or still having all these issues going on. It s just a very meaningful organization for me. Obviously, I feel very connected to it. I know the money goes to a very good place, and I just want to give back. I don t like the word obligation, but I feel like I have a calling to give back to the universe as a whole, to give back to especially people that have gone through things like I have or are still going through it. I just really want to help, so this is one way that I feel that I can. So just trying to raise as much money as possible and be out there with a really special group of people that are doing the same thing, and it has always been a dream to run that marathon too. Scott And the marathon s only 26.2 miles. That s like a fun run for you. Patrick Yeah, well, I m a nut. A few nights ago, I signed up for a 100-mile race two and a half weeks before that one, so we ll see what happens then.  Scott Okay. Well, that ll be a good training run for the marathon, right? Patrick Yeah, it ll be a good warm up,  Scott Do you have any fear of death now? Patrick I don t, so much. I have a fear of not accomplishing what I m supposed to be here for. I refuse to go back to living an empty hollow life that I don t believe is what I should be doing. I know that I m here for a reason, and I believe that I m here for a purpose. So am I afraid of dying? I m really not. I don t want to leave this earth until I accomplish everything that I m supposed to accomplish in this world. I couldn t tell you exactly what all of that is right now, but I think I m on the right path. I can just feel it in myself.  Scott It sounds like it.  Patrick Yeah.  Scott Why do you want to get this story out there? Patrick I think that s part of my purpose. That s part of what I m supposed to be here for. I m supposed to be a beacon of light, supposed to be an inspiration for others. I think that my story can really resonate, can really speak to others, and can inspire people that are not just going through something as massive as I went through, just people in day-to-day existence. I see a lot of struggle in society. I see a lot of people that are going through difficult times, people that are having a hard time living with themselves, living in this world today, and I just feel like I can really speak to a lot of people.  I think a lot of people will resonate– my message will resonate with them and people can be inspired. So that s my ultimate goal – just how many people can I really connect to to just make sure that they improve their lives, that they realize the value of what we have, not wasting our time, making the most of our lives because, in reality, we never know when our last moment is here. It s not like I went out surfing that day and I was like, All right, today s a good enough day as any to die. No. I just went out to surf and then moved on to something else because we always just think there s going to be this next thing, but we never know when  our last day is. So it s just embracing life, living with intention, being kind to people, being good, and just making sure that you love yourself. Scott All right. Well, yeah, I know people are going to hear this and be inspired. Patrick Appreciate that. Scott Thanks for sharing your story.  Patrick Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it Scott This is one of the greatest comeback stories I’ve ever heard. And coincidentally, the day this episode goes live, which is July 10, 2026, is the 2-year anniversary of Patrick’s accident. If you want to follow him, he’s on Facebook and Instagram, and we’ll have the links to his socials in the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/261. Our Facebook question this past Tuesday was: What’s your job, and what do you love about it? I know not everyone loves what they do for work, but a lot of people do. Myself included! Come on over and tell us what you love about what you do for a living. The Facebook group is at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  Now let’s get to the Listener Story. Every main episodes ends with a short, personal story sent in by a listener. I know you have a story, and we want to hear it! Just record a 5-10 minute story on your phone and email it to me – [email protected]. This listener talks about placing her child for adoption – and what happened in the years that followed. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener story) When I was 16, I put my daughter up for adoption. I had used a private adoption lawyer. At the time, birth parents and adoptive parents could not meet. Several months after the adoption was final, however, the law was changed, making it possible for birth parents to meet prospective adoptive parents. I contacted the adoption lawyer to see if there was any chance for a meeting after the fact, and she said that was not likely but she would ask, and she was wrong. Those lovely people agreed to meet me and, not only that, they brought a box full of photos and told me to take whatever I wanted. They were truly special people. We didn t keep in touch as that was not part of our original agreement, but each milestone I celebrated in my life like my marriage, buying my first home, having a child was all marked by a special gift of photos and letters from them and congratulations.  When their daughter – let s call her L – was about five years old, I received a call from the adoption lawyer asking if I wanted to speak at a home for unwed teen mothers. They were looking for a girl who had given up their child for adoption, one who had not, and a couple who had adopted a child. The lawyer that we had used was setting everything up, and she decided that she would like to present both sides of the adoption with me and the couple who had adopted my child. We were not able to be in the building at the same time but, after the recession, they left behind another thoughtful gift of some recent photos and a letter.  Fast-forward to their daughter s 18th birthday. They presented her with a letter I had written to her explaining my situation at the time of my pregnancy and her birth, which was not ideal, and why I had chosen to place her for adoption. I had hopes of hearing from her, but she decided to hold off for another year. But eventually, she got in touch by letter via the adoption lawyer. She was heading off to university in the fall, but she was going to enjoy a backpacking trip in Europe for six months before then, and she didn t want to worry about having to think about the outcome of meeting me and what would happen after that.  Well into her second year of university, she reached out to me via Facebook and asked if we could meet the next time she was in town. Not long afterwards, we met up at a local mall and we went for lunch and then strolled along the waterway in our city, and it was a wonderful few hours. She asked if we could keep in touch, and I told her that she would be the one to control where our relationship went. I didn t want to pressure her. A few months later, a musician who we both liked was appearing at an outdoor concert a few hours away. I had not told my daughter, who was four years old at the time, about her sister, and decided to plan an outing with the girls to the concert. My daughter had mentioned that she wished that she had a sister a few times. So, on the way to the concert, I said, Remember you told me you wanted a sister? I told her we were going to go meet her sister and spend the night at a concert and then a hotel. I told her the adoption story on the drive to get her sister in age-appropriate terms, and she was very excited. We had a great time together that weekend, and the girls got along very well. When we parted ways, it was decided that my husband, daughter, and I would head up to see L at the city where she was attending university. This took place a couple of months after the concert trip and we had another great weekend. L told my daughter that she would come to our house the next time she was in our city and she wanted to see her room and all her toys, and my daughter was again very excited. But unfortunately, another meeting was not to happen, not for another 19 years anyways. L explained that her brother, who was also adopted, had severe anxiety issues, and he was obsessing over the possibility of her leaving their family to join ours now that she had met up with us. They were extremely close, and she was worried sick about his reaction and didn t know how exactly to fit me and my little family into her already existing family. Her brother was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, so he had a lot of emotional issues, and she just didn t want to cause him any pain, so she severed ties.  Shortly before she contacted me again, I had a chance encounter with her parents, which was very funny. My husband and I own a business, and her father had left a voicemail looking for a quote for our services, and he didn t have a very common surname, so I was almost positive that I knew who I was calling before I called him, but he had no idea. So we discussed what services he required, and then I dropped the bomb about who I was, and I told him that if he wanted to pretend the call never happened, I d completely understand. But to the contrary, in his ever so classy style, he replied, Hell, no. All the more reason to have you come by. Can you stay for a coffee, or will it just be your husband coming? And of course, I wouldn t have missed that for the world, so I accompanied my husband and ended up chatting with them for a couple of hours while my husband did what he had to do, and then he took off, and I stuck around, and we got the job. Not long after that, L reached out to me by Facebook, and she sent me a sonogram photo, and that was a really wonderful surprise. I was hoping that she was having second thoughts about a reunion, but she was really just looking for medical information and wanted to know how my pregnancies were, et cetera. I was surprised when she told me they were planning a trip back to Canada the following summer. She was now living on the other side of the world. So, she said she would like me and my family to meet her child, and I told her that would be amazing, and I told her to keep in touch. So various photos were sent over the next few months, but conversation was kept at a minimum. As the following summer neared, she had not mentioned anything about meeting up again, so I asked her if that was still part of the plan. She said yes, but it seemed a little tentative, so I decided just to wait it out and see what happened.  But we ended up meeting at a park near her parents place and spent a lovely three hours together playing with her daughter on the swings and the slide and taking long walks and chatting about her life and her future plans. She was leaving for the cottage the following day, but we made a date to get together for dinner the next week. She said her partner was flying back home, but she and the baby would– they were sticking around for another few weeks, and they would meet up with me, my husband, and my daughter, and we d go for dinner. So I left that meeting on a real high, thinking how wonderful it was that she was sharing such a special part of her life with me, and I honestly thought that she felt differently now that she knew what it felt like to be a mother. But such was not the case. She sent me a very long Facebook message that very night explaining that she had found it emotionally too hard to interact with me and that she was severing ties again. So, I was stunned, quite honestly, and I was sad and extremely disappointed but, in the end, I made a decision in 1986 to give her a better life with a family who could provide everything that I could not, and she owed me nothing in return, and I really hope someday she feels differently, but if not, that s okay. My heart is very hurt, but knowing that she has had a great life with a beautiful child and absolutely wonderful parents gives me great peace.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What was the best surprise you ve ever arranged? Links for this episode: There actually is a podcast called Rebeccamendations (but the most recent episode was 3 years ago) https://open.spotify.com/show/2ZmgyCh0mRyql7crPTUevr Cowboy artist Ed Quigley https://www.askart.com/bio/Edward_Burns_Quigley/8752/Edward_Burns_Quigley Meredith’s organizer: https://a.co/d/026TUR4s Send a message to your future self: https://futureme.org Notion, the app Scott uses to organize everything https://www.notion.com/ Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

This is Scott, host of the show. On most episodes of What Was That Like, we talk to a regular person who has been through something extremely unusual – like a rattlesnake bite, a plane crash, a housefire rescue – we have more than 250 episodes with those kinds of stories. Today’s episode has several incredible stories, but it’s a little different. You may have heard me talk about the Raw Audio episodes. These are exclusive, bonus episodes that are only available to listeners who support the show. In the Raw Audio episodes, we typically have 3 stories of something crazy that happened, and we also hear the actual 911 call that took place during that incident. So today, I wanted to give you an idea of what these Raw Audio episodes sound like. And there’s another benefit of being a supporter – you get ALL of the What Was That Like episodes, including the Tuesday Question episodes, without any ads. Just pure content. After today’s stories, I’ll tell you how you can sign up to be a supporter, if you want to. And if not, that’s okay too. I hope you enjoy this episode. Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What makes you CRINGE every time you hear someone say it? Links for this episode: Voxer https://www.voxer.com/ Walmart Plus https://www.walmart.com/plus Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

Do you remember the TV show called Locked Up Abroad? It’s no longer in active production, but you can still see past seasons on some different platforms like Hulu and Apple TV. Every episode of the show was a true story of someone who was traveling outside their own country. Actually I seem to recall that most of the people were Americans traveling outside the US. And they would make a really bad decision to do something like trying to smuggle drugs or other illegal things into this other country. And of course they would get caught, and now they’re arrested and in jail in a place where they don’t really know the rules or procedures, and there might not even be anyone there who speaks English. It’s a true nightmare scenario. My guest today is Emily. She has personally been through that type of experience, and she told that story here on the podcast 5 years ago. She was the one who tried to get through airport security, while having bags of cocaine taped to her body. That was not a good day for Emily. But wait til you hear what she’s done with her life since then. Emily If you’d like to contact Emily, her website is https://ComeBackSnacks.com Comeback Catalyst: https://comebackcatalyst.ca Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/259 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Do you remember the TV show called Locked Up Abroad? It’s no longer in active production, but you can still see past seasons on some different platforms like Hulu and Apple TV. Every episode of the show was a true story of someone who was traveling outside their own country. Actually I seem to recall that most of the people were Americans traveling outside the US. And they would make a really bad decision to do something like trying to smuggle drugs or other illegal things into this other country. And of course they would get caught, and now they’re arrested and in jail in a place where they don’t really know the rules or procedures, and there might not even be anyone there who speaks English. It’s a true nightmare scenario. My guest today is Emily. She has personally been through that type of experience, and she told that story here on the podcast 5 years ago.  She was the one who tried to get through airport security, while having bags of cocaine taped to her body. That was not a good day for Emily. But wait til you hear what she’s done with her life since then. Scott This whole thing started when you were running a social media company. What is that and what did you do? Emily What our social media did out of Toronto, Canada, was create content for businesses to use in their online platforms. Whether that was photography, video, even creating captions for them to help them reach their audience through social media, namely, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Scott So those are the 3 primary ones, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Emily Yeah, and TikTok wasn’t out then so we didn’t have to worry about that. (laughs) Scott Okay, and this involved traveling all around the world? Emily Yep it did. I traveled a lot for my personal life but then by traveling personally I was also able to meet so many people abroad so I would get contacts in places where I would travel and then do the work from Canada. Scott I’ve seen a lot of your stories online in videos and things, and it seems like this whole thing kind of started when you met a client named Noah. Emily Yep. Scott How did you first connect with Noah? Emily I met Noah through my social media company. His business had sent us a message saying, “We’d really like you to help us build out our business.” I said, “Ok, well tell me some more about it.” He did and then I went out and met him at his place of work. That was one thing I loved to do was get out there and go and meet people face to face. I find it’s a huge asset and people don’t do it enough, they want to do everything from the computer. Now it’s a different circumstance, but that was something I loved to do because I felt it really personalized the relationship. His business was buying and selling cars and also detailing them and putting on really unique paint colors. It was a different kind of business but it was cool and I liked it. They even had some race cars. I’m a car person so I liked going out there and seeing the new cars that were getting work done. It was cool. He’s a really really nice guy. Scott You and Noah then developed past the client relationship? Emily Yeah we actually grew kind of close really fast. I was going through a personal challenge within my family and I was drinking a lot. He actually was one of my confidants in this and he knew that I was trying to- I don’t want to say get on a better path because I wasn’t on this road of criminality. I was drinking heavily and it was starting to affect my work and motivation. He actually told me that he had struggled in the past and that he had been sober, so I felt really close to him because of that. Living in Toronto I was a party girl. I still got my work done, I was highly functioning, but the people I would meet along the way would want me to go drink tequila with them and do drugs until 3 in the morning. So meeting someone like him, I thought he was someone of a little more substance than the people I was spending my time with at that time. Scott What made you think at some point that something was not quite right with him? Emily The first thing that wasn’t quite right was that he kept lying about his personal life. First he said he was separated, then he said he was divorced and then he said I couldn’t come to the business at certain times because his ex-wife was there. There were just too many mixed messages, but I kind of just put that aside. Then he started getting me all these presents that I never asked for. Don’t get me wrong I’m a girl and girls love presents, I mean everybody likes getting nice things from someone they are involved with. They were just things that I never really wanted. The first thing was like a sound system, and I lived in a tiny condo. I thought, “Okay, I already have my little condo-sized one, I don’t know why you got me this.” Then he got me dessert wine, which I never ever drink. In fact, I hated dessert wine. Then he also got me a Michael Kors watch, but there was no battery in it. So they were just very odd gifts to get. Scott Some guys just don’t know how to buy gifts, but it was more than that with him? Emily Yeah, like he also helped me walk my dog when I had to be places and he would lend me cars when I had car problems. Eventually I ended up buying a car from him. He said, “Oh I found this really awesome car and I’ll go in on it with you. Then we can fix it up and have it ready.” So I actually gave him the money but never got the car. There was always something going on, like a flat tire, or something with the engine, or the ex-wife would be at the shop and I couldn’t come. By this point it was really starting to annoy me and I was getting ready to just end it. Then again you can’t just take someone’s 10 grand, that’s how much I gave him, and just expect me to go away, that’s a lot of money. I was a millennial living in downtown Toronto. He kind of had me, I don’t want to say by the balls, but he kind of had me in this position where I didn’t want to walk away, but I knew that something was off. Scott Do you think the deal with the car- You gave him $10,000 and that was supposed to be you guys going in half and he was going to pay the other half and get you this great car. Do you think that was just a complete scam? What was his incentive for that? Emily Honestly, after everything that happened, I fully believe he used that money for something else and that was to get us on this trip. Scott You know, I’ve found that a lot of times, women have sort of a sixth sense about guys like this. Were you feeling that? Emily Yes and no. I’m someone that always gives someone else the benefit of the doubt. At the same time I’d also invested so much in it and I didn’t want to let go. It actually taught me alot about loss and losing money. Sometimes we don’t know how to lose and at that point I didn’t know how to lose so I didn’t want to let that go. Scott So he invited you to go to Saint Lucia, what was involved with that? Emily It actually started a week before that and he said, “Oh I want to come talk to you.” I said, “Ok can you just text it?” He said, “No, I don t want to talk about it over the phone.” I just assumed maybe he was with his ex-wife or whoever and that’s why he didn’t want to talk over the phone. So he came over and said, “I want to go on this trip with you, I know you’re having a really difficult time. We can just go out and escape all of this. There’s just something I have to do while I’m down there.” I asked, “Well what is it?” He said, “Well I’m going to bring some drugs back and you can do it too if you want.” I said, “Absolutely not.” I’d traveled a lot prior to that and never for nefarious reasons. I was almost offended that he would ask me that. He left and I thought that was the end of it. Then he messaged me a couple hours later when he knew I was out, I would go out 3 or 4 nights a week. He said, “Forget I ever said anything about drug smuggling. Me and you. Let’s just go on this trip.” I thought about it and after 6 drinks I thought, “Ok I’ll give him this one last chance.” I did say, “I don’t want to go on this trip before I get the car.” He said, “I promise the car will be ready when you get back.” So I believed him. As soon as I got home that night he asked me to send him my passport information and he booked the tickets that night and we were leaving 2 days later. Scott He just sounds like an expert manipulator. Emily Yeah but at the same time I was someone who was spontaneous. I’d booked tickets to Indonesia before and gone places just for fun and not planned everything to a T. So the spontaneousness of this trip was normal for me but there were other parts of this that I shouldn’t have ignored but I did because of my drinking and drug use at the time. Scott So what happened when you got there? Emily We got there and it was an all inclusive vacation for 7 days. We got there on a Friday and we were coming back the next Friday. The first 3 days were really fun and completely normal. It was actually strange because he was drinking on this trip and he was getting me to drink too. I thought, “Well I guess if you want me to drink, sure I’m not going to turn it down when it’s all inclusive.” So that’s when I saw that his wish for me to get sober was kind of an illusion, but I didn’t care I just put it under the guise of living it up on vacation. He also asked, “Hey do you want some drugs?” I thought it was kind of weird but I said, “Sure, ok.” So he got us cocaine. So we were not sober for the first couple of days. The third morning I was sober and I was about to go down to the pool when he said, “Hey, don’t go down to the pool because today our friends are coming to pick us up and you’re going to get in the car with me.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “Did you really think this was all fun and games? We’re here to work.” That’s when I knew what was going to happen, but I still didn’t believe that I would have to participate at that point. Scott That must have hit you by surprise, but still not a complete surprise. Emily Yeah it was in the middle ground. I thought I could still weasel my way out of it. I was still shocked but not mad yet. I said, “Ok, ok yeah whatever” but I did get in the car with him that afternoon. I thought maybe I was just going along for the ride. I did know that I was on a trip with only one person I knew, I didn’t know anyone else, and I was in another country. Everything just kind of came rushing back on me. We always say that we should’ve known better, but sometimes we ignore those thoughts because we like to be happy and take shortcuts and take the easy way out. Scott I get the impression from you that you’re kind of an optimist, that you were thinking everything was going to still turn out ok. Emily Always. I’ve always been an optimist and I’ve always believed that people were generally good. At that time though, he was not good. I also realized that I had been tricked and I didn’t want to believe that, so I was bound and determined to not do it. As the days and weeks progressed, we ended up going to a house and meeting these people and getting my measurements taken. That’s when I knew that I was kind of in it because they knew everything about me, he was even using that as leverage. He was making threats about what would happen too, so I didn’t want to risk not doing it. So it was kind of a 2 step process. Wednesday we got in a car and went to a house and met the people who told us exactly what we would be doing. I found out that day that he had told them that I was going to be doing it with him, so they had all my information and everything like that. I got my measurements taken and then I had to go to a mall with this lady and pick out a dress. She said, “Pretend to pick out a dress that you like but I’m actually going to pick out the one that you’re going to wear.” So it was like a charade of shopping for this drug smuggling operation. She picked out a couple and I picked out one, then eventually we left and got back in the car to go back to the house. She kept the dress because she actually sewed it custom to fit my body, and then also customized underwear like Spanx. That’s what taking my measurements were for and that’s where the drugs were going to be concealed. So after this whole shopping charade episode happened they dropped us off back at the resort on Wednesday afternoon. Then on Friday when our flight was set to leave we were to go to that house again and get strapped up basically. Scott So you knew from Wednesday that this was going to happen. How scared were you to think about what was going to happen? Emily I was scared and I was mad and I kept telling him that I really didn’t want to do this. I feel guilty enough flying even when I haven’t done anything. There’s just that feeling you get when you’re going through an airport like, “Did I do something wrong?” At the end of the day I didn’t know the consequences fully, but I also knew that it was really really bad. I also didn’t want to put anything else at risk, I thought this was the safest way out so I just wanted to obey what they wanted me to do. I didn’t know how they would retaliate. I had an idea, but I wasn’t about to put my family at risk too. Scott Oh yeah because he knows where you live and all of that stuff. Emily Yeah exactly. I also blamed myself. I thought, “You got yourself into this mess, you better just get yourself out. At least out of the country.” So on the final day after crying and telling him that I didn’t want to do this, he told me it would be fine and that he’d done this before and that the domestic airport already knew what we were doing so they would let us through. He just gave me what I call little verbal vodka shots to try to make me feel calm. He even said that he would take the drugs off me at Pearson so that I wouldn’t have to face customs with drugs on my body. So that gave me a little bit of relief, that was, until we landed at Pearson. Scott You had to get through 2 airport securities right? First the one in Saint Lucia. Did they have dogs there? Obviously that must have gone ok. Emily Yeah, they had a metal detector. You just walk through a metal detector and then put your bag through the screener. Apparently they knew, but I can’t say for sure and I don’t want to make allegations that aren’t true. That was probably something that he just told me. I was still nervous Obviously. The plane ride home felt so long and so short at the same time. I was excited to land but I was also nervous as heck to land. Scott Aw man I just can’t- I’m feeling a little nervous just feeling what you were feeling on that flight. I mean this whole time you had- how much cocaine did you have on you? Emily It was 2 kilograms of cocaine. Scott And basically it was just stuffed in your underwear? Emily Yeah it was 2 bricks and these Spanx were like little bike shorts with a pouch and 1 brick was shoved in the front and 1 was shoved in the back. On my petite body it was pretty obvious that something was there. I felt so ridiculous traveling like this. I even had a cardigan on which is another odd thing to wear home from a tropical destination. So there were just a whole bunch of red flags. Scott Yeah you would think that in training that would be something that customs people are trained to look for. Somebody wearing clothes that don’t make sense. Emily Yeah absolutely. The plane landed and we had our carry on and we had to go through the first checkpoint which is where you have to give them your imigration form. This is after he’s told me, “Oh I’m actually not going to take the drugs from you and keep them in my backpack.” So I was furious. If I was nervous before, I was just ringing off alarms left right and center. My loyalty to him ended there 100%, but my loyalty to the task at hand did not, and that’s because I didn’t want to be responsible for sabotaging this operation willingly. Then he could just blame it all on me and then I would really see repercussions. So we went through the first checkpoint. They give you a piece of paper and they scribble a little number on it and you don’t really know what that means until after you collect your bags and then there is one last checkpoint where you have to show your cards. They saw our cards with our number on it and they said, “You have to go into secondary.” That’s when I knew it was over. I felt a sense of relief. I truly truly did. I thought, “We’re going to get caught. I’m not going to lie, but I’m also not going to create a scene.” Scott Had you planned ahead of time with Noah about what your backstory was so they would be matching? Emily No. He’d given me no coaching to who I was that day, my identity was so lost. He was so disillusioned in the sense that he thought everything would just go as planned that he didn’t even plan for us to get called into secondary. When we got called in he was panicking 100%. I was panicking too but I also felt relief because I knew that I was in my home country. Scott Right, at least you had made it back to Toronto. Emily Yeah, in one piece. Scott How would you rate yourself on how good you are at lying? Emily 5. 9 if I’m heavily intoxicated but I wasn’t that day. Normally around a 4 or 5. I just can’t do it. I took an acting class and I failed. I was assigned the role of an extra because I just couldn t keep a straight face. Scott Here you’ve got all this adrenaline going through your body, it’s not really the time for your best improv performance. Emily Yeah exactly. I couldn’t even hide the fact that I was so mad. I had gotten the bait and switch not once but twice. So there was the anger from being tricked again and knowing I was doing something very very wrong and trying to hide it. No matter if you can lie with your words, you cannot control your body language sometimes when you’re in these very very high stress situations. I’m glad I couldn’t control it. My body was telling the truth and I didn’t have to say a word. They immediately separated us and put us each with a border agent so that we couldn’t see each other. They look at your passport and ask you pretty simple questions about where you re from, how long you were away, how much money you make, and then they get into the more nitty gritty stuff. They ask if you like to drink and party, and I was like, “Yeah I do.” They ask, “When was the last time you did?” I said, “Last week.” Then they said, “Ok. So Miss O’Brien, we just have to ask you a couple further questions. Do you have any drugs in your suitcase? Ok well just to check we are going to send it through this x-ray and then we’re going to scan it.” They scan it with an ion scanner, and it came up clean. So I could kind of breathe a little bit but I still couldn’t look him in the face. Then he asked me, “Ok, Miss O’Brien, we’re actually going to have to do a body search. Is there anything you want to say before we do that? Do you have drugs on you right now?” I stared at the floor, and my ears were ringing so loud. It took me so long to answer that they had to ask me again. That’s when I looked up at him straight in the eye and I said, “Yes.” I knew at this point that lying to a border official s face would just dig me deeper into this mess. I wanted to tell the truth but for obvious reasons sometimes you have to think about the safest way out. At that point however, telling the truth was the last option and it felt really good to tell the truth. Scott Looking back on it though, I would think that you know now, when they asked you the first time and you didn’t answer that was really the answer they needed. Emily Exactly. They said, “Ok, well we’re placing you under arrest.” I said, “Ok.” At that point I thought I could still just explain what happened. I didn’t research the criminal code or research this whole debacle. So I didn’t truly know how serious this was. Ignorance is not bliss I can tell you that. Sitting there in the holding cell waiting to be processed, I was then arrested by the RCMP which is like the police for Canada. Then I was sent to a local jail. I was told, “You’re not getting out until your parents come and get you out.” Your friends can’t just bail you out in these situations, it’s an offense so serious that you are placed on a high bond. My bail was set at $50,000 and I would only bail out if someone that they approved would let me live with them throughout the duration of the case. That’s when I was granted bail and went to live with my mom. My mom was actually on vacation when she got a call while she was on a dock at a cottage with her friends when they told her, “Your daughter’s been arrested at the airport.” So she came back. That’s one thing that I appreciate to this day is the unconditional love that my parents have for me. They knew that I was struggling with certain things and they knew that something might happen but they didn’t know it would be this. They were just glad that I was alive. Scott That is not a phone call that a parent wants to get. Emily Absolutely not. Scott What was her initial reaction when she got that call? Emily She was scared and nervous but just wanted to see me. So that’s what they did. Her and my dad were separated at that time but they both came to my court hearing. They were both there and they got me a lawyer and they worked together to see what the next step were going to be. It came as a shock to them; this type of arrest at least. Scott You were on 2 ½ years of house arrest. Why so long? Emily That was actually kind of short compared to some of the other people I talked to when I was inside. With my case they wanted me to prove that I was willing to change my habits that got me there. I had to go live with my mother and then we basically had to wait for the first court date. There’s all kinds of hearings, there’s preliminary hearings and I can’t keep track of how many there were. I knew that right away I wanted to plead guilty. If I had actually fought it and pleaded not guilty it would have taken even longer because the court systems are so backed up. So throughout that 2 ½ years I was on house arrest and going to rehab programs. I knew that my substance use had played a pretty significant role even though I didn’t orchestrate it. Even though I never intended to profit off of this trip, I could have never gone on it if I had addressed that I was struggling. Yeah so 2 ½ years of that was probably the toughest period for me because I still didn’t get sober. I spent a lot of time being mad. I just got to a day where I didn’t want to be mad anymore, I knew that I could really make something good out of this situation. That’s how I was raised and I knew that I had potential. After the 2 ½ years that’s when I was finally sentenced. We had a court date set for January 16, 2018. Scott So for 2 ½ years, you were on house arrest, were you still able to work at that time for the social media company? What did you do? Emily Yes I was. I was able to go to and from work and that was about it. Luckily my work brought me to a lot of places so it was pretty flexible, whereas if I had worked at one place I could have only gone there and back. Having that entrepreneurship part of my life actually let me do a lot more than a typical house arrest situation and I was also able to get creative. I would create more work for myself so that I could continue to live and meet more people. It was eventually people who were going to be on your side because they know the real you and they know your reputation and all the good you re capable of doing. It was still a nightmare, I was very paranoid. Everytime I would see a police car or officer I would have a panic attack. There was just so much that I didn’t know. I didn’t know if people were going to come after me. It was very very challenging. Scott When did you find out your actual sentence? Emily I found out I would be going to prison for sure about a year and a half in, and then it was about 6 months before we agreed we would submit a joint plea bargain between the prosecutor and the defense lawyer. When there is a joint submission judges very rarely disagree. It was a plea of 4 years and that doesn’t include my time on house arrest. With 4 years in the Canadian prison system, you’re eligible for parole after ⅙ of your sentence, which is living in a halfway house, and then full parole after serving ⅓ of your sentence. Scott Wow, that’s not much right? I mean to me it seems like for a 4 year sentence you could get out fairly quickly if you did it right. Emily Yeah so I was out- but being on house arrest felt like more of a prison because you can’t move forward and you don’t know what is happening. You’re draining your bank account, your emotions are a trainwreck, your family is walking on eggshells and dealing with being really badly hurt and trying to heal. So that was the worst part that felt like more of a prison. Going into prison I had a way better perspective one it because I knew there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Scott Ok, now it makes sense. I remember you saying in one of your videos that once you were sentenced to 4 years and found out it was a relief to know there was an end in sight. Emily Yeah exactly. Everytime you go to court you have to pay money and everytime I leave the house I would be paranoid and what have you. There was just so much unknown that it was debilitating. It was paralyzing, the unknown, while I was on house arrest. I felt like, “Ok I want to go. My family is struggling with this and worried. We know that we can make something good out of this.” At this point I did have time to do my research so I was able to plan a lot more and harness my resources. I talked to people who had been incarcerated before and got as much ammo as I could to prepare myself to come out on the other side stronger, and not go in angry and bitter and trying to get revenge. That really doesn’t get you anywhere. Scott So you had time to think about it and plan before you went into prison. What was the worst thing you imagined about prison before you went in? What were you worried about? Emily I think the worst thing that I was worried about was being away from my boyfriend at the time. We ended up breaking up while I was in prison, which was hard. Going through that breakup sober and not being able to retaliate with a drink or a random hookup then you actually become stronger. So I left prison single but it was awesome and I’m so glad I did. Scott Wow. I mean most people when they’re headed to prison they’re worried about having to join a gang or getting beat up everyday or what their cellmate is going to be like. All these things that go through your head, but you weren’t really thinking those things? Emily No, because I wasn’t really afraid of risk. I’ve never been afraid of risk and I’ve never been afraid of people. People do horrible things inside prison and outside prison. People are violent inside prison and outside prison. I knew that I could defend myself and that I was feisty enough, but I also knew that I was someone that wouldn’t instigate things. I was someone that listened but not someone to be walked all over. Also I wasn’t going to get myself in trouble in prison because I wanted to get out. I also had a lot of support, I had my family and friends and people who were so excited for me to get out. The gangs and other activities that go on in prison are for people that don’t really have anyone on the outside and that’s become their home. Scott Yeah, that is their life. Take us through your first day in prison. What was that like? Emily My first day in prison was actually kind of 2-fold. I had to spend 10 days in a maximum security unit. So there was the first day there, and then you get a cellmate and you don’t get let out for 10 days at all. Then we got transferred to the federal prison. It takes 10 days to get processed and then you get shipped off to prison camp. That one is you in a paddy wagon with 10 other girls, it’s hot, you’re shackled on your hands and feet and to the person next to you. As they open the back door you have to shimmy off the paddy wagon. It’s pretty barbaric. The sun was shining and I breathed in the fresh air and I thought, “Ok this is it.” I even told my parents. “It’s just like I’m going to camp.” If I can take a trip abroad knowing nobody and going somewhere people sometimes tell you not to go because of risk, which I did all the time, this was just like that. I was never scared to travel so why would I be scared of this. I also knew that I could learn something. Scott I love that you decided ahead of time to make that time a positive experience. Emily Yeah. Negativity and hate are just exhausting and I don’t like being tired because I have a lot of energy. I had to appreciate the support I had as well because my family had put so much into this as well. I had to pull my sock up and let them know that I was committed to change and committed to a success story. Scott Take us through the scene of when you first got this business idea while you were in there. Emily Going into prison, I was annoyed at first to have to leave my business and I didn’t want to have to throw it all away. When I got to prison though, I saw so many other people who had the same anxiety as I did but also had so much talent. We just wanted to figure out how we were going to reenter the workforce. There weren’t very many good programs in prison and we felt so misunderstood. We are put in the box as being bad people, but there are so many other people who make those exact same decisions and don’t get caught, or have the resources to hide it. I wanted to break down those barriers and break down the myth that people in prison are bad or worthless, because it’s not true. 80% of women in prison are mothers who have done something just to survive or have been through incredible trauma and suffered tremendous abuse or addiction. They really just want to start over and feel like they were worth something again. In prison, food was something that really brought a lot of people together. Whether that was through themed nights or birthdays or in this case the superbowl, we were having a superbowl party. This was very PG of course, we basically just made food and watched the game. Popcorn was being shared and people were sharing their stories and putting all different toppings on it. I saw how people get creative and would forget they were in prison and also find joy and laughter. That’s when I thought, “Wait a minute. Why aren’t there more popcorn companies out there that do more than just pop popcorn?” I thought about all the popcorn companies that I knew and they weren’t really healthy and there wasn’t a story to them. I also thought about the price point of popcorn. I knew that from a raw material perspective you could get it for relatively inexpensive. So I put 2 and 2 and 4 and 4 together and I was like, “I want to build this into something.” That’s when the idea was born. I wrote it down in a little notebook I kept beside my bed. I would always have these thoughts at night and I just remember turning on the light, opening the notebook and writing this down. Scott What were you writing in the notebook? You knew you wanted to start some kind of a business that involved popcorn, did you know what it would be like at that point, or how did that come about? Emily I didn’t at that point but everyday in every activity I was involved in, I found a way to get inspiration from that and incorporate it in. I really wanted to help not just myself, but other people find work. That was something I was taught at a really young age, that helping others is so rewarding. We can work at jobs where we’re making a ton of money but if it isn’t helping anyone then what’s the point? I’ve always been taught that giving is really important and forgiveness. So combining all those things that I learned helped. Also knowing that society doesn’t do a good job of helping reintegrate people who have been locked up; that they are essentially misunderstood. I knew that I could do it. I don’t want to say I’m unstoppable because we all are stoppable in different ways, but once I put my mind to something, good or bad, I will put all my energy into it. Everything that happened after that day made me think, “How can I incorporate storytelling, writing, flavor development.” Even the name was decided by me and my former residents as a collective decision. So the ideas just kept accumulating and I would write down each thing in a separate notebook, which I still have today, and I would check off those boxes of things I wanted to do and how I could help people get on the right track. Scott Obviously you had the advantage of already running a business before, so you already knew what was involved. Were you able to do re-business planning or research while you were in there? Did you have internet access? How did you make plans for when you were going to get out? Emily That was the fun part. I had no internet. That actually taught me a lot about what you need to do research and start something important. You don’t need all the fancy bells and whistles. You just need the raw organic material and grit, drive and purpose. I had all of that in there, so I was able to do recipe development from inspiration inside prison. Even the names and the branding, we took slander that was used against us and put it into the branding to empower people. So our slogan, “Popcorn so good it’s criminal” was something that was developed on the inside. Then I had my friends on the outside send me market research. I also worked with the prison librarian who was a staff member and she would print me off scholarly articles from databases and give them to me so I could really start making a case as to why people who were incarcerated needed to be supported in employment initiatives from corporations. It wasn’t just the popcorn, popcorn was the vector to this bigger mission of equal opportunity. Even with recipe development, I had a friend who would send me food trend ideas. The first thing that I did with my friend from the outside was to start a blog and start writing different stories. So I would write stories and mail them out to him and he would upload them to the internet. We were building this brand before I was even out of prison. Scott I like the idea that while you were in prison, you weren’t just planning to start a business, you also had in mind to hire people who were either in there with you at the time, or other people who were formerly incarcerated. It seems like what kind of gave this a big purpose. Emily Absolutely. I knew that I could prove people wrong about myself. I also knew that I had a lot of support. I wanted to help instill confidence in others. Family has always been important to me and prison was a family too. I have so many great friends that I still talk to from there that are doing so well now. As the brand has grown I have actually hired people who I had been in the same prison with, as well as people who have been in different prisons. The more people that you hire you create this army of proof. That can show employers that it’s not just doing the right thing, it’s actually doing a helpful thing for society, the economy and the individual. It’s like this trifecta of social good. Scott How long were you in prison? Emily I was in the penitentiary physically for 10 months and then I was in a halfway house for 6 months. Then I got full parole in July of 2019. I’m still currently on parole, until January 2022. Scott I would think from the parole board standpoint, you were like the ideal person. You already had all these plans for when you were going to get out. You were on the right track and it’s not like you were trying to deny your guilt or anything like that. You must have been the model person there. Emily Yeah, and I think if prison actually worked then I wouldn’t be an anomaly. By me doing this and showing how it was done and why people struggle so much, it’s all showing that the prison system doesn’t actually work for most people. It’s making a point not just about me but about what is really missing. Scott So you get out and what was your first step? How did you proceed from there? Emily I had to go to the halfway house and when I lived there I got started right away. I went on the radio because I had written a letter to the local station and told them that I loved listening to them in prison. He loved it and invited me to come on. Then I had written some letters to some authors of books I had found inspiration from and they wanted to meet me, so I went and met them. Then I started speaking at local events at things like Toastmasters and started sharing my story. I volunteered to speak at schools and started practicing the craft of storytelling in an impactful way. I also shared the story with the media. I knew that this was a risk because not everyone was going to like it. Some people would berate me, but I didn’t care. I’d been berated for the last 3 ½ years by the system. The importance of telling the story to make a good impact as opposed to being afraid, was way more important than worrying about people’s comments. As the years have progressed these comments have died off. The proof is really in the popcorn. So as these stories were shared in the papers, people were interested in helping because people found it relatable. It’s not just about having a crazy criminal lifestyle, it’s about how this can happen to regular people. It’s probably happened to you or someone you know and we all have to embrace love and forgiveness and second chances. Scott Were you already selling products during this time? Emily I couldn’t sell it while I was in prison because you’re not allowed to conduct business as an inmate. I started as soon as I got out. The local grocery store actually let us pop the popcorn in there. Then there was another company that gave us like $2500 dollars for free labels for bags. There were tons of volunteers that just donated their time and money to help support the growth of the business, so it really is a community built business in the sense that people really saw the potential. Scott When people see something like this happening, everybody just wants for you to succeed. I can see why people would want to help you with that. Emily Yeah! I found out too it was because I’d actually helped them. Everyone that helped us was someone that had experienced something similar, or had shared the story with their family and it had helped them. It was very reciprocal in the sense that it is inspiring people and it is helping people get through adversity, or rectify difficult situations, or even just make new friends and gain new perspectives. Scott Do you remember your first big order? Emily Yeah I actually do (laughs). Scott What was that? Emily It was so funny because I was living in a halfway house. I told them I was going out for a friend s birthday and would be back by 8 o’clock. For my friend s birthday I actually brought her a bag of this popcorn that I’d been making in the halfway house. She had had a couple drinks at dinner, not me because I was not allowed to drink, but then she went up to the table next to us and said, “This is my friend’s popcorn company and she was in prison.” Turns out the people at the table next to us were billionaires. One of them had also been involved with the law. So he came up to me and said, “Really? You started this in prison? What’s the biggest order you’ve had?” I said, “I don’t know, maybe $300 or $400.” This was only about a month out of prison. He said, “I’m going to triple that.” Then he took out like $1400 dollars cash and just gave it to me at the table. I said, “Holy shit this is insane. What flavors do you want?” He said, “I don’t care, just send it to this address.” So then I had to explain to the halfway house why I had all this cash on me. Normally if you re an inmate coming back to your halfway house with $1400 cash it would be really sketchy. Scott They would know something was up, yeah. Emily Yeah, but it was just so exciting. Scott Was he buying it just for himself? Emily He bought it for his friends and people that work for him. Scott Wow. Your objective initially was to get this on grocery store shelves right? Was that your primary distribution plan? Emily No, it was our eventual distribution plan, but our first plan was to be a cottage industry. That’s truly how you build connection. If you go to a big grocery store there’s not going to be someone on the floor that is talking about your product. You really want to talk with small business owners and people that are holding events. We did so many events. We did movie screenings, hockey games, or after I would do presentations at schools. There are a lot of rules when it comes to being on the shelf. Over the years we have had to improve the product, its shelf life, the legal requirements, labeling and everything like that which all takes time and money. So we built up some financial cushioning from all of this stuff that we’ve done and because of that we’ve been able to hold 100% ownership. We haven’t had to have any investors. Scott Wow, that s great. If you can do it that way that is ideal so you’re only accountable to yourself. Emily Yes, and the people you want to serve right? Also your goals too. Scott Exactly. What are some of the popcorn flavors you offer? These are different, you don’t find these flavors in other popcorn. Emily We have done so many iterations over the last couple years. Currently we have a lemon meringue caramel, peanut butter caramel, cheesy caramel that is getting relaunched in a month and a half, a sweet and salty is getting launched in 2 months and a lemon pepper dill, salted chocolate caramel and double coated caramel. Ooh and we are launching a peanut butter and jelly caramel in about a month. This one has been my baby. Peanut butter and jelly was something that was really high worth in prison so we would trade it for things. So I really wanted to incorporate these themes from prison into the flavors. Lemon pepper dill was also a prison inspired recipe. So these are very prison inspired and can help tell a story while invoking nostalgia and feel good feelings. Scott Well I have to tell you, I’ve tried your popcorn. I incorporated that as part of my research before we talked. I’m not even a popcorn eater, I rarely eat it, my wife is the real popcorn aficionado in the family. We ordered the lemon meringue caramel and man, it was really good! Emily Awesome! Scott I mean you already know that (laughs), but I was surprised because I don’t really eat popcorn, and my wife loves it. She was kind of disappointed to find out that I liked it because that means less for her. I know you sell this online through your website and it s in a lot of local grocery stores in Canada right? Emily Yes. We also work with a lot of subscription box companies. We filed our trademarks for the US. We’re launching with a major Canadian retailer in August. We also just got picked up by a national distributor to go across Canada, and we will be making that announcement May 3rd. Scott Is it growing as quickly as you expected? What did you expect when you started as far as the growth trajectory? Emily I knew that I would be so bound and determined to make it a success. I honestly didn’t see it being involved in so many different areas. Subscription boxes, events, birthdays, there are so many different ways that people have connected over this popcorn. Even at AA meetings and things like that. Just the whole theme of a comeback. So I hear everyday how it helped someone or how it was shared. We do so much corporate stuff now, especially with Covid-19 and people going through adversity, because people love to hear about how someone else has made it through adversity. That’s the one thing I like to encourage is to make a comeback and let people know they can do it. Even when it seems like the end or there is so much out of your control and it’s exhausting, reminding people that it will come to an end. We’ve been doing just so many awesome things. I’ve met some fantastic people. I know it’s just going to continue getting more impactful, and that’s really what we want. I’m even working with government MP’s now and working with bigger institutions that I think need to take responsibility for the change that’s needed as well. Scott You re doing all of this and employing the formerly incarcerated. How many employees do you have now? Emily We have 4 right now, which is amazing. Another thing that I do is workshops with other employers and chambers of commerce to encourage them to do the same. Like I said the proof is in the popcorn. You can walk the walk and talk all you want in the beginning, but now over the last 2 years I can say that I have a very loyal hardworking staff. People from prison don’t just want to steal and not show up for work. They are a major asset for your business and their family as well. You have to really work together and know what everyone’s needs are and make it a safe environment for them and learn how to really help them and make them your family. Scott I can really picture how that would be a successful combination. When somebody comes out of prison there’s not a lot of places they can go to find a job. When they can come to you and find a job and you’re happy to take them in and give them a second chance. I can imagine they really don’t want to mess that up. Emily Yeah, or if popcorn isn’t for them we also work with so many different organizations that have an ecosystem of other employers too. It’s just so important to be connected to organizations that do that as well. There’s definitely room. Scott You’re helping them have a much better chance for success when they get out. What is your website, how can people get this popcorn? Emily You can order it at www.combacksnacks.com/shop or if you just want to check out the website just head to comebacksnacks.com and see the different kind of work that we do, how we’ve gotten involved and the impact we’re having on a local, national and global scale to support reintegration and second chances. Scott Emily, it s great to see you again.  Emily Yes, you as well. It s been a minute.  Scott I know. Well, it was five years ago when we last spoke, when we recorded your episode, and that was 2021, right in the height of COVID. Was that a difficult time for your business?  Emily We actually grew during COVID, and I ll tell you why. Number one, we are an essential business, so I was able to actually leave the house. And number two, I created this kind of unique marketing campaign where I was actually on parole, but I was one of the few people that was allowed to go out of the house despite the fact that I was someone that was in prison. So when I was doing these deliveries of the popcorn – because people were trying to cope and people loved the story – I would tell them. When I went to their house, I would spend 5 or 10 minutes sometimes just talking to them about how I coped. And so people would just order the popcorn, but they d also loved talking to me. So it kind of became this whole marketing thing, an accidental marketing thing, and then people would be like, Can you talk to my kids? because everyone was very stressed out. And, so yeah, we were actually able to grow because people were consuming more snacks, and we were an essential business, and we were a brand that really resonated during a challenging time. Scott Yeah. That is amazing when so many businesses were having such a terrible time, mostly retail, walk-in kind of places, that kind of thing. So your product is available where now? It s all across Canada, right?  Emily It s all across Canada, yeah. So we re in so many different channels. We re in grocery, we re in concessions, a number of arenas where the Toronto Raptors play, Toronto Maple Leafs, Toronto Blue Jays. We are in hotels. We are in breweries and wineries. I actually just did a licensing deal in the US, actually, with VStar Corrections. So they re licensing my brand to sell chips with the Comeback Snacks name into all the correctional facilities.  Scott Oh, in correctional facilities?  Emily In correctional facilities, yeah. Scott That s like a full circle thing, sort of, right?  Emily I know.  Scott That is amazing. Now, you had it in the US for a while, right? What happened there?  Emily We did, but when the tariffs were imposed, it just became very challenging and expensive to navigate. We just didn t have the bandwidth to kind of experiment with things like that. We had to recalibrate our strategy, but it s not off the map forever. It s just, when you re a small company, you only have a certain amount of money, and there were just so many new rules, and half the people we talked to didn t know what was going on, so it just became a risk we didn t want to take. Scott Yeah. Okay, now you told me about this thing called Comeback Catalyst. What is this and how does that work?  Emily Yeah, of course. So at Comeback Snacks, one of my goals was always to employ as many people as I could. Obviously, as a small company, you can t hire everyone, but you know that people coming out of prison have talents and are incredibly creative. I saw that when I was inside prison. I saw the entire prison economy. People would barter, trade, create things, sell things. Creativity, tenacity is there. And so I was like, What if I can build some sort of course to educate people that are coming out of incarceration or have a record of how to launch their own company or generate income for themselves? It doesn t have to be a huge company. It can just be, how do you generate more revenue? Because one of the main reasons people re-offend is because of finances.  Scott Mm-hmm.  Emily And they can t get a job. So if you can create your own income, then that s going to hopefully deter you from committing more crimes. You don t have to go back to that. So, Comeback Catalyst was co-founded by myself and Lucy Cullen, who I met at an event and she has an incredibly experienced background in building programs like this. I don t know the structure and, like, how to execute, but I can put the meat on the bones, essentially.  Over the last two years, we ve had about 137 graduates from the program, all who have wanted to launch their own business. Now, it s actually available in prisons in Canada as well for free, so people can go on the computers and watch this course.  Scott That s amazing.  Emily Mm-hmm.  Scott You have found your mission.  Emily I have. Yes, I truly have. Scott And that s at comebackcatalyst.ca, so people can go and check that out. Just a random question, have you ever thought about going on Shark Tank? Emily If I can get into America, yeah. I can t cross the border, though, with my record.  Scott Oh, because of your history?  Emily Yeah. Yeah.  Scott Oh, wow, okay. Emily The borders are very strict right now.  Scott Okay.  Emily We did do a small round of investment, but we don t want to bite off more than we can chew. So my business partner has– he s very smart. He has a very extensive background in business and running and building businesses, and we don t want to bite off more than we can chew. We have a small round of financing that is helping us get to where our next stages are, but until we really need to– we re really good at bootstrapping as well. So I m very good at harnessing the community and harnessing media to kind of generate more revenue without having to spend lots of money on marketing.  Scott That s smart. I know I ve heard that one of the biggest challenges is when a business grows too quickly or too big too fast. That can be as much of a problem as not having enough business. Emily Yes. Scott That s good. You re doing this the right way. I want to ask you this. You have made a point to employ people who have some type of a criminal history or a background that would prevent them in a lot of ways from getting a job. Can you give us an example of someone who has come into your company and been successful? Emily Of course, yeah. So one of the girls that works with us, her name s Vanessa. I actually met her when I was in prison. She works at other places too because she works contract for us but she has been amazing. She does sales, she does marketing, she does events, and then I ve also written her job letters for other employers as well. So she works with us, and then now she s been able to work with a number of other people. So she s great. People love her. I always want her to come to events with me because she just shines. She shines.  Scott Wow.  Emily And just being able to be yourself and showcase who you are as a human and feel comfortable with the fact that you did make a mistake, people are accepting you is true freedom.  Scott That s got to be so gratifying for you.  Emily Yeah. I m not like Mother Teresa. I just want to see people live.  Scott You re making it happen. That s cool. All right. Well, it was great to talk to you again. I hope your business continues to grow, and that you have lots more success. Emily Thank you so much, Scott. Scott You can see a picture of Emily and get the link to her company website in the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/259.  Our Facebook question this past Tuesday was “What’s something that’s relatively cheap, that improves your life tremendously?” Come on over and let us know – or maybe just read the comments and find out about some things you might want to  check out. WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook Also, just in case you’re not already aware of this, What Was That Like has a YouTube channel. For me, I don’t really get the idea of listening to podcasts on YouTube, especially an audio-only show like this one is, but I know people do because that channel has more than 1200 subscribers. You can check it out at WhatWasThatLike.com/youtube. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And here we are, about to hear this week’s Listener Story. If you listen to the show, you know how this goes – we end every main episode with a story sent in by a listener. Why haven’t you sent yours in yet? You know you have one. Everyone does. Just record it on your phone, like 5-10 minutes, and email it to me – [email protected]. This listener talks about an experience with her adult daughter, who is autistic. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener story) Hi, Scott. It s Ang here with another story about my adult daughter with a disability and autism. Our daughter Hannah is almost 29 years old, and she lives in a group home in a city very close to us. She was home for the holidays between Christmas and New Year s, and we spent our days enjoying the holidays, plus making sure she had exercise, she had self-care, she s doing some chores, just keeping her occupied.  One day, I was going to help a friend s dad settle into his new apartment. My mom was going to come along, and Hannah would accompany us. What we could do is we could do some chores around the new apartment, and Hannah could listen or watch a movie with her wireless headphones. So we got her all set up. She watched her movie. We did some unpacking. Her movie was done, and she even helped a little bit with unpacking some boxes.  Then, when we were done, we were tired, and she had reached her limit, we decided to go home. The new ap-apartment was in a neighboring community about half an hour away. So Hannah s task from leaving the apartment to the vehicle was to carry her bag, and in the bag was her iPad and her headphones. She carried her bag. She was responsible for her bag with me making sure she was responsible for it, and I had other items that we had brought along for the day.  From the door to my car was about twenty feet. It was a short distance. It s Manitoba, so we had snow all over the parking lot. Everything was white. As we re walking the three of us my mom said to me, Where did Hannah go? I m like, Well, she s right here. And it just didn t make any sense because Hannah is very passive, and she walks slowly, and she s always right behind us. She is not a bolter. She s the opposite of bolter. She is very passive, and she stays with us and requires lots of prompting for movement, so it s very unlike her to not be with us. So we just thought, Well, this is silly. She s right here. There s no place to go.   We checked around my car and she wasn t there. Then, it got a little ridiculous. This doesn t make any sense. And all of a sudden, holy cow, what if a car comes zooming around the corner and hits her? She did have a pink parka on, which would have made her a bit more visible in the white snow. So there was that. We were calling her, even though she really doesn t have the skills to be able to answer– she might be able to, but that could have been something that didn t work at all. I had just purchased a new car and beside my car was a car that resembled my former car, and my mom had purchased my former car. There, we saw her sitting in the car right beside my car the car that was my old car, the car that resembled Nana s car. She was sitting there in the back seat.  Not finding her– many people who have children say, I know how that feels because my toddler was missing in a store for some time and it was really scary”, but this is different. This is a near twenty-nine-year-old that every component of her life and her well-being, somebody is responsible for. She is one hundred percent vulnerable, and we and other people have taken care of her and made sure that she was safe through all sorts of series of events in her life. And even though this was a few seconds, it felt very impactful and I had a reaction that probably didn t make a lot of sense for the few seconds that she was gone. We scooped her out of the vehicle and we got her into our car. We got home, and we started talking about it on the way home, “What would have happened if that person had driven away? She wouldn t have said anything. And Hannah s quiet, and she also wouldn’t have seen her.” And it was– anyway, we got home.  I was unpacking the stuff from the day and, all of a sudden, I realized that the bag is not in my car, and I knew exactly where the bag was. It was in that car that she was sitting in. I thought right away, “I m going to get the bag back and I know how to do it. I just have to do a lot of work.”  I know that Facebook has great privacy settings and that if you take the privacy settings off, that works too. So I got busy. I made a Facebook post, put it to public. I added it to a community Facebook post. I asked for help. I said, If you want to share it, I would really appreciate it, or, “If anyone has connections to that community s Facebook page, could you please share it? Within an hour, I had people messaging me saying, I want to help. I m going to share it to all these different places, and other people saying, I know the caretaker of that building. There might be cameras. The help was just– it just seemed endless. By the next morning, that post had been shared around 500 times, and I was blown away. It s like someone is going to see this post and someone s going to say, I found this bag with an iPad and headphones, and they would say, Hey, I heard about this… So by noon the next day, I got a message from the owner of the car. She said, Hey, I ve got your bag. She said, I saw the Facebook post, and I said, Wow, I sure hope that family finds the bag. And then I went to my car, and I said, Holy crap, it s me. I have the bag.   So we managed to get the bag back. And what I got from this story is that people are good. I just know that people were good, are good, and I knew I would get that bag back. It just would take some work on my part, which I really didn t have energy for, but I also didn t want to repurchase all the items from the bag. People wanted to share the post. People wanted to help. And all in all, this was a story of people being good, and we were very grateful we got the bag back. Hannah was no worse for the wear. She didn t know anything had happened. Her bag didn t mean anything to her. That s just part of her disability. Thanks for listening to my story.

I have two children, one boy and one girl. Actually they’re not children, they’re adults and they’re on their own now of course. But I still have a couple of young lives that I’m responsible for. I’m talking about my two dogs, Lilly and Fenway, they are both Yorkies, and obviously I would do anything for those little pups. They’re actually getting up there in dog years now – they’re 12 and 13. But they’re in good health so far, we go for a walk twice a day, and they still love chasing a ball sometimes. But I know they are in their golden years so I’m trying to appreciate every minute I have with them. I think anyone who’s a dog lover can identify with wanting to protect your dog from any type of harm that might come their way. I mean, I don’t want them to run into the street, I don’t want them to eat something that might be harmful, and I surely don’t want them to get into a fight with another dog. My guest today goes by the nickname “T”. Not the word “tea”, just the letter “T”. She found herself in a situation where her dog was in trouble. And she had to make a split-second decision. And I’m gonna do something here that I don’t normally do – I’m gonna tell you ahead of time that today, T and her wonderful dog are doing fine. The story does have a happy ending. I don’t usually have spoilers here in the opener, but I know some listeners would not want to hear a story if the dog doesn’t make it. And I don’t blame you – I wouldn’t want to hear that either. But you’re safe with this one. So I hope you enjoy the story of T, and how she saved her dog’s life. T and Kevin T and Kevin on the water Teachers Pay Teachers https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/store/take-on-triangles Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/258 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): I have two children, one boy and one girl. Actually they’re not children, they’re adults and they’re on their own now of course. But I still have a couple of young lives that I’m responsible for. I’m talking about my two dogs, Lilly and Fenway, they are both Yorkies, and obviously I would do anything for those little pups. They’re actually getting up there in dog years now – they’re 12 and 13. But they’re in good health so far, we go for a walk twice a day, and they still love chasing a ball sometimes. But I know they are in their golden years so I’m trying to appreciate every minute I have with them. I think anyone who’s a dog lover can identify with wanting to protect your dog from any type of harm that might come their way. I mean, I don’t want them to run into the street, I don’t want them to eat something that might be harmful, and I surely don’t want them to get into a fight with another dog. My guest today goes by the nickname “T”. Not the word “tea”, just the letter “T”. She found herself in a situation where her dog was in trouble. And she had to make a split-second decision. And I’m gonna do something here that I don’t normally do – I’m gonna tell you ahead of time that today, T and her wonderful dog are doing fine. The story does have a happy ending. I don’t usually have spoilers here in the opener, but I know some listeners would not want to hear a story if the dog doesn’t make it. And I don’t blame you – I wouldn’t want to hear that either. But you’re safe with this one. So I hope you enjoy the story of T, and how she saved her dog’s life. Scott How did you get to age 50 and having never had a dog? T Well, growing up, my parents would not let me have a dog. They claimed that it was too much work having to take the dog out all the time. We had cats. Cats are so much easier. You just scoop their little box now and then. So they wouldn t let me have one. Then, when I moved out in my 20s, I still had that mindset that it was just too much work. Where I lived in Virginia, it did snow, and I didn t see myself going out multiple times a day to take a dog out in the snow. I lived in apartments or condos, so I didn t have a yard to just let the dog out. So, I avoided that for a long time. Later in my 40s, I dated a man who had 2 dogs, 2 heelers, and I fell in love with them. When we broke up, the loss was the dogs for me. Scott Isn t that funny? T Yeah, I miss those dogs like crazy. They actually became my dogs. They would follow me around everywhere. Scott But when you broke up, he kept them. T Right. They were his dogs. Still never owned a dog. I think it was several months later, I thought, You know what? I have my own house now. I have a yard. I m going to get my own dog. Originally, I thought I would get a small dog kind of like a cat, not too much different. I lived at the time alone with my daughter, and I thought, If I m going to get a dog, I may as well get a larger dog to also protect us. And when you go to the shelter and look for dogs, the little ones are always swept up right away. The medium and larger dogs need homes more than the little ones. Scott That s the way it usually is, yeah. So you would visit the local shelter pretty regularly? T Yeah. I got it in my mind that I was going to get a dog this was in the fall of 2021 and I thought, You know what? I ll start going to the shelter. I went every Sunday and just kind of looked through what was there and visited. It was a lot of crazy dogs that either were barking like crazy or weren t very healthy looking. They had feces in their kennels and things like that. Scott What was your plan when you were shopping here? I mean, if you saw one, were you ready to take it home that day or did you have a timeline involved? T I was just looking with the intent that I would wait until the following summer to bring home a dog because I m a school teacher and I have the summers off. That way, I can put all my time into training the dog. Scott That s a good plan. It s like going shopping when you re hungry though. Sometimes, you don t walk out empty-handed. T After about six weeks of visiting the shelter, there was one dog that I saw every time I was there, and he was so relaxed, and he was just sitting in his bed looking around. He paid attention when I walked by, but he wasn t up jumping and barking like all the other dogs. He looked clean. He looked healthy. Scott What kind of dog is this? T Well, the shelter says he is an Australian cattle dog mix. He actually looks exactly like a Carolina dog. Scott This is the breed that has the natural herding instinct? T Correct, yes. And he does. Scott Okay. This was in the fall, right? T Right, in the fall. So, starting about mid-October, I was visiting the shelter. The Sunday before Christmas break, I had gone to the shelter, and then we had our last week of school. On the last day of school, I was sitting there with my friends thinking, Should I get this dog? Because in my mind, I started thinking that, if I go back there next week and he s not there, I was going to be devastated. I actually took a liking to him apparently. So our last day of school was December 23rd, and on December 24th, I went to get Kevin. Scott Kevin. That s an interesting name. Did you give him that name or was he already named that? T In the shelter, they named him Wilson, and I think it had to do with his color and being like a basketball. Scott Okay. Where did Kevin come from? T Actually, that fall, I was taking attendance at school and started noticing that there are a million names that end in N Dylan, Brandon, Brian, Benjamin. There s tons of them. So I actually started a list and named a lot of my smart devices the same way. So I actually have lights named Gavin, Ethan, Sheldon. Preston is a fan. Mason is the thermostat. Aaron is the vacuum. Anyway– Scott That is the nerdiest thing I ve ever heard, and I love it. T So Kevin was on the list. I ve got an Uncle Kevin, a Cousin Kevin, and I thought that was the name. I knew that when people asked his name and I told them it was Kevin, I would get a smile or a laugh, and I do. Scott That s true. So you brought him home, but he was on some kind of medication, right? T Right. I found out that the reason he was so relaxed in the shelter is because he was on anti-anxiety medication, and I didn t know that. I had filled out all of the paperwork and was walking out the door, leash in hand, and they said, Hey, don t forget to pick up Kevin s med– Oh, they didn t say Kevin, sorry. Don t forget to pick up his medications on the way out. So I found out then that he has anxiety. Scott That seems a little sketchy. T Yeah. Scott Was that a little bit of a bait-and-switch kind of situation? T It is, yes. I mean, I m not surprised, being that the shelter was overcrowded. In fact, that day, I didn t have to pay anything for him because they had too many dogs. Scott Oh. Would it have made a difference in your choice, though, if you had known ahead of time? T No. No. No. I have a child with anxiety, so I ve learned a lot about how to take care of someone like that. Scott You guys were a perfect match then. T Yeah. Actually, yeah. Scott Okay. What was your first night at home with him like? T When we walked in the door, it really didn t occur to me that this was going to happen. At the time, we had two cats and three rabbits. When we walked in, Kevin was extremely overwhelmed by all of the animals, so he was shaking a lot and just kind of put my body over him and squished him and tried to calm him down a little bit, and then ended up exercising him a lot that day. So we took him out. I think we walked him for a couple of hours just to get some of his wiggles out and let him have some freedom. Once we got back, he was able to just kind of collapse and rest for a while. Scott How did the anxiety meds help with that? T I actually didn t give him any medication once I brought him home. The only time I give it to him is if we re going to the vet. Scott No dog likes that, yeah. It sounds like you two bonded pretty quickly. T Well, somewhat. I actually was a little bit afraid for about a week or two, maybe more. Because of all the other animals, I had to keep him on a leash inside the house or in his crate all the time and it was a lot of work when you re trying to just make dinner and do the dishes and you ve got a dog attached to you. So, I was starting to kind of regret my choice, actually. The first night when he had zoomies in my bedroom I didn t know what that was I got really scared. He would keep jumping the fence. The shelter warned me he was an escape risk. He kept jumping the fence, but then he would walk around to the front door, which would make my phone ding because of the camera, and I d go open the door for him, and he d come right back. So he kept coming back. It was several months over time when, eventually, he didn t need the leash in the house. This was so that he didn t chase after the cats and the rabbits every time they walked by. He didn t need the leash in the house, so he was allowed to walk around more. He started being able to sleep outside of his crate. He was in a crate while we were gone for the day. Eventually, the rabbits moved out, and so he basically told me, I don t need to be in the crate anymore during the day, and he started refusing to go in. So I was like, Okay, you re right. So, so with more freedom and, you know– Scott I love this communication, this connection you have with Kevin. It s great. T Yeah. And we actually started teaching him to use buttons to go outside. Scott Oh, how does that work? What kind of buttons? What do you mean? T Have you seen the little buttons they have for dogs? They press the button and it says a word. Scott Oh, just like a mat on the floor? T Yes. So he also used those for a while, but then decided that we were going to use more body language communication instead. But he communicates very well. Scott That s good. Your relationship is evolving. T Right Scott You had a neighbor. Tell us about your neighbor. T My neighbor was a single mom about my age. Her daughter was fairly young I want to say around seven years old. They had a dog named Pico. Pico is a beautiful black pit bull, and she barked a lot. I could tell over time that the neighbor did not have a lot of control over her dog. She didn t seem to take care of her very much. I ve never seen her take Pico for a walk. I ve never seen anyone outside in the backyard playing with her. I ve never seen her at the dog park. She just didn t really get that kind of attention that dogs need to behave. When she would call the dog inside, Pico would not come. She had to scream over and over, “Pico, get your fucking ass in here! Pico! And just the screaming, not yelling. We would hear her screaming at the dog even when they were inside as well. I m in one of those houses where the next house is 10 feet away, so we could hear her all the time, and Pico was a little bit out of control. She would bark like crazy. My trash cans happen to be by their yard, so whenever I went to get the trash, I had to endure the barking and she would put her face up to the top of the wall. Our yards are separated by brick walls, like the cement block walls. So she d put her face up there. Luckily, she couldn t get over it, but I always had it in the back of my mind like, What if she did? What if she did? Our front walkway also comes back that far to our front door, so anybody that comes to my house gets to experience this as well. From right in front of our door, you can see the gate to the neighbor s backyard, and it already had a hole in it that Pico had put there. So at any time, Pico could have made that hole bigger and gotten out. I don t know if anything necessarily would have happened. She s not necessarily a vicious dog or anything. She just needed some care and attention. Scott She needed a responsible owner, really. T Right. Because of this, I had always had a plan in my head of, “What would I do if she did jump the fence? What would I do if she got through that hole? What would I do if she came running after me?” And all I had was to stand tall, put my hand up, firmly and loudly say no. That was what I had in my back pocket. Scott Well, yeah, at least you had some kind of plan. When you would take Kevin for a walk, would Pico bark then? I would assume that she would. And how did Kevin react? T If we go for a walk outside the front door, yes, she would actually bark from inside the house. She would slam herself against the window so hard, sometimes I thought it was going to bust open. He was a little nervous, but we just kind of went on our way. He was not too bad about playing in the backyard when she was there. I said that he was able to jump our wall. He would go out the back where we have a wash. He would go into the other neighbor s house sometimes. Occasionally, he would jump up front, but he would never jump the wall into Pico s yard. Scott It seems like Kevin s personality is kind of the opposite of Pico. T Yeah, he can be very chill. He s usually very quiet. Scott Well, let s fast-forward to the day of the incident. How long had you had Kevin at that point? T That would ve been November of 2023, so I had him for almost two years. Scott All right. And this was Thanksgiving week. What happened? T It was Tuesday, and we re off school Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So, I come home, I m all relaxed, I m ready to take Kevin on a long adventure. I have nowhere to be, nothing to do, and ready to start the long weekend. So we get started. When I take him out, I ride an electric scooter, and he runs along next to me. To head out of the neighborhood, we pass the neighbor s house that has Pico, the dog, and then there s one more house, and then there s the corner. We were about to turn the corner and I heard the neighbor yelling for her dog. Pico had accidentally gotten out the front door. I just kind of froze for a second and I thought, Okay, this is it. This is when we get to see what happens when Pico is free. Scott So there was nothing, there wasn t a fence or anything impeding Pico from getting to you? T Right. We were in front of the houses. Kevin and I were at the corner. Pico chased us to the corner. Part of me thought about just continuing on and just going as fast as we can. My scooter can go 15 miles an hour. Kevin can go faster than that, but I wasn t sure. I thought, You know what? Let s just have them meet, have the dogs meet. So Pico comes over, and they re kind of checking each other out the way dogs do, sniffing each other. Then, Pico started to mount Kevin from behind, and I thought, “It s okay. It s what dogs do. It s no big deal. Scott That seems odd, though. Pico s a female, Kevin s a male, right? T Right, yeah. Scott I hadn t heard of that happening before. T Yeah, I think it s just a dominance thing, like asserting your dominance. You know how some dogs lay down on their back and put their feet up when they re playing with other dogs? They re the opposite. I started getting scared and I can t really describe exactly what was happening, but Pico started getting more aggressive with Kevin. So, at that point, I let go of Kevin s leash. The reason I did that is I had a friend recently who was in the same situation and, because she didn t let go of her dog, didn t have a chance to run. So I kind of took that experience and said, You know what? I m going to let go. He can run way faster than I can, so I ll let him go. So they kind of went at it for a little bit. At one point, they were messing with each other and heading back towards the front of my house. I was still at the corner. I dropped my scooter. Pico started walking towards me, and I did exactly what I had rehearsed in my head. Stood tall, put my hands up, and said, No. She turned around and walked away, so that was a huge relief. Then, Pico got more and more aggressive. The next thing I knew, we were in the middle of the street. Kevin was on his back. Pico had her jaws locked on his neck and was trying to shake him around. He literally shit himself right there. Let me also mention that it s actually a myth that pit bulls lock their jaws. They just happen to be very strong and very stubborn. So the dogs are there, and I m basically seeing my dog getting killed by another dog, and the neighbor was right there next to me, next to the dogs, screaming at Pico to stop. As you can imagine, Pico s not going to listen to her because she never has before. So I told her, Do something! Do something! Get your dog off of my dog! And she just stood there screaming. She didn t do anything, didn t even step in or try to grab Pico or anything. She just stood there screaming. I was screaming. I started screaming for help, hoping that neighbors would come out, but that didn t happen either. Not even sure how much time had passed, but to me it was urgent. That s when I went ahead and reached in and grabbed Pico s jaws top with one hand, bottom with the other hand and pulled them open, and Kevin got free. It took him a second but, as soon as he realized he was free he s a smart dog he ran. Not only did he run, but he jumped the wall into our backyard. Right after I pried open Pico s jaws, she just sat there, she didn t do anything. Then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, she whipped her head around and bit my hand. So I got bitten as well. Scott You must have had so much adrenaline right at that moment. T Yeah, I definitely did because I didn t feel that bite. I actually didn t know I was bitten until a little later. Scott Wow. I would think at this point your concern is to go check on Kevin. T Right. I went through the garage, through the house to the backyard and got him. I don t actually remember how we ended up back in the garage, but the neighbor came over. She must have gone to secure the dog. Let me add in that during this time, she was also yelling at her daughter who was the one who accidentally left the dog out, so she came over and looked at Kevin. I turned him around so you could see his whole neck was basically open. She looked at it and she said, Oh, that s not too bad. And then she went home. At this point, I m still pumped with adrenaline. I was supposed to have a friend over that day but, first, I called my friend Ken. I called him because, at the time, I was single and he was kind of my rent-a-husband big strong guy, familiar with dogs, comfortable with dogs, and has his own. I called him to come over just to tell me what to do next. I had no idea what to do next. I couldn t think of what I was supposed to do. So he came over and we took Kevin to the vet, and we got him checked in pretty quickly. We were lucky enough that the human urgent care was just a few doors down. It was a little strip mall. So while Kevin was being treated, I went over and checked myself in. I ended up getting a few stitches and a rabies shot. I believe it was the staff at the urgent care that notified animal control. Scott They re probably required to do that, I would think. T Right. And I may have had some paperwork to fill out in regards to that as well. So after about I don t know maybe a couple hours, I was released, Kevin was released. We went back to the house. Scott What treatment did Kevin have while he was there? T Kevin had a lot of stitches, but he also had a drainage tube coming out of his neck, I guess, to drain fluid. I actually don t know the answer to what that was about but, basically, they said, Yeah, it s going to be drippy for a day or two. So we did have to go back eventually to have that removed and have his stitches taken out. Scott All right, so you get back home. How do you come down from that? That just seems like the most exciting day ever, not in a good way. What happened that evening? T Tuesday night is trash night, so I did have to go take the trash cans out to the street. I m pretty sure the neighbor was waiting for that to happen so that she could come and approach me. She did, and she asked how Kevin was doing, and I told her that he had stitches and a tube, and I also told her that I had been bitten, which she did not already know. She was surprised by that. She kind of blew that off, and she said, I would like to offer to pay Kevin s vet bill, but if it s okay, I want to do it in payments. At the time, I didn t have any of my brain power left, so I was like, Yeah, sure. That sounds good. I know that she is on disability and working part-time, so that would be the reason that she wasn t prepared to pay it all at once. When I thought about it further, I was like, No, I don t really know if I trust that. I would have to have something in writing. Scott Yeah. I mean, you were making a decision there. You didn t even expect her to offer that probably, and your brain is already kind of haywire from what happened that day. T Right, yeah. And I didn t want to talk, so just saying yeah was the easiest thing. Scott You said animal control was called. What did they do? What action did they take? T That evening, animal control called me. Basically, that was just to get the information and my side of the story. I m guessing that they also called her and got a story. They told us that they were going to come out for a home visit for both dogs. So, the next day, the animal control officer came to visit. They first visited the neighbor s home, and I knew they were there because I heard all of the barking because Pico barks whenever anyone other than her family is there. She barked the whole time. I heard the screaming, “Stop it! Shut up. And so I looked out the window and saw the van. I m like, Okay, they re coming to my house next. I was ready. The officer came over, walked in, and was super sweet to Kevin. He sniffed around her a little bit, and then went ahead and sat down and waited quietly. The officer remarked, made a comment about the difference between the two homes and the two dogs, and she was like, Wow, it s much quieter over here. It doesn t smell as bad. So even though we had six animals in the house, I m a clean freak. She asked us some questions. We were told that we had to quarantine for 10 days, so Kevin could not go to the park or out for walks. He could only go in the backyard, which was tough for him. Actually, sorry, probably not, because he was in recovery. The officer did an evaluation on both dogs. She didn t do much with Kevin. The animal control officer called me the next day after that visit. It was sometime in the morning, and she said, Okay, we ve done our evaluation. The evaluation is a point system so that if you have a certain amount of points or more, that your dog is deemed aggressive. There might be higher levels than aggressive, but that s the one I know about. So they decided that Pico is aggressive, and I said, Okay. She also told me there s nothing that they do in this situation. I know that some states have different laws about what happens if a dog bites a human, but they don t do anything. They mark it down on the permanent record, and if something else happens, then they might do something more. Scott So just the label aggressive doesn t really have any ramifications then? T Right. That evening, I noticed that the animal control van was in front of the houses again, so I was assuming that they had gone to talk to the neighbor. I heard them talking outside in the driveway, so I thought, You know what? I m going to go for a walk so I can listen in on this conversation. Scott It did kind of pertain to you a little bit, right? T Well, yeah. I mean, I could have probably just stood there and listened and not been looked at funny. So I heard the officer tell the neighbor, We have decided that Pico has scored enough points to be labeled as an aggressive dog. And the neighbor lost it, and she said, How? What? How on earth could you label my dog aggressive? The officer said, Well, first of all, she bit a human. And the neighbor said, Well, she put her hands in the dog s mouth, basically implying that it was my fault that I got bit. Then the officer, I think, did reply with something like that. She had mentioned something about being let out, “Oh, that you had let her out without a leash. And the neighbor said, Well, that was my daughter s fault. She accidentally let her out. So she was blaming her daughter, which all the puzzle pieces went together in my head right away. She is not taking any accountability. Nothing s going to change. She s not going to do a better job training her dog. She doesn t think she did anything wrong. She s going to blame everyone else. So that really got me fired up. I had been talking to a lot of friends. Of course, I m telling the story to all my friends, and a lot of them are saying that I should sue her. I didn t want to do that because it creates this awkwardness, and she s my neighbor and it appeared that she was going to be my neighbor for a very long time. I know I m going to be in this house for a long time and, given her limited income and the change in the housing prices, I thought, “There s no way she could move. There s no way. She can t afford to move.” So I figured we are going to be there for a long time, and I didn t want to create that situation between us. But it was at that point when I realized that she wasn t taking any accountability that I decided that I would seek legal representation. Scott So at this point, you still have the same bad neighbor. She has the same dog. Was there any change in how you felt as far as being safe? T Yes. Both of us, Kevin and I both actually were changed. When we would go out to the backyard to play, if Pico was outside– actually, let me note that shortly after this. The neighbor got another dog, a little yappy dog. If Pico was outside and we went outside, Pico would bark. Kevin would immediately turn right around and go back into the house. He would not play out in the backyard. Sorry, I skipped a part. Let me go back. The week after we returned to school from Thanksgiving, I got an email that a student of mine had been attacked by three dogs, three pit bulls, and I was like, wow. I guess I feel kind of lucky right now because this boy was in the hospital for 10 days. When the boy returned to school, I asked him, “How did the attack end? How did the owner get the dogs off of him?” He said that the owner ran into his house, he got his gun, and he shot the gun into the air, and that scared the dogs enough to get them off of him. When we started, when Kevin and I started being allowed to go out on walks again, I was absolutely terrified, not just of Pico, but of any chance of any dog getting loose and coming at us, so I actually started carrying bear spray and it seemed like a good idea. However, it s very windy here. Most of the time it s really windy, and bear spray is going to end up going everywhere. If I had used bear spray on Pico when she had her mouth around my dog s neck, it would ve gone in Kevin s face too, so it s not really the ideal weapon. I did research other ways in case something like that happens again. I could have tried to get my garden hose and aimed it full blast right at her butt. You can also stick something up their butt usually helps. That s not something I really want to do. Scott No. And going to get the garden hose– I mean, you might not even be close to a garden hose when it happens. T Right, exactly. And also, it s not foolproof either. You can try all kinds of things but dogs are very stubborn. So when I heard about my student who had been attacked by the dogs and how he had gotten out of it, I thought, You know what? I m going to carry a gun. I already owned a gun at that time, but I didn t use it, and I also didn t know how to use it. It was my dad s. He had passed away, and I took it. I did know how to shoot it ever since I was a little kid, but I didn t know how to load or unload or take care of it or anything, so I had my friend Ken come back, and we worked on that. We went to the shooting range, we practiced all the things, and eventually I got a smaller weapon that I could carry. I m a very small person, so carrying a 9 millimeter on me is a little awkward. So I ended up getting something smaller that I could carry. People were trying to talk me into something with a higher caliber, and I was like, No, I m not trying to hurt anybody. I just want to be able to, like, make a dent, get out of a situation like that. They were worried about me getting– like, if I wanted to use it against an attack from a male, I was like, No, I m not really worried about that quite as much. So I started carrying a gun everywhere I went, unless I was leaving the house in my car. Every time we went on a walk, every time I took out the trash, every time we went to the dog park, every time I took out the trash, when I went to get the mail, I had it on me. Scott This was a traumatic experience. Did you go to therapy at all? T I did. That was actually at the suggestion of a lot of friends who were suggesting the therapy, and so I did. I did go to therapy, was treated for PTSD for about six months. I didn t feel that it was very helpful, to be honest. I just felt like that with time. Time was what was going to help me in setting up my defenses, being ready. The main problem was something that I could not do anything about, and that was just the fact that when I walked out of my house, I was afraid. I didn t see any other way around that other than having my defense ready. Scott What was the result of the legal action? T I went to see a personal injury lawyer, and he took my case. He s a dog lover, too. Basically, I just had to communicate with them every now and then. I had to send them all of my medical bills and vet bills and pictures of my wounds and Kevin s wounds over time as they were healing. Eventually, he came back with a settlement, which covered the vet bills and then some.. Scott How long did that take from the time of the attack? T I got the actual settlement check in August of 2025, so almost two years. Scott I know those things don t happen quickly usually. Now, there is one good thing that happens here. What was that? T Let s see. Last March 2025, I was at work, and my boyfriend sent me a picture of the neighbor s house with a U-Haul truck parked in front. Got a little excited, but I did not want to get my hopes up. Maybe she s just getting rid of some junk or moving in some junk or something. I did not want to get my hopes up. The two of us watched. Over a period of a week, that truck was there, and we waited– there was no for sale sign in front of the house, so that was another thing that we were worried about. But over time, it did appear that she was moving out. What ended up happening was she did a bailout, so some investors came in and bought the house and moved her out, and that was just such a huge relief because I honestly thought I was going to be living like that for many more years. Scott How s Kevin doing now? T Kevin is still a little bit more cautious than he was before. He s super happy in our backyard. We have new neighbors who also have a dog, who you wouldn t know they have a dog if they didn t tell us, other than the backyard. Our other neighbor on the other side got a dog, and nobody is scared. When we go to the dog park, though, Kevin is a little more discerning about who he lets near him. So if it s a dog, he seems to know right away. If it s a dog he doesn t want near him, he will get in their face and bark and almost show teeth a little bit. Never snap at a dog or anything like that, just kind of give them the warning of, I don t want you near me. He does that with probably, like, 70 percent of the dogs that he meets, so I think he still has a lot of caution in him. Scott Yeah. That s probably a good thing. T Yeah. Scott Do you still carry a gun? T I actually do not, I think, and I told myself, “You have this defense prepared, and then you kind of let your defenses down when everything seems great, right?” Told myself I wouldn t do that, but I really don t like carrying it. It s just uncomfortable for me. So no, I don t carry it anymore. If we were ever in the same situation again, I would do the exact same thing and it could end worse next time, but hopefully not. Scott Well, I m really glad this story ends with you and Kevin being happy. T Yeah. Scott And it sounds like with your neighbors, this is like a happy dog neighborhood now. T Right. Very. Scott Well, thanks for sharing your story. T It was a pleasure Scott I really enjoyed talking with T, and of course I’m happy that she and Kevin are doing well. I wanted to mention a couple of things. First, you heard in T’s story that the aggressive dog was a pit bull. But any breed of dog can be aggressive. I’ve encountered lots of pit bulls that are complete sweethearts. There’s a saying that I mostly agree with – there’s no such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners. Having a dog, and being a responsible dog owner, takes time and effort. Unfortunately there are people who have dogs who probably shouldn’t. And as a result, some breeds get an undeserved bad reputation. If you’d like to discuss this, come on over to the Facebook group and leave your comment on the post for this episode. WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook And the second thing I wanted to mention about T is something she told me about that is completely unrelated to her story about Kevin. T is a high school geometry teacher, and she’s involved with this program called Teachers Pay Teachers. This is what she told me about it T Teachers Pay Teachers is a website where you can go to find things that you need for your classroom as far as lesson plans, worksheets, slideshows there s all kinds of digital activities really anything you need. You can buy things for a single lesson. You can buy things for an entire unit or an entire semester it s got all grades from K-12 or you can also create your own things to sell there. So we re selling to each other and everything is pretty low priced unless you re buying an entire year s worth of material, of course. But usually, worksheet activities run between free and four or five dollars. Scott We’ll have the link to that in the episode notes, and you can also see pictures of T and Kevin there – that’s at WhatWasThatLike.com/258. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai. And now, it’s time for the Listener Story. Every main episode of What Was That Like ends with a short story that was sent in by a listener. Why don’t YOU send in a story? Just record it on your phone, around 5-10 minutes, and email it to me – [email protected]. This listener talks about a mishap on a snowmobile. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener story) Just thought of another little story. Not sure if it s A-worthy, but here it is. Years ago, I was on a snowmobile trip with a bunch of friends up in northern Ontario, Canada. We were staying at one of my friend s parents places. One day, we rode all day long and into the night. The snowmobile I had back then was quite a bit of work to ride, especially on corners. You really had to sit up and lean into them if you had any kind of speed going into them.  When we went out in the morning, we passed a hairpin turn that we all tried to make note of because it snuck up on you, and we were worried that we d miss the corner on the way back in the dark. It was a long ride. By the time we were heading back in the evening, I was getting pretty tired. When we were getting fairly close to being back, we met the groomer. After that, the trails were nice and smooth, but they were also very slippery. Being that I was tired and it was dark, when I came to the corner, of course, it surprised me. To this day, I still don t remember the accident, but one of my friends was right behind me and saw the whole thing. Basically, what happened was the corner surprised me, and also I didn t lean into the corner, so my snowmobile slid sideways and high-sided, which means it slid until the skis hit the edge, then it tipped on its side. When it did that, it shot me off headfirst into a tree. It was a tree that had grown into two trees. My head went in between the two stems and my body wrapped around it. I was unconscious for about five minutes, they say. They were pretty worried that I wasn t going to be okay, as I kept making groaning noises. When I woke up, the first thing I remember was hearing my friend, Greg, saying something derogatory that I m not going to repeat here. My first words when I woke up were, F you, Greg, and that s how they knew I was okay. My one friend had a snowmobile with two seats on it. So a few of them stayed with me, and the rest rode back to drop off a snowmobile so they could come back and ride mine back as I was in no shape to ride it myself. I still don t remember parts of the ride back. When we got back to the cottage, my friend s mom was worried about me and insisted she took me to the hospital to get checked out. When the doctor took me in, she was in the waiting room, or she stayed in the waiting room, and my friend and I went into the room. The doctor did a couple of tests and sent me back into the waiting room for results or something. Just for precautionary reasons, he put me in a neck brace and also put me in a wheelchair. Well, neither my friend nor I, thought to warn my other friend s mom about this. The look on her face was mortifying when she saw me. We had to quickly explain to her that I was okay and it was just for precautionary reasons. I still feel bad about this to this day. We should have warned her. When I was talking to the doctor, he said when I get back, I need to buy a new helmet, and I said, No, it s fine. It only has a few scuff marks on it. He looked at my black eye and my bruised lip and told me, If you did that to your face with a helmet on, you need a new one, sir. My poor friend had to wake me up every couple hours that night. I felt so bad for him as well as my other friend s mom. Aside from facial marks, the only injuries I had were a couple broken or cracked ribs. I consider myself very lucky because a little faster into that corner or a little more either way, and I might not be here to tell the story.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What s the nicest thing a stranger has done for you? Links for this episode: The Wet Taco: https://www.facebook.com/p/The-Wet-Taco-61552268228210/ Just Watch: https://JustWatch.com Be My Eyes: https://www.bemyeyes.com/ Shelby and Scott Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

Have you ever had a really big vision of doing something, and then the way it turned out was actually very different from what you had planned? I think this is almost universal for us as humans. Think back to when you were a teenager. You probably had some ideas about becoming an adult and what that would look like. What kind of career you might have, or not. Finding a partner if you wanted one. Thinking about being a parent, or not having kids at all. A lot of young people have this vision of how they think their life is going to play out. And at that age, we don’t really have enough experience to know that those things almost never actually play out exactly as you expect them to. I mean, just by listening to the guests that I talk to here on the podcast, we know that things happen that we never would have imagined – and life can take a completely different path. My guest today is Mae. In high school, she had her life planned out. She had already met and was in love with her life partner, and they were going to get married as soon as they could, and they were going to have children, and live happily ever after. That’s not what happened. This episode has a content warning for domestic abuse and graphic sexual violence, because the fairy tale life Mae had planned gradually turned into a nightmare. Until she finally decided that she’d had enough. Mae Resources: Crisis Center brochure (Castle Rock, CO): https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Crisis-Center-Brochure.pdf Domestic violence safety planning: https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Domestic-Violence-Safety-Planning.pdf How does domestic violence affect kids? https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/How-Does-Domestic-Violence-Affect-Kids.pdf Keeping your children safe: https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Keeping-Your-Children-Safe.pdf The National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1.800.799.7233 National Resource Center for Domestic Violence: 1.844.762.8483 Local in Colorado: Rose Andom Center: 720.337.4400 Local in Colorado: Porch Light: 720.853.8850 Local in Colorado: Gateway Domestic Violence Services: 303.343.1851 Location in Colorado: SafeHouse Denver: 303.318.9989 If you’d like to contact Mae: email: [email protected] Mae’s website: https://MaeScottOfficial.com Mae’s book, An Embarrassment of Pandas: Exposing an Abusive Family and a Flawed System, is available here: https://www.amazon.com/Embarrassment-Pandas-Exposing-Abusive-Family/dp/B0G548WTHP Her FB: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61577182454783 Her Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maescottofficial/ Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/257 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Have you ever had a really big vision of doing something, and then the way it turned out was actually very different from what you had planned? I think this is almost universal for us as humans. Think back to when you were a teenager. You probably had some ideas about becoming an adult and what that would look like. What kind of career you might have, or not. Finding a partner if you wanted one. Thinking about being a parent, or not having kids at all.  A lot of young people have this vision of how they think their life is going to play out. And at that age, we don’t really have enough experience to know that those things almost never actually play out exactly as you expect them to. I mean, just by listening to the guests that I talk to here on the podcast, we know that things happen that we never would have imagined – and life can take a completely different path. My guest today is Mae. In high school, she had her life planned out. She had already met and was in love with her life partner, and they were going to get married as soon as they could, and they were going to have children, and live happily ever after. That’s not what happened. This episode has a content warning for domestic abuse and graphic sexual violence, because the fairy tale life Mae had planned gradually turned into a nightmare. Until she finally decided that she’d had enough. Scott What do you think when you hear someone use the phrase high school sweethearts?  Mae Now, I cringe a little bit when I hear high school sweethearts, and I ll admit there s still a piece of me that thinks, Oh, that is so sweet. It s very romanticized, and we still have these ideas, these fantasies of happily ever after. Scott Yeah. And of course, that s when you guys met. What attracted you to your ex-husband first?  Mae It s a little bit embarrassing, and I ve come to terms with all of this over the years in therapy. I think truly what attracted me to him at first was how attracted he was to me. I was a very skinny, awkward teenager who was very insecure, and there was somebody who was paying me a great deal of attention, and it was very flattering, and it felt good. I didn t realize as a teenager that what was happening was love bombing and this very over-the-top almost addiction to somebody. I didn t have the language for that. I didn t know any of those things. But I think the initial attraction was honestly just that he liked me a lot.  Scott Yeah. As a teenager, you don t really think about– I mean, you probably never even heard the term love bombing at that point, right?  Mae Correct.  Scott And he just went all in right off the bat.  Mae Yes, and it felt nice to be showered with attention like that, to have notes left in my locker, and to have him waiting outside of my classes to walk me to another class, to be calling a lot. We didn t have text messaging back then, but we had some AOL Instant Messenger to be getting those messages and to have him invite me out to lunch every day and to show up at my house as a surprise. But, in hindsight, that was strange. We had known each other for a few days when he first told me he loved me and all of that felt really good. Scott I mean, that was in high school, but even as an adult, I think people would find it hard to distinguish “Wow, this is really true love” versus somebody being just manipulative  Mae Yeah, and I think your body is just flooded with hormones at the beginning of any kind of relationship. It is very difficult to determine what is just lust and attraction and excitement compared to some of the more logical things. And of course, as we get older, I think we pay more attention to logic and think, Hey, I might think this person is fantastic, but how can I love somebody when really I don t even know them? I don t know this person s middle name or favorite color. I don t know anything about them, really. I think a lot of it too is we love the idea of what this might be, and we create these scenarios in our head of, Oh, this is it. This is my Prince Charming, and this is my happily ever after, and it s going to go exactly as I imagine it s going to go when none of that really is based on the facts or even who this person is. And that s unfair to that other person, and I have admitted that before. It was not fair of me to dive right in with him back then because, same on my part, I didn t know him, and I was just kind of blindsided in what I thought was a good way by all of these nice things and I got sucked into it. Scott And that was in high school. Did you also go to the same college?  Mae We did, yes.  Scott Okay. And you guys just jumped right into life pretty quickly.  Mae Yep. From the time we were 15, 16 years old, he would talk about how if we were 18, he would want to get married, that he was just ready to start this very adult life together, and would ask me questions like, Well, what s the point of waiting if we know we love each other, if we know we re going to be together? We know we re going to get married. We know we re going to have kids. Why would we wait? What is the point of waiting? And I have found myself, not just with him, but with other people, when they bring up their point of view, I am very curious about it, and I really take it into consideration and I thought, He makes a good point. Why would we wait? Who cares if everything he s saying is right? And it kind of overrides my own logic. As an adult, I really have to keep myself in check with stuff like that even now. I really subscribed to everything that he was saying and people around us were envious, and that felt kind of nice too. All of our friends and thinking like, Oh, I have to go to this party and try to make small talk, and, I don t want to do that, and we re over there just thinking like, “We did it right and we lucked out, and people want to be like us. Scott Looking back on it now, do you think he was really in love with you then?  Mae That is a great question. I don t know. I think there were a lot of things that he liked about me that were very appealing from a young age. We were in a couple of classes together in high school. He did not like to do homework or schoolwork but I did, and he would copy all of my answers. He benefited from my hard work as a teenager, and I think he probably liked that a lot. I was a bit of a bookworm, didn t have a ton of friends or other things going on, and so I was able to provide him a lot of attention from the beginning, and I think he liked that. Maybe he was trying to mold me into this person that he wanted me to be in the way that I think I was probably doing the same to him in some form or fashion and, again, that just was not fair to either one of us. But I think we genuinely did care about each other at some point along this journey. I know that I loved him.  Scott Okay, so you got married. Were you still in college when you got married?  Mae Yes. We had one semester left of college when we got married.  Scott And how old were you when your first child was born?  Mae I was 23. So we graduated from college and both went to graduate school, and he wanted to have kids. I mean, again, even when we were teenagers, he would talk about wanting to have kids. I have a sister who had a baby, and she was actually pregnant at our wedding. I used to want to buy things. This was going to be my first niece or nephew. I was so excited about it, and he would get angry with me back then and say, Why are you spending all of this time and energy on this other child when we could have a baby? We could be building our family. That s where your energy should go. And when we started graduate school, we did a little bit of the math to say we shouldn t have a baby until we re done with graduate school. As soon as my second year of graduate school started, I got pregnant and I finished classes, and our oldest was born about a week later after graduation. Scott How involved was he as a father?  Mae At the beginning, not at all. I mean, he was present. Right? He was there for the birth of his child, all of those things, and he immediately went to work, which really was okay. What was really hard for me was I m a first-time parent, I have this new baby, and the expectation was that, just about every single workday, I would come meet him with the baby for lunch. That was very hard. I know it maybe doesn t sound like it, but trying to get the baby ready, and we re in the middle of, like, blowouts, spit up, sleep deprivation, and get myself ready all the time. I wasn t able to like rest at all because I had to drive across town and go sit at a restaurant with him and his family because they all worked together, and kind of put on this face of, Oh, so happy, not tired at all, and then drive back and the baby– oh man, she was a screamer in the car. It was so stressful.  Then, when he would come home, the expectation was that I pivot my attention to him and he really struggled with No, I need to feed the baby or whatever I was doing with the baby. If I went and met him for lunch, you better believe that he would hold the baby all through lunch, really like flaunting, because we re in public and this is what is being seen. And going over the top with things like gifts for the baby and for Christmas– I mean, he built her a bed that was like a castle with a slide, but it was all for show, and he d post it on the internet and on Facebook, so it would appear that he was involved. He would show up at– as she got older and as we had more kids, he would show up at sporting events and make his public persona a very involved father.  At home, when I tell people that I did everything, I cannot stress or emphasize that enough not just for myself, not just for our children, but for him. I mean, from meal planning to grocery shopping to cooking to all of the dishes all of the time, all of the cleaning, all of the laundry, all of the outside yard work. If it snowed, I was the one shoveling. I would schedule all payments for our bills. I did absolutely everything for him and myself and the kids and the pets.  Scott It sounds like everything he had to do was go to work. Hey, look, I m a provider. Right? Is that the mentality? Was that how he was brought up? Is his family like that?  Mae That was the mentality. His dad is an attorney and he then was an attorney, and his two brothers were attorneys, and they all ended up working together. Their mom is like their paralegal admin support person very, very enmeshed family that when I first kind of joined, I thought, This is so cool. They re so close. They just spend so much time together. Me not seeing clearly the boundary issues that were prevalent there. You re absolutely right, though. That was kind of the deal, and we talked about it of, Hey, you go out and you provide for us.   I was really more than happy and willing to do all of the other stuff. I m thinking, I will work hard inside this home, for our family, and you work hard outside of the home for our family. What I came to learn is he was physically leaving the house. He rarely worked. He had a couch in his office where he would often just go take naps. He would go golf during the day and not in a way of building your clientele or networking. He would just go golf. He would go play hockey in the middle of the day, go work out in the middle of the day. He was rarely working, and he would just take partnership draws from the firm and pay himself, even though he wasn t billing those hours to clients. Not only that, he kept us in very high amounts of debt, of unsecured credit card debt, and I would ask questions about it, and I would just be told that the firm owes him hundreds of thousands of dollars. He s going to take care of it. He ll pay off all the credit card debt as soon as they get even with the law firm. I never knew what I was talking about when it came to money. I was able to see all of the accounts and see just how awful it was. I mean, every bill we had to pay came from our checking account. He would have to go take money from the law firm so that then we could pay a bill, whether it was rent or eventually a mortgage. “Robbing Peter to pay Paul” is what he was doing. I would ask if I could please work, and any time that came up, I mean– I m sure you could believe the things that were said to me, but just how selfish I was. Like, what would that do to our children if I went to work, and how could I even fathom this? The part that used to make me so upset about those conversations is he would say to me things like, Hey, when we got married and had kids, you agreed, you said you wanted to stay home with the kids. And I agree. “Yes, that is what I said, and that s what I m doing, and you agreed to provide for our family and be able to pay the bills, right? And we can t do that. So I m holding up my end of the bargain in my eyes, and you re not.”  The other part that was really hard for me that made me really start questioning things at an early stage, but I kind of just put it on the back burner, was this understanding from him that I wasn t allowed to change or grow or be any different, right? I said when I was maybe 18 years old that I wanted to stay home and raise kids. And now, in my mid-20s, it has to be the same. I still have to want the same things.  Scott It s interesting that– as with any narcissist, it always comes back to him and how he appears to everyone else, and you having to get a job, that s not going to look good on him as he s supposed to be the big provider. Do you remember the first time he put his hands on you in anger?  Mae I do, and it wasn t actually something that really raised concern for me because, at this point, we had been married about 10 years at this point, and I had gotten used to a lot of his kind of manipulative behavior, and I excused so much of it, and I blamed myself for really all of it. The first time he ever put his hands on me in a physical sense– we had been at a neighbor s house, and we had been drinking, and we came home yelling at each other. The kids were already in bed, and he was saying really mean, nasty things, and I was just going to stay downstairs in our house, not go upstairs and go to bed, and it was a big deal to him that married couples sleep together in the same bed every night. So, he tried to drag me up the stairs to go to bed.  I decided to go limp because I didn t know– I mean, he was physically stronger than I was and I didn t want things to escalate more, so I thought, I m just going to sit here. I m not going to go upstairs with you and I m not going to make this any easier for you to try to bring me upstairs. When that happened, he had his hands around my arms, so I had bruises on my arms. And as he s dragging me up the stairs, I don t know if he lost his grip or if he just got tired of it like I don t really know but he dropped me and my chin hit our stairs, and I had a– it was a small bruise, but it was one of those really deep ones. I actually took photos of that when it happened. It started to trickle in a little bit of I don t know what I m going to do with these photos, but somewhere in my brain, I was thinking, This isn t right and I might need this. But at the same time, I thought, You know what? We were drinking. I m sure I said not-nice things. I probably provoked him. We re just going to water under the bridge. I used to have an incredibly avoidant personality, so I wasn t going to bring it up again. It was just going to be like, “We re going to move on.” Scott You had mentioned that you have a scar or a bruise that s apparently permanent. Mae When we went to criminal trial, there were three nights that his charges stemmed from, and one of them was called the Pindustry incident, and that was the name of a local bar where everything kind of started. That night, he was in a terrible mood. Things escalated. There were physical altercations in the alley behind the bar and the grocery store that were over there. I believe he broke my ribs that night. I was not allowed to get medical attention. That was just about five years ago, and I still get pain in the exact spot where it happened. I was pushed up against this brick wall and he had his forearm across my throat. I grabbed some dirt that was nearby and threw it at him just to try to get away, and he took all the dirt and he was shoving it in my mouth and up my nose and in my hair, and it was so awful.  He finally, after a couple hours, agreed that we could go home and I remember feeling such relief. Okay, we just are going to go home. This will be a forced time to calm down because we had to have an Uber.” The plan that night– nobody drove that night. It was all going to be having a night out with friends for a birthday and then taking an Uber home. The Uber ride was horrible. He was making a lot of threats while we were waiting for the Uber that I had to have sex with him in the back of the Uber, and if I didn t, I would be sorry. I remember thinking, I m pretty sure you re not allowed to do that in an Uber, but I didn t know if he had made arrangements. I didn t know what he was capable of.  So he was forcing my hands on him in the Uber. When we got home, again, I just thought, Okay, we re home now. It s going to be fine. It s going to be fine. It escalated astronomically that night even when we were at home. He raped me on our couch and it was very violent. I mean, it was, like, hair grabbing and forcing himself inside my mouth. With that, it was anal penetration. It was horrific. I ended up running out of our back door and jumping the fence into the neighbor s yard, and I m completely nude. At this point, it’s maybe 1 in the morning or something I don t even know exactly what time it was and I m thinking, like, I have to go back because the kids are there and I don t know what he is going to do. So I went back.  Again, I was kind of hoping Okay, we had a little bit of a break. We had some time. I could not have been more wrong. Again, I came back to the house and he physically brought me upstairs. We had a walk-in closet. For the next about two hours, I was on my back in the closet. I had made the mistake somewhere along the line of telling him that my chest really hurt. I was on my back and he had me straddled and, for hours, he just continued to hit and poke the spot on my chest.  Then, on my left thigh, with his right hand, he just was hitting my legs, and I had bruises in the shape of his hand. One of them was just so profound and so deep that it is– we had an expert witness at the criminal trial explain that these really deep bruises, it basically is a scar. I mean, it s gotten smaller over the years. Like I said, it s been almost five years now, and it s still there. It just looks kind of more like a skin discoloring now more than a bruise. But I mean, it was very clear his hand in print and I had photos of all of that as well that were submitted into evidence in the trial. Sometimes I still get a little sad really because I like to run for physical activity. On hard runs when I am using my lungs a lot, it hurts still where my ribs were injured and it just is sad to me that I have these permanent physical reminders and pain too in addition to all of the emotional things from him, and for him to this day to sit there and say he never did anything– Scott That s just incredible. It s unbelievable that someone could be like that. Was that incident any kind of a wake-up call for you that, Wow, I need to get out of here and take the kids and never see him again ?  Mae A little bit. At that point, we had been in marriage counseling for about a year. The morning after it happened, when we woke up, I mean, he just had this look of– he looked like he was mortified. He had his hands palms up and he was like, I am so sorry. He was like, These hands are not for hurting you, but it wouldn t have happened if you hadn t been flirting with your friends while we were out.” Scott Back to you… Mae Mm-hmm. It was always turned back around to whatever I did. There was never any genuine apology. So, of course, although he s saying it ll never happen again and he is agreeing to finally get himself some counseling– at this point, he is saying basically he ll do whatever I want, whatever it takes, that this will never happen again. But the irony maybe of it is, of course, he didn t get counseling. He didn t do any of the things.  I gave this to the district attorney, but they didn t use it in the trial. Right after that happened, the day after it happened, I went to the library and I checked out “Forgiving What You Can t Forget”, “Inside the Minds of Angry Men, Why Does He Do That?” Like, all of these things. Even after that, I m taking it upon myself to fix this and make it okay. At this point too, the threats had gotten more significant. While this was absolutely the most violent he had ever been with me before, over the years leading up to that since we had started marriage counseling, the threats of me never seeing my kids again, that if I dared to leave him– again, I m a stay-at-home mom and he s an attorney with a family of attorneys, and I was terrified. So I really didn t think that leaving him was an option no matter what.  Scott Yeah, you were trapped. Yeah, that thing with, Look what you made me do. It seems like that s just a pattern with a lot of domestic abuse. He was finally arrested after you guys had attended a wedding. What happened that night?  Mae This would ve been almost a year or more than a year after the Pindustry night. We were at a wedding for his friend. I didn t even really know anybody at this wedding, and it was at a town only, like, 30 minutes south of us, but we decided to make it a little bit of a getaway and an overnight. There was a young man at the wedding. I was at this point maybe 37 and this person was 24 and he just was flirting with me unabashedly. His grandma came over and intervened at one point and said I m sorry. He s had too much to drink. He just really likes you, whatever.” And my ex was upset at that.  Also a very common pattern in our marriage was this sexual control and coercion, and he wanted to have sex that night after the wedding. It had been one of those days. It was a weekend, yes, and our kids are all in competitive sports. The day had started at 6 AM taking kids to sports, driving everybody everywhere, and then driving down to this wedding, going to the wedding. Now the wedding s over, and it s midnight, and he wants to have sex, and I just said, I just am so tired. I can t. I just don t want to, really. Also, when you re being jealous and angry, that s not attractive to me at all.”  We were in this little cabin that had a bedroom where we were, and then his good friends were in the loft upstairs, but it was open and it was, like, paper walls anyway. So, we were fighting in the bedroom about having sex, and they heard us fighting, and they actually called out, and they were like, Hey, is everything okay down there? And I said, Yep. It s just who he is. This is just him being himself. This was not new to me at all.  I had learned to kind of play possum when he got upset because nothing helped at all, and I didn t ever want to make things worse or be accused of making things worse. He would threaten to video tape me a lot during arguments and the same thing. So I just learned my safest thing to do is just pretend I m sleeping, and that s what I did that night, and that made him very angry. I mean, it always made him angry but, again, I felt like I was damned no matter what I did, so this just felt a little bit safer for me. So, I was pretending to sleep and he was kind of hitting me, but not super aggressively. Come on, wake up. Wake up. Wake up. This is not time to go to sleep. This is time to have sex. This is time for you to prove to me that you love me. That was a big pattern as well.  I just was ignoring him and his MO– all of these nights that we talked about, the first thing he would always do was take my phone from me. He was, like, rooting around trying to find my phone, and I don t think he could find it. He d been drinking, so he was not getting a reaction out of me, so he just kind of kept hitting me and smacking me, and finally he said he was going to leave.  So when he left, I was texting his parents because they were with our kids. And I m like, Hey, he s intoxicated. He was hitting me. I don t know where he s going, but please just keep the kids safe. Because at this point, there had been so many threats about the kids over the last year and a half or something, and I didn t know, again, what he was capable of. They said, We ll reach out to him and we ve got the kids. We ll keep them safe.   So I just stayed in bed and, of course, he came back. Same thing, I just kind of pretended to be asleep, but I had left my phone out after. That was my mistake. He came in, he took my phone, and he s yelling at me, he s hitting me more, and I m just not responding to him. So he pulled me out of the bed and was trying to physically force me to be up, and I wasn t doing it. I wasn t allowing that, so he pulled me out of the bed, and he was sticking his fingers everywhere in my anus, in my vagina, like everywhere and just trying to maybe get a reaction out of me. I don t even really know.  I kind of crawled back into the bed, and he started sticking his fingers down my throat and you can see because the police came and took photos there are just these perfect marks on the roof of my mouth like crescent shapes from his fingernails, and I can taste blood. I m still not responding at all, so he sticks his fingers up my nose and pulls me into a sitting position and smashes his hand on my face, and I thought it broke my nose. I opened my eyes and there s just blood. While he had been very violent in the past, he had never made me bleed before, ever. It hurts so much. It s so sensitive all the cartilage in there and I m seeing all this blood.  He had my iPhone in his pocket, but he didn t take my Apple Watch off my wrist he normally did that too. So, I pushed the SOS button on the Apple Watch and it connected, and he s standing there and he s Really? This is what you re doing? You re really going to call the police? And the call connected, and I was able to tell them that there was a dispute and give them where we were. When he realized that the call connected, he left. When my phone was far away from my watch, the call disconnected. They called back and he answered the phone. I will tell you, in criminal trial, for at least 45 minutes, I was questioned by the defense. Their questions were, “How did I know he had my phone?” And I was like, Well, yeah, I saw him put it in his pocket. But how did you know he had your phone? And I m like, Well, because the police told me when they apprehended him that my phone was with him. Okay, but how did you know? And I m thinking, “He answered the 911 call. I don t understand.”  Scott Yeah. Where is that going? I don t understand that.  Mae Well, because one of his charges was about taking my phone– it s like a false imprisonment charge. He took my keys and my phone, but it was just so ludicrous. I m like, “Because he answered the call.” Right? And it s funny because, in my head, when I would tell people what happened, I was like on a spy show and I m hitting the button on my watch and I m like, Hello, 911, we have a domestic disturbance. This is where it is. Well, if you listen to the 911 audio, I am just, like, hysterical. It s funny how our brains do things to protect us, but hearing the audio really broke my heart for me and how scared I was.  911 Operator 911. What s the address of the emergency? Mae We have a domestic dispute.  911 Operator What s the address?  Mae I don t know. I m at a Jellystone in Larkspur.  911 Operator Okay. Has it been physical?  Mae I m sorry, I don t know.  911 Operator That’s okay. Do you have a campsite number?  Mae I think it s like 195. 911 Operator Okay. And again, has it been physical at all?  Mae Yes. Mae He also was an avid hunter and had his concealed carry permit, and he had his gun with him that night. He always had his gun. And with the escalation, I thought that was really why I called the police. The blood scared me, but I thought, This is it. He s really going to kill me tonight. Tonight is the night that it happens. Scott He just sounds completely psychotic and just blinded by rage. Okay, so the cops showed up to where you were, but he was gone. Right?  Mae Correct.  Scott How did they find him?  Mae I actually don t know the details of how they found him. I think, because I had talked to his parents, again, I used our friend s phone to call his parents, and I think they saw and recognized how severe this was and it did not look good, and I think they were trying to find him as well. It sounds like his dad found him in a grocery store parking lot. I don t know if his dad maybe told the police, Hey, this is where he is. I really don t, even to this day, know the details of that, but they did come and arrest him. One of the things that they showed in trial was that he s talking to the officer and he says to the officer, I need to figure out how to spin this because I m an attorney and I know this doesn t look good for me. And like you said, I mean, completely kind of just, blinded by rage but also– when I hear things like that, I m like, “There was a lot of logic still happening.” I went to the hospital with the police. I did full sexual assault exam. They had their special cameras to document everything, and they wanted to medically make sure everything was okay, like, with my nose. I didn t have my cell phone, so I had to call somebody to come pick me up, so I called my parents, and that was horrible because I didn t want them to know.  Scott How much did they know already about how it was going? Mae That s a really good question. They knew things were not great. They knew we were in marriage counseling. I had told my mom a couple times that I felt like one of us was not going to make it out of the marriage alive and I never really went into detail. I just said, “It s so bad. And she didn t press me. I think she was trying to let me talk about it as I felt comfortable, but so much of my goal was to protect him still. I didn t even tell our marriage therapist or my individual therapist how bad things were. After that Pindustry night, we had a counseling session two days later with the marriage counselor, and he was like, You can t tell her. You cannot tell her what happened. I could get in trouble. So I was very protective of him also because, no matter what, this is the father of my children too, right? And that was really confusing for me. And so people knew– because I m also not a very good liar, and so people could kind of tell that I wasn t very happy, I wasn t doing great. But I would also minimize and be like, “We have kids, it s hard, it s stressful. You guys get it. Life. It s just a lot. It s a phase. And so my parents didn t know very much.  I m very close with my parents and I think, for a long time, and maybe even still to this day, that they felt like they should have done more, they should have known, and I have tried to absolve them of all of that.  Scott Of course, yeah. As a parent, we re supposed to protect our kids, but you kind of made that decision for them by not telling them really all the bad stuff that was happening.  Mae Exactly.  Scott What was he charged with that night?  Mae From that night, he was charged with a sex assault crime for sticking his fingers in me, and there was the false imprisonment with the phone and the keys, and a physical assault charge for the injury to the nose and hitting me. But the majority of his charges came from that Pindustry night. So ultimately, five felonies and four misdemeanors. That s what he was charged with.  Scott One of the charges was child abuse. How did that happen?  Mae That was from the third night. It was a New Year s Eve incident from 2021 into 2022. We had COVID at our house, and so we were all just home and it was just us. My daughter and then my ex were the ones who were positive in that go-round of it, and he just was miserable that day because I m sure he didn t physically feel well, but there was a lot of feeling sorry for himself too, that he had COVID and it s New Year s and this is such a bummer. The kids were bummed as well because we would usually see friends and that kind of thing. We just stayed home and it was fine. It really was fine.  I got our youngest in bed and he was asleep, and then the bigger kids and I decided to watch the ball drop, and it s midnight. My oldest said to her brother just something kind of typical sibling of Ugh, I can t believe mom let you stay up until midnight. When I was your age, she wouldn t have let me stay up until midnight. Their dad heard that and just went off on her about, “She s so disrespectful. She can t talk to her brother that way. She s not his parent. This is so out of line.” He had very big reactions to a lot of things, and this was one of them, and she was so hurt and so upset, and she ran up to her room. I went up to check on her, and he came in and still was just in a complete rage. I mean, he was not drinking that night because people often ask if it was all surrounding alcohol or, and it was not. He wasn t drinking, and he just is screaming at her about just being a terrible person. So, I was like, Enough. Come on. Go to bed. You got COVID. It s after midnight now. We re all just going to go to bed. And he just would not stop.  So, what I would typically do when he would get really upset is I would call his parents for help. They were always my first call. They knew. They knew everything. They knew what was going on. So I took out my phone, and I called his mom. When he saw what I was doing, he tackled me for the phone. It did connect and she heard something and she said, after the fact, she thought we were just calling to say Happy New Year and that it was, like, all the noise of Ah, New Year s! She had no idea that this was–  So he wrestled me for the phone, and we kind of fell on our daughter s bed and then on the floor. I m clutching this phone like it is my lifeline, to my chest. Again, I m on my back and he s on top of me.  Our daughter, who was about 14 at the time, came and jumped on his back and was like, Get off my mom. Get off. Stop it. He just moved in a way that threw her backwards and off of him, and she hit her head and she blacked out, and he didn t stop. Even with our child now maybe concussed or something, he did not stop.  He finally got the phone, and he picked up this plastic cup of water that was there, and he threw it on the ground. The cup a plastic cup shattered. That was like how hard he threw it. Her room was always kind of like her sanctuary I think, for a lot of kids, it is and now, her bed is messed up because like he threw me on the bed. Her carpet is soaking wet. Her head hurts. All of these things. They were able to charge him with child abuse from that night, but she was the only protected party on the protection order because the boys– one of them was sleeping and the other one was just kind of in the doorway and didn t physically get hurt.  Scott So he got arrested. At that point, what did you actually want to have happened? Did you just want him to go away, be in prison and be done or just get a divorce?  Mae I think, the night he was arrested, I really just wanted it to stop. I wasn t thinking beyond any of that. I certainly wasn t thinking that he was going to prison. It s funny you say that because I had a counseling session, like, three days maybe after he was arrested, and it was with our marriage counselor. We had switched– we had a male marriage counselor now, and I m telling him what happened, and he was like, He s going away for a long time. I just started bawling and I was like, What? No. There s no way. My friend was over, so I went downstairs because it was a telehealth session and I just fell into her arms, and I was like, They say he s going to go away for a long time. And she was like, Yeah, I think he is. And then I was like, That s not what I wanted. I wanted him genuinely–” and this sounds, I know, so naive and hopeful. “I just wanted him to be a better person. I wanted to still be married and have this life together that I thought we were going to have. I just wanted him to get better.” Scott It goes to court. First of all, he s an attorney. Did he represent himself?  Mae No, he did not. He did a lot of municipal law for little towns around us. The district attorney had told me who my ex s defense counsel was, and he was like, They went with the best of the best. Unsurprisingly, they got, like, the best defense attorney that money can buy.  Scott All right. Now, in court, one of the things that they brought up in defending him was the color of your underwear that came into play and this blew me away. What did they say?  Mae Yeah, I was testifying and the defense attorney asked me what color my underwear was the night of his arrest, and I said it was red. And she asked further, “Was it like a matching set of bra and panties?” And I said yes. She asked if it was lingerie, and I said no, because it really wasn t. It was just a red bra and underwear. She asked me, “Doesn t a red bra and underwear indicate consent?” And the district attorney jumped up and objected, and it was overruled, or it was sustained. His objection was sustained. I didn t have to answer that question. It came up again later in her questioning I mean, that was the overt questioning and the DA again, he said, “I want it on record for the court if this is the way the questioning is going, that red indicates consent and you can t then charge somebody with a crime if the victim is wearing red. Our judge, I thought, was phenomenal, and she really kept control over everything and, kind of, I think, at that point, the attorneys approached the bench or something, but it was ludicrous, and I imagine that the jury agreed with that. The district attorney had told me at some point during the trial, it s not a good look when the defense is attacking a victim and blaming a victim. The jury typically doesn t like that.  Scott They re trying to defend behavior that s indefensible, and to bring up something like “You were really giving consent by what you were wearing,” I mean, that had to be kind of a positive sign for the district attorney because it seems like they re just grasping at straws. They re trying anything even as silly as that to try to defend him. He was found guilty. Did they offer him any plea deals before that?  Mae Yes. So throughout the process, the district attorney I felt was phenomenal, and he would include me in a lot of the process because he was saying that I was the one most affected. Right? So when they would talk about plea deals, he would call me and say, This is kind of what we re thinking. What do you think? We don t want to minimize any of your experience. There were a few plea deals that were offered and, for all of them, he would have had to plead guilty to at least one of the felonies. We felt like what had happened was felony level, right? I mean, obviously that s how the charges were, but that he needed to plead guilty either to the felony sexual assault or the felony physical assault charges because one of his charges from the Pindustry night was a strangulation charge they were very serious things. I said I want him to plead guilty to the misdemeanor child abuse charge because I want for the kids, for their experience to also be validated in all of this. I think the best offer on the table at one point was the felony, sexual assault, and the misdemeanor child abuse. Plead guilty, probably no jail time, but there is some judicial discretion in there, and maybe three months in county jail, and every plea deal he would just say, “No, he didn t do anything. No, no. no.” And I would imagine– I have really no idea, I m not an attorney, but based on just logic, I would imagine that his attorneys were telling him to take the plea.  Scott It seems like it s a conflict from him thinking logically, Yes, I can take the deal and be done with this pretty quickly, but his ego overrode that. Mae Yeah, and his image. There s no exact science to disbarment. He didn t know if he d be disbarred but he could have been disbarred, and admitting that he did something– what could that do to him and maybe his entire family and their firm? I don t know how much pressure maybe he had from his family to do things one way or another. But yeah, it was a hill he was going to die on, that he did not do anything.  Scott So he went to trial and, obviously, found guilty. What was his sentence?  Mae He was sentenced to 12 years to life, and the reason it s an indeterminate life sentence is, in order to be eligible for parole when you have sex crimes and domestic violence charges, at least where I am I m in Colorado offenders have to work programs for both of those. There s a sex offender program and then a domestic violence offender program. Scott While he s in prison.  Mae Correct. And the first part of both of those things is admitting what you did writing letters to the people that you hurt and taking accountability, and he won t do those things because he says he didn t do anything. So that piece of it that makes it that he might not ever be eligible for parole if he doesn t work the programs. The other part of it is and the district attorney told me things are ever-changing, but the way that the current climate is that, if he s eligible in 12 years or whatever it is, and we go to the parole board and say, “Really, I don t even have to have a reason, but I don t feel safe with him being released, they are taking that heavily into consideration. My kids all wrote victim impact statements that were read at sentencing and if they were to say, We don t feel safe, or, We don t feel comfortable, whatever it is, and, “My ex was a very punitive person. I was punished constantly in the marriage when I filed for divorce.” And it was obvious to me.  He s just trying to punish me, and I don t feel like I m that kind of person. I don t feel like I m very vengeful or out for blood about any of this. I think it s all just very honest that he has shown that he is very unpredictable, and he has a lot of access to things. He had a lot of guns, and he did have to turn them over to his brother. He has access to these things. He, in my opinion, likely feels like he has nothing left to lose. That s very scary for me and the kids. We hear about people killing their spouses, significant others, ex’es. I mean, I hear about it multiple times a week, and those are only the ones that I feel like are making the news. It s a very scary thing, so we ll see kind of how things play out. But yeah, it s 12 years to life.  Scott And it s to your advantage, of course, that he s still kind of holding out that, I didn t do anything, and he s not going to do those programs and write the letters or have any kind of remorse or anything. But a life sentence because he can t– well, he s just being who he is.  Mae Yeah.  Scott Yeah. Your kids are now 18, 14, and 9. How are they handling this? And do you think they ll ever want to have any kind of relationship with their father?  Mae We keep that door open, and we do talk about it. I mean, they were all in counseling, and it s now more, as needed. We did family counseling. It is something that I still discuss because, like I said at the end of the day, that s always their dad and I was never trying to erase him or replace him. I just needed him to be, like, a safe person for them to be around or to have a relationship with. So, at this point, they have decided they don t want contact. The oldest is still on the protection order, and she could always ask to be removed if she wanted to. One of the things that I have tried to communicate very clearly with the kids and part of why it comes up again is because I want them to really know this is I will never be upset with them if they choose to have a relationship with their father, ever. It doesn t hurt me. It doesn t make me insecure in my relationship with them. These two things are separate. I have a relationship with my father and I love my dad, and I don t want to take that away from them if that is something that they want. And I imagine as they go through different ages and stages, it might come up for them in different ways. I don t know my oldest is graduating and going to college if she s going to even bring him up. Might she say, “He s deceased?” I don t know. She might say he s in prison. She might say he s not around. I don t know what that s going to look like. I just need them to know and I remind them too that none of this was their fault, ever. These were his actions and all of those things. But they ve come a long way.  It was so hard. I mean, there were months of them crawling into bed with me every night crying and not going to school. My youngest had a very real fear that, actually, my ex-in-laws were going to kidnap him. He didn t want to go on school field trips. He didn t want to ever– if I walked outside to get the mail, he would have a panic attack. He s like Oh, no, did they get my mom too? It was really hard for a long time, but they have come so far. I mean, we all have, but they re incredible  Scott You have written a book about this, and the book goes into a lot more detail about the idea of how the system failed you and the betrayal of your in-laws, because there was a long time that you trusted them. So people can get all that. The book is called “An Embarrassment of Pandas: Exposing an Abusive Family and a Flawed System.” Where did that title come from?  Mae A group of pandas is called an embarrassment. Just about every group of animal has a name. When we were married in that nuclear family, pandas were a big part of our family. We actually went with my in-laws to the San Diego Zoo to see the pandas. My kids loved pandas. It was the youngest. We didn t find out the gender. They called him a panda. They just were a prevalent animal. When all of this happened– and I ll clarify too for listeners, the criminal justice system actually didn t fail me, which is maybe surprising because a lot of people are failed by the criminal justice system. It was the civil courts and the divorce courts that very much was the issue with that and the betrayal from my in-laws because, like I mentioned, I called them always. There was a reason I had never called the police until the night that I did.  I called them. They came over. They intervened. They talked him down. They were slipping me cash, trying to help me get in a position where maybe I could leave him. I mean, they knew everything. They were keeping an eye on him at work to make sure he was working. When I called the police, they just said, Nope, I ve never heard any of this. What? She s making it all up. She brainwashed her children into saying that, that they saw and heard these things. None of this is true. That hurt more than anything that my ex ever did because I knew who he was. But for some reason, I was thinking that he was like an anomaly, whereas really that s what that whole family is. Right? They are all very narcissistic, very enmeshed, very abusive, very delusional in their perception of reality in all of this. So I felt like their behavior during this was very embarrassing, and I just felt like pandas were important to us. Like, a group of pandas is already called an embarrassment, and so the title just seemed very fitting. Scott It gets people s attention for sure as well. All right. Well, people can contact you through your website, maescottofficial.com, or by email. We re going to have links to all of those things as well as your socials in the episode notes. What s your reason for wanting to get your story out there?  Mae There were a couple reasons. The first most motivating one to me was, when I was going through all of this, I felt so alone. You asked earlier about support. I have incredible family and friends. I have so much support, and I am eternally grateful, and I wouldn t be where I am today if I didn t have all of them that is for sure and I still felt so alone. I felt like nobody had ever gone through this before, and if they had, they certainly weren t talking about it because there s a lot of shame in those things too. I wanted to help people feel seen, that, “Hey, you re not alone. Even though my story is not your story, there are those common threads and elements that come with toxic relationships or unhealthy things and betrayals and navigating court systems.” So that was my initial motivation to help other people that maybe were in the same boat as me.  And then the second part I mean, I know I said I m not out for vengeance, and I m not I wanted people to know what he and his family did because they are still hiding behind this image of we re perfect. But it s like, “No.” And you know what? If you don t want somebody to talk about these things, maybe you shouldn t do those things. But I have been very transparent and honest about– my part in any and all of it, of even saying from a young age, Hey, that wasn t fair of me to get in a relationship with someone that I didn t really know, that I just wanted to mold into this person that I wanted him to be. That s not fair for me. I called him names. That wasn t fair. That wasn t right. I can point out all of my part in this and take accountability, and I do that in the book.” And for them to say that they were just perfect and this perfect image, I m like, No, I m sorry, you guys are going to be exposed a little bit about your part in this, because I just feel like they should. And that, to me, was kind of gratifying also because they don t get to just deflect more and point fingers when the truth is that they need to look inside themselves.  Scott It s all out there, yeah. Is there any part of this that you want to talk about that I haven t brought up?  Mae I don t think so. I mean, we could probably do a whole other episode on family court, but that s not no offense almost not as interesting. Right? It s kind of boring. Kind of crazy things, but not as interesting.  Scott Yeah. But do you go over that in the book too?  Mae Yeah.  Scott Okay. Yes. All right. Mae, you are an amazing woman. Thanks for sharing your story.  Mae Thank you so much for this platform to do that too. And I thank all of your listeners too. I mean, you have a phenomenal podcast. I had no idea how deep it all went until we were kind of connected by Bill, and I was looking– there are some wild stories on here. So yeah, thank you for bringing that to light. Scott If you or someone you know is in a situation of domestic violence or abuse, you’re not alone and you don’t have to be stuck there. Mae passed along a LOT of resources designed specifically to help people in that kind of situation.  A few are specific to Colorado since that’s where she lives, but most of them offer help to just about anyone. Links to all of those things, as well as Mae’s email address for anyone who would like to contact her directly, are in the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/257. When Mae sent me her story, part of what was included was her brief bio. This is what it says: I’m Mae Scott, and I’m just me.  I am a hard-working, dedicated mother of three vibrant humans.  I am a social worker by trade.  I am a survivor by circumstance.  I am an advocate, writer, speaker, and supporter by choice.  I was trapped in an abusive marriage and controlling family for nearly 19 years, and I am now a free woman.  Everyone deserves freedom.  Everyone deserves peace.  Well said, Mae.  And I want to say thanks to my friend Bill Mitchell. He’s the host of the When Dating Hurts podcast, and he has conversations with survivors of domestic abuse all the time. Mae told her story on his show, and he then said she should contact me about being a guest on What Was That Like. Bill’s a great guy, and an amazing advocate. To find his show, just search for When Dating Hurts on any podcast app. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And now it’s Listener Story time! We end every main episode with a story that was sent in by a listener. These are about 5-10 minutes long, and it’s just something interesting that happened to you. And we’d love to hear YOUR story. Just record it on your phone and email it to me – [email protected].  This listener talks about a scary incident with her baby. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener Story) My story takes place about two years ago when my daughter was six months old. My husband and I are first-time parents, so we re navigating all the firsts together, and thankfully, most of those are really happy, exciting, and sweet. However, this one night was really scary. We were co-sleeping up until this point, so she, my daughter, was new to her crib. However, she was doing great, and we chose to keep the crib in our room. This one night, I woke up to gurgling and, before my brain even comprehended what was happening, I was already standing up, reaching in to grab my daughter from her crib, and she was choking on her vomit I don t know for how long which was probably the scariest moment because you think of the worst. Is she inhaling this? For how long has she been struggling?  So I flipped her over and she threw up four more times projectile vomited. I didn t know a little body could hold that much liquid. The whole time this was happening, I heard no crying. There was no breath in between, and so I m like What is going on? because she has never thrown up before. She wasn t even a drooly baby. I mean, no acid reflux, no problems. Truly a perfect baby.  I just ran her into the bathroom and cleaned her up and was looking at her. When she was finally done throwing up, she did cry, and it was music to my ears that she was breathing. She looked okay. I checked her stomach and her chest and everything looked fine. Her lips looked healthy. They weren t blue or anything, thankfully. But I did rush her right away to the– we have a children s emergency care here, which was wonderful, and so we went there. Maybe I was overreacting, but we had to wait in the waiting room for a long time, and I was so anxious the whole time. Thankfully, though, my baby was acting fine, as if nothing had ever happened, and I m over here growing white hairs like crazy.  So they finally take us back, and they say there s absolutely nothing wrong with her, and she s fine. Obviously, I was so relieved to hear that, but it was just so out of character for her that I was worried that maybe something more could be wrong. They said it s probably just acid reflux. I took her home and I didn t sleep for the next two nights, but she has never thrown up again since, and I m so incredibly grateful for all this time I ve got with her.  She s so smart. She knows her planets, and she can count, and she knows her alphabet, and she s talking up a storm. I m just really thankful we chose to keep her crib in her room because I can t imagine the alternative of what could have happened if she wasn t and I didn t hear her. Hold your babies close. Thank you for listening.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What s an animal you d love as a pet even if it s unrealistic? Links for this episode: The Earth Species Project – decoding the language of other animals: https://earthspecies.org/ The Magic To-Do List: https://goblin.tools/ToDo emeals: https://emeals.com/ Financial Peace University: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/money/financial-peace Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

Today’s episode deals with a controversial question: Should a person be legally allowed to get medical assistance to end their own life? And keep in mind, this usually pertains to someone who is terminally ill, and who is also mentally and emotionally stable enough to make that decision on their own. Here in the US, most states still do not allow it. But Medical Assistance in Dying is legal in all of Canada. That’s where Courtney lives. Courtney told this amazing story on the podcast about four years ago. It’s the story of her mother’s decision, and it’s both wonderful and heartbreaking. And stick around after, because I was able to record a chat with Courtney to get an update on what’s happened since we last spoke. Courtney and her mom Holding the sign outside the hospital window for mom to see Courtney and her husband on their wedding day Courtney with her brothers Courtney with her daughter Courtney s dad with his new ride If you’d like to contact Courtney: [email protected] Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/256 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Today’s episode deals with a controversial question: Should a person be legally allowed to get medical assistance to end their own life? And keep in mind, this usually pertains to someone who is terminally ill, and who is also mentally and emotionally stable enough to make that decision on their own. Here in the US, most states still do not allow it. But Medical Assistance in Dying is legal in all of Canada. That’s where Courtney lives. Courtney told this amazing story on the podcast about four years ago. It’s the story of her mother’s decision, and it’s both wonderful and heartbreaking. Probably want to have some tissues handy. And stick around after, because I was able to record a chat with Courtney to get an update on what’s happened since we last spoke. Scott What s one word you would use to describe your mom? Courtney I don t think it would be possible to do one word. When I think of her, I just think of a hard-working farmer s daughter who just did absolutely everything for her family, for myself, and for my brother. She always put us first every single time and she always put herself last. Scott Tell us who was in your immediate family. You mentioned brothers. Who else is in the family? Courtney There s me I m 36 and then my brother he s 34. My mom met my stepdad when he and I were probably, like, three and five years old. They had my youngest brother, who is 24. Scott How old was your mom when she was diagnosed with cancer? Courtney She was, like, a month before her 60th birthday. So, she was 59. I remember it was September of 2019, and her birthday is in October. She phoned me and said, “I just want to let you know that I had gone to the doctor. They found a lump in my breast. They re sending me for tests. It could be nothing. It could be something. No need to panic. I just want to keep you in the loop and discuss this with you.” So, I said, “Okay. There s nothing I can do about this now. Let s wait to see the test results before we really get worked up about, maybe, something that s potentially not an issue.” So, it came back and it was obviously breast cancer. She was going to start chemotherapy the day after her 60th birthday. My brothers and I said, “We need to do something really special not just because of this but because it’s going to be her 60th birthday. We need to really, like, do something great.” So, for her 60th birthday, we got my entire extended family my grandma, aunts, uncles and cousins and all of us rented this big room. I was at a restaurant. We had a really nice dinner. We got her and my stepdad a hotel downtown where I live, overlooking the water with a balcony. One of my good friends is a photographer. So, as a surprise, I got him to meet us down there before dinner to take a family photo because I don t know why I did that we didn t have one. We had a family photo from when I was, maybe, 13 or something but she was a mom, she took the pictures, so she wasn t in them. We were all dressed up and it was super fun. So, I just really wanted that memory. Maybe, in my mind, too, I thought, “Who knows what s gonna happen?” Selfishly, I really wanted that family photo. So, we did that and it was wonderful. The picture is blown up in the house it s huge, it s gorgeous and I m really thankful that we did that. Scott My mom s the same way. She loves when we don t do it often enough when all the kids and everybody gets together for a family photo. That s like the best thing for her. Courtney Oh, yeah. It s the best thing. The funny thing is that my brothers and I always made fun of her because every photo she would take was blurry it didn t matter what it was. It could have been a race car going by or a flower in the garden. It was always blurry, so we always teased her about that. It was quite funny. Scott I m guessing that you organized that restaurant dinner? Did that have anything to do with the fact that you re the firstborn? Courtney Yeah, pretty much. I m the oldest and the boys are boys they just do what they re asked of basically but we know we were all on board. We sort of threw around some ideas and one of them booked the hotel and we all split everything. But yeah, for sure. It was mostly my idea, but they were definitely on board and super helpful. Scott That evening has to be just such a great memory for all of you. Courtney It was so nice. We have photos and selfies. My mom just looked so happy, I remember, because she was starting chemo the next day. There are some types of chemotherapy where you don t lose your hair. They had said that she would lose her hair in this type of chemo. She always really liked PINK, the musician the girl, PINK. She always had this shaved side or whatever. So, she said, “Wait till you see my hair for the dinner.” I said, “What are you going to do?” She said, “I m not telling.” She had this new outfit. She showed up and had a little bit of makeup on. She d gone to the hairdresser s. She had shaved the sides of her hair off, so the top was really long and she had, like, French braided back. It was really gorgeous and it really, really suited her. She felt so cool and she looked really cool. She was super happy. So, we have those pictures. She got color in her face and she really loved that time together. Scott We ll have that family picture on the website for this episode then so that people can see that. She started treatment the next day… Courtney She did. She started chemo the next day. I mean, it wasn t easy. She was pretty sick, but not really as bad as I thought if I remember correctly. She was sick and she didn t have a lot of energy, but she was a trooper. I think it was only four weeks later when she lost her hair. So, that was, like, a big change for her. I remember ordering her these, like, little stylish beanies. She really loved camo, so it was, like, this little camo beanie specifically for people who have lost their hair to chemotherapy. So, you can wear them in the summer it s not like a winter toque or something. I remember sending her a bunch of those and she really liked that. She did chemo and she did radiation on the breast, and that all seemed good. Then, once chemo was complete, she had breast surgery in March of 2020. She did really well. I think my brothers and stepdad were there while I was stuck at work that day. Yeah, she did pretty good. I mean, as soon as she got home, it was basically March of 2020. COVID hit right at that same point. So, pretty soon after that, we had to be super careful because of how sick she was. We had to protect her regardless it was a lot with COVID. Scott So, her immunity, obviously, was already compromised in some ways. Then, March of 2020 was when it all started. Did she continue treatment after that? Courtney She did, I think, a little. In April, she was sort of feeling off-balance, a little disoriented, and things like that. So, she went for a checkup or something of the sort anyways and they found that, at that point, she had a brain tumor. So, she had brain cancer at this point when we were, like, very hopeful with the breast cancer. I mean, not to downplay it, but my family doctor reassured me and said, “Nobody wants to have cancer but if you re going to get it, breast cancer’s the one to get. It s highly treatable. Chances are you going to be fine.” Then, when my stepdad called and told us, I just couldn t believe it. Like, I don t really want to admit it. Like, who s going to come back after brain cancer? So that was really scary. Scott What a surprise. I mean, it almost seems like they re unrelated. Courtney Definitely. As far as I know, they were. So, in April of 2020, she had to have brain surgery weeks after COVID had just started, and that aspect alone was really scary. My mom and my stepdad did absolutely everything. They were never apart. They were together. I say “my stepdad”, but he s my dad. They were together for 30 years and they just had, like, a love that I ve never seen. So, it was heartbreaking because he had to drive her to the hospital and drop her off at the front door for her to walk in and have brain surgery. It was terrible. My brothers and I were at home and we were helpless. We couldn t go. What do you do? You just do the dishes, cut the grass, and get your groceries. It just feels really gross to not be involved in some way. Scott You have to feel like you re helping somehow, but all you could do is sit and wait for somebody to tell you what the developments are. Courtney For sure. And because the hospitals were so chaotic at that point, we found ourselves really relying on her to phone us and update us, which was just another layer, right? The nurses and such would call my dad and give them updates, but we were relying on her to text her or phone that she just had brain surgery. I remember when she FaceTimed me that night and she looked great. She was like, “Well, I have a little bit of a headache” and I laughed so hard. I said, “Yeah, you think?” So, she made a bit of a joke about it but, again, she did great. She had to spend, I think, a week in there and I just felt so sorry that I couldn t be there. She said, “Well, I actually like it. With the brain surgery, I don’t want loud noises. I just want calm. I don t want my phone. I don t want to watch a show. I just want to sit here and be quiet. If everyone was allowed in here, it would honestly just be way too much.” I thought, “Okay, good. Great.” So that honestly made me feel much better. Scott She sounds like a really resilient person. Courtney Oh my god. Just yes. Going back, it was that surgery that made us feel how helpless we were. I live in Ontario, Canada, and this is in Kingston, actually. The hospital is KJH and it s right by Lake Ontario. I wanted her to, like, feel our support and our love, so I made this huge 3’ by 3’ sign. On a white sign in massive black letters, we wrote, “We love you.” Me, my partner, my daughter who was 3 or so at the time and my brother and his now wife went down, stood on the helipad, and held this sign. She was seven stories up, so I called and said, “Look out your window!” and she did. She could see us and it just felt so good. So, we were on the phone with her at the same time. It s like, “Can you see it?” She said, “I can see it.” I could hear her telling the nurses, like, “Come see this. Come look! These are my kids!” It was really great. She took a picture of us from the seventh floor and sent it to us later, and we look like little ants, but it was really nice. That was one of the photos that I sent to you. That s my brother he s on the phone talking to her and I was hugging him. When I look at that picture every day of my life, I just think that this is the most raw and the most real photo I ve ever been a part of in my life. Scott In what way? Can you elaborate on that? Courtney I mean, when I just look at it, I just feel all the love that we had for her at that moment and, like, how good it felt to show her that we were there. I was hugging my brother so tight and I was loving him. At the same time, the hug is because I feel so sad for him. It s just a raw photo. Scott That s a real photo. A lot of times, in family photos or snapshots, you smile for the camera and don t really even think about it, but you were really in the moment there… Courtney Yeah, my sister-in-law took that and I m just so grateful. It s a wonderful memory of “We couldn t be there in the hospital” but it was really great. She was so happy and just felt so good that we had done that, and that makes us feel good. Scott Yeah. At the time when that picture was taken, even though she wasn t in the picture, you knew she was feeling happy at that moment. Courtney Absolutely, yeah. She probably spent another week there at the hospital and then came home. Her life was full of appointments, checkups, this and that, so she was pretty busy. In June of 2020, she did radiation on her brain for the spot in which they did the surgery. It seemed to go well. In September of 2020, she started chemo again. This time, she did the pill form last time, she had to go to the hospital and get hooked up to the IV. So, she did that and she probably didn t, like, feel the best but, by October, she was feeling really good. Her hair was coming back. She liked it. It was really curly. She said, “All I want to do is to be able to go outside and have enough energy to cut the grass and go back to that hard work. I want to go cut the grass.” So, she did it. She accomplished her goal. She got out there. She cut the grass. Dad sent a picture of her just smiling and being so proud of herself, and we were really proud of her too. It seemed really good. I don t know how one has brain cancer and, then, can continue on this life totally healed and be great. To us, she was doing it and we were all in the clear. I mean, it was still a road, but we had sort of thought that we were over that hump. Scott Did you and your brothers live nearby? Were you all local to each other? Courtney Somewhat. I mean, we re only 30 minutes away, Scott So, that s not bad then. Courtney No. We could easily go home and we did. Sometimes, we stood at the window. After her first brain surgery, she got into the hospital and went home. My dad propped her up in front of the window and opened the window a little bit it was COVID so we were careful. We stood in the driveway, talked to her, dropped off some food, and whatnot. I mean, that was really hard. You just want to be able to hug that person, but you have to look at them through a window. Scott Yeah. When they re most desperately in need of a hug, it must be really difficult for a lot of people during that time. Courtney Right. So in our family, we re so close. We went home every Christmas even as adults. Most people pop into their parents house and have dinner. We went home every Christmas, spent the night on Christmas Eve, had drinks, played board games, laughed our heads off, spent the night, and we all woke up Christmas morning. I mean, even after I had my daughter, we take her to my mom s house and we d all do it together. So, December 2020 was the first Christmas that we spent apart because she was so susceptible, and it s COVID. My youngest brother is a paramedic, so he s out there doing his thing who knows what he s doing. My brother works on a job site. I was working at a university here with just the highest COVID rates. So, it really was best to stay away. So, that was an experience to not be together for Christmas. Again, we were really hopeful and she was getting her energy back. In the spring, it was my grandma s birthday, so she would come to that and not in a wheelchair or anything like that she was good. She walked around. There are pictures of her and my grandma. We had cake and the whole thing. So, we really were thinking that we were coming to the safe zone. It felt like things were going back to normal. Scott Did she feel that way too? Like, “I m glad I ve beaten this.”? Courtney Yeah, I don t think we said cancer free, but that was definitely what we were thinking. All of our tests were great. Everything was great. Everything was coming back. She was doing all the right things. Like I said, she had energy and there was color in her face and all those things. So. in June of 2021, she was feeling I don t remember how she was feeling honestly. I think she was just feeling unstable and that sort of thing, so she went and had an MRI. Actually, one of my cousins is the MRI technician there. So, she did the MRI and she looked at my mom and said, “You need to go down to the hospital and just to have a conversation with the doctor.” She looked at her and said, “Why?” She said like, “Just go have a conversation with the doctor.” Obviously, if everything were fine, she would have gone home and there would be no reason for her to send her to the hospital other than something bad. I remember my mom telling me that she just looked at my cousin and she said, “I m going to die, aren t I?” She said, “Just go. Just go down there.” So, she did. Again, my dad dropped her off at the front door and they found that the brain tumors were back. Yeah, the brain tumors were back. So, in June of 2021, she had a second emergency brain surgery, and that was really tough. That time was really scary I mean, not that the other times weren t. Due to COVID restrictions, at that point, they would let my dad or one person go in and see her it didn t matter who. It could have been one of my brothers. It could have been myself. It could have been my dad. But, whoever that person was couldn t change. So, if I had gone on day one, no one else would be allowed in except myself. We wanted her and my dad to be together. So, he went in. I remember just having just such a bad day, and I just wanted to see her, and I wanted to just be near her. I remember going to the hospital and thinking, like, “I was so slick. I was going to just be super cool about it. Knowing the rules and knowing that my dad was the one on the list, I was just gonna fake it and try to pull one over.” So, I went in and I said, “Hi, I m just here to see my mom.” They said, “Okay, great. What s your name?” I said, “Courtney. Okay, let me just call up.” So, they called up and I was like, “Oh, well, that was easy.” The nurse on the other end of the line must have said like, “Oh, well, her dad was already here, so whatever.” Obviously, I was found out. Scott You didn’t pull off that caper… Courtney I didn t. I tried my damnedest but it didn t work. I remember she said, “I m really sorry you can t go up” and blah, blah, blah. It wasn t her fault. I just, like, hated that girl so much. I walked outside and phoned whatever nurse was upstairs on the floor, and begged her. I said, “Please. I will wear 20 masks. I will stand in the hallway. I don t care. Please let me come.” She said, “No, you can t.” I remember just sitting out front of the hospital in the evening and sobbing. I just cried. I felt so helpless. Again, what could I do? I just drove home. Scott I m sure that nurse felt your pain as well because she probably has to tell other people the same thing. Courtney Yeah. So while she was there, amidst the brain cancer, it had gone everywhere it was in her skin, her lungs, breast, brain, and lymph nodes. It was just everywhere and it wasn t going to be stopped, so that was really hard to come to terms with that was in June. I remember, in July, one of my best friends who I ve known since I was little and I have daughters the same age, and they just love each other. So, we ve been friends for over 30 years. Anyways, we went to her cottage for the night just us and the girls. The girls had gone to bed. We were sitting by the fire and having a glass of wine, and she s a nurse at that hospital. Obviously, it was COVID and she was having a really hard time. She was stressed out and all these things. I don t know what provoked me to say I felt like such a shitty friend something like “Oh, you re feeling down? Let s really get into it. What s the worst thing that you ve ever had to do?” She said to me that it s not the floor that she works on that s not her specialty but there was a doctor who needed help with a medically assisted death. I looked at her and said, “Is that even legal?” She was like, “Yeah, it is. I didn t know what to expect. I wasn t prepared that you just needed me to be there for whatever reason. I just went in and stood at the back of the room.” I remember her explaining her experience to me and she said that it was just this man and his wife. She said, “I just kept looking at his pajamas and thinking, ‘How do you just wake up in the morning, pick out these pajamas, drive yourself to the hospital, pass away, and these are the pajamas you want to wear.’ I don t know why that stuck out in her mind, and that really stuck with me about this man and the pajamas.” I said, “What was the wife doing?” She said, “They were obviously just saying ‘I love you’ and that sort of thing.” She sort of described the process vaguely. I said, “Were you upset?” She said, “I was bawling behind my mask, but I was trying to be professional. I had no idea what to expect. This was just thrown at me. I m trying not to cry, but it was a lot.” I thought, ‘Wow, yeah. That is a lot. No wonder you re stressed out about work.” I mean, my first response to her was, “Is that even legal?” So, that was sort of the first time I have ever heard of something like that. Scott What she was talking about is this program in Canada called it s abbreviated MAID Medically Assisted In Dying. So you ve never heard about that before? Courtney No, I guess not until she had, sort of, said so. I mean, I guess I maybe had some sort of idea that it was a thing, but I didn t think it was legal in Canada, and I certainly never heard of anyone else doing something like that. Scott When you were talking about this, did it immediately come to your mind that “This is what my mom should do”? Courtney No, God, not once. I was just listening to her story and thinking, like, “Wow, what a shitty day at work. That s heavy.” Not once did that cross my mind at all. That was all her experience. That s as far as it went in my brain sympathy for her and her having to be there. It was August 3 it was a Tuesday. My stepdad said, “I want to talk to you guys. I m going to FaceTime you at whatever time.” So, my stepdad FaceTimed me and both of my brothers. You can tell that my mom was not around. Because she, sort of, lost a bit of mobility and couldn t text and hold the phone, he would always text back for her or hold the phone while she talked to us sometimes. You could just you could tell she wasn t around and that he really had something to share with us. He said, “There are two things that I want to tell you. Your mom has decided that she wants to do a medically assisted death. Also, she would like for you guys to be there.” We were all just silent. I didn t say another word during that whole conversation. I have no idea what my brother said, honestly, but I do remember one of them saying, “Is that even legal?” Obviously, he said it was. One of us said, “What do you mean? When?” He said, “It could be as soon as a week from now. She has to be assessed. There has to be a COVID test. There has to be a place for her a spot for her at the hospital. So I don t really know. But this is the plan.” I have no idea what else was said, but I just hung up the phone. I ve never felt a feeling like that before. I was sobbing. It was like my body was in pain like my skin was irritating me, being on my body. It s the weirdest thing to explain, but you just wanted to, like, get your own skin off. It was hurting and there was nothing you could do. It was just horrible. I remember I gave it a little while and phoned her that night. I FaceTimed her and she was upset. I know that she was very comfortable with her decision but, I know, especially as a mom, how hard it would be to tell your kids that you got to leave them. I fully understand why she made that choice. I fully support her. I m even happy that she got to that she got to make that choice. My doctor said, “Cancer has controlled your mom s life for two years and she finally gets to be the one in control.” I felt happy for her that she didn t get to make that choice. The next day was Tuesday. The doctors had to come in this case, anyways to the house and do, sort of, a mental assessment. They want to make sure that you re of clear mind, you re making this decision on your own, no one s forcing you, and this is what you want. They tell you all the rules and what to expect. After you have all the information, you have to be the one to fully consent, so she did obviously. They gave her a COVID test because it s COVID. She had to be negative in order to go into the hospital which, I guess, doesn t make much sense. Anyways, she did the COVID test and she passed she was negative. So, the day after was Thursday, August 5. She was going to go to palliative care at the hospital closest to where we lived. She had to go by ambulance. She was having a lot of difficulties walking and getting in and out of the car, or up and down the stairs, and out of the house, so it was the smartest decision to have her go by ambulance it was the safest. My brother, being a pair of medic, called the coworkers who he really respected and told them the situation. I remember it was their day off and they still put on their uniform, got the ambulance, brought it to our house, picked up my mom, and to support my brother. I thought that was just so kind. Scott For sure. That s typical of the brotherhood of EMTs and paramedics. Courtney Right. I agree. It was really sweet. She was transported to the hospital. She had a palliative care room and it was a really nice room it was big, it was spacious. There s like a connecting room off of it with a TV and a pullout couch so that your family members can stay there with you. It s not just like a hospital bed and some creaky chair beside it. They really put a lot of thought into it. Between two rooms, there s a connecting kitchen, so you can make tea or meals or whatever it is that you need. They were really great. Scott It sounds more like a homey environment in a hospital room. Courtney For sure. The little connecting room had its own bathroom and a shower, so my dad could have a shower and his own place to sleep. Yeah, it was good. So, we showed up there on Thursday and we spent the whole day together. That morning, I remember not saying anything. My daughter was 4 at that time. I had to somehow explain this to her because I wanted to take her to the hospital the day before to see my mom and to see grandma. She was the only grandchild. She still is the only grandchild. So, she s just everything to her. I remember having to tell her. She was so mature and so sweet. She was so understanding. We sat outside and I said, “We re gonna go to the hospital and we re gonna go see grandma.” She said, “Okay.” I said, “I just need to tell you that this is going to be the last time that we re going to see grandma because she s very, very, very sick. She s gonna go to heaven.” and she just started crying. She cried and cried. We talked about it a little more, but I didn t know how to explain that further to her. So, we went and she came as well, along with my brothers and my stepdad. We had a visit. I didn t want her to stay the whole day but she had about an hour and she climbed up. I said, “Okay, give Grandma a hug.” She got up on her bed, hugged my mom and laid her head on her shoulder, and said, “I love you, grandma.” Then, she got down and I walked her out into the hallway someone was going to come to pick her up for me. We got halfway down the hallway when she stopped and said, “Can I go give Grandma one more hug?” I said, “Yeah, of course.” So, she ran back down the hallway, went through the doors, and said, “Grandma, I just want one more hug.” So she did and it was really sweet. After she left, we just spent time together. I mean, I ll say it was nice, but it was so much time apart. And we got to crawl in bed with her. My dad had bought her old cell phones it s a mom s cell phone so there are things on there from 40 years ago. Scott Moms don t delete pictures, right? Courtney No. She had all these things that we had lost because we probably had 100 new cell phones in the last three years, and she had, like, videos from when we were not when we were little because there wasn t cell phones. She had videos from years ago. She had the video of my daughter taking her first steps that I had lost long ago. She had all these funny pictures. We would just talk about so many of these things and laughed. We laughed so hard at all the things that we had, sort of, gone up to as a family and it was really nice. It was good. There was nothing else. It was just us. It was the 5 of us in that room and that was it. We had the whole day just to be together. Like I said, they were super accommodating. They said, “You can do whatever you want. We ll bring you the hospital dinner but do whatever you want.” As I said before, we re Canadian, so obviously we had to go get her poutine and a couple of pizzas. We sat around eating poutine and pizza, laughing and chatting. It was nice. I think I don t want to say it wasn t so heavy, but we had the next day. So, that day, we just really enjoyed it. Scott We re okay for today. Let s enjoy right now. Courtney For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Scott Probably a lot of old family stories came up… Courtney We all just, like, made fun of each other and talked about how she and my stepdad met, which is really amazing. My mom had a best friend who lived in town and the friend s dad had passed away, so her family was coming home for this funeral and one of the people was her brother. He was coming home to the small town that we live in for his dad s funeral and he said to her  sister, “Whoa, who s your friend?” It turns out that it was my mom. He was only here for a couple of days. He lived out west. I don t know what happened in 3 days, but here s my mom with 2 little kids. He basically said to her within a couple of days, like, “I m going to go home and pack all of my belongings, and I m going to move here. Do you want us to be together for the rest of our lives?” She said, “Yes.” They loved each other so much so much that you would think “That s crazy!” I think that s crazy. If I said that, I was going be, like, “Oh, this is what I m going to do” and move to another province and be with someone forever, it s like, “Okay…” Scott Yeah. Everybody would advise you that it s a really bad idea. Courtney I mean, they might have. But it has been almost 30 years since then, so joke s on them. She was the best mom. She made chocolate chip cookies. She made us spaghetti. She was always driving us to sports hockey, baseball, and soccer games. When we were little, when it was just me, my mom, and my brother, she would take us for real-life camping like, pitch a tent, all your meals are cooked on the fire that you ve assembled yourself, and you have to pack all the utensils and other things. She was great at it. She was it was a lot of fun. I have so many memories of going camping with her. One of my mom s hobbies was she collected dimes. She had this huge jar full of dimes. Anytime she got in my car, she d be like, “Oh my god, Courtney. Look at that!” I d be like, “It s 4 dimes. You re welcome to take your dimes.” Like, she would just go crazy. We bought her Christmas presents. As a joke, we wrapped, like, a roll of dimes from the bank, and she wouldn t give two shits about the present. She was like, “Oh, yes! Oh, yes!” Like, she was crazy about these dimes. It was so funny. My grandma would save her little plastic baggies of them and we d empty or change drawers and be like, “Okay, have at it.” She just was obsessed. It was so funny. I remember she rolled them up while she was home during COVID and she had almost $1,000 in dimes, so that s quite a lot. I remember saying, like, “Use it to go on a trip.” Then, she thought, “Maybe, I ll buy, like, a really good lazy boy or something.” I don t think she ever actually did anything with it, but it s funny how excited that would make her. The next day was Friday, August 6th. They had told us that this would take place at 1 o clock. It was the most bizarre thing. You can talk to people and say “Oh, my mom s really sick. She s not doing well.” but how do you call someone 4 days before and say my mom s gonna die on Friday at 1 o clock? It just didn t make sense. That morning, I remember that I set an alarm to get up, get ready to go and do this. I have trouble trying to explain it but I remember picking out an outfit and I want it to look nice. I don t know why this was on my mind, but I thought “I don t want to wear something that I love because I don t want this memory to be attached to it.”, so I picked something I d never worn before so that I could throw it away afterwards, which I did. So, I got ready. My brothers picked me up and we drove there together. We walked in and it wasn t, like, somber. It was just like I don t know. It s sort of hard to explain. My dad wasn t sitting around bawling. He was, like, happy for her because that s what she wanted and she was gonna get to do it her way. So, we all sat around. She had some breakfast. We shared more stories and laughed about things. When someone is sick like that, you don t say, “Well, if you die, then what should I do?” or “What do you want to pass along?” because you just always have this hope. But at that moment, you know that this is going to be it, so you re allowed to say these things that you wouldn t. I remember I said to her, “Whatever Christmas, we would make these bars. We made them all the time and we loved them. I was obsessed with them. Mom, where s the recipe for the bars that we make at Christmas?” She said, “Okay, go into the little kitchen.” We had a main kitchen and a side kitchen. She said, “Go into the little kitchen. It s in the cupboard on the right-hand side, and it s in a little blue recipe book that s where it is.” I said, “Okay, great. Perfect.” You can talk about these things, as I said. She wanted to be cremated and she was, sort of, indifferent as to what would happen after that. She thought that if her parents still had the farm, maybe she would like her ashes to be spread there and I could talk to her. I said, “Well, we don t own the farm anymore. So, I don t really like that idea.” It was just weird to have this conversation with her. I said, “Obviously, it s your choice, but I would really like for you to have, like, a stone in a spot where we can go and maybe feel that you re there. That s your spot.” She was like, “Okay, sure. That sounds good.” It was just so weird. Scott That’s just some bizarre conversations you never would imagine you would have with her. Courtney No, never. Like I said, they said it was going to be on Friday, at 1 o clock. So, we were there. The clocks are, like, those in an elementary school or something. They re great, big clocks with hands on them, and they re noisy. It was at the foot of her bed and it just kept in our moments of silence, if we just sat there and held her hand or whatever we were doing, you could just hear this clock and it was driving me nuts. It was so sad. It was giving us all, like, anxiety. She would look at it every now and then, and it was just heartbreaking. She was just watching the clock. Eventually, we took it off the wall and threw it in the hallway, so it wasn t there. Every so often, she would say, “What time is it?” We would say, “Well, it s 11.” She d say, “Okay.” Then, some more time would pass and she d say “What time is it?” We d say “It s 12.15.” We just loved her. I got in bed with her and held her hand. I remember my youngest brother sat at the foot of her bed and put lotion on her feet. My other brother was on the other side. You know that the time is coming and you know beforehand that the nurse had come in to put the IV in her hand so that it was prepped and ready. So, we were all trying to ignore what this nurse is doing. She couldn t get the bandage and she couldn t get it to work, so she had to get someone else to come. It was just like oh, for God’s sakes it was a lot. So, we were just laying with her and it was quiet. You knew that the time was coming and you hear a knock at the door. When we looked, it was the doctor he came in. It s fully her choice. He said, “How are you feeling?” She said, “Good.” He said, “Do you think you want some more time?” She just sort of looked at us like of course, she does, but the time had come, so she said to us, “Okay, come give me your hugs.” We all obviously had moments with her and hugged her. She said, “Be a good mom. I know you will be. You re such a good mom and I love you.” I remember just hugging her and saying, “I m so sorry, mom. I love you and I m gonna miss you so much.” My brothers and my dad had their time. I remember looking back at the nurse who was with him and I thought of my dear friend. I looked at that nurse and she was crying behind her mask. Her face was red, her eyes were red, and she was crying. The doctor went in, sat beside her, got her IV ready, and said, “Once I do this, it ll only be a couple of seconds, probably, and you ll just peacefully go to sleep.” We were at her side. I think I was kneeling on the floor and holding her hands. Her eyes were full of tears. She didn t want to leave us. I know she didn t want to leave us, but she didn t want us to watch her suffer, which would have likely been the outcome with everything going on. The doctor sat beside her and I was holding her hand. I remember staring at her and thinking, “Look at me. Just look at me…” She looked me in the eyes, and I just said, “I love you.” She said “I love you too.” The doctor looked at her and said, “It was my pleasure to have met you.” He did the injection and it was only a few seconds and her eyes just flooded. It really did look like she just peacefully fell asleep. We just continued to hold her hand. We just cried, cried and cried. Then, there comes the point, like, “What do you do now? You don t have to leave, but you don t want to stay looking… You don t understand looking at her this way. It was probably 20 or 30 minutes later when we decided that it was time for us to go, so we left. Scott Did you all go back to your parents place? It seems like that s a time when you would all want to be together… Courtney It does, but we didn t. We all wanted to be alone. My dad really wanted to be alone. He was gonna have to go back to the house. We all offered and wanted to, but he just really wanted to be by himself. The boys and I wanted to be by ourselves too. I drove back with my brother. I remember that I forgot my sweater and he said, “Do you want to go back?” I said, “No. Are you kidding? No. I ll leave it there.” It was a small town. One of the nurses in there, like, lived in our town and brought it to me or something I can t remember. I remember that he genuinely said, “Do you want to go back and get it?” Scott He wasn t even thinking when he asked that question probably. Courtney I don t know. We were all just, like, so Scott Well, it s not like something like you ve been through before. Courtney For sure. Scott How did you process it the next few days? I mean, you knew it was coming but you still had to be, in some way, kind of, unprepared for it. Courtney Definitely unprepared. It all happens so fast. It was like this blow of a conversation that I had no idea and, then, she was gone four days later. So I don t know if I did process it, to be honest. It all was really just a blur. It was weird, it was sad, it was quiet, and it was lonely. There s part of you that is, like, happy for her that she s not suffering. As I tell this, it sounds terrible, which definitely was for my family, but I definitely support people having this opportunity. I really do. So many people are suffering. Honestly, it could be worse. There are just so many more terrible outcomes, and this was really peaceful and there was no suffering. None. Scott And everyone had time to say everything they wanted to say. Courtney Yeah, absolutely. That was the nice part. Lots of people lose people tragically, and they don t have those moments. We had those moments. We got to say what we wanted to say. We got to ask the questions that we thought we would want the answers to, and we got to all be together and have spent time together. Scott You had mentioned that you joined a group like a 6-week program for people who have gone through this. Can you describe what that was? Courtney Soon after, I just felt so alone in that experience. I think I m not the first person to lose my mom and I m not the first person to lose someone to cancer. The way in which it happened is that I felt like no one understood. People would say, “Oh, I m so sorry.” and I would say thank you but, in my head, I would think that you have no idea. So, I wanted to connect with someone who understood. I had no idea where to start, but I found this group on Facebook I forget what it was called with people who supported that. It turns out that there were a lot of Americans. I felt like it was an inquiry and support page. Some people would say, “I live in Texas and I m considering this.” People would say, “Oh, is it legal in this state? Oh, it s not legal in my state.” There were just, sort of, people advocating and asking questions. I remember making a post in the group, which I don t think I ve done in my life. I don t know what I wanted the outcome to be, honestly. I just, sort of, said, “Here s what happened. It was very brief. While I support my mom s decision wholeheartedly, I m having a lot of trouble forgetting the events of that day.” All the comments were, sort of, people who said, “Well, when you re older, you ll understand why your mum made that choice. When you re older, you ll see that these weren t the golden years that your mom had planned for.” I was already numb and I was just defeated. I thought, like, “Again, you have no idea. I do support that. I do understand. I m grateful that she had the choice when a lot of people don t. That wasn t what I was reaching out for. I wanted someone who knew how I was feeling because it felt very lonely.” So, this woman reached out to me. She was from the States and she was a grief counselor. She had said that she had this idea to put together a 6-week grief group for people who had lost a loved one to MAID once it, sort of, became more known and talked about. She said, “I knew that this type of grief was going to be different and there needs to be a space for people.” and it was wonderful. It was so good. There were me and 3 sisters, kind of, from my area who had lost their mom, only a few weeks before I had. Then, there was another woman she was from LA. She lost her husband. We could all just be sad together, so it felt good. We just understood. There was no, like, “Oh, you don t get it.” They got it. They understood me. They were there too. They knew how I felt when I said whatever I said. I still keep in contact with them. I really value making connections with them in those days. It was really good. It was interesting too because the difference between the woman from LA her experience being in the US and our experience being Canadian were night and day. I mean, the same outcome but it s not covered financially. It s there. So, people have to figure out how to pay for it. Then, the surviving family members are left with the debt if there is some, I think. I mean, I m not really sure. I don t know how it works. I don t know if it s different in each state, but I know where she was. The person who was getting the assistance had to be the one to physically administer the dose to themselves, and theirs was by drink, which did not sound like a lovely experience, whatsoever. Our experience was, like, the injection. It took seconds, it was painless and quick. There s a mix, like a cocktail of sorts, that the person has to take themselves, which isn t very pleasant and it s not quick, either. Scott For someone who has been through this, you would recommend joining a group like that, I would assume? Courtney I would recommend joining a group or singular therapy or something. But yes. I mean, it s a really lonely thing. If you can find people who understand even just, like, a portion, I think it s really helpful, which is part of the reason why I wanted to speak to you because I tried really hard to find people to connect with and understood, but there was nothing. Anytime I Google “Counseling for medically assisted death”, a hundred things would pop out but it s about counseling the patient on how to prepare themselves, things to consider, and XYZ. There was nothing for the people who are there, who experience that loss, who are part of it but are still here. If one person hears this and thinks that girl understands how I m feeling or she s been there, too, then Scott Somebody might be helped by it, for sure, because, as you said, the resources for this are little to none. Courtney I feel that way. Scott As we recorded this, this happened about 10 months ago. If you could go back in time to 12 months ago, would you do anything differently? Courtney Yes. Scott What would you do? Courtney We stayed away. We didn t go home because of COVID and we wanted to keep her safe, and we lost those two years. I mean, I would have taken a rapid test and I would have moved in and been there every single day, but we stayed away to keep her safe. Scott Of course, you can only make decisions based on the information you have at the time, and you thought that was the best thing. Courtney We did, and she did too. She was very concerned about COVID and how that could affect her and her medication and stuff. So, it s not like she was begging us to be there. We probably would have, but she was very concerned, so we just respected how she felt. We would FaceTime, and we would visit in the backyard, or meet her at the park when she was feeling better before. We would do things like that. Scott How did you feel for the next few weeks or months? Were there any, like, family events when you got together but it just wasn t quite the same? Courtney We were planning her celebration of life for her birthday, which was in October. So, we had two months to grieve. I was in charge of all the photos, the boards, and going through all that sort of thing, so that was nice. It really was like an outlet. It felt good to go through all those pictures and relive those memories. I d send the boys something funny I found. I had my mom’s cell phones and it was funny because, growing up, my brother and I didn t like steak or pork chops or anything like that. As we grew older, we found out that we loved it. The reason was that my mom just cooked them so much, so they were always, like, well-done steaks. We’re like, “Oh my God. We actually love steak. What is this?” Going back to when she would take the pictures that were all blurry there were so many videos on there of just, like, the floor, her feet, or some little blurbs that she accidentally did. So, I played this one video that was taken years ago. We all just sound so happy and she just sounds like herself. She doesn t know that she s started recording this video. I heard her calling and yelling at my brother upstairs and he was like, “Yeah?” She went, “How do you want your steak done?” You can hear him go, “Rare.” She and my brother would never eat a rare steak like, absolutely not so, you would hear her go, “Uhhh. I like it a little bit more than that. Maybe, I ll do it just a little bit in between.” And he was like, “Yeah, sounds good.” I remember laughing so hard because it was just funny. They would be, like, “Yeah, just cook it rare” knowing that you would probably end up around, like, a medium or something. So that was good. I was happy to find that. The brother closest to my age was going to get married. He was set to get married in September. So, her goal was to make it to his wedding. Obviously, she didn t. So, his wedding was four weeks after she passed and it was sad. I really wanted them to have, like, a beautiful moment together without the focus being that our mom wasn t there. It wasn t this whole big huge thing there were just parents and siblings. Each had, like, a grandparent or something. Very, very small. Just us. Really pretty. So they got married here in Kingston down by the water. Two years prior, it was COVID, so there were no events or anything going on. So, it s this field down by the water where they got married, and it s beautiful. We were taking pictures. They were not just standing in one spot. Everyone s coming and going. They d go over to her grandma and take the pictures. We d move around. There were different sorts of scenery. She would take a picture with her brother and then her and her sister. Then, my brothers had a picture together. Then, he said, “Court, come get a picture with me” and I said “Okay.” So, I went over to where we were and I put my arm around him. I don t know what kind of human looks down at the ground when they re having their picture taken but, for whatever reason, I looked down and saw this shiny thing, and my heart fell. I thought, “There s no way” and I reached down. Out on the grass in the middle of this field, at the tip of my brother s wedding shoe was a dime. Unbelievable. I picked it up and I just held it in front of his face. We just stared at each other and my jaw just dropped. I couldn t say anything. I couldn t explain this. We all held it together really well, but I just lost it in that. There s nothing around I can explain this to you. It s an open field. It was crazy. I just started crying and I said to him, “I m just gonna take a minute. I m not going to do the photo right now. Give me a second.” I walked away and everyone was, sort of, looking like, “What the hell is her problem? All of a sudden, she was just crying and walking away when everything was fine.” My stepdad came over with a Kleenex and was like,” What s wrong?” I couldn t get it out. I was, like, choking on my words, so I calmed myself and said, Jake was standing on a dime. His foot was on a dime.” We all just cried and it was so it was amazing. There s no way to explain that. You can t even say that s a coincidence. It was just wonderful. Scott That is amazing. For anyone who is going or has gone through something like this, if they would like to contact you you ve given your permission we ll have your email address in the show notes so that they can contact you and ask questions or whatever. You re okay with that? Courtney Yeah, absolutely. Scott Courtney, your story and that episode– I mean, I ve done more than 250 of these now since I started, and it s still by far one of my favorite stories to listen to. You did such a great job in telling it and the reaction from listeners said the same thing. They loved it. How did you feel telling that story? Courtney Yeah, thank you. I felt really good. I felt so happy after it came out. I just felt so happy with the way that everything came across and the response from people was just so lovely. You just have such a wonderful community who just appreciates you and enjoys your work so much. And they were all so kind to me and sent the just the nicest messages and I m just very grateful. Scott You told me about an email that you got from an woman nearby. Can you talk about that? Courtney Yeah, I d received a couple of emails and there were comments on the Facebook post and a couple of direct messages and stuff. She had messaged me not for any reason she hadn t lost anyone. She had nothing to do with MAID. It was just purely because she lived in the next town over and we thought that was like a fun, interesting thing, like you being in Florida and here we are– and she was listening and she s like, “Oh my goodness. She s just like down the road.” So that was just the entirety of the message that she sent to me. We had a nice little chat and that was that. Then, two or three months later, she d messaged me again and I have it here I can read it to you. She messaged me and she said, “I just wanted to thank you again for your episode with Scott. Last Saturday, my nanny, like a second mother to us, passed away by MAID.” And I ll tell you, because of your story, I was so much more prepared for everything. So you did help someone with that journey. Scott That is amazing. Courtney It was. Oh my goodness. It was so beautiful and it was meaningful and special to me, and that s really all I wanted just the possibility to maybe help someone in some way. So that really touched me. It was really special to get that message. Scott I think your story does help people and will continue. As people discover the podcast for the first time, they go back and listen to the older episodes, so they re gonna hear it. And of course, today, it just went live again. It s been almost four years since that original episode went live. What s happened with you since then? Courtney Well, first of all, we sold our family home where I grew up since I was four or five maybe. So we did that and that s been a bit of a change, but really it s been for the best. The house was just too big for my dad to be at all by himself sort of thing, so that was a change, but it was great. It was good. He has moved with my youngest brother. They built him a place on his property, so it s been really nice for him. They have a really good community of friends and he just takes care of the chickens and they go ice fishing. My dad always had a motorcycle growing up. When he met my mom when I was very little, he came with this huge big bike but, because of kids and life, he put that passion on hold. So, about a year after, Mom passed. He was like, “I think I m gonna get a bike again.” I was like, “I think that you totally should.” So he s in his mid 70s and he s just ripping around on his motorcycle and he loves it. It brings him so much joy. It just makes me so happy for him. So they re doing, he s doing good. And my brothers, they re both great. They re really busy. They re very successful. They re happy. They re just really good people. So I m really proud of them. Scott I think you re all really good people. Courtney Oh, thank you. We try. Scott Yeah. And you? Courtney Yeah, me. So my partner and I, we ve been together for 12 years this summer. We built a house out in the country and that was all fun and exciting. We actually got married here at our property last fall. Scott That s awesome. Courtney Yeah, it was so much fun. It was just the best day. It was beautiful. Weather was perfect. It was great. Scott It sounds like life is good for you and your family. Courtney Yeah, life is good. Our daughter, who I spoke about last time, she s going to be 10 soon. She s funny, she s sassy, she is thoughtful, she s all the things. She s very artistic and she s in the choir she has been for years now. So overall, yes, we re all doing really well. The first year, if not two, for sure was very hard and sad and confusing. You learn to figure it out slowly and kind of try to create a new normal the best that you can. I won t say like time heals, but it definitely softens the pain after you ve lost someone that you love, but that doesn t mean that it s not still difficult at times, of course. I think of her constantly and we talk about her so much and there s been a lot of big happy moments, but they still have a bit of sadness attached to those. When I went wedding dress shopping, obviously, I very much wish that she could have been there. So that was tricky, but it was beautiful. I had a lot of other people there who care about me like my daughter and my mother-in-law and my mom s sisters both came with me at one point cousin best friend. So there s obviously those times and other big moments clearly like my wedding day and birthdays and Christmas and all those big kind of events. Scott Of course, yeah. And every time you find a dime, right? Courtney Yeah. Which still actually happens so often for all of us. Like, my brothers will just take a picture and send it to me. I find them quite a bit as well. Scott That s cool. Courtney Yeah. Scott All right, well I appreciate you coming on here and bringing us up to date and I wish you all the best for you and your family. Courtney Thank you. Thanks so much, Scott. It was so nice to talk to you. Scott As I told Courtney, this story is one of my favorites. I listened to it again recently because I knew it was coming up for a Flashback. It’s just so heartwarming and sad at the same time. And we have more pictures! You can see pictures of Courtney and her mom, her family, pictures on Courtney’s wedding day, you can even see her dad proudly showing off his new motorcycle. That’s all in the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/256. Here in the US, 13 states and Washington DC allow medical assistance in dying. Several more are considering legislation. Do you have an opinion about this? If so, we want to hear it. That’s the next Tuesday question in the Facebook group – it’s this coming Tuesday, May 26, 2026. I’m especially interested to hear if you were undecided or even against the idea, and perhaps Courtney’s story about her mom has caused you to re-think that. Join the discussion where we have a new thought-provoking question every single Tuesday – WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai. And remember, you can sign up to support the podcast by going to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS, or on an iPhone just click on Try Free – you’ll get every episode ad-free, plus there’s more than 50 bonus episodes that are exclusive to supporters. Are you ready for a Listener Story? I always love this segment at the end of each main episode. It’s just a listener telling a story of something interesting that happened to them. You can tell your story by recording it on your phone and emailing it to me at [email protected]. Try to keep it around 5-10 minutes. Or, you could do what this listener did, and call it in on the Podcast Voice Mail line – 727-386-9468. That line is never answered by a human, so you’ll always get voice mail, which has a 3-minute limit. This week’s story is about an important item getting lost. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener story) My story starts in the summer of 2025 when my friends and I decided to go on a 5-hours road trip to Duray, Colorado. We decided to embark on our journey. We started early in the day, and we stopped about halfway in a small town for lunch. We decided to eat lunch from the cooler we had packed for the entire week and then some, so we had to pull out all of the Jenga pieces that we had arranged. It was like a Tetris situation. So we pulled out the cooler, we ate our lunch, and did some thrifting, and we were on our way. Well, when we reached our destination, it started raining. We were going to set up camp, but it was pouring rain. So my friend, she went to grab her rain gear out of the car and we realized that I had left her backpack on the top of my car when we were rearranging, trying to pull out the cooler for lunch, so her backpack was long gone. It was on the side of the road somewhere. It was missing. Well, we got in the car and I told her, “Let s pull up at the nearest Walmart and I ll replace all your clothes. It was a real bummer way to start the trip. Anyway, we get in the car and she pulls up her text to find a Walmart, and she sees a message from a strange number, and it said, “Hey, we have your backpack. We re at Duray campgrounds,” which is our destination. “Hopefully you re still nearby.” Well, we were nearby, alright. We were just about 30 seconds down the road from him. Turned out her backpack had stayed on the roof of my car for an entire 2.5 hours, and it decided to fall off the second we turned into our destination. So, within 10 minutes of losing her bag, we got it back and we were onto a great start of the trip after that. So, all’s well that ends well.

One of the things that makes this life so interesting is that something can happen that’s life-changing, when you least expect it. I mean, you’re just going about your day – stopping at the grocery store, or putting gas in your car, just a routine day. Then something totally unexpected happens, right in front of you. I remember one time when I was just on my way to work in the morning. Just driving on this rural road in Maine, and there was a pickup truck in front of me. And there was a man riding in the back – in the open bed of the truck. He was standing, facing forward, just hanging out. All of a sudden that truck went to the right, off the road, right into a power pole. I don’t know what caused the driver to lose control, but fortunately there were no serious injuries. Even the guy in the truck bed was mostly okay. But it just happened so fast. My guest today is Jayson. He was having a pretty normal day, just running some errands. Then he found himself unexpectedly witnessing an attempted murder. Jayson doing his stand-up comedy Jayson If you’d like to contact Jayson, you can do that through his website: http://www.jaysoncross.com/ You can also find him on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and TikTok: @jaysoncrosscomedy On X (Twitter): @jcrosscomedy Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/255 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): One of the things that makes this life so interesting is that something can happen that’s life-changing, when you least expect it. I mean, you’re just going about your day – stopping at the grocery store, or putting gas in your car, just a routine day. Then something totally unexpected happens, right in front of you. I remember one time when I was just on my way to work in the morning. Just driving on this rural road in Maine, and there was a pickup truck in front of me. And there was a man riding in the back – in the open bed of the truck. He was standing, facing forward, just hanging out. All of a sudden that truck went to the right, off the road, right into a power pole. I don’t know what caused the driver to lose control, but fortunately there were no serious injuries. Even the guy in the truck bed was mostly okay. But it just happened so fast. My guest today is Jayson. He was having a pretty normal day, just running some errands.  Then he found himself unexpectedly witnessing an attempted murder. Scott How old were you when this happened?  Jayson This was 2018. At that time I was 40. No, it was right before my 40th birthday, actually. I was 39, so I was still young. I was on the cusp of being young and middle aged.  Scott Okay.  Jayson I was a week away from being middle aged.  Scott When you sent this to me, you said you were heavily involved in boxing at the time. Did you box every day?  Jayson I won t say every day, but I got into the boxing gym 3-4 days a week. No, maybe 4 or 5 days a week at that time. And I was doing a lot of road work. Road work is when you run around, you run 2-3 miles a day, so you don t get tired when you re in a boxing ring. So I was fairly fit at the time.  Scott And you also said you did something called boxing interviews. What is that?  Jayson Boxing interviews– so I would go to boxing press conferences and interview the boxers before the fight and after the fight. Sometimes, I would go to the gym and interview other boxers on what they thought about upcoming fights. I would interview certain boxers about boxing techniques.  Scott And was this for a local TV station or just for your own benefit? What was the purpose?  Jayson For two places– I had a YouTube channel called Laugh At First Site. I know it s offbrand Laugh at First Site but I called that segment punchlines to tie it in with the comedy I was doing at the time. And I worked for EsNews, Elie Seckbach News. He has a YouTube tube channel as well, and he s heavily involved in boxing.  Scott So were you boxing just pretty much to stay in shape or were you thinking like self-defense situations?  Jayson Both actually. I mean, you never know what can happen out here in this crazy world we live in. Mind you, this was pre COVID, so it wasn t as crazy and this was pre all the brick attack madness, so it wasn t as crazy. But to stay in shape I m a vain person, not going to lie and self-defense for sure.  Scott I know you are in Chicago now, but this happened in New York City.  Jayson Happened in New York City at the time. I lived in New York for approximately 20 years after college.  Scott Okay, so let s just talk about that day. You met a friend in Bryant Park and you were walking towards Hell s Kitchen– just kind of set this up for us.  Jayson My friend and I had a plan. We were going to go to the boxing gym, but first we made our way over to the dry cleaner. The dry cleaner was on 38th Street between 8th and 9th, between Hell s Kitchen and Times Square. Had dry cleaning there and had to go pick it up. I even remember the dry cleaner– it was my yellow shirt. I had this yellow shirt I used to love. Don t know what happened to it. Maybe I outgrew it, who knows. But I was going to pick up my dry cleaning. We walked up the street. The first thing I noticed distinctly walking up the street, there was a mounted cop and there were people playing with the horse, like trying to hand food in the horse s mouth. I thought these people were crazy because I said, “What if the horse just bites them?” And who knows?  Go in, get the dry cleaning, no problem whatsoever. Come out with the dry cleaning. I did the old 70s thing where you hang it on your two fingers like this and drape it over your shoulder. As I was coming out the door, I always looked both ways, almost like crossing the street to make sure there s no trouble. I guess this is one of the things or one of the habits you keep when you grow up on the south side of Chicago. You become very defensive and very aware of your surroundings. So I look left and right. When I look left, I see a guy walking towards me with a brick in his hand. A huge brick.  Scott The kind of brick that would fit in your hand not a cement block? Jayson No, not a cement block. You would have to have really big mitts to hold this brick. He was holding it with two hands. So, I would say it’s maybe 7 inches long, 4-5 inches wide, and maybe 3 inches thick. Pretty big brick. I instinctively get defensive. I handed my dry cleaning to my friend, moved him out of the way he’s a smaller gentleman and I was ready to box at the time, ready to use the skills even though I think it would ve been impossible to fight a brick.  Scott I m curious about this. You must have sensed something about this guy because somebody could be carrying a brick and maybe they work in construction or something, so they re just carrying a brick. But something you saw indicated that there was something malicious happening.  Jayson Well, I ve seen people get hit with bricks in fights in Chicago, for sure, as a kid. The fact that he had a brick put me on guard, on edge, for sure. He looked like a guy that was either on the streets from the streets. I profiled him and I wasn t going to trust him getting too close to me with the brick. He definitely didn t look like a stone mason.  Scott He wasn t wearing a construction hat and a reflective vest or something, right?  Jayson No, he wasn t there to build. He was there to destroy.  Scott And is this a, white guy or black guy? Jayson Black guy. People are going to put so many comments on this. I totally profiled the guy, not going to lie, well, because growing up in Chicago, I ve seen people that look like him hit people with bricks. I ve seen it happen. I mean, it was a mutual combat situation where they were fighting but, nevertheless, I wasn t going to take that chance. Scott And we should say– I mean, this is an audio only podcast, so people can t see you as we re listening to this, but you re black as well?  Jayson Yes, I m Black. Ligety Bigly Black.  Scott Okay. So you saw this guy and felt that there was some kind of a threat coming from him.  Jayson It could have been a threat. That was the thing. I didn t think it was a potential threat. Anytime someone has a brick and they re within striking distance, or if they have a knife or they re in striking distance, I m going to be on guard. Any kind of weapon that can cause severe bodily harm, yeah. I was on guard  Scott And he was walking toward you from your left, is that right? Jayson Yes. He was walking towards me from the left. From my left would ve been 9th Avenue. So he was coming from 9th Avenue walking towards 8th Avenue, for any of those who understand and know the street grid in New York. Scott When you say you got ready, do you have a fighting stance or something that would indicate to him, “Hey, don t bother me.” Something like that? Jayson Absolutely. A fighting stance is a bladed stance where if you re righty or right-handed, you ship your right hand to the back and your left hand to the front. It s called a bladed stance. So instead of standing square where he could see both shoulders, you turn to the side, so he can only see one. So there s less of a surface area to hit, and it s easier to move that way and be more elusive. He picked it up instantly because– I mean, I m sure the look on my face when I tucked my chin– I was in total fight stance, the chin tuck. I even put my hands up. Now that I remember, I even put my hands up and he instantly picked that up and he looked at me and said, “Nah, I m going to hit a white motherfucker with this brick.”  Scott Did you feel confident that you could take him even though he had a brick and you were unarmed at that time? Jayson It would all depend if he was able to strike me with the brick and where he would ve struck me with the brick because, if he would ve made a move, I would ve definitely got two punches off. But if the brick cracked me in the face, I mean, I m going out. Well, I don t know because I had another incident where I m shocked I survived it. That s for the next interview. That way, you ll have me back. But depending on where he would ve struck me with the brick – I definitely could have got to him – and depending on his punch tolerance.  Scott So he said he was looking to hit someone white. Jayson Not just someone. He said a white motherfucker with a brick. It was very racially charged. I don t want to downplay that and say, “Oh, hit a white person.” He said, “A white motherfucker.” He said it in such a way it s racist, hateful, prejudice, bigoted. At first, I initially thought he was just a crazy guy rambling with a brick. I didn t think he would actually do it. I didn t think he would actually do it. He said, “Nah, hit a white motherfucker with a brick.” I m like, okay. He saw that I got in a boxing stance. I ve noticed with some aggressive crazy people that they re only as crazy as the threat they have to go against. So if it s a little old lady, they re crazy. If it s a guy or a man they think may hurt them, they re not as crazy. So I figured he was just talking and he wasn t going to do anything.  Scott And he s still walking toward you?  Jayson Yeah. He kept his distance. He kept a good 6 feet away and he continued walking east down 43rd street. And as he was walking, I saw a guy with a red hoodie on his hands in his pocket and his head down.  Scott Where was this guy?  Jayson This guy was walking towards 9th Avenue. They were walking towards each other. Guy with the hood on who later became the victim, he was walking on the outside closer to the street, and the guy with the brick was walking on the inside closer to the buildings. Scott The guy with the brick had already walked past you. So they are both to your right.  Jayson Yeah. He walked past me but, like I said, I didn t really trust him afterwards because I didn t want to turn my back and he comes crack me from behind and I didn t see it, so I followed him, kept the stance all the way until he was maybe 10 feet out of range and about 15 feet. That s where they crossed paths.  Scott And the guy in the hoodie, could you see his face at all?  Jayson Couldn t really see his face. I initially thought it was orange but, in court, I found out it was red. No, I initially thought it was red. In court, I found out it was orange. I noticed he had glasses on and I noticed that he was of the Caucasian persuasion. Scott So did it trigger then that this guy might be in trouble?  Jayson Not then, even, because I just thought the guy was a crazy coward just walking with a brick. Not then. The perp with the brick– he picked the brick up over his head the same way you would try to strike a nail with a hammer if you wanted to hit it with intense force. So he picked it up over his right shoulder, over his head and he struck the gentleman in the red burnt orange hood on the left side of his chin, and he went down like a ton of bricks. When he struck him with the brick, he let it go. It was almost like a downward row slash strike, if that makes sense. It hit him in the face. He fell on garbage bags because, in New York, all the trash is thrown out in the front. They don t have alleys in New York City. At that time, I remember screaming, what the fuck are you doing? And that s when it struck me, “Oh, this guy s no joke.” I started towards him, but he picked the brick up again and he struck the guy again. Then, I started towards him again. Then, he got to the brick again and struck him again. At this time, I see blood just gushing and – I remember clear as day – I thought distinctly to myself, if someone (i.e. me) doesn t stop this, this guy is going to die right in front of my eyes. Mind you, after the first strike, there were people behind the guy with the brick on the side, closer, in a better situation to stop him in some way, shape or form, but all they screamed was, “Somebody stop or make him stop!”  The last strike– he hit him with the brick, he threw it down on him and the brick cracked in half and that s when I jetted and ran towards him at top speed. He was going down to get the brick, and I guess he heard footsteps coming his way or he saw me out as peripheral, but he looked up at me, made eye contact, and he jetted towards 8th Avenue. So if I was turned to my left and then turned around to the right, he went further to the right. Scott He wanted to just get out of there.  Jayson Oh, he started running, I remember. He had a sheet or a towel on and he threw it up in the air when he ran. The way the towel/sheet was floating in the air really stuck in my mind because it just slowed down. He took off. He was very bow-legged, running low, so he appeared shorter than I thought he was. I actually ran. The brick’s broken too – it was like 80% of the brick and then 20% of the brick. I scooped up to 20% of the brick, like a shortstop used to play little league baseball. I guess those skills came in handy because my initial thought was to throw it. Hopefully, it cracks him and he falls down and then we wait till the police get there. But then I thought while I was running, “Okay, what if I throw it, hit a car, break a window, hit someone else?” So I let that thought go and just kept a brick in my han, chased him, tried not to get too close to him because I thought he would stop, turn around and kick, and probably knock my win into the middle of next week. So we were chasing. I have to admit, I was in great shape, probably the best shape I ve been in my life at the time, but that guy was fast. I mean fast, fast. I chased him for maybe half a block and then we passed the mounted cop that I told you about. Scott Oh, the same one? Jayson The same mounted cop. He was there and people were still feeding the horse nuts or whatever. I said, “We got to get that guy.” I m out of breath because I m going hard. Like, he s only maybe 15 feet in front of me. I kept a visual contact, kept him in my eye line. “Get him, he hit somebody with a brick. We have to get him.” I m chasing the guy running and the guy cuts through traffic this way and the mounted cop is just on a horse, did not get off the horse, and I m thinking, why is this guy not getting off the horse so we could get this guy? So the guy runs through traffic, he goes to the other side of the street through traffic, and I run like on the same side of the street, but in traffic, if that makes sense, the same side he crossed from and kept a visual.  Through this time, the weird thing is – I don t know, maybe I m a natural born comic – I heard blaxploitation music in my head while I was running, the guitar, that music started playing in my head. I started hearing this music and then, all of a sudden, the guy just lays down – the guy who hit the gentleman with the brick. He lays down and spreads eagle on the ground. Full eagle – looks like a starfish. He spreads eagle.  I go in front of him, and then the cop comes from behind him, and I said, “All right, officer, that s him. He hit the guy with the brick in the head. He almost killed that man down there.” And the officer gets off and the guy tries to sit up and he says, “Get back down, get down.” And the guy just sits there and puts his hands up and I said, “That s him. He hit the guy with the brick.”  He looked me in the eye. I ll never forget this moment. It was the most compelling moment from the situation. He looked me in the eye and said, “You witnessing, bro?” The brick guy looked me in the eye and said, “You witnessing, bro?” For people, let me translate because I don t speak broken English. He meant to say, “Are you witnessing, bro?” or “Or you are witnessing, bro?” But he said, “You witnessing, bro?” Scott What did that mean?  Jayson Well, you tend to think about these things because in our initial interaction, he said, “I m going to hit a white motherfucker with a brick.” He thought I had the same racial animosity and hate that he had and that he was justified in his actions and that snitches get stitches. You know the worst thing in the world is you tell the police, you testify. I think they call it being a rat. Interesting portion of it all – about the rat and the testifying – I spoke to some gentlemen I knew, other African American guys, one was a stockbroker, one may have sold insurance, “Oh, Jayson, you can t testify. This is going to come back. People are going to say you re a rat, you re a snitch.”  Then I spoke to a gentleman I knew who was– let s say he ran the Harlem Underground Economy in the 70s and early 80s. He was on the other side of the law. And I said, “Oh man, I didn t know.” He looked and he said, “Jayson, what the fuck are you talking about? You re not a street guy. You went to college. You want to be a part of this society. It is your duty to tell. It is your civil duty to not tell, but to testify, to tell on this guy. Do you want to live in a society where crazy people are going around hitting 60-year-old men in the face with bricks? Is that where you really want to live, Jayson?” Mind you, this is a guy who did 15 years behind bars, came out for six months, went back for another 15 years. It really impresses something upon me, the dichotomy of people who are really into ‘street life’ versus people who are civilians and the perception of things. Yeah. But he definitely encouraged me. He said, “Are you crazy? What fools told you about this rad stuff? You guys didn t have an agreement. You don t know this guy.”  But the attacker was surprised. Oh, he was very surprised. He was shocked. He was appalled. I can t speak to his state of mind, but we re not in court, so that s not important. But yeah, I could tell he was shocked and appalled and somewhat hurt. Like, how could another black man tell on me for hitting and– excuse my language, I don t use this. How could another black man tell on me for hitting a cracker in the face with a brick? That s what I kind of saw going through his head.  Scott He felt kind of betrayed. Jayson He felt not kind of betrayed, but totally betrayed. I don t think he thought in a hundred years that I would ve testified. Even when I went to court to testify, he still felt betrayed at that time.  Scott But you were chasing him. I mean, it s not like you were going to say, okay–  Jayson Not like I m going to take a selfie for my Instagram story. Scott Right. Nice hit. Go on. Jayson Yeah, exactly. Yeah, bro, you did it. One down. It wasn t like I was going to do that. No.  Scott It was interesting that there were other people there, they saw it happen and they didn t– I know there s a thing called the bystander effect where an individual is less likely to step in and offer help to a victim when there s a group of people because nobody wants to stand out.  Jayson Well, they feel that someone else would do it, one. Two, they feel like if someone else isn t doing it, it s not a big problem. But most people don t want to get involved because there is a truckload of bad things, not bad things, but issues that come along with getting involved. You have to testify, you have to go through the anxiety of this. You have to worry about retribution, you have to worry about the label. I told you about snitch rat, whatever, even though no one s ever said that. And you might get hit with a brick because you re jumping in to prevent it from happening. You might get hit. So there s a plethora of issues that come along, so it s challenging, but seeing someone potentially about to get murdered made something in me click.  So the attacker gave up. He gave up, he s down, he’s looking at me and “You witnessing, bro?” I paused for a second and said, “Fuck yeah, you almost kill that guy for none.” And then he said, “Well, I can t breathe. I can t breathe. I didn t have my medicine today. I can t breathe.” Mind you, this is maybe several months, maybe a couple years removed from the Eric Garner case, New York City. I don t know if your listeners are familiar with that, but it was a black gentleman who was selling Loosie cigarettes in Staten Island, New York, I believe. He got choked out by the cops and he kept saying he can t breathe, and he ended up dying as a result of that altercation.  Scott So this guy was trying to play that same card. Jayson I think he was making a mockery of it. I think he was making a mockery of it. Yes.  Scott The policeman actually did eventually get off the horse and arrest this guy. Jayson He got off the horse but he held it. So I spoke to him. I saw him when we were at the grand jury first person I approached. I go up and say, “Man, why didn’t you get off the horse?” He said, “Well, think of it this way, Jayson. He gets away. You saw him. We have video. We could get him another day. If I let this horse go and it runs in the middle of Times Square and begins to trample people, we have a much bigger issue because he said he called for backup and other people are coming.” So he said it s a much bigger issue. I understood it when he put it in that perspective. But prior to that, because I was out of breath man, I was going hard. I m like, “We can t let this guy get away because I started picturing, “What if this was a little kid? What if it s a little white kid walking home from school, latchkey kid, no different than I was growing up. 10, 12-year-old latchkey kid walking home, and he gets hit in the face with a brick? He s going to expire. His brain s going to rattle around. Well, what if it was a grandmother or a little babushka walking into her rent control apartment she had in Hell s Kitchen since the seventies, or nonna walking in a rent control apartment and this guy just hit her with a brick for nothing?” The hatred he has in his heart, that s nonsensical. Couldn t let that go.  So after he said he couldn t get his medicine, they handcuffed him, they hooked him and they put him on one of those rolling chairs and they took him off to Bellevue. That s the psych ward is that politically correct? I don t know. Scott I don t know.  Jayson I ll say it. They took him off to the psychiatric hospital, which is Bellevue in New York.  Scott He needed some mental evaluation following his arrest. How about that?  Jayson Yes. Then I ran back. The victim is sitting on the back of the ambulance because I actually guided the ambulance to where he was, because I thought he was in worse shape. I mean, he got struck with a brick, 3 or 4 , maybe even 5 times. He was leaking pretty bad. He was in the ambulance and he was holding something against his face to stop the bleeding. I was almost cheerful at the time and I said, “I m sorry.” He looked at me. He had no idea what I was talking about, and he said, “For what?” I said, “That I couldn t get there sooner.” Yeah. I was tearful because, gosh, just to see him in that kind of pain and hurt and shock.  Scott Yeah. He never saw it coming.  Jayson Never saw it come and never know what hit him. He tried to get up one time but he slipped on the garbage bags.  Scott What do you do after that? You got to have a lot of adrenaline going on. Jayson Adrenaline was pumping. They take him off. I give a statement to the policeman, to the officer at the time, name, address, what do you see, what you didn t see. My friend and I, we get the dry cleaning and we walk to my place. We talked about the incident the whole walk there and how crazy it was. Then, I take the dry cleaning in and I go get the boxing gloves and it s off to the boxing gym and I don t think I ve ever trained that hard in my life because of my adrenaline. I don t even think it dissipated after I trained. I ran on the treadmill probably two miles at a six minute mile which is something I ve never been able to replicate again, unfortunately. I was Kenyan for a day. Hit that happy bag, hard hit pads with one of the trainers. Probably did 500 situps. It was an intense training.  Afterwards, you start processing everything. Who is this guy? Is he connected to some sort of street gang or street crew? And where is this going to leave me? And what kind of retribution is going on or what kind of retribution could happen? Scott:  You had mentioned that you also felt sadness. How did this affect you mentally?  Jayson Initially, it was shocking. Went to the gym, had a lot of anxiety. Then, a sense of pride came over a little bit like, yeah, I saved this guy, because things like this, you can say you have all the principles in the world, you can say what you ll do in a situation, but you never know until you re faced with that situation. I heard people say, “I wouldn t do this, and if this happens, I would do–” That s not true. It s not true. It s really not because I m pretty sure everyone who was standing around said, “I ll never let this take place.” But they stood frozen like they stared at Medusa. They didn t move. So I had a sense of pride about that, but I really was upset and sad that this is what our society was degenerating to because there was an incident that happened maybe two or three weeks later. A friend of mine who was an ex pro fighter who s been in the ring with some real animals. I mean, anyone who s a boxing fan would definitely know him from some of his fights. He s walking to the gym one day, 6 in the morning, a homeless guy comes from behind. Well, we don t even know. I can t even say homeless guy. Someone comes from behind could have been a woman punches him in the jaw, breaks it in three places.  Then, maybe a week after that, I heard an incident of men beating up women, beating up some women near Grand Central Station. So the violence started running rampant. Growing up in Chicago, there was always some sort of violence. Oh, he s in this gang, he s in this gang. Bang, bang, bang, bang and, sad to say, I kind of understood it, don t agree with it, but I kind of understood it. There was a reason. But the senseless violence– he just hit this guy for no reason because he was white. No rhyme, no reason, no past history in my eyes. It was for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Something like that really made me nervous. It made me super paranoid and sad and depressed for a little bit because you can t defend against it. It could happen to anyone anytime for no reason whatsoever. How are you going to put your head on a swivel for 24 hours a day? How are you going to play in the park with your children? How are you going to walk through Central Park? It s saddening that this is what our society s coming to.  Scott And I ve been to New York City multiple times and I walk around not really even thinking that violence could happen at any time because, for the most part, you re safe. These are the exceptions – these situations – but you re right, you never know. What was the outcome of this case? Jayson Roughly, let s say 6-8 months later, I get a call from the district attorney from Special Victims Unit, which was crazy to me because I watch a lot of Law and Order: SVU, so I m like, “This is a big DA from Special Victims Unit.”  “Hi, Mr. Cross. How are you? Remember the brick attack?”  “How could I forget it?”  He said, “Okay, well we re going to charge the guy and we re going to charge him with assault. We want to ask you some questions about your testimony.”  And I said, “Assault? He said he s going to hit a white motherfucker with a brick.” She s like, “He said that to you?”  I m like, “Yeah. It’s in the police notes.”  She s like, “All right, let me call you back.” So they decided to take it to a grand jury. I testified at the grand jury. That s where I saw the cop and was like, “Why didn t you get off the damn horse?” I actually saw the victim again for the second time, didn t speak, just saw him. I went into the grand jury and testified, and they upped it to a hate crime with attempted murder. Initially, assault is just five years. They upped it to a hate crime with attempted murder because this guy wanted to go to trial for just assault because it s five years. They upped it to a hate crime with attempted murder, and that s punishable in New York state, 25 years to life. So he took the deal, they offered him 14– no, they offered him 12 and the judge dropped it down to 10. So he had a deal for 10 years. He got a deal for 10 years and I think that s the end of it. I think that s the end of it. Towards the end of 2019, I think that s the end of it.  2020, COVID hits. I start thinking about the case. I get off social media. I kind of hide my internet profile more because now I m really into my paranoid mind like, “Oh gosh, this guy s going to join this and this is going to happen. And oh gosh, my paranoia.” So I deleted my internet profile. I don t know if people are watching it or not, but strangely enough he wants to appeal the case.  Scott Wait a minute, he took a plea deal.  Jayson Took a plea deal, got 10 years.  Scott I didn t even realize you could appeal something like that because he agreed to it.  Jayson Yeah, he agreed to it, but he chose to appeal the case. He had some special interest group that was going to help him. I m not a legal eagle, so I can t speak to what it was. Scott Right. But the interesting thing too, though, is he acted as his own lawyer.  Jayson He acted as his own lawyer, yes. So he was a lawyer. They gave him a public defender as his assistant counsel. Scott Okay.  Jayson Yeah. As his assistant counsel. He was his own lawyer, took the 10 year plea deal. This guy– I don t think he s a dummy. I think he has somewhat of a pretty decent aptitude, and I think he did that purposely so he could appeal. “Well, I didn t know what I was doing. I need to appeal this case because maybe someone caught COVID and they re not here anymore.” Scott True. Right. Jayson Maybe that vain black guy that chased me up the street, maybe he changed his mind. Scott Well, the old saying, anyone who acts as his own attorney has a fool for a client.  Jayson Absolutely.  Scott I mean, I ve heard public defenders aren t always really at the top of their game.  Jayson Yeah. Well, the one he did was actually a pretty good lawyer, I must say. He appeals this case, so I have to go back to New York to testify. Scott Oh, so you didn t live in New York at that point?  Jayson No, absolutely not. I said, man, people getting hit with bricks, punched in the jaw, thrown on subway tracks, let’s say you’re scared as hell when you move to Chicago to be safe. So he appealed it. I had to go back to testify and that was my first time in New York since I left. It was very interesting and I testified and pretty much told the same story I m telling you. And when it came his time to cross examine me, he said, no questions. And then he and his lawyer had a sidebar. He s like, “Well, you got to–” and I kind of hear him. They were supposed to be speaking, but they like, “You got to testify, you got to ask him something.” Then, his lawyer came up just firing off questions really fast, trying to trip me up. “So, Mr. Cross, tell me this. You ve been boxing for 10 years. How come you didn t run up faster?”  Scott Were they trying to discredit you as a witness?  Jayson Well, just certain things. He said, “Mr. Cross, you ve been boxing for 10 years. How come you didn t move up faster?” And I m like, “Bro, I m trying to fight people with gloves, not with bricks.” So he just asked certain questions, “(Unintelligible) Did you do this?” And then they said, that s it. I got off the stand and that took a weight off my shoulders. And then I saw the victim afterwards and we had a nice talk.  Scott Is that the first time you d actually chatted with the victim other than in the ambulance? Jayson Yeah. Besides saying “Sorry I didn t get there quicker”, I said, “Hi, I m Jayson” and apologized again. When I saw him, I said, “Hey, I m sorry. Couldn t get there quicker.” After I testified, then we got to talk, actually. Scott You got to know him fairly well.  Jayson Fairly well, yes. We became friends, I would say, afterwards.  Scott How did that happen?  Jayson I went to a language academy in Chicago for elementary school, so Sprechen Sie Deutsch?  Scott I don t, no. Jayson I love German. I say it s my second language. When I first spoke to him, he said “(German)” and I heard the German accent. So when I got to speak to him afterwards, I spoke a little German with him. I m somewhat of a Germanophile, so we speak about German history and Charlemagne and things like this and the Prussian Empire and the Holy Roman Empire and we became friends from there. Every time on the anniversary of this incident, we always say, “Hey, glad to have met you” and send each other messages.  Scott So he s still in New York?  Jayson Yes, for now. I can t say much on his behalf but, for now, yeah. Oh, I forgot to mention that the guy ended up– he had a 10 year deal, and when he went to appeal the case, he got 14 years. So he actually ended up getting more time. Scott I m just confused about that. I mean, it s a good thing, right? He got more time.  Jayson More time. Mm-hmm.  Scott And is he still incarcerated now or when does he come up for release?  Jayson So he s due to be released in March of 2030 but, when you get arrested, they take your DNA and they run it through CODIS. I have friends in law enforcement and they told me to run it through CODIS. So they run his DNA through CODIS and he s a suspect in a murder in Minnesota. A white lady was stabbed to death in the 2010s I mean 2013, 2014, something around there and I m guessing his DNA popped and he s wanted for that murder. So he may go straight from New York jail to Minnesota. Scott So they re not going to try him for that until he gets released? Jayson That, I don t know. I don t have too many details about it. I just read the news article, but I checked the law on that. That s punishable by 25 to life. I wonder, since she was Caucasian, well, they can t prove mens rea, so they can t say it’s a hate crime, so he probably won t get a hate crime enhancement, but it s kind of odd that you’re wanted for a murder of a white lady in Minnesota and then try to kill a white man in New York City. Scott You didn t even realize he was probably or possibly a murderer already walking toward you with that brick.  Jayson I didn t know already, but when he hit the guy with the brick, I saw in his eyes, I could see he had blood lust. I ve seen that look before, let s say. I could tell he definitely has killed people before, for sure. There s a certain blood lust you could see in a person s eyes if you know what you re looking for.  Scott Yeah. You don t want to see that when you re in the ring with somebody, right?  Jayson Well, it s a different kind of blood lust. That s just like aggression and anger or whatever. You would have to have been around certain situations or grew up in a certain part to really see these people or this person likes to kill for sport. Scott If you could do this all over again, would you do anything differently?  Jayson I would ve become a 2A advocate a lot earlier. That way, I wouldn t have to run as fast.  Scott But that s difficult in New York, right? You can t just get a concealed weapons permit.  Jayson Well, it s impossible. In New York, the issue or issue– I forget the exact law, but you can get it, but you can carry it in Manhattan County, I believe, which is hard. I mean, you can get a firearm, but it s very difficult.  Scott Really, what you did that day, you would ve gotten there sooner if you could, but that s about it.  Jayson Absolutely. Well, with the 2A thing, I do believe that as well, but that was more for comedic effect, of course, being my profession. But if I could do it all over again, when he said he is going to hit a white motherfucker with a brick, I would ve knocked the brick out his hand. But then, I’d think about that too or something, right? So what? Knock the brick out of his hand and he runs away? I m not going to chase him because he didn t hurt anyone at the time. He just said something at the time that s stupid. So, okay, this guy doesn t get hit, but maybe he goes around the corner and he gets that kid or grandmother that I spoke about earlier. I mean, I hate that the victim had to go through that, but I think it played out the best way it could have played out.  Scott Could have been worse for everybody.  Jayson Yes. Well, it could have been someone dead. I remember, before that, it was a reverse issue. It was a white guy that came down from Maryland. He was looking for a black person to kill and he stabbed some guy in the chest on 38th and 10th, which is where I go grocery shopping. So mind you, I hear this story on the news. This was a few months around there, and he said, “Yeah, I saw this one guy, but he looked too nervous. He was always looking around. So I decided to leave him alone.” I say I walk down that street every day, not every day, but a lot to go to the grocery store, so maybe 2-3 times a week and I wonder if that was the guy, because I m always looking over my shoulder, looking for this, looking for that. I have the in-square rule. So when you re walking on the sidewalk– you know how the sidewalk is divided into squares? I very rarely let someone get within square distance of me, not that I don t let him get within that distance, but without being defensive minded.  Scott Right. You re at least aware somebody s there. Jayson Aware and ready to strike if they strike, definitely. But yeah, he stabbed him on the corner I passed a hundred times yearly and I just really wonder what was going on, and that was racially motivated as well. That actually led to my heartbreak and depression too as well – all these racially motivated things happening and a place that s supposed to be the most liberal place in the union, New York City, and you have hate crimes everywhere you go. I would think we ll be more civil by now. In our evolution by now, we would be a little more civil than to judge people on such superficial things, or not even judge but to kill people based on such superficial things.  Scott How did this experience change how you look at life, if it did? Jayson It changed a lot. One, you have to realize things do happen and they can happen. I was not a 2A guy at that time. Then, the toilet paper debacle that added fuel to the fire. I said, people are acting crazy over toilet paper. We re losing our minds. Became a 2A advocate because I realized there may be a time where you have to defend yourself and there s no one to call. So you have to be prepared. I stay prepared, still paranoid, still looking. I say I probably profile certain people, I won t say certain people, but people in general more than I normally did when or normally would. It made me kinder in a way because you never know when things like that could happen, a little more kinder because you never know when the end is near. You just never know. So it helped me cherish the moment, I must say, and kept boxing. Started taking a little Judo made me realize you have to be in a military mind state. This sounds bad now, listening to it, but we re in a perpetual state of war almost. It might not be an act of combat, but it s a perpetual state of war and you never know when something can happen or when you re under attack. I do it not to be offensive. Defensive.  Scott Yeah. And there s always potential. Even if you re not seeing actual violence, the potential is there. Jayson It always can happen, yes.  Scott Tell us about your comedy career. You have a YouTube channel. How long have you been doing that? Jayson Oh my gosh. I started comedy– after college, I went to New York. I started off doing print work. That s why I went to New York City and I stayed, and I did that for pretty much the entire 20 years. But in the middle of it, someone told me, “You want to get seen by more casting directors, you should do standup. They re always at the clubs.” So I started comedy and I ve been doing that for roughly almost a quarter of a century. Good Lord.  Scott Wow.  Jayson How time flies. My first 15 years in New York though. That was the safe New York. Party and be inebriated and just walk home because you didn t think anything would happen. That s another thing. Alcohol is out the window because you have to always be cognizant of your surroundings. I have to always be cognizant of my surroundings so I don t drink. Maybe on New Year s Eve or something, I might have champagne or whatever. My comedy style is very, I don t say political, per se– social commentary. I have a lot of social commentary and a lot of it is shaped by this incident that we spoke of, for sure.  Scott Do you tell this story as part of your act?  Jayson Yes, I ve been working on it probably for the last four or five years, but it s really hard to say– how do you start off a joke with “I m going to hit a white motherfucker with this brick”? So it takes a lot of artistry and craft, but it works. It definitely works.  Scott Is this your full-time job? I understand you were a teacher at some point also, right?  Jayson Yeah. I have two full-time jobs. One is comedy and I work as an educator. My technical term is called an interventionist. There are a lot of kids that are two or three grade levels behind reading and math, so I do interventions and help bring them up to speed.  Scott Wow, that s interesting that term because, in this situation, you were also an interventionist.  Jayson Oh my goodness. I never thought about that. Wow.  Scott You got to work that into your act now, right?  Jayson Oh yeah. I m totally stealing that. Are you kidding me? No, because I always thought of myself as a translator. Like I could take this and explain it to them. I do have an affinity for foreign languages. But now that you put it that way, yes, let s title this episode, “The interventionist.” Scott It might be something like that. I don t know.  Jayson Oh my gosh. Thank you for sharing.  Scott You better write that down. Jayson I m writing this down.  Scott Do you keep a notepad next to your bed so that when you get an idea for a joke, you don t forget it? Jayson Yes. Notepad or my cell phone.  Scott Oh yeah. Just record it on your phone. Yeah.  Jayson Yep. Look at this, see. You just never know where inspiration is going to come from. Scott Well, we ll have a link to your YouTube channel so people can go watch your comedy.  Jayson They could go to my website if they want to find out where I m performing, and they could join my mailing list. It s jaysoncross.com. And they can find me on social media at JasonCrossComedy. Scott That s Instagram and– Jayson Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, X. I m on X as well.  Scott Well, I ll put links to all that so people can go find that. And you re going to be appearing here in my area.  Jayson Yes. St. Pete Beach.  Scott Yeah.  Jayson Is it St. Pete Beach or St. Petes’ Beach?  Scott St. Pete. Singular.  Jayson Singular. St. Pete Beach. Yes. I ll be in St. Pete Beach at Coconuts Comedy Club, at the Trade Wind Resorts on May 30th. It s going to be an amazing show. You could come here about this. You could come here at the Prelude, the aftermath. Yes, you could hear this whole story, but in a more comical way.  Scott Right, yeah. That is going to be interesting. If I can make it, I m going to try to attend that show, but it ll be interesting to see how you have crafted a story about an attempted murder into a comedy act. Jayson With great difficulty, I must say. The rate of difficulty, I put it on at least a 9 , but what inspires me is Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor attempted suicide by setting his himself on fire, and it s the funniest joke he ever wrote called Pryor on Fire. I don t know if you re familiar with his comedy. Scott Yeah, I remember that.  Jayson He has an entire bit about setting himself on fire, so I said if he could make that funny, I could make this funny. Scott Jason, thanks for coming on, sharing your story.  Jayson Thank you for having me on. It s been a pleasure. It s actually a catharsis to relive and speak about the situation and then actually see the positive outcomes of it. Scott Even before we talked about Jayson’s comedy career, you might have been able to pick up on his sense of humor just in the way he tells a story. And I can tell you he’s a funny guy. Just go to YouTube and search Jayson Cross Comedy if you want to have some laughs. And of course I’ve got links to all his socials in the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/255. You know, when I started this podcast about 8 years ago, I had to spend a lot of time finding guests to talk to. But it’s different now – most of the stories come from the audience; people who listen to the show. If you’ve been thinking “Hmm… I wonder if my story is crazy enough to be a What Was That Like episode” – well, let’s find out. Just go to the website, WhatWasThatLike.com, and click where it says “Your Story”. That’s where you can send me all the details. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And remember, you can sign up to support the podcast by going to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS, or on an iPhone just click on Try Free – you’ll get every episode ad-free, plus there’s more than 50 bonus episodes that are exclusive to supporters. And once again, we’re about to hear this week’s Listener Story. Every main episode ends this way – just an audio story that was sent in by a listener, usually around 5-10 minutes long. You can record yours on your phone and email it to [email protected]. This listener tells about a pretty amazing coincidence. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener Story) It was a few months ago when I traveled to San Diego for an art workshop because I m an artist. The first morning, the teacher asked us to share something about ourselves and introduce ourselves to the group. Everybody had their turn and I went last. I introduced myself as I always do, and I said, “Hi, I am Aida. I m originally from Venezuela, but I live in Seattle.” And then I went into my little spiel about my work. Then, after I was done, the lady to my left turned around and said, “Oh my gosh, what a coincidence. There s two of us Venezuelans in this workshop.” So we start laughing because yes, it is kind of crazy that happened. We started chatting and kind of explained our situations and our immigration stories and how we got here, when we got here, if we had any relatives left back there at home.  We spent a while chatting and then I started telling her about my art and I use collage materials as part of my mixed media art. I have been recently using Venezuelan bolivar, which was the currency back in the day that is now worth basically less than the money it s printed on. I have my uncle back in Caracas that has been collecting them for me for years, so he has a stack that he s trying to send, but I tell her like, I don t have anybody that comes back and forth because this is not something you can send in the mail. She said, “Oh, well I have a cousin that goes from Caracas to Miami a lot. Maybe I could ask him to get in touch with your relative and he could do the favor for you.” So I said, “Okay, great.”  Well, we exchanged our information and I gave her my name and my last name. My married name is very German sounding, so I said, “My maiden name is Rojas.” She looked at me and she said, “Oh, Rojas?! My best friend from Venezuela growing up was Rojas.” And I thought in my head that there s millions of Rojas in Venezuela. It s like Smith or Johnson or Thompson. So I just tell her, “Yeah, well, what s her name?” She said Marialba Rojas and I just almost fell off my chair. I m like, “What? That is my dad s sister!” And she s like, “Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Let s make sure we have the same person.”  Marialba is not a common name, but I start asking her like, does she have a twin? Yes. Does she have two brothers? Yes. Does she live in Valencia? Yes. And then we re like, it has to be the same person. We just start screaming and laughing and talking nonstop and exchanging information and stuff. Then, she asked me, are your parents Carlos and Andy? And I m like, yes. She s like, “Oh my gosh, I love your parents. By the way, I met you when you were a baby and I met you again at age eight one time we visited New York.” So this is just all so crazy. We start comparing stories and she starts telling me all about my aunts and uncles and my grandparents, growing up there with my parents– they were all one big group of friends because they were all the same age, and Vivian was not only an acquaintance, she was kind of part of my family. She knew my grandparents really well. They would spend weekends together. She would come over on vacation with my family and she was like another sister really.  So, we call my parents on FaceTime and they also cannot believe it. “Oh my gosh, we ve been thinking about you for so many years. We didn t know where you were.” And all this stuff. And then, she says, “Yes, I ve been looking for your family and for Marialba for 20 to 30 years, and I didn t know anything about her and I kind of gave up trying because I just kept hitting dead ends.” She got in touch with my parents. And then she starts asking me about everybody and who married whom and how s this person doing to catch up on 30 years of my family history.  Then, that night, I got a message from my aunt also crying, saying, “Oh my gosh, Vivian, my dear friend, I had lost hope that I was ever going to find you after 30 years looking for you.” And they finally got in touch. Sadly, they might not ever meet in person because getting to and from Venezuela is really hard. So the days went on and we kept finding coincidences like she was at my parents wedding as a witness, and she was the maid of honor at my aunt s wedding and her little brother and my mom s little sister went out for a little bit while they were in boarding school in Florida, and the coincidences just kept going on and on.  So we got to know each other really well. We were in touch. We are texting each other, sending pictures back and forth. I recently visited San Diego and took my family to meet her, and we are now connected. So I just realized in that moment how important it is to open up and to get to know people even as they are strangers, because you just never know what you might find, what connections you might make, and I m so happy and grateful that I was open that day and that I did share my story and I found basically almost like a new relative.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What makes you weird? Links for this episode: Meredith’s episode on circumcision: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-310-american-circumcision-preference-or-cultural/id1483941440?i=1000727817532 A scene from Friends without the laughtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgKgXehYnnw How to diagram a sentence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deiEY5Yq1qI Meredith’s coloring book of farting animals: https://a.co/d/06gcYpCP RideSafer travel vest for kids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmlD0C61_bY Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Sponsor deals: Visit www.functionhealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up. Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns! Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month MintMobile.com/WHAT

Today’s episode is a little different. If you’re a regular listener to the show, you know that usually we hear a story from a regular person about something they’ve experienced that was extremely unusual. We have over 250 episodes like that – plane crashes, mass shootings, animal attacks, and lots more. And it’s not all trauma stories – we have some happy ones too. But sometimes we change it up, and I have a guest on who has a really unusual job. I’ve talked to Spence, who’s a lighthouse keeper, and Dan, who prepares people for their first time going to prison, and Jen – who works as a professional bridesmaid. You can scroll through all the back episodes and find those and a few more. So today I’m speaking with Elaina. As a young person, she was hired to work at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World – as Mickey Mouse. You know, when you’re at Disney World, and you’re walking around trying to decide if you go ride the Space Mountain roller coaster, or take a break in the air conditioning and watch the Country Bear Musical Jamboree, and all of a sudden you see standing right in front of you is – Mickey Mouse. Waving, signing autographs, and just making people happy. Yeah, that’s what Elaina did. She also played Minnie Mouse, and a few other characters sometimes. We talked about how she ended up getting that job, what it’s like to wear the costume, what would get you fired, and the celebrities she crossed paths with. And of course, what everyone wants to know about – the infamous tunnels UNDER Disney World. You’re gonna get all the behind-the-scenes stuff today. And why is this episode titled “Elaina was FRIENDS with Mickey”? She’ll explain that too. First day on set as Robin Hood Elaina as Minnie at Chef Mickey s at the Contemporary Elaina as Mickey in a wedding Elaina as Whiskers at local elementary school Elaina with her Whiskers head If you’d like to contact Elaina, she’s in the Facebook group https://WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/254 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Today’s episode is a little different. If you’re a regular listener to the show, you know that usually we hear a story from a regular person about something they’ve experienced that was extremely unusual.  We have over 250 episodes like that – plane crashes, mass shootings, animal attacks, and lots more. And it’s not all trauma stories – we have some happy ones too. But sometimes we change it up, and I have a guest on who has a really unusual job. I’ve talked to Spence, who’s a lighthouse keeper, and Dan, who prepares people for their first time going to prison, and Jen – who works as a professional bridesmaid. You can scroll through all the back episodes and find those and a few more. So today I’m speaking with Elaina. As a young person, she was hired to work at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World – as Mickey Mouse. You know, when you’re at Disney World, and you’re walking around trying to decide if you go ride the Space Mountain roller  coaster, or take a break in the air conditioning and watch the Country Bear Musical Jamboree, and all of a sudden you see standing right in front of you is – Mickey Mouse. Waving, signing autographs, and just making people happy. Yeah, that’s what Elaina did. She also played Minnie Mouse, and a few other characters sometimes. We talked about how she ended up getting that job, what it’s like to wear the costume, what would get you fired, and the celebrities she crossed paths with. And of course, what everyone wants to know about – the infamous tunnels UNDER Disney World. You’re going to get all the behind-the-scenes stuff today. And why is this episode titled “Elaina was FRIENDS with Mickey”? She’ll explain that too. Scott How hot is it inside that costume and how did you deal with that? That s the most common question, it seems like, everyone wants to know.  Elaina It is always the most asked question. It is hot, but it is like a different hot. If I could explain, it s like, now, the Florida heat is on you. It s different if you were, let s say, under a rug. So it s more like a sweltering heat where it s just kind of sitting around you. It s not direct heat. It feels different, but the amount of time that you re in costume helps alleviate what you re feeling in the costume, so it is definitely hot in there in the summer.  Scott Yeah, I can imagine. Let s talk about how you got started in this. This started when you were 18 and you were in Orlando. What were you doing there?  Elaina I had just started college at University Central Florida in Orlando. I was 18. It was 1995. I was living on campus and walking around campus and there was a gym, and the gym had a corkboard on the outside and there were all these different flyers posted, and one of them was, “Can you dance or are you small?” which, of course, caught my attention because I m 4’ 11”. So I thought, “Huh, that s interesting.” Of course, it said Walt Disney World and, as a kid, you re just like, “That would be so cool.” So that s really all it said. It might have said something about character auditions, but I didn t know very much. I mean, I just thought that would be fun. Let me try it.  Scott Now I m curious about the dancing part. Do Disney characters actually dance as part of the job?  Elaina The reason they ask if you can dance is mainly because they ask if you can move, so it s more about movement and, eventually, characters can move into, let s say, higher positions where they end up in a show. There s two segments of characters. There s just the characters that you see sign autographs, and then there s other ones that are in, like, another department and they re called entertainment. So the same characters on stage are not usually the same characters that you see signing autographs. I think the goal obviously is to bring in people that can move, that can dance, that eventually could move into those positions. Scott I assume the notice just gave an address and a time and date for auditions. What happened when you got there? How many people were there?  Elaina It was a full gymnasium, so the flyer obviously said, “Come on a Saturday” or something like that. You got there and let s say there were probably over a hundred people, all different shapes and sizes. Obviously, they were targeting the college kids. We got there and they gave us a number, so it was really like a regular audition. Now, I hadn t really been on a regular audition, so I didn t know much about it, but they gave me a number and then they started with teaching us a very simple dance combination. Scott And how did you feel about your performance in that first round?  Elaina Well, the first one was very simple and, to this day I mean, you re talking 30 years ago I still can remember the first dance combination. They put us in two lines and at the end of the line were two people that worked for Disney, and you had to skip and do a jazz box, and then you had to snap very simple but you had to do that all the way across the floor as you came up to these two people. And as you came up to them, they would point left or right based on whether you made it or not past that first round. That one was super simple. I was like, “I got this. No big deal.” So that was the first one. The second one– Scott You moved on to round two now.  Elaina Round two was very interesting. They brought us out in groups. If you ve ever watched I don t know like the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders or one of those shows where they bring everybody out in little groups, they teach you all a dance combination and then they bring out each group separately. I don t remember how many people were in that group definitely less than 10. They taught us this dance combination that was fairly difficult and the biggest thing that I remember about it is that the end of it had this, like, big fan kick and I just remember goofing and being like– I really did terrible on that. I just know for a fact I did not nail that dance, but I remember fan kicking and then doing something very silly, just some silly dance move and just was smiling and just being goofy.  Scott When you sent that to me, you said that it was the fan kick that you purposely flubbed. Elaina Because I didn t know how to do it.  Scott Okay. You were trying but you just didn t know.  Elaina I didn t know. I mean, I could attempt to fan kick, but I was no dancer– I mean, I loved to dance. That was one of the reasons that I wanted to do it because I had always loved to dance. I was no way a trained dancer. So fan kick was not my thing, but I was like, “I ll just go for it.” Scott It s not like Mickey or Minnie are out there doing fan kicks anyway, right? I mean, it s not a skill that you really need.  Elaina No. That s why I think it was like, “What are we doing here?” So it was a little much for– although I m not sure I knew that at the time. I don t think I knew enough about what the characters actually did in the park to know whether or not that was called for or not. So yeah.  Scott So was that the whole audition or what happened after that?  Elaina Pretty much for characters that are in costume, which I ll refer to as fur characters, which are characters in costume. Then there are face characters. Face characters are your princesses. They re all the people that usually talk. Scott Like Snow White.  Elaina So that s a face character. Yes, yeah. So those are face characters. So if you re in fur, that was the extent of it.  Scott You were cast as what you called “mouse height” for Magic Kingdom. How did you get that news?  Elaina They took us separately to, let s say, offer us the position I remember being one-on-one with someone, it must have been probably somebody in just casting and they said they would offer me the position at– and again, I didn t know the difference between– I thought you just got hired. I didn t know there was specifics to “You got hired for certain parks”, but if you re a Magic Kingdom character, you re a Magic Kingdom character. You re not an Epcot character. So you don t pass between the four parks. So I was Magic Kingdom. Then they said, “Just based on height alone, it’s which height range you fall into.” It s not like they were going to say to me, “You re Donald Duck.” It wouldn t work, obviously. I m not in that height category. So just by nature, I was “mouse height”.  Scott You were mouse height. And that s like everybody s dream, right?  Elaina I think so. I mean, again, I auditioned and had no clue really what I was auditioning for. I don t even think I knew that Mickey and Minnie were that height. I probably thought they were smaller, to be honest. And so when you get that news, I was like, “Oh really? I m actually mouse height? That s super cool.” And I feel like mouse height went from about 4’9” to maybe 5 1 , maybe 5 2 . But 5’2” is a pretty tall mouse. We ll probably talk about how shifts are done but, if you re back to back, your other mouse that s out there with you, if there’s too much of a height discrepancy, it s pretty noticeable to people when one mouse comes out and then the next mouse comes out and they re a little bit taller, so they try to keep you close in height. Scott And I never thought about the height. I ve been to Disney World. I ve seen Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse walking around. Never thought about height. But then, now that I think about that, it would be kind of weird to see a 6’ Mickey Mouse,  Elaina I mean, the costumes are made for just certain sizes. Same with face characters. Obviously, when you go to a face audition, they re definitely looking for height on those. But yeah, there s definitely duck height, mouse height, chipmunk height, Pluto height and goofy height. So that s your five heights. Certain costumes fit in those categories of height ranges. Scott Now, at the time, you were a college student, and so you would be expected to get to Magic Kingdom to work a shift. Did you have a car at the time?  Elaina I did not. It was my first year of school. Going to UCF at the time, you could not be a freshman and have a car on campus I think, maybe you had to pay or something like that, but I know that my first year. My parents were like, “Nope, you don t need a car, you re going to be fine.” So I just got there. It was August. I believe that the auditions were probably for a holiday season. They really ramp up their hiring around the holidays, so maybe it was October, November. So I was already calling back to my parents and asking, “Is there any way that I could get a car? I really need a car because I just got a job at Disney World and Disney is an hour away from the University of Central Florida.” When all is said and done, from driving from college campus to the backstage area not just thinking of Disney World right off I-4, the main highway you actually have to go backstage and it s quite a ways back there. So it s about an hour drive.  Scott I guess your parents relented.  Elaina Yeah, they did. They were like, fine. I mean, I m sure they were probably excited and thought it was super cool.  Scott Yeah, it s a big opportunity.  Elaina Yeah.  Scott Talk about the training. First of all, it started with what you call Disney Traditions. What is that?  Elaina So Disney Traditions, they still do it to this day. Anyone that becomes a cast member for Disney ends up going through their training and there s a whole training building and it s very organized. Traditions essentially is a week-long training to give you the history of Disney and then talk to you about the specifics of what you can and can t do. At the time, it was fairly strict. I mean, you couldn t have dark nail polish. Your nails couldn t be a certain length. Your hair had to be a certain way. There was, I don t think, facial hair. It was very strict back 30 years ago with how you looked. They would talk about backstage areas and being a cast member and what that meant. So just really history of Disney and try to make you drink a little bit of the Kool-Aid, to be honest.  Scott Right. That s company culture.  Elaina Sure. Company culture.  Scott They have a brand to protect and they have to be very specific about that. Then, you went into character training. How long did that last? Elaina Character training, for most, was another three days, unless you were mouse height. Mouse height had an extra two days at the end of the week. So the training is a full week, and the first three days are regular character training, and then the last two days of it are for mouse height.  Scott You said they re very focused on how to move and act. What does that mean?  Elaina Well, it s funny. Some people don t even register that the characters don t talk, but they don t. And so a lot of movement training is associated with pantomime and learning how to emote and do things without speaking. So the first part of the training is a lot of standing in a dance studio with full mirrors and watching yourself in the mirror as they give you different scenarios, watching yourself try to do these different things while not speaking. One of the exercises that they had us do is, I remember us standing in a circle and they handed us the top of a trash can, a circle trash can lid, and they passed it around one by one. Each person had to come up with something to do with this lid. Be creative. Some people put it on the top of their head like a hat. One person used it like the steering wheel, somebody else rolled it on the ground like a wheel. So that was the goal of a couple different sessions of trying to come up with creative ways to say something without saying something. Scott One of the listeners had a question about the underground Disney tunnels. You first saw those during training, right? What are those?  Elaina I might have even seen them during tradition. Magic Kingdom is built on the second floor. The way that Magic Kingdom was built is that the first whole floor is underground tunnels. None of the other parks are built this way, but Magic Kingdom is, and the tunnels are essentially just a way for cast members to move unseen throughout the park. Lots of entry and exit points throughout the tunnels to get into the park so that they re not walking amongst guests. The tunnels serve not only that purpose, but there s administrative offices down there, and there are also backstage areas for, say, face characters. They have a makeup room and then the characters have the zoo. The zoo is where you get your costumes. There s locker rooms down there because, in most cases, Disney employees or cast members don t come to work in costume. They get changed in the locker rooms. I m not sure if it s like that anymore, but that was the way it was then, is that you had to get changed when you got to work. The reason was because there was a pickup place for regular costumes as well, so if you worked retail, that costume still had to be picked up at a costume window. So you never really took those home, not at that time and the goal of that was to obviously make sure everybody looked fresh and clean and they weren t relying on you to iron your costume. It was part of looking nice. Scott Yeah. It s keeping on brand the whole way through. It s really the whole thing. Pretty impressive actually. Okay. Each new trainee got a costume head. What was your first experience with putting on the head?  Elaina To be honest, it was terrible. I remember the first head and costume I wore out on set, actually, in front of people. I remember that costume. That was Robin Hood. That one was terrible and I can go into why that was terrible.  Scott Yeah. What made it terrible?  Elaina Because Robin Hood s a fox and his head was super stiff and his visibility was atrocious. It was like two little beady eyes. I know a lot of people talk about visibility and all costumes are very different when it comes to visibility. Some of them out of the mouth, some of them out of the nose. Some of them, you can see out of the mouth and the eyes. Some of the eyes sit too high on the head where you are not even near the eyes. So it appears as if the eyes would be where you re looking out of and you re probably looking out of the mouth. So because his mouth was hardly open, his visibility was his eyes and they were close together and they were tiny. Your peripheral vision was, like, non-existent. That was my first experience out on set in costume. It was probably one of those scariest things I ve ever done.  Scott But you were cast as a mouse. Did you go out as Robin Hood the first time just so they could get you comfortable just being out there? Elaina Yeah, that s right, because they obviously did not want me out as a mouse. Not that you would screw anything up, but they were trying to just plop us into different areas with– and way back then, characters were just on the street. I recently went to Disneyland and they still do that at Disneyland but, at Disney World, they re pretty isolated into certain character meeting areas. But at that time when you were in training, they were just like, “Let s grab you a costume that s in your height range and we don t want to draw too much attention to you by making you Mickey or Minnie. So let s put you in Frontier Land and let s grab some obscure character that not anyone is like rushing to get to. We ll just throw you out in Frontier Lane and see how it goes.” Scott Yeah. You re getting stage time, pretty much.  Elaina Exactly.  Scott You have talked about how hot it is inside there. Are the heads cleaned after the previous person used it and sweated in it? Elaina If you think about it, essentially, you re sweating inside the head, but you re only touching the headgear. So the sweatiness of your head– you first of all are wearing a cloth head cap, and so it s like a cloth beanie that s tied around the back, so it kind of covers your hair. So that s kind of catching your sweats. You re always wearing a skull cap. On top of that, you re in the headgear. It s plastic and they pop into the head. So in most cases, you have your own headgear that you pop into each head. So it s your own head that has been touching this headgear. Same with the chin strap. So if you do wear a chin strap which I always loved wearing, which is like a football helmet chin strap that s attached to that headgear– or in my case, I just loved two safety pins and a nice thick piece of elastic, and that allowed me to really feel secure in my head so that I could move around easy. So those two pieces were yours. It was my chin strap, it was my headgear.  At the same time, when you went for your shift and you picked your head– when you went into the area, there were a bunch of posts on the wall with all the heads, and so you knew that your shift was Mickey. You would go into the zoo and you would pick whichever Mickey head, and there s no rhyme or reason. You d sometimes look inside them and be like, “Okay, does this one work well with my headgear that I need to snap in?” And so you d pick the Mickey head, and at that time there was cleaner there. It was called Stir Back Blue. I don t know if that s a real cleaner, but that is what we used. You would spray out the head and there were towels there and you would kind of wipe it down really quickly and then you would spray the anti-fog on the eyes if you looked out the eyes, which you do in Mickey and Minnie. Spray out the eyes, wipe that down. The same thing is when you turn it back in, you were responsible for spraying the Stir Back Blue back into the head and then placing it back on the headstand.  Scott The rookie gets Robin Hood the first time. How soon were you actually in a Mickey or mini costume out there? Elaina Probably the next day. And to be honest, it was very unlikely for me to be in anything else but Mickey and Minnie because Mickey and Minnie needed to be kind of everywhere. So there are other characters that I did a lot of. For instance, from Pocahontas, I was Meeko. He s the raccoon. Meeko always do dinner at Liberty Tavern, which is a restaurant in Magic Kingdom. So if I was scheduled that dinner, I would do Meeko. Crystal Palace is a restaurant in Magic Kingdom, and that was always Winnie the Pooh.  Scott You were also scheduled for different kinds of things.  Elaina Yeah.  Scott From what you told me, hotel, breakfast, parades, stuff like that. Elaina Yeah. Usually, what would happen is they would schedule you a breakfast. That would be like your first shift in, which had a terrible call time of 5.30 in the morning, which meant that a college student was driving an hour from college from 4.30 in the morning. I remember those days. Well, sometimes, never going to sleep.  Scott Hey, that s show business, right?  Elaina Right. I remember being so tired on breakfast shifts. Call time, 5.30 in the morning, get to the zoo, pick up your costume. So that was breakfast. And then usually there would be, like, a break in the middle of the day, and then maybe you were scheduled for the daytime parade. So even if breakfast ended at noon, you then were sitting around until about 2 because the parade is 3 o clock. So you were sitting around until about 2, and then they brought you back to get you suited up and it might be a different costume. So you might be doing Mickey or Minnie at the Chef Mickey s breakfast at the Contemporary and then, in the afternoon, you might be Jiminy Cricket in the daytime parade. And then you might be sitting around waiting for the Spectrum Magic Parade, which was the LightUp parade at the end of the day. So it was a mixture, but a lot of waiting around, to be honest.  Scott I understand you were only in character for certain periods of time and then you would swap out. So were there always two Mickey s? Elaina Yes. There were always two of every character. So if I go back to Chef Mickey s at the Contemporary, the shift would include– I think you might have Chip Dale, Mickey, Minnie, Goofy. That one has a lot of characters at Chef Mickey s breakfast or dinner. They have all day, pretty much, character dining. So each character has a back to back that’s what they called them. So there were always 2 Mickeys, 2 Minnies, and then you were out on set between 30 to 45 minutes. Usually, if it was an indoor space that’s air conditioned, you probably were in 45-minute sets. If you were outside, usually 30 minutes. Scott And then there was also what you called an escort. Did you always have one of them with you and what did they do?  Elaina In most cases, going back to Chef Mickey s, there s probably an escort or two, and they were just always out there in costume, not character costume, but they were in Disney attire with a regular name tag and they were just monitoring and watching the characters, making sure that nothing was wrong with the character. So they kind of worked the room and made sure that you were okay and they were also there to tell you when it was time, that you had five minutes left. So they were always giving you a cue and then you just did it by your own feeling of okay, they said I had five minutes left. Then, when you thought five minutes was up, you would then start walking backstage. So you d finish up at the table that you were at and then you d just walk back. Scott When you were there with the escort, did that person speak?  Elaina Yeah, they would speak to guests and they would say, “Mickey s getting ready to go take Pluto for a walk. So he s almost done.” or something like that. Or if I was trying to walk from the last table to the backstage area, if I was getting caught up with a kid running up to me and hugging me, and I just couldn t get them off of me, the escort was there to be your voice to say, “Oh, Mickey s got to go. He s going to walk Pluto real quick. He ll be right back,” or something like that. But otherwise, you started to learn even as a character to, like, point at your wrist as in “I got to go”, or you put your finger up real quick to say, like, “Just one minute, just one second” and then you leave. I mean, it s literally so noticeable when one Mickey goes and the other one is standing there waiting. They re right there.  Scott Oh, but you don t want to have both of them seen at the same time?  Elaina Oh, no. Oh, no. Never.  Scott Right. Elaina Never.  Scott What celebrities did you meet?  Elaina I had been told that I met quite a few celebrities but, when you re in costume and you are running through a line, you really don t even notice that you re seeing people. At one point, I had met Meg Ryan. She was super big at the time that was during her heyday. She had come with, I believe, her son, who s an actor now, by the way. I m in a picture as Winnie the Pooh with them, but I didn t even know it. I went backstage and someone s like, “Oh my God, did you see that? You posed with Meg Ryan!” I was like, “No. Darn it!”  Scott You would ve enjoyed it more if you knew, right?  Elaina I would have. I probably would ve played it up more or something, but I just didn t know. The other one– let s see, I met John Denver. That one was a special event and it was some conference at one of the hotels and he was, I think, a guest speaker at the time. I was Minnie Mouse and I walked him in. So we went arm in arm. Now I didn t meet him as Elaina, so I never really got to meet him, per se. That was one. Another special event was Bryant Gumbel. I met him or walked with him into an event.  The biggest one was– at the Parade Route at Magic Kingdom, there is a bridge that takes you from the middle of Magic Kingdom kind of in front of the castle and over towards the haunted mansion. There s a bridge right there and it s called VIP Bridge. There s some seats that sit on the bridge, and that is where they usually put celebrities when they are in the park and they want to watch the parade. It s closed off. No people can walk past there or anything. So I was in the SpectroMagic Parade, which is the LightUp Parade, and I, the character that I was that night, was a Spectro Man. There was a large ball that was driven by a driver, and I sat on top of the LightUp Ball and I was like this robotic-looking weird character. I was all lit up.  I had a whole dance routine sitting on the top of this ball and my ball driver came across the bridge and was spinning me around and there was always a fun thing with the driver. He would jerk you forward as if you were going to hit somebody. So he spun me around on the bridge and dropped me kind of forward. And as I looked right in front of me on the bridge, it was Tom Hanks and Tim Allen because it was Toy Story time and I was like, “That is so cool.” So yeah, that was my big one where I was like, “Oh, that was so cool.” Scott That s amazing.  Elaina Yeah.  Scott I ve heard some people want to have Mickey or Minnie in their wedding. Elaina Yeah. At the time, it used to be like $500 a character, something like that for them to show up for 15 minutes or something crazy. Disney s big into weddings. They have enough hotels to put together weddings and they actually have the little wedding pavilion. They didn t have that at the time, but they did a lot of weddings at the hotels. Similar to the event where I went with John Denver, you would sign up for special events. There was a board that you would sign up and try to pick up shifts and that s where you would try to sign up for specials, and the weddings were on that board.  I did two weddings one I was Minnie Mouse and one I was Mickey and the costumes are different. So that was what was so fun about doing specials is that you weren t in Minnie Mouse’s red dress with the polka dots. You were in an evening gown that was sparkly. It was so cool to get dressed up as Minnie mouse and Mickey Mouse had on a cape and a top hat. So you got to wear all the special costumes, so that was so fun. Then, I m probably in people s wedding photos at this point. I remember doing the chicken dance and the guests all being like, “Look at Mickey! He knows the chicken dance!” Scott People just love coming into contact. You must have felt like a celebrity yourself.  Elaina It really does feel like that. I mean, who doesn t know Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse and these characters? From the time people are little kids, there s just this nostalgia that goes with it that little kids are excited to see them. Adults are even excited and the adults are crying watching their children interact with these characters, and there s just such a magic to it that, to this day, when I see my own children interact with them, I am like tearing up and my kids are just like, “What are you doing, mom?” There s just something about it that is, like, so heartwarming and touching and they really do treat you like you are a celebrity and little old you inside of there smiling away trying to make their experience magical that they hope it would be. Right? Scott Right, yeah.  Elaina So it took a lot to try to bring that to life for them. If you had a love for Disney yourself, you just naturally would do it.  Scott Can you talk about when you would meet some of the kids who were there because of the Make-A-Wish Foundation? Elaina Yeah, Make-A-Wish obviously has a big connection to Disney and, in most cases, if a child is coming for Make-A-Wish, they do get a special meet and greet. In some cases, they can ask for the character that they d like to see sometimes. It s also considered a special, so you would sign up for those. In the front of Magic Kingdom, it used to be up in the town square kind of area. So, up towards the train, there s like a certain little area up there that they would bring in the kids and the family. It was very quiet and very private. Those were the moments that would really just bring tears to your eyes when you were in costume and you really wanted to make it super special for them. You wanted it to be everything that they hoped it would be. It s their dream, right? It was their dream to come there. It was their dream to meet Mickey and to live up to that. You wanted to make it special for them.  Scott What more gratifying job could you have than making a child s dream come true? Elaina Honestly, what other job actually makes someone feel that way? Even as adults, sometimes, we d like, “Oh, I d love to meet the celebrity that I m such a big fan of.” I m a super big fan of Janet Jackson and I just recently met her at a meet-and-greet, and I was like a blubbering idiot as an adult, you know what I mean? Scott Yep. Starstruck is a real thing.  Elaina Yeah. So that s how it is with these characters and with the kids just staring at you like, “I don t even know what to say to you.” Scott We had a bunch of questions from listeners and so I m just going to go down here and ask some of these. Any myths about Disney Parks that you can bust as not true? Elaina Myths? Hmm. Probably has to do with a lot of the deaths. People are always like, “Are there a lot of stories of people dying?” And I m like, “I don t really know about all that.” That s one thing. The other myth– this is probably not breaking the myth, but there are talks about how the tunnels smell and the answer to that is they do smell. The tunnels smell and the tunnels have areas that drip and, every now and then, you hear the trash being sucked through tunnels. There are tunnels in the ceilings, and that s how they move the trash. So they are kind of stinky.  Scott So that s a rumor that is true then? Elaina That is a rumor that is true. There s that other myth of there s always that funny picture of a Mickey Mouse, like, half in costume smoking a cigarette in like the back. You would have to be completely out of costume to be doing anything like that. Scott Right. That brings another question. What would get someone fired instantly from Disney?  Elaina Well, first of all, probably taking your head off in front of anybody. So, coming right off set and not being past the line of visibility and somebody seeing you take your head off. That could definitely get you in big trouble. At the time, we did not have digital cameras and we did not have phones, and so we took a lot of pictures with real old school cameras where you d have to send your film away, and there was always nervous feelings about doing that if you sent away your film and there were inappropriate Disney pictures on it. So you always thought, “Oh gosh, I m probably going to get fired for that.” And I bet talking. To be honest, I mean, you really should not be talking on set.  Scott Was there ever a time when you– because that kind of thing accidentally breaks the belief of people when they see you in costume. Was there ever a time when you accidentally broke that belief?  Elaina Not talking, but definitely a few things. There were two situations that I can think of. One was being out on set and I remember a child being behind me and trying to unzip my Minnie dress. I remember that one because my escort wasn t close by enough for me to signal them that this kid was behind me. I also couldn t really feel it well, but that obviously is not– kids are very curious, so they re usually, like, at your feet sometimes trying to pick through your shoes to see are there people s feet in here. So that was one.  The other one is I was at a special event. I packed my costume and I forgot a– it s a full-head skull cap. It s black, and you wear that. Usually, if the head sits too high, you can see your neck. So, it s always just safe to have that piece of costume in case the head sits high. I did not have it. I forgot it. My head sat high and my skull cap didn t keep my hair contained and my hair started to drop out of the skull cap and down my neck and the kids at the event were like, “I see hair.” And I was devastated. I felt terrible. I mean, you were talking 30 years ago and I still remember feeling terrible that I had possibly ruined the magic.  Scott Another listener asked this. Did playing a silent character change the way you communicate with people in real life? Elaina I think it does. I think it really does because I think you just learn so many ways of communicating non-verbally. I m Italian. I use my hands a lot. I think maybe I have a natural gift to do it anyway, but I do think that you really are able to communicate better. The more you do it, the more you come up with ideas on how to say things. One time, I was sitting backstage and they were like, “We don t want you just sitting around. Let s go throw Minnie Mouse into fantasy land again.” This was 30 years ago. They would never do that now but, at that time, they were like, “Elaina, go put on Minnie Mouse. We ll get you an escort and go stand out by Dumbo.” So I came out the back gate and it was like paparazzi. I had gotten swamped. There was no actual line. The kids started to swarm me and I was backed up against this fence. To go back to that nonverbal, I remember I put my hands on my hips and I put my finger up and I was like, “Wait a minute.” And then I took both my hands and I said, “Back up.” And then I put my hands on my hips, crossed my hand, and I said, “I will not sign.” And I made the pantomime of, like, “One second, I won t do it and I m not going to sign.” And then I put my hands on my hips. That kind of connection of all those things that I had to say non-verbally. And then the escort said, “Ooh, Minnie s not happy. Everybody back up.” So then they became kind of your voice. But yeah, you definitely learn ways to communicate a string of things.  Scott Okay. Do you have to like kids or people to do this job, or does the costume create enough of a barrier that it s completely different from normal interactions? That s from another listener.  Elaina I think you probably could get away with not liking kids, but there s a part that s like you re making it happy for them. So I remember every time I took a photograph, I was smiling inside there. I thought my happiness and my excitement emoted out of my body. I liked kids. I liked entertaining more. So it wasn t always about the kids. It was about kids. It was about adults. It was about being goofy and being slightly shy and being covered by this costume that had its own life to it, right? People love these characters and you just have to be fun inside of it. So for me, I don t think you have to really like kids, but I do think that the costume itself takes on a life of its own that allows you to just– I don t know how you would be in there and not smile, to be honest. That s so wild to me that how are you not smiling in there when somebody s like taking a picture. So weird.  Scott Have you had any children vomit on you or have you had a diaper explode on you?  Elaina No, I mean, most parents are watching that. One of the things is, as a character, you can t pick up children, so you re not allowed to pick up kids when you re standing. If you were going to pick them up, you d be sitting down and then the parent usually has to place them on your lap. So even if you re sitting down, you shouldn t be the one that s picking them up off the floor. The parent has to place them on your lap, and it s usually super fast. So, no, I haven t ever had anything gross like that happen. Scott You got lucky. That s good.  Elaina I might have gotten lucky, for sure.  Scott What was the typical pay rate for this job?  Elaina Oh gosh, pay. Oh, good old Disney. Well, back then it was about $5.25 if you were fur. If you were entertainment, you got paid more which, again, entertainment is the characters that are in the shows or on stage. Face characters obviously got more as well.  Scott I don t know how that translates to today s dollars but, even back then, I mean, this is a position that so many people want to go into the entertainment industry, but it s obviously not for the money.  Elaina No, it s not. It is not for the money. I use it as a comparison. A lot of us that worked in the entertainment industry in Orlando at the time, a lot of us did like dual parks. Some worked at SeaWorld and they worked at Disney. I worked at Disney and I worked at Universal at the same time. For Universal Studios, at the time, I was in the Barney Show, so I was the yellow dinosaur, BJ. To compare pay, that would be considered like entertainment where the character s not just signing autographs, they re on stage. That was about $12 an hour. But I remember at that time, that was a lot. I feel like minimum wage at that time might have been 4.75. Scott It was something in that ballpark.  Elaina Yeah, it was pretty low like that. So at Disney, you thought, “Oh, I m making more than minimum wage. Not much.” And at Universal, you thought you were like banking it. You were like $11, $12 an hour 30 years ago.  Scott How long did you work for Disney?  Elaina I was there as a character for about three years. Then, after I hurt myself in costume– Scott What happened that ended the character job.? Elaina I had been doing a lot of Crystal Palace shifts as Winnie the Pooh. Winnie the Pooh at the time was a mouse-height costume. Since then, it has been redesigned probably because of the injuries. I like to always describe the Winnie the Pooh costume– Winnie the Pooh s head, his little red shirt was attached to his head. So you would turn the head over, you d put your arms inside the shirt, and you d lift the head on top of your head. The headgear sat where you looked out his big nose. So imagine that you are now carrying the weight of the eyes, the ears, the top of the head all sits way above your head, and the only way that you can look out is by the nose. So in order to sign autographs, you have to push your head down to kind of look, and that strain on the back of my neck and my upper back caused such pain that, by the time I had hurt myself so much in Winnie the Pooh, I was unable to hold Mickey s head on which Mickey and Minnie s head are the lightest heads. Sometimes, people will ask that, but they are. Minnie Mouse s head is the lightest of the light, and her eyes are perfectly centered like sunglasses. Mickey s eyes sit further apart, so you have a little bit of crazy visibility in the middle, like you don t really have good visibility in the middle, but still his head is fairly light. I would work Chef Mickey s and I would put on his chef hat on top of Mickey s head, and I couldn t do it. I couldn t bear the weight of that hat and lean forward again to sign autographs. I mean, Disney took care of me. They did run me through their own physical therapy. They put me through physical therapy, paid for all of it. I m sure, at some point, I signed my life away and signed something that made them not liable for that injury, but they did send me through physical therapy and then they found me a job at Coronado Springs and I worked front desk for years. So I overall probably worked at Disney probably six years.  Scott Did having this job on your resume help you later in life? Did you continue in the entertainment world?  Elaina Funny enough, I love to tell this kind of story because it sounds like I m making things up, honestly. But I started at Disney, I was in entertainment, and somehow I ended up working for the FBI for 8 years eventually. I worked at the FBI and became a trainer and a facilitator and standing up in front of people, essentially being back “on stage”. Did it connect? Sort of. I still think it did. I think there s part of being on stage and being comfortable in front of people. That translated to later in life and, even to this day, being the mascot at my kids previous elementary school. I still do that and occasionally jump into that costume. Scott That must bring back a few memories being in costume in front of a crowd of people.  Elaina It really does. And I swear the kids, they just love it, and that s not even a celebrity character, but these elementary school kids, when they see Whiskers the Wildcat, they are so excited and it really does bring it back for me. I love it. I love it.  Scott You live here in the Tampa Bay area. How often do you get over to Disney World?  Elaina Well, I was for a while when my kids were little. My kids are 13 and 10 now. Before that, we were very into it. I think the Florida heat has kept me away as well as the lines. The experience is a little bit different now, but I m also a part-time travel agent and I go on Disney cruises to just see what the product s about. So that has been an experience for me to see some characters on the ship. My kids are really big into “Mommy, tell them that you were ‘friends with Mickey’.” which is the way that people that work at the parks tell other characters that they have been in costume. If you say you were friends with Mickey, the other person knows that you had been in costume.  Scott That is interesting. So you don t want to ever say I was Mickey because, again, that breaks the belief again, right?  Elaina That s right. So you always say, “I was friends with Mickey.” On the cruise, that Mickey pretty much lost his or her mind and was hugging me and they re getting all excited. So there s a comradery between people that have done it. Then recently, actually, just this spring break, I took the kids to Disneyland because I m a fan and I m a lover of Disney and I wanted to see the difference, so I took them out to Disneyland. We obviously just went to that park, but we don t do a lot of Florida. It s super expensive. It s really hot. The lines are long, and I worked there, so I have been on all the rides like a million times.  Scott Of course, yeah.  Elaina Yeah.  Scott Final question, are there any sort of unseen benefits of being a character that maybe people wouldn t think about? Elaina I think besides the probably well known one of “You work for Disney, you can get into Disney anytime you want for yourself.” You used to be able to get 3 people in 12 times a year. It was a big perk. I think it s a little bit different now. I think they give cast members tickets and I don t know how often they do that, but I think it s still one of the big benefits obviously being able to get into the parks or allowing family members and things into the parks. The other thing is anytime you work breakfasts or dinners, the restaurants would feed you. So that was always fun because you knew you had breakfast. You d go, you d do your first set, like I said, 45 minutes, and then you d come back in and there d be a full breakfast waiting for you. So that was really nice. Liberty Tree Tavern was the restaurant and I used to do Meeko there and they had, like, prime rib. So, anything that the people were eating, we were eating back there too. Crystal Palace or 1900 Park Fair is a buffet at Grand Floridian, and they always had really good food too. Now think of that, you re like a struggling college student. You re only making $5.25, but you re literally in costume for 30 minutes, 30 minutes just hanging out, having fun with friends, having some dinner. It was the life. Scott I can imagine, yeah. I sure appreciate you coming on and sharing this story. I know a lot of people are going to find it super interesting.  Elaina Yeah, I m happy to answer any other questions, but I love talking about it. Scott I loved this conversation! Obviously Elaina is one of those lucky people to look back on a previous job and remember it with so much fondness. I really appreciate her for coming on and talking about it. And in the episode notes you can see some pictures of her, in costume – WhatWasThatLike.com/254, And I know, Disney is this huge corporate behemoth that owns hundreds of companies. But they definitely have cracked the code for making kids happy. Before I talked with Elaina, I went in the Facebook group and asked, “What questions would you want me to ask?” and included a bunch of them in our conversation. But if there’s something else you want to know, Elaina is actually IN the Facebook group so you can ask her directly. Join us over at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. And if you liked this episode, you might like episode 139, titled “Tricia smuggled her dad into Disney World” from back in May of 2023. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And once again, we’re at the end of this episode, which means – it’s Listener Story time. I learned a long time ago that the listeners of this podcast have some great stories of their own. So you are invited to record a story on your phone, just something interesting that happened to you that you can tell in about 5-10 minutes, and email it to me – [email protected]. This listener is someone you may have heard before, and she’s talking about her birthday. Stay safe, and I’ll see you next time. (Listener Story) My name is Hali. I m not only an avid listener of Scott s podcast, but I ve recorded an episode “Hali was saved by a friend” is my story if you d like to listen to it. Today, I am calling about a question you recently asked, Scott, which is, “Do you value your birthday or do you celebrate your birthday?” Or something like that. My story s a little interesting because, on my 35th birthday, I decided to go to the movies and ended up being involved in a mass shooting in Aurora, Colorado. That was obviously detrimental for many reasons, but also the fact that it happened on my birthday made it very interesting because I had always enjoyed my birthday and I had always loved sort of being Queen Hali for a day. It s my day, it s my birthday. I can ask for whatever I want. I can plan whatever I want. I can do whatever I want. I can do nothing and nobody will argue because it s my day, it s my birthday.  Then something terrible happened on my birthday and I thought, “Oh, how am I ever going to get over this, let alone and enjoy my birthday again?”  Fast forward. I did get over it not get over it, I did move past it and I did find many ways to enjoy my birthday again. The biggest thing was just the perspective of celebrating my life and celebrating that I get another birthday and that I have another birthday, and it really shifted my perspective from it just being my day to being joyful and grateful for every day.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What s something you and your spouse/partner will NEVER agree on? Links for this episode: Meredith s bird nest Curious Introvert episode about dating in midlife: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-318-dating-in-midlife-where-have-all-the-good-men/id1483941440?i=1000737048315 Curious Introvert episode about hoarders: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-324-the-hoarder-within-us-the-psychology-of/id1483941440?i=1000743021329 Meredith’s siphon pump: https://a.co/d/09RqMx0O Scott’s recommendation – find out if text was written by a human or by AI: https://GPTzero.me Meredith’s podcast is Meredith For Real – the Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Sponsor deals: Visit www.functionhealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up. Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns! Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month MintMobile.com/WHAT

Technology is making it more and more difficult to get lost. Right now, I’m here in my home in Florida. I could pull out my phone, type in any random address in, say, Washington state – the other end of the country. Roughly 3,000 miles away. And within a few seconds, I would have turn by turn audio directions that would enable me to drive directly to that address. I know, GPS isn’t always perfect, but it’s really an amazing example of technology. And usually it works so smoothly that we just take it for granted. But what if you’re on foot, and your phone’s battery dies? Now you have nothing to tell you which direction to go, and you have no way to contact anyone for help. That’s what happened to John. John told this story on the podcast about 7 years ago in one of the very early episodes. He was hiking in an area that he was not familiar with. And a hike in the deep woods that was only supposed to be a few hours turned into days. John Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/253 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Technology is making it more and more difficult to get lost. Right now, I’m here in my home in Florida. I could pull out my phone, type in any random address in, say, Washington state – the other end of the country. Roughly 3,000 miles away. And within a few seconds, I would have turn by turn audio directions that would enable me to drive directly to that address. I know, GPS isn’t always perfect, but it’s really an amazing example of technology. And usually it works so smoothly that we just take it for granted. But what if you’re on foot, and your phone’s battery dies? Now you have nothing to tell you which direction to go, and you have no way to contact anyone for help. That’s what happened to John. John told this story on the podcast about 7 years ago in one of the very early episodes. He was hiking in an area that he was not familiar with. And a hike in the deep woods that was only supposed to be a few hours turned into days. Scott   How would you describe your hiking experience? John  It’s something that I ve always enjoyed and loved, but it s not something that I m able to get out and do much a few times a year, but it s, kind of, something I ve been increasingly interested in and wanting to do more of. Scott  Have you hiked in this park before? John  I ve never been to this park before. Honestly, I didn t even hear about it until 2 days before I went there. Scott  Oh, wow. The park is Bryce Canyon National Park in Utah. How far do you live from that? John  I live in the Magic Valley in Idaho, so I m over 350 miles away. Scott  Okay. So, how did you end up at Bryce Canyon in Utah on a Monday afternoon?  John  Well, here’s a little backstory of how I ended up there as cheesy as it may sound, I was, kind of, on a spiritual journey of sorts. I quit the job that I had been at for over 7 years and I had been traveling. I met up with a friend in Utah who told me about Bryce Canyon. I was thinking about heading down towards the Grand Canyon, so she said, “On your way, you might as well head to Bryce Canyon.” So, that was pretty much what happened. I decided to head on down there and see what it was like. Scott  So, it’s kind of a spur of the moment but, sort of, planned as well on your way to a larger destination. John  Yeah. I just, kind of, wandered aimlessly with, sort of, a broad goal nothing specific in mind but I knew that, eventually, I want to hit as many interesting places as possible. Scott  Yeah, sounds like a good plan up until a certain point, I guess. So, you got to the Bryce Canyon National Park on a Monday. From when we record this, it only happened like a month ago. John  It s been just a month, yeah. Scott  So, you got to the park at about 3 o clock in the afternoon and the plan was to do what? How long were you planning to be out? John  When I got there, I almost turned around because there was an entrance fee and I didn t really know what this place was like. So, I got up to the gate, turned around, had a second thought, and was like, “Okay, well, let s just do this. I made it all the way here. I should just go.” So, the hesitation is, kind of, weird. Once I got there, I only intended on being there for a few hours maybe, go hiking for about 4 hours total back and forth. Scott  Where you went in from isn t just, like, a big huge wilderness there is actually a hiking path, right? John  Yes. From where I started hiking, there is an actual path and a clear trail, but that trail, kind of, gets covered up after so far. Apparently, they are not able to maintain all of the deeper trails because it is just so big, and they don t have the manpower to do it. Scott  All right. It s a huge area. Do you know how big this park is? John  I think I read it s around a 50-miles radius. Scott  That s a lot of space to get lost in.  John Yeah.  Scott When you started out, what were you wearing? John  All I had on me was a sweatshirt and shorts, so I wasn t really prepared to be out there for too long. Scott  Right. You weren t planning to be out for too long either. John  Definitely wasn t. Scott  Did you bring anything with you like supplies or water or anything? John   I had a Camelbak, snacks, blankets, a tent, a sleeping bag, and everything in the trunk of my car. I was very prepared up until I actually left the car. Scott  That s pretty ironic. You had all that stuff because you were already, sort of, on a trip anyway you were camping out in other places along the way. John  I was planning on it. Yeah, definitely. Scott  Did you have a phone?  John  Yeah, I had my phone. Actually, once I started down the trail the first time, I got about 10 minutes in. Then, I realized that there was kind of a hurry. There is a challenge that they had there s a sign that said, “There are these monuments to look for on the trail. So, with your map, you re supposed to take a picture and then, kind of, mark off the monuments that you re able to find” We ll come to the map in a moment. I actually went back to the car for about a half-hour to charge my phone it was, at least, about 70% when I charged it. Scott  Could you get a phone signal while you were out there? John   To a certain point maybe, let s say about an hour down and then nothing. Once you get a little ways away, you have no service at all. Scott  Because they don t put phone towers out in the middle of nowhere. So, you started out at 3 o clock. Just take us through that day. Like, when did you know you were lost and what did you do after that? John  When I got there, I saw that they had an approximate time for sundown I kept that in my mind. So, I was like, “Well, I have about 2-3 hours to walk down and then, maybe, 2-3 hours to walk back. Once I got going, I just kind of lost track of time because I was really feeling great and enjoying the walk it was beautiful down there. The next thing I know, honestly, was it was starting to get dark. Then, I was like, “It s about time to turn back.” I had a flashlight on my phone, so I figured it ll last long enough. If I lose my way, it would, at least, help me find my way in the dark it shouldn t be a big deal and just follow the trail. Once it got dark, I kind of realized that, maybe, I wasn t where I remember I ended up using my flashlight and realized that I had no idea where I was. I couldn t find my original trail and I ended up stepping in some water. It was so dark that I was, kind of, walking around, trying to figure out and find a place where I can just hang out for the night. I figured that it ll be fine in the morning. It s not my first time hanging out somewhere without a tent no big deal. I, kind of, got annoyed when I stepped into some streaming water you can hear it moving and didn t really have a choice but to sleep in wet socks and shoes that night. Scott   It s hard enough when you re lost during the day, but now with it being dark though When it got dark and you realize that you don’t know where you were going, you kind of resigned yourself, “Okay, I m going to spend a night here.” John  Yeah. At that point, I wasn t really too worried about it I figured that I ll just make the best of it and it ll be, kind of, a fun little story, “I got lost overnight and I made my way back. No big deal.” Scott  How cold was it? John  It really wasn t too bad on that first night. I don t really know the exact temperature, but I would say that it probably got down to somewhere around 40-45℉, so it was a little chilly. But I live in Idaho, so we re used to the cold, so it wasn t too bad. I was able to find a small alcove on the other side of that water to crawl in, block myself, and help keep myself warm. Scott   So you had a little bit of shelter…  John A little bit, yeah.  Scott Were you concerned about wild animals? John  A little bit, at first, just because I saw a sign about bears they said something like “Just leave the bears alone” which is good advice, of course. But since I didn t really hear anything the first night, it really wasn t on my mind too much. Scott  So, you got bedded-in for the night there. Did you actually sleep that night? John  Eventually, I got a little bit of sleep. The wind, kind of, picked up in the middle of the night and that didn t really help I, kind of, ended up getting a little chillier. Because I was in an unfamiliar place, I was definitely a little worried, so I didn t sleep great. But, eventually, I got a few hours. Scott  Okay. So, day 2 Tuesday… John  I decided, “This is it. I m gonna go ahead and check out the map that I had.” When you get in there, they actually give you a map. So, I was looking at my map and thinking, “Well, this is where I started. Since the water is over here, this has to be generally where I m at.” So, I started to follow what I thought was the correct direction. I made my way through these bushes that have thorns and it s very annoying to get bushwhacked. Eventually, I got to what looked like it should be the trail, but there was a tree that fell over and blocked that trail. So, I tried to go over or around, and that just keeps happening over and over again. So, eventually, at some point during the day, I decided to climb and see if I can see anything my car or the street. So, I climbed up as high as I could and everything looked the same. I mean, there are slightly different colored rocks, but I couldn t see anything different at all. When I climbed down, I’m pretty sure that I just climbed down on the other side. So that, kind of, started me getting more lost than I already was, if that makes sense. Scott  That s one of the things I was going to ask you what was the terrain like? Is it all rocky or forest? What was that like? John  It was definitely a mixture. Where I was at is mostly forest. There are a lot of bushes, tall grasses, and trees. There are definitely parts of it where it s just rock. There are a lot of weeds. I didn t realize that once I got to the top, I was looking around and I got turned around. So, when I got down to the other side, even though it all, kind of, looks the same, there are certain landmarks, trees, and things like that, that you can pick out, but it still looked a little bit different from where I was just at. At that point, I was starting to get a little frustrated, but all I could do was just keep walking and finding my path. Again, I looked at the map and what I thought was the correct direction ended up nowhere. Scott  By ‘nowhere’, you mean you didn t see anything familiar at all as you kept walking? John   I just kept walking all day. By the second day, I was starting to get pretty thirsty. I didn t have any water at that point. I didn t think of drinking from the stream yet the stream that I stepped in that first night. I didn t see it. I couldn t tell what the water was like. When I woke up the next day, I should have thought about it, but I just didn t. I was thinking, “Well, it will certainly gonna take me a couple of hours to get to my car.” I wasn t really thinking about anything else. So, by the end of the second day, I was starting to get real thirsty. I didn t even make my way back to that stream until the third day I just walked and walked and walked all day that Tuesday. Scott  So you actually haven t had anything to drink since Monday. John Yeah.  Scott So you had nothing to eat or drink since Monday late afternoon or evening. John  Nothing to eat or drink. By the time I think it was probably about Wednesday afternoon I finally made my way back to the stream and started drinking from it, the sun was definitely warm and kept beating down on me. I did some more climbing to try and figure out where the hell I was. The climbing, again, was unsuccessful because everything looked the same pretty much. So, I got down and just kept walking some more. That night was freezing. The wind was blowing very hard. I ended up waking up somewhere very early on Wednesday morning in the rain. Scott   How did you sleep on Tuesday night? Where did you find the sleep? John  I tried to find, kind of, a tree. There are trees but they re not a very good shelter, so I tried to lay under the branches the best I could tried to find it where it was thickest and it still wasn t enough. I was drenched. Scott  So it started raining sometime early Wednesday morning and you woke up lost, cold, outdoors, and soaking wet. John  Yeah. That wind on Thursday, Wednesday, and Thursday night is so unbelievably cold it was the coldest I ve ever experienced. I mean, I ve been out camping and hiking at terrains like most of us have, but that was hands-down the coldest. You can hear the wind coming from miles away it s almost like a train and, then, once it hit you, it just chills you to the bone. Scott  So what happened on Wednesday? John  Wednesday is when I started to get really frustrated. I woke up and I just couldn t believe it. I was thinking to myself, “How did I let this happen?!” I was, kind of, getting to the point where I was thinking, “This might not end well.” I was still keeping hope, so I just keep walking. At some point, when I did find that stream again, it was the most satisfying thing, even though it wasn t much. I tried to use my hands as a cup to drink from that stream but it was unsuccessful. So, basically, I got down like a deer and just started lapping it up. I drank as much as I could but, then, I kind of got a second wind. I realized, “Okay, I m going to try this again.” Again, I looked at the map, did my best, and then I got to a certain point where I felt like, “This is it! I think I found my way!” There s a fence over here on the map. There are other land formations. Again, what is supposed to be my trail that leads directly to my car ended up leading me to just more trees and no trail. Scott  So, you built up that hope that you are almost back where you’re supposed to be, but then you realized that you re still just as lost as you were. John  I guess you could say that I was feeling very hopeful at one point. Then, by the end of the day, I realized that I m going to be sleeping here for one more night. I was, I guess, downtrodden. I was not only annoyed, but I was just very disappointed in myself that I let myself get to this point. Scott  Without anything to eat, you got to be just exhausted and starving. John  At one point, I was just thinking that I can just live off of the water somehow, but I had to keep moving. I couldn t just stay with the water because, according to the map, I needed to go in a different direction to get back to my car. At one point, I found pine trees and, kind of, tried munching on some pine needles hoping that there may be some kind of nutrients or moisture. I did that for just a few minutes until I just couldn t take it anymore it’s not very pleasant. Scott  It’s probably not all that nutritious.  John Probably not.  Scott So how did you sleep on Wednesday night? Did you have to go back to the stream? John  I made my way back to the stream during the day and then I just moved on again, because I just had this determination to find my car. They say it sounds, kind of, a cliche even a blind man finds his way eventually, I guess. So, I thought, “No matter what, I just have to keep moving and this is going to work out eventually.” That night, I ended up not sleeping so well. Again, I moved so far away from that stream, so I didn t actually have anything to drink that night and the next morning. On Thursday morning, I actually woke up in the snow. I did get a few hours of sleep. When I woke up, there were probably, at least, a few inches of snow all over me. So, basically, I tried to live off of the snow for the rest of that morning, I guess I ate as much snow as I could handle before my mouth and hands went numb. I had to start climbing in a certain direction to try to think of where I needed to go. There wasn t snow on the ground at one point a lot of it had melted off by the afternoon. There were certain shaded areas where I was able to get some snow off some branches. Scott  I would be thinking that if you know what direction you were walking from when you went in like you were walking east or west or whatever couldn t you tell which way was East, West, North, or South by the position of the sun and just walk the opposite direction?  John  Yeah, I thought about that too. Well, I wasn t really paying attention, unfortunately that was definitely one of my faults and things that I did wrong about where I started. I knew that there was actually an airport out there. I was thinking that like, in direction to where the planes are coming to and from maybe I can look on the map and compare that airport to where my car was. So, I tried that as well, but it just kept leading me to walls, like huge ruts in the ground, trees that had fallen over, and all these things that kept blocking me. So, again, I went and climbed around it, but it never ended up really leading me to where I was looking to go. Scott  Sounds like an escape room on steroids… John  That’s a good way of looking at it. Scott  So, at that point, you ve had nothing to eat and you ve been getting by with insufficient sleep. Were you hallucinating at all? John  Yeah, absolutely. By the end of Thursday, especially, I started seeing I don t know just things moving and I was hearing things. I don t know if I was hearing what I thought were voices. I just started, kind of, making up scenarios in my head, thinking, or just hearing I don t know. It s hard to explain just hearing things that I hadn t heard in the last couple of days. Then, I saw helicopters flying by on Thursday and thought, “Hopefully, this is going to be it. I m going to try to get their attention.” So, I kept yelling. Actually, the last Wednesday and Thursday, I started yelling at the top of my lungs to get anybody s attention, if there was any way that anyone could hear me. When the helicopters were flying by, I waved my arms up in the air. I don t know if they were looking for me at that point, but I saw them flying by a couple of times. Of course, I had no success. Scott  Do you know at what point you were reported as missing? John  Actually, on Tuesday, I was going to be meeting up with some friends in Nevada apparently, that was how the missing person report got out. My friends, Zeb and Kearson, were looking to have me over on Tuesday. At some point either Tuesday or Wednesday they didn t hear from me which was very unusual because, usually, I make it a point to either keep in touch or show up. So, apparently, they contacted some people my friends and family and nobody had heard from me for a couple of days. They, kind of, looked over Facebook and eventually found out that I was heading towards Bryce Canyon.  Scott  So, they were able to figure out through social media that you were planning to go to Bryce Canyon. John  Yeah. I just happen to make a comment that I was hitting there. I was, kind of, updating some of the posts that I made along the way. I didn t actually mention that I was heading to Bryce Canyon directly until somebody just happened to invite me over to somewhere else in Utah and I told him that I wasn’t able to make it because I was heading to Bryce Canyon, and some people just happen to see that comment. Scott  Thursday… what was your mindset like from mid-day to late-day Thursday knowing that you might spend another night out in the wilderness? John  By Thursday, it was pretty extreme. Again, I was trying to keep hope alive. While I was walking, I got so exhausted. Since I had no water and no food, I could only make it so far without having long periods of rest. So, I actually passed out many times. I would be walking for, maybe, 20-45 minutes. Again, I just kept climbing and trying to get back to where I was previously. So, I would have these goals set in mind. I would see this rock or this tree or a landmark and tell myself, “Okay, you re gonna do this. If there s any chance you re getting out of here alive, you have to, at least, make it that far.” So, after I made it that far, I would find a place where I could just pass out. So, I ended up taking many naps, I guess, throughout the day. Like, I was just so exhausted that I couldn t stay awake. Each time that I felt myself drifting off, I actually thought this was it. I thought, “Well, I m gonna go out like this. This is really disappointing because I ve done some dumb shit over my life and I did not expect to go out just lost in the forest.” So, my mindset was not great for the most part, but I couldn t lose hope though I had to try. So, every couple of hours, I just woke up and kept at it. Scott  So you never actually got to the point of saying, “Alright, that s it. I m just gonna die here.” John  I just couldn t allow myself to do that. I kept falling down, especially on Thursday. I was so exhausted to the point that my legs were very shaky and tired even when I was on flat ground I had been walking almost non-stop for 3 days, so my legs were just so tired and shaky. I was having a very difficult time just moving at all. So, I would take a few steps and, sometimes, trip over nothing. There were bushes that bushwhacking me over and over again these bushes have these thorns on them and kept cutting me over and over again, and I would fall into those bushes. Even though I was going through all that, I was still trying very hard to be as optimistic as possible it was very difficult. Scott  That would be quite a mental challenge after several days. I mean, the physical exertion that you were going through is a lot even for someone fueled and hydrated and everything you didn t have the benefit of that. John  At one point, on Thursday, I actually got so desperate that, for the first time in my life, I actually tried to drink my armpits, but it didn t go over so well. I mean, all I had in me was just water and snow over the last couple of days. Desperate times call for desperate measures. I was thinking, “I m so far away from that water. This is all I have, man. It didn t taste great, but what are you going to do?” Scott  What are you gonna do? That s what Bear Grylls does, right? So, What was that like on Thursday night? John  On late Thursday, I ended up finding, kind of, like, a mud river. So, I was able to find my way back to clear water at some point on Thursday for just long enough to, kind of, keep going because I was looking at the map of where I was at and thinking, “Okay, well, here s this river. If I just go in this direction, I m just going to be able to run into a trailhead and, maybe, somebody.” So, I kept following the water and it eventually led to, kind of, a mud river. Eventually, that mud river led me to another, kind of, alcove, so I was able to actually find some shelter on Thursday night. I don t think it rained or snowed on Thursday, but it was very cold and windy, so I was pretty grateful that I was able to find some shelter. Scott  Did you even know what day it was? John  I wasn t really thinking about that. As I said, I was hallucinating and hearing things I wasn t clear-minded. There were days that weren t really important to me. I had not even thought of, like, what day it was. Scott  Friday, you woke up and… John  Friday was really weird. That night, I actually have a memory of a dream or, maybe, a hallucination I really don t know. I somehow had a memory or something of me being able to charge my phone somehow just long enough to call Search and Rescue and schedule the pickup time. That was going on in my mind somehow, I charged my phone just long enough to contact these guys and schedule a helicopter over here by the mud river at 9 AM. So, when I woke up, my head was such a mess. All I could think about was that I had scheduled a helicopter somehow and I needed to meet them over here by the mud river by 9 AM. I kept, like, waking up every so often, looking at the sun, and be like, “Okay. Well, it s not quite 9 o clock yet, but I think I have enough time to get over there.” Probably, like, an hour or two into walking, I realized that I just made up this whole scenario. I finally had, I guess, a moment of clarity of “They re not coming to get me and I m doomed. I m gonna die out here.” Friday was when this really hit. Scott  Because your phone was long dead by then, right? John   Yeah. The funny thing is it actually died on Tuesday morning. Again, I don t know if I am just remembering this wrong or what, but I had a memory of actually trying to get a hold of my friends whom I was supposed to be meeting up with on Tuesday, and letting them know that I m not able to make it because I m lost, and that I ll check my phone after I got it charged the day I get rescued, and that message never went through. So I was thinking that either my phone died as I was texting them or, again, I just made the whole thing up I really don t know. But yeah, my phone was definitely long dead by Friday. Scott  Take us to the time when you were actually found and you came into human contact.  John  I kept following that mud River, probably, I guess, for a couple of hours after I woke up. I thought that, maybe, it was another auditory hallucination I heard voices and somebody yelling. I kind of tried to follow the voices the best I could. Eventually, I saw a couple of dogs and 3 men on horses. I waved and,  kind of, yelled at them to get their attention. First, all I did was just ask, “How the hell do I get out of here? I ve been here since Monday and I can t figure out where the hell I m at.” So, they said, “Well, if you just keep following this direction, eventually you re gonna hit a trailhead.” I don t remember all of what was spoken but, eventually I, kind of, let them know that I felt like dying and anything would be greatly appreciated. So, the kid automatically reached into a pouch and grabbed me a Powerade. His father said, “Hey, let s go ahead and just get you on this horse. I ll take you to the trailhead. We ll come back to get you when we re done here in a few hours, and then we ll take you to your car.” So, the father jumped off his horse, got me on it, tells his father and his son, “I m going to go ahead and take him over to the car, and then I ll meet up with you guys.” On the way, he explained that they go there for hunting every year it s a family thing and they just happen to be over here. He said that they ve never been down as far before or they just normally don t go down as far it’s either one of the two. So, it was just, I guess, pure dumb luck that they happen to be there when I was there.  Scott They literally saved your life! John Oh, yeah. Where I was at, I don t know if search and rescue would have ended up finding me at least, not for a while. So, they got me to the trailhead. It s pretty hot Friday afternoon. I was able to find one of those signs that, kind of, explains the park a little bit and the trailhead that shows you where you re at. So, on the pavement, I just, kind of, laid there. The man I can t remember his name, unfortunately, but he gave me a first name was very kind and he gave me a protein shake, protein bar, another Powerade, a bottle of water they actually hooked me up pretty good and said, “There are other people here. If they get back before we do, just let them know what s going on and they ll definitely be happy to take you back to your car.” I actually waited around, I guess, for possibly a couple of hours. By that point, I was obviously pretty miserable. They actually gave me a chocolate bar and also a little KitKat bar, but I couldn t even taste it because my mouth was so dry that I couldn t taste anything even with the Powerade and the water it was not pleasant at all. So, I consumed the liquids and tried to ration them the best I could.  Scott  At least the Powerade would have electrolytes in it, so it would be rehydrating you to some degree, right? John  It was amazing. It was the most satisfying thing I could think of at that time. Scott   It must have been a pretty emotional moment, I would imagine, to realize, “Okay, I m not going to die here.” John  When I first saw those guys, that was the first human contact I had in almost five days. I had this overwhelming sense of, like, “I might actually be okay. I might actually survive. There are humans.” And yeah, I was very relieved just to even see somebody. Scott  So after waiting he brought you back there who did you see next? John  So after a couple of hours just, kind of, baking in the sun because there really wasn t much shade, I think a dune buggy actually pulled up and I heard a couple of voices. I was laying down trying to just maintain I don t know. I was trying to get up very slowly because, again, my legs were really not working at all at that point. So, I slowly got up and, kind of, waved those guys down. As soon as they saw me, I heard one of them saying to the other, like, “Oh, wow. I m glad that they were wrong.” I never asked them exactly what that meant, but I just kind of assumed that they didn t expect anybody or me to be far away over there, at least, at this trailhead. It turned out that they were actually Garfield County Search and Rescue. Again, I wish I had their names because they were awesome and very nice people. They handed me a couple of extra bottles of water and said, “Yeah, we re actually out here looking for you.” They immediately took me to an ambulance that was waiting, maybe, 15 miles away or something like that. Then, the ambulance took me to the hospital. Scott  If they were out looking for you who had been gone for several days, they probably weren t expecting to find somebody still alive. John  I think there was a comment that was actually similar to that. They re like, “Well, it s not often for somebody to be out here for 4-5 days and still live.” Cody Sherriffs My name is Cody sheriffs and I m a local Garfield County Search and Rescue member, as well as a Garfield County First Responder, Bryce Canyon, Utah. What I want to talk about today is what happened that Thursday, May 3, 2019, after our team was called out to search for an individual who had been missing since April 29, 2019 approximately four days after hiking into Bryce Canyon s Swamp Canyon Trail. So, at around 11:30 AM, we were dispatched to a male who had hiked down the Swamp Canyon Trail in Bryce Canyon on April 29 and never made it back to his truck. Immediately, our thoughts were, “This is going to be a body recovered due to the weather conditions throughout the 4 nights, which included heavy rain, snow, along with temperatures that dipped into the mid-20s at night.” It s hard to believe that anyone that spent a number of nights in those conditions without the proper gear could survive, but John met those odds. So, knowing that this could be a body to recover still does not limit the resources that our incident commander put in place from a team that started hiking down the Swamp Canyon Trail another team member and myself were driving our search and rescue Wildcat side-by-side from the bottom of the canyon up towards Swamp Canyon Trail and having a state helicopter pick up one of our incident commanders to survey from the sky. We do not limit our available resources when it comes to rescues no matter what the circumstances are.  So, my partner and I started to search for John from a town called Cannonville, which is 12 miles away from Bryce Canyon. After about an hour into our search, my partner and I came up to the Sheep Creek Trailhead which, for some reason, we both had a gut feeling that we needed to stop and make contact with our incident commander just to let them know how far we ve made it, what our location was, and that we had made no contact with our lost person, which is normal protocol. When we stopped, our radio service wasn t all that great due to the remote location that we were at. The signal was probably as bad as it can get real choppy. So, after about a minute of trying, we both, kind of, heard a voice. As we turned around, a gentleman that had long hair, wearing a light sweater in shorts, appeared out of the bushes. At that point, I asked that individual what his name was, and he replied, “My name is John.” I then asked, “John, where did you come from?” He actually pointed up towards the Swamp Canyon Trail at the top of Bryce Canyon and said that he was picked up by some guys on horses and dropped off at the location where he was currently at. At that point, I turned, looked at my partner, and he said “I think we found our guy” which, kind of, blew us away due to the fact that we didn t expect John to be alive due to the conditions that he was left in for the 4 days.  At that point, we rendered John first aid, provided him with water, and performed a quick assessment of John s health, which showed extreme exhaustion and dehydration. His legs were also torn up pretty good from the bushes and anything else that he had walked through or fell down or slid off of. We did our best to contact our incident command with no luck due to the location and the bad radio signal that we were getting. Our dispatch center was able to make up our message stating that we had found our missing guy. At that point, we decided that we needed to get John back to the main road for better service to contact our local ambulance service in Tropic, Utah to meet us in Cannon Ville so that they could further help John and transport him to the Garfield Memorial Hospital, which is about 45-60 minutes away. So, if it was not for that gut feeling that my partner and I had, or the protocols that we have in place to make contact with our incident command to update them, we would have driven right past John we would have never heard him due to the side-by-side noise levels drowning out everything else and we would, possibly, not have located John for another few hours, if at all. So, whether it was luck the right place at the right time John was found alive. The Garfield County Search and Rescue team and other involved agencies were able to add another very successful rescue to the books. Scott  So, from there, you went to the hospital… John  Yeah. Once I saw those guys in that dune buggy, the reality still hadn t quite set in like, I had a sense of relief. Once I actually got into the ambulance, one of the men who were in there from the search and rescue handed me a sandwich. He was like, “I got sandwiches, and I got an extra one for you.” He dressed it all up for me broke out little packets of mayonnaise and mustard. On man, just the taste of real food was almost enough to just, kind of, make me want to cry it was just amazing. Everybody was being, of course, so kind. I was able to get, maybe, like, a quarter of that sandwich down, but it was the best quarter of a sandwich that I ve ever had. Scott  What stopped you after the quarter?  John  I was having a really hard time eating. I was very weak and, again, my mouth was so dry that, every time I take a bite, I have to wash it down with, like, half a bottle of water. But it didn t take me too much longer once I got into the hospital to regain my appetite. Scott  When you were examined at the hospital, what kind of condition were you in? John  Officially, they just put me down as very dehydrated. They didn t really address the superficial wounds that I had, which was fine because those were just all minor cuts. I had been bushwhacked so many times that my whole left calf I took pictures of it looked like it was, like, just ripped away. The whole left side of my left calf and part of my right leg were just ripped away, but other than that, I was very dehydrated. Once I was able to get a little bit of rest that night, when I tried to stand up the next day, I would have this excruciating pain in my legs from just standing up. So, it would, kind of, start with the ankle and work its way up all the way up to, like, the knee and it felt like I was just being stabbed by, like, 1,000 little knives in both of my legs I think it was just from the muscles being overused so much over the last 5 days. Scott   Yeah, everything was depleted there. John  Yeah, I have nothing left in me. Scott   How long were you in the hospital? John  From Friday afternoon to, kind of, late Saturday afternoon, so just about 30 hours roughly. Scott  From there, where did they take you back to your car? Were you able to drive home or drive away somewhere? What did you do after that? John  Luckily, my sister actually came from Idaho I think she and her friend were heading down to Salt Lake or deciding whether to go to Salt Lake or somewhere else. When they heard that I was in the hospital, they actually came down on Friday and visited me in the hospital. They took my keys, went to pick up my car for me, and drove it to the hospital. So, that was very nice very appreciated. Scott  That s a good sister! John  Yeah, it was pretty cool. Scott  That s good. Boy, what a crazy adventure! I m sure you realize how close you were to not making it. John  Yeah. My sister and my friend came from Salt Lake. They came to visit me and they were, kind of, like, “When you turn your phone on, be prepared” because once my friends, kind of, started getting the word that I was missing apparently, it hit social media, local radio, and internet, and it escalated from there I got bombarded with messages. It was really nuts. Yeah, it was overwhelming and definitely life-changing. Scott  It s, kind of, reassuring to know that there are that many people that care about you. John   I ve questioned that for a little while for no good reason other than, I guess, insecurities, self-loathing, and depression. So, I definitely have no reason to really doubt that people care about me any longer. Scott  Have you been in touch with your rescuers at all since then? John   Unfortunately, no. I had no idea how to contact those guys, but I would love to, at least, personally, thank the hunters and the Search and Rescue.  Scott  Yeah, they all played an important part… John  Very much. Scott  I know it has only been, like, a month since this happened, but have you gone hiking again since then? Or would you want to go hiking again? John  I have, actually. In fact, the first real and good hike was yesterday. As a matter of fact, I went up to Boise where there s, kind of, a popular hiking place called Table Rock, which is a good four-mile hike. It was very good for me to get out, stretch, and kind of get back to what I wanted to do. It was a little bump in the road, but that is not going to stop me from following what I want to do. Scott  That s good. I assume that when you went out on that one, you had a fully-charged phone and, at least, a bottle of water. John  Yeah. Actually, since then, good friends have given me, like, a survival pack and a personal locator beacon because they don t want me to get lost again. So, I m fully prepared.  Scott  That s great. What do you think is the biggest lesson you ve learned from this experience? John  Just two things… 1) Tell people where you re going is definitely a very important part. 2) Another thing that I ve been hearing over and over again that I definitely agree with is, no matter what, if you re just gonna go out on a hike somewhere, at the very least, bring some of the basics a bottle of water, a little snack, and maybe a compass, at the very least. Scott  Yeah, a compass would have been pretty handy for this one, right?  John Yeah, it really would have. Scott John, that’s quite a story and experience I m sure it’s not one that you d want to go through again. John  No, man. I m good. I ve led a pretty interesting life and I think that if this is going to be the most interesting thing that happened to me, I m okay with that. It was definitely a lesson learned and, maybe, it was good for me in a way. It’s, kind of, an expensive lesson to learn but, overall, it s been positive since I ve been back. Scott  All part of life experience.  John Absolutely.  Scott I wasn’t able to get in touch with John for an update – so John, if you’re listening to this, get in touch with me and let me know how you’re doing. And here’s a question for you, dear listener – have you ever been really lost? Like, so lost you were concerned for your own safety? If so, we’d love to hear you talk about that in a Listener Story.  This week in the Facebook group we asked the question, “What’s your story about getting a weird phone call?”. And this can be on your cell phone, or way back in the days of land line phones. I know I got some weird calls – have you? Come on over and tell us about it – WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And remember, you can sign up to support the podcast by going to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS, or on an iPhone just click on Try Free – you’ll get every episode ad-free, plus there’s more than 50 bonus episodes that are exclusive to supporters. And here we are once again, about to hear this week’s Listener Story. If you have an interesting personal story – and you know you do – just record it on your phone. It should be somewhere around 5-10 minutes. Then just email it to me – [email protected]. This listener talks about, as a young person, doing something against her better judgment. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener Story) My listener story takes place around 1986-1987. I graduated high school in 1986 and, later that fall, went on to start my first year of college in Charlotte, North Carolina. Well, as it turns out, college was not for me at the time, so I dropped out. Of course, I didn t tell my mother I dropped out she was three hours away so I would pretend that I was still going to class, but what I was really doing was working. I had gotten a job at Hardee s, which is a fast food restaurant, and then I got a second job at Pizza Inn.  One day, I had to work both jobs. I was leaving Pizza Inn to walk to Hardee s, and it wasn t a short walk but, over the years, I can t remember exactly the mileage, but it was definitely more than a mile, but less than 10. It was a hot day and I was walking and I was tired, and people kept pulling over, asking me if I wanted a ride, and I was like, “No, thank you. I m good.” Kept pulling over just– I mean, car after car pulled over and asked me if I wanted a ride, and I kept saying no, but eventually I was just so hot and tired. I said to myself, “The next person who pulls over, I m going to go ahead and get into the car.” So, sure enough, a few minutes later, a man pulled over in his car, he said, “Hey, you want a ride?” And I m like, “Yes, thank you. Thank you so much. Yes sir.”  I get into the car and we re not driving a good minute, and he says, “You want to make some extra money?” I stiffened and I m like, “Excuse me?” He said, “You want to make some extra money?” And I m shaking my head and I m saying, “Oh no sir. No sir.” And he s like, “Oh, you don t do that kind of stuff?” I was like, “No sir. No sir.” So he pulled the car over to the side of the road and let me out of the car.  To this day, that story rattles me because I watch a lot of crime TV, now I listen to a lot of crime podcasts, so I know that story could have gone many different ways, bad ways. So I m just grateful that this man didn t try to force himself. He didn t take me somewhere. He just let me out of his car and I m grateful. To this day. I have never gotten into another stranger s car. Although college wasn t for me at the time, I did go on to receive two associates, a bachelor s and a master s. So college became for me eventually, and I also was able to have a successful 24-year career in the Air Force. I m grateful I don t take those things for granted, and I realize that they could ve gone totally rough. Thanks for listening.

There’s a funny thing about being an American. I’ve seen this with some people I know, as well as some of the guests here on the podcast. Living in the United States, it’s easy to have the mindset that the way we do things is the way the rest of the world does things. Unless you travel to other countries regularly, and get exposed to other cultures, that’s kind of the default thought for a lot of people. An example of this is tipping. Here in the US, we tip service workers. In fact, I think the tipping culture has gotten way out of hand, but that’s a different story. But in other places around the world, they don’t expect a tip for good service. In fact, offering extra money for a job well done can be considered kind of an insult or even condescending. My conversation today is with Blake. He’s a US citizen, so he was accustomed to the American way of thinking about a lot of things. Like, the concept that marijuana is not serious drug. And the idea of being innocent until proven guilty. But while he was in South Korea, he discovered that they think very differently about these things. Blake in Korea Blake at an abandoned greyhound race track in Vermont (photo credit: Julie Novak) Blake Blake on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/allamericanruins/ abandoned: The All-American Ruins podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/abandoned-the-all-american-ruins-podcast/id1618595497 Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/252 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Today’s episode comes with a content warning for discussion of suicide. There’s a funny thing about being an American. I’ve seen this with some people I know, as well as some of the guests here on the podcast. Living in the United States, it’s easy to have the mindset that the way we do things is the way the rest of the world does things. Unless you travel to other countries regularly, and get exposed to other cultures, that’s kind of the default thought for a lot of people. An example of this is tipping. Here in the US, we tip service workers. In fact, I think the tipping culture has gotten way out of hand, but that’s a different story. But in other places around the world, they don’t expect a tip for good service. In fact, offering extra money for a job well done can be considered kind of an insult or even condescending. My conversation today is with Blake. He’s a US citizen, so he was accustomed to the American way of thinking about a lot of things. Like, the concept that marijuana is not serious drug. And the idea of being innocent until proven guilty. But while he was in South Korea, he discovered that they think very differently about these things. Scott You re an American. Why were you living in South Korea? Blake It s a great question. I went to Emerson College for musical theater and, towards the end of my tenure there, I realized that I wasn t quite ready to move to New York City. I have sort of a multi-layered skillset that also includes music and songwriting and journalism. I had been bitten by the travel bug when I was 16 and was really interested in going to travel the world a little bit before I moved to New York to try acting. Four months before I graduated, I was working at Blue Man Group in Boston. My coworker, Marlin, she said, “Hey, I have this strange potential job opportunity in South Korea and wondered if you d be interested in auditioning for this ESL Children s Theater Company.” I thought that s kind of perfect because I can still do theater in a way and have the opportunity to travel places that I never would ve gone otherwise. What was really wonderful about that job is I had a month of paid vacation and I had free health insurance and I didn t pay for housing, so it was kind of a perfect first job out of college. So we auditioned and both got in and suddenly I was in South Korea working at what s called Paju English Village, which is now defunct, but it s basically a government-run theme park where Korean kids practice their English in these fake “western towns”. So I was flown over to South Korea to develop children s musicals for the Korean government. That was my first job out of college, and that s how I wound up there, and it was the best job I ever had. Truly, such a wonderful, freeing moment in my life where I really got the opportunity to learn what life in the real world was like in an extreme situation Scott And still doing what you love. Blake And still doing what I love. Another benefit to all of this is I had been in a relationship in college with a gorgeous specimen named Nicholas John Casey, and young love is very intense, and I was basically fresh out of the closet. So that first relationship really meant a lot to me and was very important and I think it s one of those things that, when you re young, everything is very heightened and everything feels very important. So when we broke up at the end of college, it was an opportunity for me to really eject myself from that situation because it wasn t necessarily a good pairing at the time. We both suffered from mental health issues and it just wasn t a good match, but we remained really good friends, and that s important context for this story because it was truly the other reason I wound up going to Korea to kind of get myself away from that situation physically. Scott And how old were you at the time when you went to South Korea? Blake I graduated when I was 22. I turned 23 in October of 2010 after I had been there for a few months. So yeah, 22 to 23. Scott So you hadn t been there very long, but were you kind of– obviously, being in a completely foreign country, were you kind of homesick for “American things” like– what did you miss the most? Blake Chipotle and Gushers were my two big missings. I m a simple gal from a suburban small town in Colorado, and never really realized how much I appreciated the corporate musings. Those were the kinds of things that I missed, those two in particular stick out to me, but I was so excited to be in a new place and develop a new way of seeing the world that it was actually more challenging to come back to the United States after being away for that year and readjusting to American life again, where I didn t have free health insurance and people didn t really follow the rules on the New York City subway the way that they do on the Seoul Metro, and it took me a lot longer, I think, to readjust to the American in me after coming back. Scott Okay. Well this all started on a Wednesday. Tell us what happened. Blake One of the many benefits of having so many lovely family and friends back in the States at this time is that people would send me care packages. After I got there, Nick and I stayed very much in touch and we talked often on Facebook Messenger. Towards Christmas time, he messaged me on Facebook to let me know that he had sent me a care package with what he said, “All of your favorites inside” I was so excited and I said, “Oh my gosh. Tell me what s in it.” And he said, “Nope, it s a surprise. It s just all of your favorite things.” So, I was so thrilled because I knew this package was coming. It wound up showing up about two weeks after Christmas, and I get a notification from the village that this package has arrived for me. What s really interesting about this whole story is– just also for context, I m an alcoholic in recovery and, at the time, I was kind of at the beginning of my rock bottom. For an alcoholic or an addict, getting to your rock bottom can often take years and years. For me, it took about three and I would say it really started when I was in South Korea. I had gotten drunk the night before. I went to go get the package and I wandered into the large building which looked like a giant city hall building to see if I could grab the package, having no clue what was about to go down. It always is amazing to me to think back to that moment and have such gratitude that there weren t security cameras because it would ve made it look like I knew something was wrong and that something was about to happen, which I did not. Luckily, I had the Facebook conversation with Nick to back that up. Scott Let me just ask you. This building– was it something like what we would think of like a post office? Blake The post office was inside of this– I mean it looked like a giant city hall building and, inside that building towards the back, right there was this office that was the “post office”. Scott Okay. So that s where your package was. Blake Yeah. Whenever we got a package, we had to sign for it in this office. It s the middle of January, 2011, and I walk into this post office to sign for this package. As I m signing for the package, the woman who worked at the counter who I had gotten very friendly with and we had gotten to know each other, she gave me this look as she handed me the package that felt off to me. As the package was landing in my hands, I suddenly had this moment where I thought, “Oh my God, I think Nick sent me drugs.” The reason that thought entered my head is because, before I had moved to South Korea, I had read up quite a bit about what the situation with drugs was in South Korea and marijuana is treated as a very serious narcotic. They see it as more dangerous than some of the club drugs that you might think of when you think of really serious drugs, and I don t really know the reason that s true. Again, this is 2011, things may have changed. At the time, Korea was in the beginning phases of really becoming a world cultural superpower. This is right before Gangnam Style hit the charts and K-pop got big. So I was really on the cutting edge of Korean culture, if I do say so myself. I think after the Korean conflict and after the country had to start over again, they very quickly developed this culture of no laziness. So suicide rates are extremely high in South Korea because people are overworked. I think marijuana is known as the lazy drug, so I think that s why it s treated as such. But regardless, I knew how serious drugs were and vowed that I wouldn t even touch anything while I was there, because I was still active at the time. But as she handed me this package, this thought dropped in my head and I could feel my stomach drop out. I walked out of the post office. As I was walking towards the doors of this city hall building, two men truly out of nowhere came behind these pillars and stopped me. One of the two men said, “Are you Blake Pfeil?” I said yes, and I knew instantly what was about to happen even though I didn t know the full-fledge situation. He flashed his badge and told me he was with the National Korean Police Agency, and he took the package out of my hands and escorted me outside. This dark minivan pulled up and the door opened, and there were several officers inside. I was asked to get into the car, and we sat there in silence as I waited for my boss, Mickey, to come out of the main office, get in the front seat of the car, and he turned around and he said. Do you know what s in this package? And I said, “I don t, Mickey.” And he said, “Are you sure?” I said, “I m positive.” Scott Obviously, you didn t want to mention the hunch that you had when you were handed the package. Blake Of course. No way. Because it was twofold. One, the package has drugs in it, but two, it is from an ex-boyfriend. My mind was spinning out of control with all of these robust what-if situations that really scared me because homosexuality in South Korea at the time again, this might have changed was treated as if it didn t even exist, almost worse than the hate I think a lot of people in other countries receive as a queer person there. It s almost like indifference. They just pretend it doesn t exist. So I had reason to be concerned for two very specific reasons. Mickey said, “Did you know that this package has cookies in it that are laced with marijuana?” I hadn t even opened it yet, and I said, “No, I did not know that.” Scott Of course, you couldn t know what was in it. You had not yet opened it. How did they know what was in it? Blake The National Korean police being the strict drug enforcers that they are, any package that comes into the country, they open it and they test it. They sniff it with dogs, and this package was no different. So they had actually opened the package. What s interesting is, as I handed the package over to one of the officers, I could see that it had been sort of jimmy-rigged, taped in a different way than the original. I could see there were two different types of tape on the box, and I had no idea that was the case that, in Korea, they open all of any package that comes in the country. So that s how they found out and that s how I found out. We all sort of found out. They knew before I did. So we re sitting in this black van and I have no idea what s next, and Mickey was there to translate for everything. He said, “Okay, well they need to search your apartment.” I said, “That s totally fine. I had nothing to hide.” So we drove this black van up through the streets of Paju English Village and we got to my apartment. I think this was the moment where the story really took a turn because, up until that point, I had it in my head that this was going to be like a brokedown palace situation and that I was going to be thrown in prison for 50 years and it was going to be like a hole to do. As I entered the apartment, I realized that this flock of 6 National Korean police was not behind me. I turned around and they were all standing on the precipice of my apartment and I said, “Mickey, are they going to come in?” And he said, “Well, they want to know if they should take their shoes off.” That always struck me because I was raised in a country where, if police search your home, there s no politeness to it, there s no manners to it. We come in, we ram our way in, we tear everything apart, and we don t even try to fix it. These men politely removed their shoes, proceeded to search my apartment, ceiling tiles, the whole– I mean, they really went through it all, but they put it all back together at the end. When they didn t find anything, they were all talking in Korean, of course, the whole time to Mickey, and he was responding back and forth and back and forth. Finally, he said, “Okay, well, they need to take you down to the police station because they have a lot more questions.” And the jurisdiction that they had for me, being a resident alien, was such that they could hold me for up to three days without any question. That was their jurisdiction. I didn t know any of this at the time because I hadn t planned on getting arrested in South Korea. So they officially arrested me and they took me down to the van and, right before I left, I said to Mickey, “Can you ask them if I can grab a granola bar? Because I hadn t eaten that morning and I was hungover.” He asked them, and they responded and he said to me, “Oh no, they re going to take you for an early lunch.” Again, just the disbelief of how this was all unfolding in real time really kind of caught me off guard because I kept expecting the worst and my experience was just completely different than that. So we got into the car. We start driving down to what eventually is Incheon, which is where the National Korean Police headquarters is. As we were about to get on the Jayu-ro, which is the Freedom Highway, we pulled off at this restaurant and I went into this restaurant with these six national Korean police officers, and we proceeded to eat an entire Galbi meal in silence. Again, I couldn t figure out what was going on and I was asking myself, “Are they trying to get me to relax so they can get more information out of me? What is the tactic here?” Scott Right. Like an interrogator trying to establish rapport so that you kind of let your guard down and spill the whole story. Blake Yeah, exactly. And nobody spoke English, as far as I knew, so no words were said at that meal. We all ate in silence. Scott What was the total time you expected to be on this trip? Blake I didn t know. I knew that Incheon was sort of like a sister city to Seoul because it is where the national airport is, but it was about 90 minutes from where I was, so not too far away, but far enough to be really concerning. Scott Yeah. An hour and a half in on this drive, in addition to the time spent at the nice lunch, but you had some time to really think. What was your mental state as you were traveling? Blake Well, I couldn t stop thinking about my mom and trying to sort out in my head how I was going to go about this because I had no idea what to expect. I had absolutely no idea what they already knew, what they were going to figure out, how they were going to figure that out. All I knew is that I had this truth that was extremely true and if I told that truth that this was a care package that I had no information about from an ex-boyfriend, I could get in trouble anyway just for being a gay person in South Korea. It s not like it was illegal, but the way that they thought of it was scary. So, I was thinking about all kinds of things. Again, I would revert back to a brokedown palace scenario in my head. I think in those kinds of moments where the suspension of disbelief is actually the only thing that s cradling you through one point to another. That passageway is just like a big gray area. It was bleak, though. Scott Did you have any idea of the penalty if they decided you were guilty? Blake Not yet. I found out later when I was introduced to my translator, who wound up walking me through everything. But when we got to Incheon, it was a very gray and heavily guarded building as it would be, and my stomach dropped. Then, once I got inside and they did all the processing, I was introduced to my translator, Mr. Park, who became my best friend very quickly. Again, I couldn t fully trust him up until leaving because I had no idea how they went about this kind of situation. When we shook hands, I noticed something about him, and it was very clear to me that he was a closeted gay man, and I thought to myself, “Well, that s a big plus for me because we already are going to have a rapport and that s great.” How it went down is they would bring me into a room, they would interrogate me for a couple hours, send me back, I would sleep, they would bring me back, I would be sent back to my room, I would sleep, et cetera, et cetera. But before I started that process, I was put into this giant cell with a group of men, and one of the men came up and sat down next to me and sort of put his arm around me. I mean, I thought, “This is how I get shivved. I m done for.” This is when I really learned that marijuana was treated the way that it s treated in that country because he started sort of miming to me this one man in this larger cell and what he was trying to get at was, “Why are you here?” He was miming punching, like, “Did you get in a fight? Did you get drunk?” I mimed smoking a pipe and his face went white and he immediately removed himself and went to the opposite corner of the room and stopped talking to me. So it was in that moment that I was aware and later reflected on, “Oh, this is really concerning for this population of people. They really find this drug to be the worst thing.” Because of that incident, they wound up moving me to a private cell, I think, especially because I was a white American in a Korean country. Before the interrogation began, Mr. Park said something to me that kind of was, I guess, the linchpin for the whole situation. He said, “Just tell the truth. They re going to know if you lie.” I took a urine drug test. It was completely clean, and thus began this interrogation. The first interrogation that first day was all focused on the drugs. It was about four hours total, and they asked me all sorts of questions. Did I know marijuana was in the package? Did I pay for the marijuana? Why did Nick send it? Have I ever used marijuana in Korea before? Scott Was it the same interrogator the whole time? Blake There was Mr. Park who was my translator, and then there was Mr. Kim, who was the lead interrogator, a very stately man who looks like any really attractive South Korean daddy, I would say is the best way to describe it. Scott I m sorry, but I have no picture of that in my head, but that s okay. Blake That s okay. Just google the father from Parasite and it ll give you a better idea. He was a very handsome man. They would also not just ask questions. Sometimes, they would just flat out accuse me and they would say, “I think you knew the marijuana was coming.” And I would respond, “I didn t know the marijuana was coming.” After four hours of this first interrogation, they wound up ordering me Chinese takeout. Again, I sat there and ate dinner in silence with these investigators. I was slowly but surely really disappearing from my body because I think I was really going into shock and dissociation because it was still completely unclear to me how this was going to go down. Scott I m wondering if you were concerned– you re clearly a well-spoken person. You choose your words carefully. Did you have concern that perhaps Mr. Park wasn t translating with the exact meaning that you wanted to get across? Blake I certainly did. And, oftentimes, even reflecting on this story, 15 years later, I still wonder were there any discrepancies between what he was translating and what I was saying to them and what information was actually conveyed to them. I still don t know to this day Scott Because it seems like it would be so easy– even saying things like, “I know what s in the box or I knew what s in the box” just the tense of a word can kind of indicate guilt. Blake Yeah. I mean, Mr. Park– I think this is where the luck really came in. Had it been somebody else, I don t know. But I do think that he recognized me and I recognized him. This is a thing that queer people often experience in real life where there s just sort of a “you know”. Scott I ve heard about this and I ve always kind of wondered how that happens. It s interesting. Blake It s a vibration. It s a signal. There s really no way to describe it, but you just know the person. I just knew about this guy and so I had to trust. The whole time, anytime I ran up against, “Is he translating this correctly?”, I had to trust that he was. There was no other alternative. The alternative would ve led to me really starting to stumble over my thoughts and my feelings, and I had to keep as clear a head as possible throughout all of this because there was no way I was going down without a fight. But that first day of questioning, it was all about the drugs. At the conclusion, they asked me– they didn t ask me, they said, “We need all of the passwords to your social media accounts.” At the time, I was on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and I gave them all the passwords to those and my email account and my work email account, and had no idea what they were going to do with those passwords, but assumed that they were going to go in and find the conversation that I had with Nick that I told them about, where it was very clear that I did not know what was going on. They took hair samples. I had all my personal items removed. They took me to the cell. It had heated floors, there were blankets, there was water. It was very, I don t want to say nice, but it was certainly not what you think of when you think of Korean prison. This also was in prison. It was a jail cell, but I didn t sleep that night. My mind was in a constant obsessive loop of what is going to happen. I think, that night, I did ask myself over and over again, “What if something that I said was mistranslated”? Scott Were you alone in the cell overnight? Blake I was alone in the cell overnight. They had originally planned to put me in a cell with other people, and then they moved me because they didn t want any trouble. Over the course of that, leading up to the interrogation, they laid the ground rules for me, essentially, and told me that they had the jurisdiction to keep me for 72 hours, that I was going to be allowed to visit with the embassy the following morning, just sort of how the whole legal system worked. What s really key to note here is that, in the United States, we have this famous phrase “innocent until proven guilty”. It is flipped in South Korea. They assume you are guilty until you prove that you re innocent. So it s completely the other way around. I “woke up the following morning” not really and I was taken to a different room where I met with the United States Embassy in Korea. Scott Alright, so they brought you by van back to the main building. Is that right? Blake To the main building. I was brought into this room. I was sitting in the room and the embassy walked in. It was this man named Kevin. He sat down and I had this assumption that this was going to be my reassuring moment where everything was going to feel better. I was going to be with another American. They were going to tell me everything was going to be okay. Instead, he sort of flopped down on his chair and, in a very smarmy way, might I add, he says, “We re not really here to give you legal advice, not really here to tell you that everything is going to be cool. You could face an indefinite prison sentence. You could face deportation. We re just kind of here to walk you through what the process is as far as their legal system is concerned.” I was sort of dumbfounded by the attitude because I really had thought to myself, “This is going to be the moment where I can have some relief.” Instead, it only increased my anxiety. Scott They re supposed to be the heroes. Blake They re supposed to be our advocates. That s their job. Scott Yeah. Did you get the impression that they assumed also that you were guilty? Like, “Hey, this guy did something stupid. Sorry, you re on your own.” Blake I actually seemed to remember him saying something along the lines of, “We can t align ourselves with whether or not you re guilty or innocent.” I don t think that he said it outright, but he’s smarm was enough to lead me to believe, oh, they actually don t give a shit about me. So when he said what he said, I said, “Well, if that s the only reason you re here, I guess you can go because they ve already explained everything to me, quite frankly, better than you just did.” And he said, “Okay. Do you want us to call anybody?” That was the moment where I was like, “What is happening right now? How have they not already contacted my out-of-country emergency contacts? This is crazy.” And I said, “Yeah, if you could contact my parents, that would be awesome.” I wound up finding out later that, when they called both of my parents, it was like 3 o clock in the morning in the States, and they left a voicemail on my mom s phone. All they said was, “Hello, Ms. Ferguson, this is the Korean embassy and Seoul. We re calling about your son. We need you to call us back.” As a parent, I cannot fathom what my mother went through for the next 24 hours at that point. She said it was the most scared that she has ever been because she couldn t– when she called back, the embassy was closed because it was nighttime there and she couldn t get answers. I don t actually recall how she wound up figuring out what was going on, but she did, and she knew that I had been taken. So they left and, at that point, I thought, “Okay, my life is completely over.” Well, we went back into interrogation mode and I was expecting that it was going to be the exact same situation where they were going to keep asking me questions or making statements about “You knew.” But they had gone through my social media and they had clearly found that conversation with Nick on Facebook messenger because, that second day of questioning, everything that I had anticipated was no longer true and all of the questions wound up surrounding my relationship with Nick because if you went back far enough in that Facebook conversation, it was very easy to find out that we had at one point been a couple and within 10 minutes of that second day of interrogation, I am convinced to this day that they knew that I was innocent. They had the proof that I proved my innocence after being guilty, and they were excessively curious about getting to hang out with a gay guy because that s not something that they realize they re ever doing. Scott And they could do it under the pretense of work. Blake That s exactly right. The questions had nothing to do with the case. More so, they would ask me questions like– this is a real question. I was asked, “Well, who is man? And who is woman?” and all of the questions surrounded this. In fact, as the interrogation went on, more and more investigators came into the room and sort of huddled around me answering all of these questions about my relationship with this man and what homosexuality was like in the United States. Scott Did you feel some kind of a medical oddity or something that they were just probing? Blake I think all I felt was gratitude because there was no sense of danger. At first, it was concerning, but I started to realize that they were just extremely curious because they had no information. They had never been exposed to something like that before. Of course, Mr. Park is sitting there this whole time translating everything. They wrap up this second interrogation. It s probably another 4 to 6 hours, I can t quite remember, but it was the late afternoon when that interrogation ended. I said to Mr. Park, “I need to go use the bathroom.” He said okay, signaled to two of the police officers. The three of them escorted me down to the bathroom. As we were walking down this hallway, I could see that Mr. Park was really deep in thought, and he said to me, “I have never seen a case like this. I think they re going to let you go.” It was in that moment where I was like, “I think he s right. I think they re going to let me go.” He later told me when he was walking me out that he had been working as a translator in this particular unit at the National Korean Police for over a decade at that point, and he had never once seen somebody acquitted. Scott Wow. Because it s difficult to prove your innocence sometimes Blake If you don t have hard proof, there s no way that they can expect– you have to have hard evidence. So we go back into the room and sitting on the desk is the Tupperware container of these marijuana cookies. Keep in mind, Mr. Kim, the lead investigator, the whole time, he has only spoken in Korean and he s sort of looking out of his window over the city of Incheon, very cinematic. He turned as we walked in, and he looked at me and then he looked at the Tupperware and then he looked back at me and he said, “Do you want one?” in plain English. It was this moment of, like, “These motherf-ers. They sneaky little bitches.” And brilliant to volley that way because it does create a sense of trust between the translator and the interrogated. Just unbelievable. I could tell this guy had a sense of humor and I said, “No, I m all set, but you could take some home to your wife and children.” And there was this tiny little– just the slightest corner of his mouth went upwards and I could see that he wanted to laugh, but he had to keep it serious. He looked at me and then he looked back at his desk and then he said okay, and he walked out. That was the last time I saw him. I m sitting in this chair and Mr. Park said, “Your case is dismissed and I m going to take you home.” Scott Did you take the Tupperware with you? Blake No. I m sure that s in an evidence locker somewhere deep in the bowels of the National Korean Police International Drug Trafficking Unit building. Mr. Park offered to drive me home and I said, “I m actually all set” because I didn t want to be around any of them. I needed to be by myself. And so he wound up driving me to the train station. I took the train station back into Seoul and then took the bus back to Paju. Scott You needed some alone time there. Blake I needed some alone time. I did wind up actually going to the apartment of the guy that I was seeing while I was over there, but then wound up eventually going back to my apartment, but it was late when I got home. Scott When you hear the words “You re free to go”, that just had to be the best feeling of relief ever. Blake It was. Oh, and actually on that drive, Mr. Park told me that another foreigner that day who had a similar case went to prison and wound up paying, like, $30,000 for a lawyer, and that was really truly the moment where I was like, “I could have lost everything. This could have been really bad.” Sort of the bright spot in all of this is I made this new friend in Mr. Park and he wound up friending me on Facebook and my suspicions were confirmed because, once a quarter, when we had a new musical that we mounted at this theater company, he and his very special friend would come visit and come see the show, and then we would go out afterwards for a meal. It was never truly confirmed, but I knew exactly what was going on. I deleted my Facebook at the top of 2025 and it was 20 years of my life that was on that platform, just gone, and he s one of those people that, after I deleted it, I thought, “Ah, shit, I should have let him know where I m going because I would love to keep in touch with him.” But maybe it s for the best that he sort of sallied off into the digital ether and I just have a lot of gratitude for him. I really do think that I am actually positive that he had my best interest in mind that entire time and that it wouldn t have gone as smoothly had he not been the translator I wound up with. So, Mr. Park, if you are somehow listening to this, I cannot express to you my gratitude because you certainly are the reason that I was released. Scott That s awesome. I am positive I have some listeners in South Korea. Blake Excellent. Maybe this will get back to get him Scott Or somebody he knows, maybe. Did you continue staying in South Korea after this happened? Blake I did. Initially, the village threatened to fire me anyway because they wanted to make an example out of me and I said to them, “That s going to be a really silly image that you re presenting to people that, even though I was innocent, you fired me anyway. That doesn t make a lot of sense and that s going to create a lot of distrust among your employees actually.” Scott Future prospective employees who would want to work there. Right? Blake Exactly. But they really wanted me to somehow be punished still, and they couldn t figure out what to do, and I said, “You know what, guys? Why don t we get the whole group? Let s get the entire staff together? The teachers, the edutainers, which is what we were called, the actual planning staff why don t we all get together and I will present a session about why it is bad to ever think that you could bring drugs into this country and you can film it. And if you want to offer it to future employees, you can do that because I m a case study as it were.” And they really liked that idea, so I had to give this seminar essentially to the entire staff about why bringing drugs into South Korea was a bad thing. I was happy to do that because I certainly was not interested in losing my job for nothing. But after that, I mean, a week later, I was in Hong Kong with my friends. Really, it was almost as if nothing had ever happened, but everything had happened. Scott I m curious what Nick had to say about this because, obviously, he didn t send this to you intentionally to get you in trouble. Blake No, he did not. No. One of the things that I so appreciate about my relationship with Nick before and after all of this happened was that we never ever had ill intent towards one another, but this situation was so precarious and really could have put me in a lot of danger and, truth be told, it was a very stupid thing to do. I got on Facebook and I messaged him and I said, “I really need you to read this, and I really need you to listen to this. If you care about me the way that I know that you do, we have to cease communication here and now.” And I gave him sort of the summary of what had happened, and he honored my request. He did not respond. After I got back to the States, I waited a couple of years before I contacted him again. I had heard through friends that he was so distraught that this had happened and it really impacted him too, and I believe that, and I believe that he has every right he had every right to feel the way that he felt about that because he was just trying to do a lovely thing and it was just a really stupid way to go about it. He knew that. I did wind up contacting him a couple years later because I missed him. I missed my friend because, despite our relationship not working out, he was my first love and he was very dear to me and I adore him. So he met me in New York City. He apologized and expressed to me there was no way he was ever going to be able to go back and change what he did but, moving forward, he d like to start fresh. What was so beautiful is, at that point, we had both gotten sober and I didn t know that about him and he didn t know that about me. We found out at that lunch that we had both gone into recovery. There was something so beautiful about that because it really just felt like that connection was real. We walked through Central Park afterwards and talked about his sobriety, talked about my sobriety and that journey, and then he took me downtown to my job at a box office on 42nd Street and dropped me off, and that was the last time that I saw him that I remember. I know there was another time, maybe a year later, where I saw him briefly in Connecticut, but it wasn t like a long visit. So that was the last time that he and I spent time together because, in the fall of 2017 this is September 16th, 2017 I had left New York City and I had moved upstate to go to grad school. After my first day of classes, I was home and my phone rang and it was my friend Steph, who is Nick s best friend. I hadn t spoken to Steph since we graduated, except for when she let me know that Nick felt really guilty before he and I reconnected. When I saw her name pop up on my phone, I knew something was wrong and I answered the phone and without even a greeting, I said, “What happened to Nick?” She let me know that he had died by suicide. It was such an interesting thing because, not only was it my first day of grad school and starting a new life for myself, but it was also my sobriety date. So it s an interesting thing that my sobriety date is also the day that Nick died by suicide. When he and I were in college, we started giving each other head-up pennies that we would find on the street, sort of as a way of saying, like, “I was thinking about you today. Here s the proof of concept.” And at the end of college, before I moved to South Korea, he gave me a giant bag of head-up coins that he had, like, laminated into paper and, on each and every single piece of paper that had been laminated to this coin, he wrote the date and the time and the location where he got that head-up coin and he gave me a full bag of them. I still have one. I left the rest of them in South Korea, but I have one left and it s framed on my piano. On the one year anniversary of his passing, I went out to lunch with a friend of mine in New Paltz, New York, because I was celebrating my sobriety. Just for context also, in college, Nick, he looked a lot like the actor, Penn Badgley, who, if folks are listening, might know him from Smallville. He s now on a show called “You”, I think. Anyway, he has his own podcast too that s done pretty well. But Nick and Penn Badgley look very similar. There was actually a point in college where Nick changed his Facebook profile picture to a picture of Penn Badgley and nobody noticed. This was sort of like a funny little known fact about Nick that everyone joked about. I was waiting for my friend at this cafe and I was thinking about Nick and she showed up. Behind her, when she walked into the cafe, this just incredibly attractive man walked in behind her. It was the end of September, she had a baseball cap and sunglasses on, and I mouthed to her like, “Holy shit, that guy s hot.” And she got really weird, so I let it go. After she and I finished our meal, I opened the door to the street. As I was walking outside, I looked down and almost stepped on a head-up penny. As I bent down to pick it up, obviously, immediately saying hello to Nicholas in my head, I said to Isabelle, “I m so sorry that I made you so uncomfortable. I was just noting that guy was really attractive.” And Isabelle said, “Oh, I know. I really don t like to bother celebrities when they re in public.” And I said, “Who was that?” And she said, “Oh, that was Penn Badgley.” Scott, I don t believe in ghosts but, boy, did that get me one step closer to believing in something. Incidentally, about a year and a half later, I told that story of the heads-up penny at this storytelling workshop, and there was a performance that accompanied the end of it. Isabelle, my friend, who was with me at the cafe, was supposed to come and she wound up not being able to go, but she left me a voicemail that I didn t get until I was walking into the performance where she said, “Sorry, honey, I m not going to be able to make it, but you re never going to guess who I just saw at the grocery store.” And once again, she had seen Penn Badgley. So I have a lot of gratitude for Nick because despite all of the crazy that happened, he was the first person who really saw all of me and loved every single part of it, and that s a special person to have in one s life. So we re coming up on– I guess this will be the ninth anniversary of his passing, in September, and I m just really grateful for him. The past five years, I really got my shit together and I lead a beautiful life. I think a big part of that is knowing that I would ve made him really proud and I m just so glad that he is always just a heads-up penny away. I m just very grateful for it. Scott A lot of times, people talk about loved ones who pass and they think about that person reappearing in their life in some way, and it seems like it s always– for most people, it s a butterfly that lands on your shoulder or something and that s that person. For you, if Penn Badgley walks in the room. Blake Well, what s hilarious about all of this is, today, I got an email from Podcast Movement Evolutions that Penn is headlining that conference coming up here soon, which you are attending actually. Scott Yeah, I got the same email, Blake So you should go ahead and go see him. And if he takes questions, let him know. No, don t, do that. That would be great. Scott No, I won t “Hey, guess what? You re a big part of this other guy s story and you should listen to my episode.” Yeah, let s talk about this. Your podcast– I mean, 15 years later, you have an award-winning podcast. It s called abandoned: The All-American Ruins Podcast. By award-winning, I just saw in the news a day or two ago that the American Writing Awards just announced your show as podcast of the year. So congratulations on that. Tell us about your show. Blake Well, thank you. First of all, that was a big surprise. I host a show called Abandoned, like you just said, and the show is an audio travel log that documents my time exploring abandoned buildings all over the world. From a very young age, I have been deeply obsessed with abandoned spaces and it s inside abandoned spaces where I learned the power of the human imagination as a tool for healing and mental wellness, and I sort of reconnected with the hobby– not sort of. I fully reconnected with the hobby when COVID started, and it s a much longer story. Essentially I had this dream. The story goes about this abandoned dairy farm that I frequented as a child in the mountains of Colorado where I grew up. I wondered if there were abandoned spaces around me because there was really nothing else to do, and I was too afraid to even go on the trails up near the Catskills where I live because there were so many people coming up from the city, and it was just such a mess, and I m such a germophobe. Anyway, abandoned spaces sort of became this refuge for me and wound up becoming these very kooky sanctuaries where I found a lot of solace and reconnected with my childhood self, which was the piece that was missing from my life. So the second I stepped into my first abandoned space, reconnecting with this hobby, immediately my imagination started spinning the exact same way that it did when I was a child. My imagination became a portal into time travel and these abandoned spaces started becoming not just interesting, historical, architectural relics, but they also started becoming mirrors to what I was watching happening in American culture and really became symbols of how I learned to understand what is happening to this country and how they represent the underbelly of America s past, present, and future, and tell a very different story about the roadmap to what we have all called 250 years of our independence. So the show is– yes, I certainly dive into the history behind these spaces but, more so, I am interested in the cultural implications and how they relate to what s happening in real time. They re also reflections of me because I found deep sanctuary and these spaces over the course of the pandemic where I was really able to sort the last remaining pieces of my life out that hadn t quite clicked yet. The biggest one of those was a return to the childhood me where I felt fully comfortable as a 38-year-old man now having this huge imagination. So, every episode, I weave folks not just through the space itself, its history and its cultural implications, but I m actually bringing folks into my imagination as I do it. So there are imaginary characters that come in and out. It s very esoteric experience and it s an immersive experience and it s not something that s a passive listen. I was very clear at the beginning of each episode, “If you re going to listen to this, it’s not something that can be done while you’re vacuuming or cooking. It needs to be done with headphones and you need to be sitting because I m about to take you on a 20-minute journey that is going to offer you some reprieve from the big bad world outside.” The reason that I resorted to doing it with audio is because I believe nothing in the whole wide world, I think, insights the human imagination better than sonic storytelling, and there s a lot of research to suggest why that s true. It allows folks the opportunity to take a little trip into a time warp and go see places that they wouldn t otherwise get to see, and then afterwards go to the blog and see if what they imagined matches up with the actual space. Scott Well, it s the whole theater of the mind. Blake That s exactly right. Scott Yeah, that s why I love audio as well. Blake, I appreciate you coming on here. Thanks for sharing your story. Blake Thanks so much for having me, Scott. It s a pleasure. Scott As you heard in our conversation, Blake’s podcast is called Abandoned: the All-American Ruins podcast. And I love the concept of this show – finding a place that people used to be in, but aren’t any more, and creating a story around that place. It’s not a surprise that this podcast has won awards. And if you want to learn more about Blake’s former partner, Nick, he did a whole episode you can listen to. It’s in season 3, in February 2025, titled Nick and the Assassination of JFK. I love the discussion happening in our Facebook group this week. On Tuesday, the question we asked was “What’s a book you read as a child and still think about today?”. This brings back some memories for me. Do you have a book that impacted you as a child, and still does? Come on over and tell us about it – WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai. And now it’s Listener Story time. We all love personal stories, and that’s how we end every regular episode here – with an audio story that was sent in by a listener. And you can send in your own story – just record it on your phone – make it around 5-10 minutes and email it to [email protected]. This listener talks about getting in trouble in school – as an adult. Stay safe, and we’ll see you next time. (Listener story) My identity in school all the way up through my master s program has been the goodie two-shoes, teacher s pet, straight A, good girl identity, but I had one professor in college my sophomore year that just was not having it with me, and it just jolted with my reality. Here are some examples of what would happen in his class, totally none of which is my fault. One time, he is lecturing yada, yada, that s basically what I heard and he turns and he says to me, “Maggie, like, you are not listening to me. Can you even answer the question?” I just stated, as a good student and an honest person, I did not do anything fake. I was like, “No, I m sorry. I was not listening. I cannot answer your question.” But then I said, “Because she–” and I pointed in front of me “–has something in her backpack.” I ve been sitting there trying to listen and be a good student as I was and this girl in front of me, I could see her backpack moving. It was very subtle, and I would stare at it for several minutes and it would not move, and then it would move and her hand would go in there. I was like, “What could possibly be in there? Nothing made sense.” I was like, “You can t put a puppy in there.” She thankfully didn t throw me under the bus. She unzips her backpack and out comes two sugar gliders, which I really didn t even know. I mean, I think everybody in the class was like, “Are those monkeys? They re not. They re marsupials. But I was like, “Oh, phew. I m vindicated here. Surely, he ll realize I m a good person, I m a good student, always concentrating. We ll be all good. Well then, some times goes by, he starts lecturing about his major pet peeve. He hates cell phones. At this time, this would ve been like 2002 or so, he was like, “Cell phones are from the devil. Cell phones are the worst thing ever and people have immediately become addicted to them.” At this time, I would say I had a cell phone and maybe one or two of my friends. Like, they were very new. So, he said to the class, which was maybe 10 people it was a small class he said, “I m not going to name names, but there s a girl in this class.” Okay, so now we re down to five or six people. “There s a girl in this class who is so addicted to her cell phone that every time she leaves class, she s got it plastered to her ear before she even reaches the door.” And he starts going on, “It is the problem. It is an addiction.” And I was like, “Hold on.” Because I was just like, “This is silly.” I said, “Everybody in here knows who you re talking about. You re talking about me.” Because I was probably the only person with a cell phone in that class, maybe one other person. But yes, I always had my cell phone plastered to my ear and I said, “My cell phone is out because I call my grandma at the same time every day to ask her how her mass was and what is she having for lunch because my grandma, as a good Catholic, always watched her– she would get her VHS out and tape mass every day and watch it every morning. As a good girl, good granddaughter, I wanted to keep in touch with my grandma when I was away at college. So, yeah, I would call her every day as the horrible evil addicted cell phone person that I was, and be like, “Hey, how was TV mass?” Because she always had an opinion on which priest it was and whether his sermon was good or not, and what was she having for lunch. What else are you going to ask your grandma about? He didn t apologize. He didn t seem to suddenly rethink how he felt about cell phones, but I was like, “Okay. Surely though, I must be back on his good list” because I want teachers to think I m just a delight. So, I didn t like that he kept having issues, but yet it strikes again. It strikes a third time. He calls me out, “Maggie, I see you writing furiously in your notebook, but you re writing way too much. You can t possibly be taking notes. Tell me, are you really taking notes there or is this related to class?” And again, being honest as I was, I said, “No, what I m writing in my notebook is not related to class.” And then he proceeded to go in this big lecture in front of everybody about dedication to your college education and blah, blah, blah. He never asked what I was writing about because the truth was, I had been through a very traumatizing experience either the night before or possibly the weekend before. I had two options in my mind. I could stay in my dorm room and cry into my pillow all day, or I could go through the motions, get myself showered and dressed, go to class, and just absorb as much as I was able to. What I ended up sort of doing– I don t even think I knew the word, but stream of consciousness journaling just naturally came to me as the thing I needed to do to sort through my feelings and what had happened to me. To me, I was being like a really good student. I mean, I had been through something and yet I was showing up. I didn t miss a day of class. I had to kind of journal my feelings, but I really thought that was not disruptive, but this guy had it all for me. So that s my story. I think three times in my entire life, up through grad school, I got yelled at by a teacher and it was all the same professor. I think, if anything, it s just a lesson to maybe keep your eyes out for your pet peeves and realize that might make you make some pretty wide judgements about people that maybe is not fair and maybe you should be aware of that. I would be curious, honestly– I would so love it if somebody could tell me if that professor had a cell phone. I mean, did he have a cell phone later that year, even? Because everybody has a cell phone.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What is the worst second hand embarrassment you ve ever felt? Links for this episode: Washington, DC lunch picture (from left to right: Meredith, Scott, Jayna, Kiona, Laura): DC video in CVS https://youtube.com/shorts/okIKTmzebVo Meredith’s nail polish: https://www.essie.com/nail-polish/longwear Scott’s Drip Dry recommendation: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TBXWNW?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title th=1 Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

If your brain changes, are you still the same person? That was the question behind a 1991 movie titled Regarding Henry. In that film, Harrison Ford played the part of Henry Turner. Henry was a wealthy New York City lawyer. He was also narcissistic, uncaring, and even a little unethical sometimes. He got what he wanted and he didn’t care who was in the way. One night he stops into a convenience store and accidentally interrupts an armed robbery. Henry gets shot in the head, but somehow survives. But he has damage to his brain. As he recovers, he slowly emerges as someone very different than who he was before the shooting. He forges new, loving relationships with his wife and his daughter. And of course they love the “new” Henry. My guest today is Marcy. She’s a wife and a mother. She has first-hand experience with seeing someone change after a traumatic brain injury – it was her husband, Greg. He was not the same person. Marcy with her kids If you’d like to contact Marcy, she’s in the Facebook group – WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/251 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): If your brain changes, are you still the same person? That was the question behind a 1991 movie titled Regarding Henry. In that film, Harrison Ford played the part of Henry Turner. Henry was a wealthy New York City lawyer. He was also narcissistic, uncaring, and even a little unethical sometimes. He got what he wanted and he didn’t care who was in the way. One night he stops into a convenience store and accidentally interrupts an armed robbery. Henry gets shot in the head, but somehow survives. But he has damage to his brain. As he recovers, he slowly emerges as someone very different than who he was before the shooting. He forges new, loving relationships with his wife and his daughter. And of course they love the “new” Henry. My guest today is Marcy. She’s a wife and a mother. She has first-hand experience with seeing someone change after a traumatic brain injury – it was her husband, Greg. He was not the same person. Scott What was it about Greg that first attracted you to him?  Marcy Oh, he was a great looking guy for starters, and very athletic. The night we met, I think he was playing foosball and just crushing it at the foosball table. Back then, people played foosball and that was very attractive. Somehow, we struck up a conversation and things kind of went from there. Scott Okay. So a little bit of back story when this happened. Who was in your family at the time? Obviously, your husband, Greg.  Marcy So yeah, my husband, Greg, and my son who was five and my daughter who was two and a half.  Scott And how long had you been married at that point?  Marcy I ve been married for 12 years at that point. Scott So it seemed everything you ve told me about Greg is that he was pretty happy and everybody liked him.  Marcy Yeah, it was a very happy-go-lucky kind of funny, sweet guy. I mean my nephews preferred him over me when we would get together with them. We d go to see my sister, we d open the door, and they would run to greet him first before me. So yeah, he was a really likeable guy.  Scott And he was a hard worker. What kind of work did he do?  Marcy Oh yeah, he was a really hard worker he had a custom framing company, so he framed big custom homes and a very talented carpenter as well. He did a good bit of the work himself. He had a crew, but he also did a good bit of the work himself. Scott Alright, so let s talk about that day. What happened and was there anything unusual that morning at all?  Marcy Nope. It was a normal day. We had our sales meeting that day and I went to work. We kissed goodbye. We got the kids all set up. It was summertime, so they were going to camp. I believe I probably dropped them off. Just a normal morning. Went to work. Yeah, it was a normal day.  Scott And he usually left earlier than you.  Marcy He did. In construction, they typically started at 7.30 and finished by 4. I was in a sales meeting and it was one of those meetings where you re in a conference room, the door s closed, and everybody waits to interrupt until it s over. Like, nobody just comes in. The HR lady, who s a friend of mine, opened the door, was like, “Marcy, you need to come out. You need to come with me.” So my first thought was the kids. Something happened to my kids? One was at camp, the little one, my daughter was, I believe, with a babysitter probably, or daycare. So of course, my first thought went to my children as I m sure for a lot of moms.   Scott Sure. That s always the first thought. Yeah.  Marcy So I went to take a phone call and the lady who had come in to get me already knew. She had been on the phone with the paramedics and so– (sob) sorry. It was a paramedic on the line. He is saying he d fallen and I could hear screaming in the background. I knew that was him, but I didn t know how badly hurt he was. They were telling me he was badly hurt and they needed to get him to the ER and they were either going to LifeFlight him or drive him to the closest hospital, depending on where a neurosurgeon could be available immediately, and none of that really registered to me. Neurosurgeon. Like what? None of it registered. My other really good friend came out of the meeting because, now, everybody knew there was something major going on, so she drove me to the hospital. We actually got to the hospital before he did.  Backing up a little bit, it turns out neurosurgeon was available at the hospital, which was about a 10-minute drive from where he was working from his job site. It was about a 30-minute drive for us. So she drove me, we got there, and the first thing they did was usher us into this, like, little back room.  Scott But you got there before the ambulance, right? Marcy We actually did, and I found out later because with the type of head injury that he had, he d fallen and landed on his back, his head, and he was immediately combative. Apparently, they were having a hard time getting him stabilized so they could put him on a gurney and get him into the ambulance. Scott Okay. So you were in this waiting room where they brought you. Who else came in?  Marcy Greg s best friend came in, who d been on the job site with him. He couldn t really talk. He had blood on his shorts and he just really was sitting there and I was like, “What happened?” And he just was like, it s bad. He couldn t tell me and we didn t really know yet how bad. He’s a big guy that was just completely freaked out.  Scott So you still really didn t know any details of what had happened. Marcy No. Didn t have any details yet. The ambulance did come. We saw it pull up and I went running out and– of course, they ushered us away me and my friend and were like, “We need to get him into surgery,” et cetera. So, we went back to the room. Then, the paramedics who brought him came into the room and they needed to get information his age, all the details that you have to give somebody in that kind of scenario. I think I was just completely numb at that point. I just knew it was bad, but I just didn t know how bad. Then, here s these two big burly ambulance guys across from me with tears in their eyes. They re, like, sad. I m thinking, “Why are you sad? Nothing happened to you. Why are you sad?” Of course, in hindsight, I knew they were sad because they knew my life had just completely changed as I knew it, but I didn t realise that yet, but they did. They knew from the type of injury that he had that nothing would ever be the same again for me. Scott Before he went into surgery, the surgeon came in also. Marcy Right. She came in and she was detailing out the injuries. He s got two broken vertebrae in his back. He s got a broken shoulder, he has a broken ankle, and he has a major TBI, which is a traumatic brain injury. So I m asking questions like, “Well, is he going to be paralysed? How bad is his back?” And she s like, “Don t worry about the back. It s the head injury that we re really concerned about. We re about to take him into surgery. Do you want to come back and see him first?” Went back. It was July, it was summertime, and he was super tan and he just had shorts on at that point and he was laying there on the hospital bed completely peaceful. He was in really good shape. He looked fine except he had blood gushing from his ears because of the head injury.  Scott Was he conscious at all at that point?  Marcy No, he was not conscious. He was just out completely still. His body looked fine. It was just his head but you couldn t see any injuries to the actual head itself. Like I said, there was blood coming from his ears.  Scott For you to see that, that had to just be traumatizing for you as well.  Marcy Yes. At that point, I was just numb. I was just trying to take it all in and everything was happening so fast at that point. They re talking in medical jargon that you don t understand and they re asking, “Who do you want to call?” And I couldn t think of anybody to call because I would ve called him. So I didn t call anybody. I was there by myself with my friend and she was like, “Oh my gosh. I have to call somebody for you.” And she kind of took over. I just was kind of incapable of doing much. He was in surgery for three or four hours, and then they came. We were in the ICU waiting room. They said he d be in the ICU. So then, they came out to the ICU waiting room and, by then, a couple more people had come some friends and people who had heard what had happened and they said, “You can go in and see him.” Just me.  It was so shocking. ICU rooms are all open to the main nursing station. There s no doors and tubes everywhere. His head was shaved. He had a drain coming out of his head. He was on a ventilator. There was a nurse in his room that was stationed in his actual room. I could even barely get into the room there was so much machinery there.  When they do surgery, somebody has a traumatic brain injury, what they re trying to do is relieve the pressure in the brain as much as possible because the brain is going to continue to swell. He cracked his skull when he fell about 30 feet. He fell from a second storey he d been framing. He s a great framer, like I said, a great carpenter, and he just made a mistake and didn t nail something down and fell through a hole where the stairs would ve been and fell all the way down to the concrete basement and hit his head. So the brain just has nowhere to go. It gets slammed into the front of the skull. There really is no successful surgery. They re just trying to relieve as much pressure on the brain as possible in hopes of alleviating as much damage as possible because the brain is– they don t know how damaged it s going to be at that point, or how much swelling there s going to be, but they did say, “It d be about 48 hours before we know whether he ll live or die.” Scott And you re thinking, I m not going to know anything new for the next two days.  Marcy Yeah, time goes slow. Nowadays, 48 hours is the blink of an eye, or prior to that. That 48 hours was forever. I stayed at the hospital. I think I stayed probably till about 2 AM and then they wanted me to go home. There was nowhere for me to stay in the room or sleep, and it was just fueling my anxiety in a way that was just– I m sure I was making them crazy too, like asking all the questions about the beeping and the pressures going up. I finally did go home, came back early the next day, and that kind of became the routine. Scott And what about your kids?  Marcy They were at camp with a good friend of mine. Well, my son was at camp with a good friend of his family, so he went home with them for a couple days. I had a nanny in the past for the kids and she came back to the house and stayed with my kids and she was a godsend. She stayed for the next month or so at the house.  Scott Can you talk about your friend who was an ICU nurse who kind of translated stuff for you?  Marcy Yeah. Like I said, my anxiety was just at a hundred because I just didn t understand all these numbers. There s pressures and beeps from different machines and the amount of liquid being drained from the brain and blah, blah, blah. So, she was amazing. She was an ICU nurse, so she came and just explained to me what all these numbers meant, not that any of them were necessarily good, but at least I had some kind of an understanding. She brought me, like, a pad and a pen so I could write some of these things down because I was, again, trying to remember the medical jargon. This was like everybody had their phone. I could have Googled what does this mean or what does that mean. I was just taking it all in and trying to understand what was going on.  Scott And this was just a friend of yours? It wasn t one of the nurses working in the ICU there, right? Marcy Right, She just happened to be an ICU nurse and a friend of mine.  Scott That s pretty handy.  Marcy Yeah. She was amazing to have around. Over the next couple of days, you re just watching the swelling and watching to see is it going to get to the point where his brain is no longer functioning or is the swelling going to start going down. The swelling did start going down and they knew he was going to make it, so they put him at that point in an induced coma to make sure that his body would be still, and he d be able to start healing, whatever that looked like. I mean, the next few days were just a nightmare. He was in a coma. He developed pneumonia, which is apparently not uncommon when you re in a coma, so they put him in this, like, massive iron rotating bed. Then, every day when I was there, they would have me go out of the room and they would suction his lungs and it was terrible.  In the meantime, I got a letter from the insurance company that they weren t going to pay his bills because it was an on the job accident. I got a letter from OSHA fining his company, like, $5,000. It was like one nightmare after another. There were a couple different times that they tried to take him off the ventilator and lift him from the coma. The first time, he immediately was, like, fighting against everything, so they put him back under. They tried again, I don t know, maybe a couple days later and took him off the ventilator, lifted the meds that he was on that was inducing the coma, and I had this expectation that, just like the movies, he d come out of the coma and everything would be great, he s going to be fine. There s even a movie like that, right? They d come out of a coma and it was so far from that.  The first time, they had him sitting up. I remember I think I had gone to take my kids somewhere, I don t remember, but I got to the hospital and they had him sitting in a chair and he was holding onto a blood pressure cuff, like picking at some imaginary stuff on that blood pressure cuff. I don t even know how to describe it, but it was horrifying. I walked in and he didn t even acknowledge me. It s like nothing was there.  Scott Was he at all aware of what had happened or why he was in the hospital?  Marcy No, I mean, I guess the one godsend for the person who has the injury is that with the TBI, traumatic brain injury, to that extent, they don t know, they don t understand what happened. He didn t even know he was in a hospital. As he started to get “a little bit more aware”, I say in quotes because it wasn t aware like you and I would think of aware situationally aware. He thought he was at a hotel and he wanted us to check out. It s like, “We need to check out. We need to leave. We need to check out.” And he would ask the same questions over and over again, “Where are we and why are we here?” And he couldn t absorb any of it.  The ICU portion was about 10 days, and then they transferred him to an inpatient rehab type unit and they wanted to put him in this thing called a veil bed, which is like a zipped up canvas bed, so that if he did wake up middle of the night, he wouldn t wander or try to hurt himself or whatever. I refused to let them put him in that thing because I was like, “Oh my gosh, if he wakes up and he s in this trap, he s going to freak out.” It sounded horrible to me and it seemed almost, like, animalistic, putting him in a cage. So they said, “Well you re going to have to pay for a private nurse.” And I was like, “Okay then. We ll pay for a private nurse to sit in the room with him.” So did that.  Maybe three or four days later, he started coming around a little bit more, but he still wasn t aware of where he was. Same questions every day. Where are we? Why are we here? And just constantly agitated and had no filter. There was one kind of funny story where my sister had come and we were trying to keep him entertained and he was in the bed and there was like a big erase board directly in front of him. So she started to draw, like, a tic-tac-toe up there so we could play a tic-tac-toe or maybe hang man, I can t remember. As she s doing this, she has her back to him and, out of the blue, he says, “Gosh, see, I never realized how big your butt was.” So he had no filter. That was the only funny thing that ever happened. Beyond that, he was just mad. He was angry.  They were letting him get into a wheelchair and wheel around the hallways. We went outside a little bit and I came the next day and they told me he stole cigarettes from somebody. The weird part is he had been a smoker, but he had quit about a month before the accident, but he had forgotten that he quit. He had been a smoker his whole life and he had just had no memory. Apparently, he stole cigarettes from somebody on the floor and they thought I brought him cigarettes. That was a bit of a mess.  Scott Around this time, were you able to have any kind of meaningful conversation with him, or could you comprehend that he wasn t quite the same as before? Marcy Yeah. It was very clear that he wasn t the same as before, but I thought he would continue to get better. The neurosurgeon said, “Yeah, he s going to continue to get better.” There s kind of a scale they give you of the stages of a traumatic brain injury. There s like aphasia, which is actually what I think Bruce Willis has, where you say things like, “Okay, hand me the fork,” and what you really have in your hand is a cup. You mix words up and a lot of that, and then he would just get super pissed, frustrated, mad. It was everybody else s fault. He didn t know what was going on, so I thought, “Maybe if I bring the kids–” A good friend of mine was staying at the house with the kids at this point, and I thought, “Maybe if I bring the kids, he ll recognise them and it will trigger something for him.” So I had her bring them and it was a disaster. Get into the hospital room and he didn t recognize my son, his son. He was just like, “Oh, you re a big kid. Come here.” And he was scary. Sometimes, you just have that initial feeling from somebody that they re just scary. You don t want to be around them, and that s how he was. I don t even know the word for it. It was so unbelievable. It was like how could this be happening?  Scott Yeah. And your son was just five at the time, right? Marcy Yeah, he was five.  Scott And of course, you had never seen Greg have any kind of interaction like that with him. Marcy No, he was a great dad. He loved the kids and yeah, he loved having kids. He was a good dad. Same with my daughter. Nothing really registered and she didn t want to sit by him. She didn t want to sit on his lap. She just was also just kind of afraid of him. It s like the instinct that kids have of danger or whatever that is. So like I said, it was a disaster. I told my friend, I said, “Just take them back home.” He was getting more agitated because he didn t know why these kids were in his room. So she got back out to the car and she told me later that she put my daughter in her car seat and then she came around to strap my son and he had his little hands in prayer and he knew enough. He was praying. He was praying for his dad.  Scott We talked about your life changing. Their life changed then as well.  Marcy Yes, their life changed tremendously and, in some ways, I felt like it was a blessing that they were so young and didn t have as many memories of him before. I thought, in a lot of ways, that was a good thing because they wouldn t really know what they lost. They just knew him as the dad that he became after the accident. So before he came home, they told me to remove the keys, remove the alcohol. They gave me all the meds, all the things. He had a back brace because he had two broken vertebrae in his back and sent him home with Risperidol and Trazodone and all of these, like, heavy duty antipsychotics, if you will, which in hindsight, there s no relation between psychosis and brain injury. I guess one is to calm the brain. In the case of TBI, it s almost like everything got unplugged and they were trying to use these meds to plug things back in, maybe, but it didn t work. So we got home and he didn t know what was going on, why he couldn t drive, why he couldn t drink alcohol. I was angry, agitated. The first night we were in bed and one of his friends had come home with us to help me and spend the night. He was down in our basement bedroom and, all of a sudden, in the middle of the night, Greg wakes up and he s like, “I just know you snuck downstairs and you fucked Bob and you were down there in the basement with him.” I mean, it was so scary because obviously nothing like that had happened. But he was just so angry. That look in his eyes was “I m going to hurt you” kind of a look and just made no sense. I mean, I d been in bed the whole time. Scott That must have instilled a little bit of fear in you just having him back in the home. Did you have fear for yourself or for the kids?  Marcy I started to. I mean, almost right away, after that happened, yes. It became very scary. He was illogical. He would get angry over the smallest things. He would punch the wall, kick my car when I would try to go somewhere with the kids. The kids would not stay with him, so if I wanted to go to the grocery store or anything, I would have somebody come over and sit with him while I went to the grocery store. At this point, he was in outpatient rehab, so he was going to rehab most days during the day. I had my daughter she was two and a half and I had been working at the time, just going back to that. I had an angel of a boss who gave me 12 weeks off, fully paid because he knew I needed to take care of my kids and try to take care of my husband.  Scott You had enough to worry about. Marcy Yes. He s in outpatient rehab and I would drive him every day. Somebody would stay at the house and watch the kids. It was summertime, like I said. My son was going to various camps and then we rolled around to the fall and it s kindergarten. My son was going to kindergarten that year. I remember waiting at the bus stop on the first day of kindergarten and he didn t want to wait anymore. The bus was running late and Greg didn t want to wait anymore. He was like, “We got to go. I have to be at rehab. I have to be there at whatever time.” I was like, “This is our son s first day at kindergarten. Let s just wait for the bus.” And he was just getting super agitated. So one of my neighbours finally said, “Don t worry about it. We ll get him on the bus.” So that s always stuck with me. I never got to see him get on the bus for the first time just kind of meaningful time in a parent s life, right?  Scott Yeah. That s one of those moments.  Marcy Yeah.  Scott You told me ahead of time that it s okay to ask this question. How did this change sex with Greg?  Marcy Yeah, it was definitely like sleeping with a stranger and I didn t want to have sex with him, but I also felt like his wife and, maybe, in some way, shape or form, that will help him. But it was horrible. Again, it felt like sleeping with a stranger. It was just bad. It was bad all around.  Scott So you knew obviously something semi-permanent had changed. I mean, what do you do? Are there support meetings? How do you proceed from there?  Marcy Yes, there were brain injury support group meetings at the hospital for people who had a serious TBI and we would go to those and they had somebody there to watch the kids, and we would all sit around and talk. The spouse of the injured person would sometimes be often in the small group trying to just– we understood kind of a little bit more what was going on. Nobody else in the group had the same situation as me. One of the ladies had a husband who, after his TBI, became very childlike, which also can happen. So, for her, it was like taking care of another child instead of a husband. She would tell me that he seemed to understand that something was not quite right and he didn t know how to do certain things that he would allow her to whereas, with Greg, he was just angry, like, all the time.  I remember, one morning, we were on the way to one of the meetings and he asked me to get him some candy because he wanted some candy for breakfast. I said sure. So, I went in the house, got some candy, brought it out to the car, and he totally lost his shit because he told me he didn t say candy. He had said candy, for sure, but he had thought that he had said, like, a cereal bar. It was like the ultimate mind fuck constantly because I started questioning myself, “What did he say? Maybe he did say that and I didn t understand it.” I have my kids and I m trying to do all these support groups and doctors. Maybe it was me. Maybe he did say something and I took it the wrong way or I didn t understand what he said. There were a lot of those situations where he was just completely illogical.  There was one night where I think I d bathed the kids and I had sent them to go downstairs and I was cleaning up the bathroom. He was downstairs and I was just hurrying up, trying to get down there as quickly as I could, so they wouldn t be with him for very long alone. My daughter asked him if she could have Tootsie Rolls for a snack before bedtime I remember this like yesterday and yelled up to me upstairs. I m coming down. He says, “Can she have Tootsie Rolls for a snack before bedtime?” And I said, “Yeah, that s fine.” He goes, “Why would you tell her that she can have Tootsie Rolls before bedtime?” I said, “Well, you just asked me if she can have Tootsie Rolls because she asked you and I said yes.” He goes, “But why would you say yes? Why would you do that?” The conversations that we were having were just– it s hard to describe, but they just had no logic. They were, like, circular conversations that just didn t make sense and he didn t realize they didn t make sense, but they didn t make sense.  He was angry and mad. Instead of taking a breather maybe and being like, “Okay, maybe there is something wrong,” or just calming down or anything, he could not calm down. He just would not ever calm down. And it s hard because– I mean, some of it, obviously most of it, all of it, it wasn t his fault. But by the same token, living in that situation was absolutely killing me and my kids. I d lost about 30 pounds. I mean, I m not a big person as it is. I couldn t eat, I couldn t sleep, I couldn t do anything.  Then, two months after the accident is when 9/11 happened. And, on that particular day, his best friend, the one who d come to the hospital, had started taking him on occasion back to the job site just to have him be there and be in what seems to be somewhat of a familiar environment and give me a break. These were on, like, non-rehab days. On that particular day, I had told Pete, , his friend, that I would come pick him up at lunchtime, and I had told Greg we would go get a bite to eat before heading back to the house. So 9/11 happened that morning and we all know what happened and it was horrible and everybody s just freaking out. We got to the restaurant and the TVs were on, and everybody is of course glued to the TVs, watching what s going on, watching the news, and he literally looked up because I think we just got our food and say, “Are you going to watch TV the whole time or are we going to eat lunch together?” It was just a moment for me that almost took me completely over the edge because this thing is going on and he has no concept of it. He doesn t understand. I m trying to figure out what s going on in the world and he just has no concept, he couldn t care less, he just was just mad that I wasn t paying attention to him at that moment.  So I called Pete and I was like, “Pete, please, I m bringing him back. I can t do this today.” And so Pete came and got him, and I think I went to some friend s house that day.  Scott It paints quite a picture because you re seeing on the news, on the television that everything s being destroyed but, right in front of you, your own world is falling apart as well. Marcy Yeah, I kept having hope that things would get better. Like I said, we did brain injury support group meetings and we did a variety of different counselling sessions. I continued to have hope that he would get better.  Scott Can you remember a particular time when you just came to the realization that he s not the same person or was it just gradual? Marcy He was not the same person from the time he woke up from the coma. But what was gradual for me was realizing that he was never really going to get better like he was going to be. He was a little bit better to where he knew how to brush his teeth and do all the normal things, but he wasn t going to ever get better, and that s kind of what happened gradually. We went to several different types of counselors. I found one counsellor who specialised in– he was a marriage counsellor, but he specialized in trauma therapy and we d go to our first session and he said all the ground rules. I m not on your side, I m not on her side, blah, blah, blah.  We started the conversation and it was things like, “Well, she moved my cup last night when we were at dinner from the right side to the left side, and that s bullshit. That s some fucked up shit.” And the counselor s like, “Marcy, can you give me a little bit from your side?” Because again, he s not calling Greg out, he s not doing any of that. I said, “This is kind of our life. There s no logic to the things that he gets mad about and overreacts to.” So he says to Greg, “Is there a different way maybe you could have said that? I don t like you moving my cup or?” Greg launches into, “No, that s just bullshit. She shouldn t be doing that. And it s so fucked up.” The counsellor said, “Greg, can you step outside for a minute? I want to talk to Marcy by herself.” So my husband stepped out and he said to me, “I m so, so, so, so sorry, but I can t help you. This is not that. I can t help you.” So at that point, it was just getting closer to being at my woods end and just being like, I don t know how much longer I can do this. If it wasn t for my kids, I d be done, I d just be out.  The final straw was we started going to see our pastor. We were pretty involved in church at the time and he was comfortable with the pastor and went to see the pastor. The pastor was a wonderful man. The first session, he was just very kind and very understanding. We didn t really get anywhere, but he was just very empathetic. We got home and, that evening, I said to Greg, “When do you want to make the next appointment?” Because he was going back to work some days, I was trying to ask him, schedule-wise, when would you like to go? And he said, “I want to go on the next rain day.”  “I don t know when it s going to rain, Greg. Can we just decide on a day?”  “Nope. I want to go next time it rains.” I mean, it was definitive and cruel. Did he know that was like a really fucked up thing to say or not? There were times I couldn t tell whether he was cruel because he was cruel or he was intentionally being more difficult, but that was like the last straw for me and I knew I had to save myself. At this point, my friends were all saying, “This is not good. This is not getting better.” Scott They could see the toll it was having on you. Maybe more than you could.  Marcy Yes, I think so. I would be like, “No, he s getting better. Come over and talk to him and you ll see.” And they would come over and they would talk to him. They d be like, “Not sure what you re seeing, but it s not getting better.” But I think I was at that point so traumatized I don t even know the word. I just kept looking for the slightest ray of hope that things might be better and it just wasn t. The kids were scared of him and he was mean to the kids and that s one thing that I don t know that I handled as well as I could have, but we did finally get divorced. It was really difficult with the kids and he wanted some custody, but it was like he only wanted it to be vengeful because he knew I didn t want to give him any custody.  When I was around the kids and we talked about him, I never said anything bad, but I never said anything good. I never told them at any point in time when they were growing up that he was a great guy and he was sweet and kind and all those things because I always thought that, if I told them those things, it would feel like more of a loss to them whereas, if they just knew him as this person who wasn t good to be around and wasn t nice to be around, then unfortunately they just had this dad who was just not a nice person. And yes, he d had this accident, but you could only be empathetic for so long when somebody is constantly being cruel and, eventually, it breaks you. Scott Yeah. You didn t want them to feel the same loss that you were feeling. Marcy Right, yes. I thought it was protecting them and, sometimes, I think in hindsight, maybe I should have talked more about the good side too.  Scott It s easy to think about things in hindsight, but you ve got to give yourself some grace. You were thrust into a position through no fault of your own, or Greg s, and you have no idea how to handle this. All you can do is the best that you can do to protect yourself and your kids.  Marcy Yes. Thank you for saying that. I think I appreciate you saying that because it was so hard to get people to understand what I was going through and why I would leave, why I would get a divorce because people looked at it in a nutshell, “Okay, he fell, he had this accident, he had this brain injury, and then you left.” And I wrestled with that so much for so long because nobody understood what I was really going through and living with, and that part was also hard for many years.  Scott That s got to be incredibly difficult to be judged by people who don t really know what s going on.  Marcy Yeah. That was definitely difficult, but I was also in the middle of trying to raise my kids and work. I didn t get any child support from him. He went back to work a little bit, but not to any meaningful extent and I was just trying to get by.  Scott How did you have that conversation with him to tell him that you want a divorce?  Marcy I remember broaching the conversation and he was like, “No way.” He thought everything was fine. I mean, again, he just didn t have any concept of how cruel he was or that the kids were scared of him. He just didn t have a realistic picture of what was going on. I think I eventually enlisted his family and asked them to, “Please just tell him to come home for a little bit. Let me get me and my kids out of there.” He just wasn t going to leave. He didn t understand really what was exactly going on and why I would want a divorce.  Scott And how did the kids feel about that?  Marcy I think divorce is hard, no matter what age the kids are, what the situation is, because it s just a change. It s a big change. They were fine though. They were better because they weren t around him anymore, but he had some custody. He had like once a week and every other weekend, which as I said, was more like something bad to do to me more than he wanted the kids. They had to go over there and be at his house one night a week and every other weekend and that was also tough on them because he wasn t nice. Shortly after we got divorced, he told them to call me mo-hoe, like literally, and they were little. So they d come home and, during dinner, they d go, “Dad says we need to start calling you mo-hoe.”  Scott What does that mean?  Marcy Your mom, the hoe, like literally. I mean, they were too young to really understand. I knew they didn t really get what was going on and that it would all just kind of play out like it would play out and I was as supportive to my kids as I possibly could be. I never said anything negative about Greg. Like I said, I didn t say anything positive, but I never said anything negative. Over time, he became more and more cruel to them. They became more of the punching bag. Another thing I felt guilty about is I had escaped it, but they couldn t really escape it. Scott Yeah, but you tried to help them escape it.  Marcy I did.  Scott The courts just didn t agree apparently.  Marcy Exactly, yes. I mean, he could be functional enough to fake his way out in a conversation. The crazy part is if you didn t know him before, you wouldn t know what kind of person he was. If he s talking to a judge or an attorney, they just think he s kind of a short tempered guy, just not very easygoing but, unless they were in a scenario where they frustrated him or pissed him off, they re not going to see what s really going on.  Scott This all happened about 25 years ago. Marcy Yeah.  Scott What s happened with Greg since then?  Marcy Unfortunately, my kids haven t seen him in about 15 years. He was just so difficult to be around and so mean and hateful about me. They just chose to quit associating with him as soon as they were able to and he continued to work with his friend doing construction type work. From what I understand, that s still what he s doing. I m in touch a little bit with my ex sister-in-law. He remarried and was remarried for a few years while my kids were really young, which was a good thing. She was a lovely woman, but she d actually come from a domestic abuse situation, so I think that volatility wasn t as– I don t know. Maybe being with Greg felt familiar to her for some reason. They ended up getting divorced as well after about five years of marriage. He s out there somewhere but I have completely lost touch, like I said, so are my kids. Scott What s one of your favourite memories with Greg from before the accident?  Marcy Oh, I think my favourite memory is that we used to always sit down as a family for dinner. Of course, again, the kids were really little. One particular night, Greg got some food on his face and I said, “Hey, you have some food on your face,” and he goes, “Oh yeah, I m saving that for later.” And then, a couple days go by and we re sitting at dinner again and my son had something on his face, I said, “Hey buddy, you got something on your face.” He goes, “I know, mom. I m saving it for later.” Of course, Greg laughed his ass off at that. Of course, it was funny and cute and all the things. He was a good dad.  Scott You ve told me that part of your reason for telling this story now was for your kids. Can you talk about that?  Marcy Oh yeah. They know the overarching picture, but they don t know all the details and I always tried to protect him from most of that. Of course, they have their own story because they also had to live with him. The other part is that I ve wrestled so much with, “Should I tell them more about the good stuff?” Again, I didn t want them to feel more of a sense of loss than they already did and I just want them to know the whole picture that this is what happened. I did do my best. I tried to do what I thought would protect them. I don t know if it was the right thing or the wrong thing.  Scott You re a good mom. Marcy Thank you, Scott.  Scott I m sure they understand that  Marcy They re great kids. I mean, they ve turned out amazing. I mean, they re both awesome and I m very proud of both of them. They re very kind and sweet and very caring.  Scott Maybe they inherited that from you and from the original Greg.  Marcy Yeah. Scott You said something interesting to me also that, in a way, you were kind of jealous of people whose spouses had been in an accident and had actually died.  Marcy Yeah, that was a tough one for most people to understand. When somebody has a spouse die suddenly, just like this accident happened suddenly, they immediately mourn that person and they have these great memories of that person and it seems like the norm that people will just remember the good things when somebody dies that suddenly, especially in a marriage. They just remember the good stuff and that s kind of a gift, and I didn t get any of that. He lived but he became this completely different, horrible person. I thought many times it probably would ve been better if he had not, and that s the blessing and the curse of modern medicine, right? They want to save somebody no matter what and is that always the best thing to do? Scott And yet, once again, it s one of those things that if you say that out loud, “It would ve been better if he died”, nobody is going to understand that.  Marcy Yeah. Maybe my kids, but yeah, nobody who hasn t lived through it. But as I said to you, Scott, if somebody told me that, tomorrow, I would have that exact same experience, I would literally say, “I ve had a good life. I m out. Not doing it again.” Scott Have you met anyone else who s gone through what you ve experienced?  Marcy No, and that s the crazy part. I really wish I had. I know there s people out there who have had significant others or kids who ve had traumatic brain injuries and have turned more violent. I take that back. I was actually pen pals, email pals with a lady whose son had a traumatic brain injury and he also was violent and just not logical, same kind of scenario, but I think that people don’t maybe hear about it as much. People always want to hear the happy stories, the wake up from the coma and everything is wonderful story. Scott There s a good chance someone listening to this has been through something similar, so maybe they can reach out to you. I don t know what that connection would look like, but you would. You re in the podcast Facebook group, so that s where someone can contact you. Tell us just a quick update, what s happened with you since then? Marcy Yeah, so I was a single mom for about 14 years. I did date some, but my kids got older and grown. About three years ago I got remarried to a great guy and I felt like all those terrible years are now good years. I was in that bad situation for so long and now it s like the exact opposite. I ve married a great guy and we have a great life.  Scott We like a story with a happy ending. Marcy, thanks for sharing your story with us.  Marcy Yeah, of course. Hopefully, it ll help somebody else. Scott As I mentioned in our conversation, Marcy is in the Facebook group so come on over and find the post for this episode to ask a question or leave a comment about her story. WhatWasThatLIke.com/facebook. And speaking of Facebook, the question in the group this past Tuesday was “What’s something most  people think they want, until they get it?”. It’s like that old phrase, “be careful what you ask for!”. Do you have something like that? Come on over and share it with us. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And now, you’re in for a treat with this week’s Listener Story. Each main episode ends with a story that was sent in by a listener. And we’re still waiting on YOU to send in your story. Just record it on your phone, make it around 5-10 minutes, and email to me – [email protected].  This listener tells a pretty amazing lost and found story. Stay safe, and I’ll see you next time. (Listener Story) When I was a senior in high school, my parents got me a super nice Seiko watch as a graduation gift. It was gold and shiny, weighty, and they looked great on my wrist. At some point after I graduated and moved to Colorado, I accidentally hit the watch and knocked a small chip off the crystal face. Little did I know that small chip would soon play a key role in one of the greatest stories ever to unfold. As a freshman at Colorado State University, I lived in the on-campus dorms. It was a requirement. I lived in Westfall Hall, a 12-storey high rise on the west end of campus. The view from my 10th floor room was amazing. Looking out of the mountains, just to the west of the city, sunsets were epic. There was another set of dorms right next to the towers. Between the two dorms was a rec centre that housed a cafeteria and a bar called The Tap, which is key to this story. In Colorado during the 1980s, you had to be 21 to drink alcohol. If you were over 18, you could drink what was called 3-2 beer. Instead of having 6% alcohol, it only had 3.2% alcohol. Hence, the name. Even though it was beer light, we just drank twice as much and achieved the same effect.  So one night, let s just say I had my fair share of twice as much as I probably should have. The good thing though, I only had to stumble my way across a courtyard to get back to the building where my dorm was, which I did. However, once I got there, I didn t go right up to my room. Instead, I decided to go to the basement where there was a game room with all sorts of video games. There was no one else in the room. It was dark and quiet when I walked in, with the exception of the occasional bleep or bloop of a video game. I flipped on the lights, walked over to a game where you had to stand to play. I wasn t quite getting the dexterity in my hand movements that I needed to get the high score and a few free games. Instead of thinking, “Well, it must be because I m smashed,” I figured it had to be the watch on my left hand, the same shiny gold watch given to me as a graduation gift. So I took the watch off and set it on top of the video game cabinet. Problem solved, racked up points, fee free games, called it a night. The next morning, I woke up incredibly hungover and starving, so I rolled out of bed and was heading out my dorm room when I suddenly realised my watch was not on my wrist. Fuck! After a brief moment of panic through the pounding in my head, I remember I had taken it off after the bar last night when I was playing video games. No problem. I went down to the basement of the building, walked up to the video game I was playing, reached up on top of the cabinet, fully expecting my watch to be there. Fuck! I went to the office where the RAs hung out and asked if anyone had turned a watch in from the game room. Nope. I kept checking for the next week or so, but nothing. The watch was gone.  Christmas break was quickly approaching and I was in a panic. If I showed up at home with no watch on my wrist, my parents would ask questions. I m a terrible liar, and would ve been caught immediately if I tried to make something up. So I went down to the jewellery store at the mall, and luckily they had the same exact SEIKO watch in stock. I bought it. It literally blew most of my budget for the second half of the year, but I d figured that out later when I walked off the plane and greeted my parents. That watch would be on my wrist and they would be none the wiser, which I did, and they weren t.  In my second semester, I took an introductory astronomy class. I figured it would be kind of interesting and should be an easy grade. It was in one of those giant lecture rooms that sat 300 people in theatre style seating. One day, I was sitting in class. My mind started to wander, and I started looking around. Suddenly, I saw it there. It was my watch. It was on the wrist of a kid sitting directly in front of me, a couple rows down. My heart was beating like crazy. I knew it was mine because I could see the face and it had the same chip in the crystal. The conversation in my head began immediately, what should I do? Should I confront him after class or should I just let it go? I mean, after all, I replaced the watch anyway, he d probably deny that he found it and just tell me I was crazy. So I let it go, and honestly, I thought nothing of it again, nor did I see him again in class or on campus until my junior year. By then, I was deep into coursework for my major, which was technical journalism, and wouldn t you know it, on the first day in one of my classes there, he was sitting one row over with my watch on. I could see it much better now, and it was definitely my watch, but again, I figured I d just let it go, which I did. That was the only other class Jeff and I had during the rest of our time at CSU. But our paths would cross again professionally.  A few years later, I graduated and took a job at WTVT, a television station in Tampa. I d been working there for about a year or so as a newscast producer. One of the managers came up to me one day, and said, “Hey, we just hired someone to work on the assignment desk who went to your college.” I said, “No kidding. What s their name?” Sure as shit, it was Jeff, the guy who had my watch. So fast forward a few months, Jeff shows up and is working the assignment desk.  One evening, it was quiet. I was busy putting a show together and Jeff came walking by. He stopped, stood next to me, and said, “Hey, I m going to the break room. Would you like me to get you anything staring intently at my computer?” I said, “No thanks.” Then Jeff said it and it stunned me. Noticing the watch in my left hand, he said, “Hey, I have a watch just like that.” It was like the world and time slowed. At that moment, what I had known all along was right in my face and standing next to me.  This time, I was not going to let the opportunity go by. I stopped what I was doing, I turned, I faced him and smiled and said, “I know you do Jeff, and I know exactly where you got it.” The utter shock that came over his face was priceless. “You found it on top of a video game in the basement of Westfall Hall.” There was silence. Then he said, “How do you know that?” I looked him dead in the eye and said, “Because it s my watch.” I proceeded to tell him the story of how it ended up on top of the video game and how I d seen him wearing it in class, but decided not to make a big deal about it because I had bought a replacement. Again, he was speechless.  He explained that he had asked the RAs at the desk if anyone had reported losing a watch and they said no, so he kept it. He told me how it had travelled with him around the world after he left school and into the beginning of his professional life. We both had a good laugh about it. I told him, “No hard feelings,” but it did make for a great story. A couple of weeks later, we wound up working together again. One night, he walked up to me and said, “Here, this is yours.” In his hand, my watch. He said, after hearing my story, he felt so guilty that he had to give it back to me.  While this story took literally years to come to an end, it reminded me of one thing. People are inherently good to this day. I still have both watches and along with them, the greatest lost and found story ever.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What’s the most annoying thing people do in public? Links for this episode: Meredith hates Axe cologne: https://www.amazon.com/AXE-Fragrance-Collection-Premium-Deodorant/dp/B0CTB125V1/ref=sr_1_6 Life Kit podcast episode about nail care: https://www.npr.org/2026/02/12/nx-s1-5711411/dont-mess-with-your-cuticles-and-other-nail-advice Neti Pot: https://www.amazon.com/SinuCleanse-Relieves-Congestion-Allergies-All-Natural/dp/B000TFR6MG/ref=sr_1_1?th=1 Fenty Beauty Lip Balm: https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Kissr-Luscious-Lip-Balm/dp/B09CPC591V/ref=sr_1_6?th=1 Use your digital ID in Apple Wallet: https://support.apple.com/en-us/123719 Meredith’s podcast is The Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT

Have you ever seen pictures or video of a hoarder house, and just wondered, what is going on? I mean, everyone has a different tolerance level for clutter. But hoarding is not just an issue of having a messy living environment. It’s actually classified as a distinct mental illness. The American Psychiatric Association says hoarding is characterized by a persistent, intense inability to discard possessions – leading to significant clutter, distress, and impairment in daily living. My guest for this episode is one of my favorite people – my friend Margy. We’ve known each other for years through the podcast industry, and she actually told this story originally here on What Was That Like back in 2022. Lots of things have happened with Margy since then, so stick around til the end for an update from her. Margy was an adult when her dad died. She came back home and saw the job that had to be done, and she channeled her grief into energy. And what seemed like an impossible challenge didn’t defeat her – rather, it made her unstoppable. Alex, Margy and Ozzy Margy’s company: Brainbased.com Get a free 2-week trial of the membership site for nervous system healing: FreeNeuroTrial.com Want podcast recommendations? Subscribe (free) to https://podcastthenewsletter.substack.com/ Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/250 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): Today’s episode has a content warning for discussion of suicide. Have you ever seen pictures or video of a hoarder house, and just wondered, what is going on? I mean, everyone has a different tolerance level for clutter. But hoarding is not just an issue of having a messy living environment. It’s actually classified as a distinct mental illness. The American Psychiatric Association says hoarding is characterized by a persistent, intense inability to discard possessions – leading to significant clutter, distress, and impairment in daily living. My guest for this episode is one of my favorite people – my friend Margy. We’ve known each other for years through the podcast industry, and she actually told this story originally here on What Was That Like back in 2022. Lots of things have happened with Margy since then, so stick around til the end for an update from her. Margy was an adult when her dad died. She came back home and saw the job that had to be done, and she channeled her grief into energy. And what seemed like an impossible challenge didn’t defeat her – rather, it made her unstoppable. Scott  Have you ever caught yourself deciding to keep something rather than throw it away, and thought, “Oh, wow. I m becoming a hoarder”? Margy  Yes, all the time. It s like one of those things that I think about so much in my life. Many of the things I do in my life are, like, the opposite of what my parents did, which I think is true for a lot of people, after having learned so much about hoarding and realizing that that s what I was experiencing in my home growing up. One of the pieces of research on hoarding is that it gets worse as you age. So, for someone who is really a severe hoarder at 70, it was probably much lighter than that at 30 or 40. I hope I haven t made your listeners too paranoid, but yes. I always think of what s this going to look like in 30 years. Scott  That s definitely something to think about. Well, that s what you need to do. Give a little bit of background on this and what kind of led up to it. You were living in Taiwan for a couple of years as an English teacher, but you previously lived in the US. What made you decide to go and live abroad? Margy  I fell in love with travel when I was in my junior year of college because I grew up in Rhode Island, I went to college in Rhode Island, and I just stayed in Rhode Island. I think most of my life was very stagnant up until this turning point that we re going to talk about I felt stuck. I felt like a victim of it. I was one of those people who was like, “The decision was no decision.” Like, I just kept defaulting into these situations and then kind of mentally complaining about them. There were these moments where I would feel an impulse to actually do something that was different, that would, sort of, break the script, and studying abroad was one of those things. After dragging through college not wanting to be there and just not really participating I don t think college is as valuable as most people think it is, but my attitude did not help. After all of that dragging, I heard about studying abroad and I was like, “I want to do this. I want to live in Italy. It ll be so great.” I was an art and Latin major. So, I was like, “This is a great opportunity to become a better painter.” At that point, I wanted to be a professional artist, a professional oil painter, so I was like, “This will be great!” It was just, sort of, a different moment like, I just suddenly switched it up. That s what I really love about travel it has the ability to shake things up.  I think when you feel stuck or you get into this routine, even if it s a good routine, you would be a different person from being able to go somewhere far away for a little bit. You re more yourself. You re more present. You re discovering things for the first time when you re out of your routine. I think you realize how much your routine kind of starts to control you, how much more there is to you, and how much more free you actually are. That s why I love to travel. Because I had fallen in love with that feeling in my junior year of college, especially living somewhere where I hadn t even visited before, I wanted to do that again. I wanted to move somewhere that I had never even visited. Then, I went down this rabbit hole of teaching English. I was looking at South America. I was looking at Asia. I narrowed it down because I learned that you can make a lot more money in Asia. You can save a lot more money than you can in South America, at least, at that time. So, that s how I picked Asia. Then, I knew nothing about Taiwan. I had just been researching the best countries to teach English and it came down to Korea and Taiwan. I was planning to go to Korea. I got the background check and all the stuff that they require. Then, I read something online and I was like, “I think I want to go to Taiwan.” So, it pivoted and I ended up going to Taiwan. Scott  Then, fast forward 2 years, you were miserable. What happened that caused all that to change? Margy  I mean, my misery wasn t because of Taiwan I love Taiwan! But everywhere you go, you take yourself with you. I think, when you re somewhere short term, you really do experience things as new and, like, you re this different and more open person. Once you live somewhere, no matter how exotic or cool it is, you get into a new routine. So, that s kind of what happened to me in Taiwan. People were like, “Oh, it s so cool that you live in Taiwan.”  It is cool, but it s also kind of the same when you go to work or to the grocery, although it s really different. It wasn t Taiwan s fault, although it s swelteringly hot, and I didn t like that. It wasn t because of Taiwan it was really because of my mindset. This was a mindset that I had, I think, kind of my whole life of really just kind of depressed, anxious, neurotic, negative, and one of those people who s, like, always expecting things to go wrong. When something good happens, it’s like, “What s the catch?” or “When is this going to get worse?” Again, a pessimistic mindset. Scott  When we talk about what changed, it s so difficult to lose a parent even from natural causes. Had you ever considered that your dad might be suicidal? Were there any signs? Margy  No, not at all. It s like one of those things that you look at and you re like, “Should I have known based on this stuff” I mean, he was on antidepressants. Like, who isn t? I mean, I m not on antidepressants, but a lot of people are on them but it doesn t mean they re suicidal. Honestly, if you had asked me, “Who in the family is going to kill themselves?”, he would have been my last guess. Sorry, mom, if you re listening. He was just like this rock for the family. When we were both melting down, he was just calm, cool, and collected, breaking the tension with a joke, and making sure everyone got where they needed to be on time. He was like the rock of the family. Anytime anything happened, I d be like, “Dad, help me”. So, no, I didn t see the signs at all. I knew he was kind of quirky. Nobody, even his psychiatrist was, like, shocked. Everybody was totally blindsided. From talking to other survivors, that s more common than people think. There are people who die by suicide, who had attempted, and stuff like that, and that doesn t make it easier. He was one of those people that really was, like, totally out of left field. When I found out that he had died, I was like, “Oh, my God. Did he have a heart attack or something like that?” So, no. I had no idea. I still couldn’t believe that happened. Scott  Can you just describe the experience of getting that news? Margy  Yes, I can. I left school in the evening. I was teaching a few different classes. One of them was this really rowdy class of first-grade boys. They were just kind of rough because they are boys. One of them was joking about, like, killing a cat or something he wouldn t have actually done it. It was just, like, being crazy. I was like, “Actually, that s not funny. Let s talk about compassion towards animals.” Then, I went to the Taiwan SPCA, where I was fostering cats through, and I said, “Hey, can I get you all in here to talk to these kids about being kind to animals so that we can have an impact here?” They ll think differently because they do think a little bit differently in Taiwan about animals than they do in the US. I raised money from all the teachers who wanted them and paid them to come to speak. They brought a dog and it was great. The kids prepared questions. They were really engaged. They were really interested in the dog. As I was walking out of the school to go catch my bus, I was feeling amazing because I just pulled off the thing that had been months in the making. I was like, “Wow, I really had an impact here. These kids are going to be more compassionate towards animals. That was amazing!”  Then, I looked at my phone it wasn t a smartphone because it s really hard to get a smartphone in Asia as an immigrant. It was like a really old-school regular phone. I had a text from my partner at that time that just said, “I love you” with no punctuation which is, like, one of those things that are not a great sign if you know someone who always uses exclamation points and stuff like that. So, I was like, “That s weird. I hope something didn t happen.” Then, I had the thought of this is terrible, but this is what I actually thought “Well, I hope that, if something did happen, it happens to his family and not to mine”. This thought happened in a second, and then it was gone. I didn t ruminate on it or anything. It was just there and then it was gone. Then, I got on the bus and reflected on the day and all this stuff. I really didn t think anything was going on. So, I got off the bus. I walked to our apartment. I went up. We re on like the ninth floor. I went up the elevator. I opened the door. I ve got, like, my big bag with my books and stuff. I walked in. It was a tiny like, the smallest studio apartment you ve ever seen in your life. I walked in with my bag and walked across to hang up my bag. I looked at my partner he was someone who has like an olive skin tone. He was white he looked like a ghost. I’ve never seen him like that. When you see somebody that you know really well and they re just like that, I could feel it in my body. I could feel my cheeks tingling. I was starting to feel cold and clammy, and it happened so fast.  So, I hung up my bag I was in the closet where I kept my bag and I was like, “What s up?” He was like, “You need to call your mom”. My parents were still together. So, when people say, “Call your parents when your parents are together”, I was like, “Huh?” So, I was starting to panic. There were two things going on because I ve got this rising panic and I was starting to feel I can feel it now sick to my stomach. Then, there s also this part of me that s like, “Well, maybe it s not as bad as it could be.” I was trying to almost negotiate with reality. I was trying to get hints from him because I don t like surprises everybody knows this. I always demand information from people trying to do surprises for me. So, I was like, “What happened?” He was just like, “You just need to call your mom”. I was like, “How bad is this?” thinking that if it s not the worst-case scenario, there ll be some reassurance. If nobody s dead at that point, you ll say nobody s dead, but he didn t say that. I was like, “Okay…” But still, there s a big part of me that s like, “No way. No way. Is this happening to me?” I remember saying, “Is it the worst thing that could possibly happen?” He just said, “You need to call your mom.” So, I was like, “Oh, shit!”  So, I put my bag down. It was 5 AM in the US and he was saying, “Call your mom right now.” He s not saying anything to reassure me. It doesn t look good, but there s still an analytical part of my brain that s like, “Okay, he had an accident. He s in the hospital, but he s going to be fine. It s really serious, but he s going to be fine.” It s just like happening so fast. I remember walking across and it wasn t a lot of feet across because it was such a small apartment from my closet to this desk that was, like, a computer desk, a dining room table, and a catch-all of all the things. If you ve ever seen someone try and bring a horse somewhere the horse doesn t want to go, they re leaving it by the face and it s just, kind of, pulling back I felt that. That s what it felt like. I knew I was walking toward a totally different life and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no”, but there was this inevitability. I didn t want to get on Skype and find out because, once I found out what was going on, I knew there would be no going back. I was like, “No, I m not ready for whatever it is. Like, no.” I sat down at the computer. I called my mom. Of course, Skype was like “Beep boop beep”, which is not for the right mood.  Scott Right. It was very upbeat.  Margy Yeah, exactly. So, my hands were very, very cold at that point and my stomach was very tight. I felt this tingling sensation on my face. My nervous system was just kicking off. My mom answered on Skype. It was 5 AM her time. She s not a morning person. She s up. My mom has blue hair the color changes all the time, but it was blue at that time. It was clipped back. She had no makeup on. I can see that she s somewhere different the background is not our house. I was taking all this in very quickly without being super conscious of it. So, I was like, “Hey, Mom. What s going on?” Never one to mince words, she said, “Dad s dead. He killed himself.” Keep in mind that he was not a suicide risk in my mind. For someone like me who had been so neurotic and spent so much time ruminating on possible bad things that could happen, I had never even thought of this I thought of every unlikely bad scenario. So, I was sitting there with her. My hands started shaking really hard and violently, which is, like, how the nervous system goes into fight-or-flight. So, I was like, “What happened?!” She was like, “We don t know. They need to look into it. There were some propane cans, but we don t know what happened.” Then, it was this wild thing. I was shaking and freaking out, but I immediately go in to comfort her because there was the survival part of my brain that was like, “He s gone. Protect the one you ve got left.” Because I was very nervous. If he would do that, is she okay? So I was just like, “Everything s gonna be okay. We re gonna get through this together.” I just started reassuring, which was kind of surprising to me as a response.  The rest of the conversation is kind of a blur. She told me that she s staying at her friend, Caroline s house. We had a lot of pets at that point because I took a lot of stray animals home. So, they had my 2 cats plus some other pets. They had 5 cats and a dog in the house. She was staying with her friends. She said that people are going to the house and helping us to take care of the pets. Then, we got off the phone. I picked up my phone. I called my boss who was, like, a good friend of mine at my teaching job, and I said, “Hey, Michelle. I m not going to come to work anymore because my dad is dead. He killed himself.” She was just like, “Oh my God! Are you okay?” I was just like, “I don t know. Okay, bye.” She was just like, “What?!” So, it was crazy. Then, I felt like I was going to throw up. The stomach pain from that type of trauma was, like, a big part of it for me. Scott  So you knew immediately that you had to go home. Margy  Yes. I had been planning. I was coming to the end of my second year teaching anyway. This was January. He died on January 12. I found out on January 13, which was insane having no idea that someone s dead and just going about your normal life. But I was planning to come home in a few months. My teaching contract was about to end, maybe, in a month. Then, I was planning to spend 2 months backpacking around Asia. Then, I was going to come home and find a real job. At first, it was like, “What do we even do?” because I had to go home, but it was this big international move and you were really not in a headspace to be making big plans like that when you re grieving at that early stage, but you also usually don t have a choice if you re an adult. They cremated him. We did a viewing that I was Skyped into, which was absolutely insane. Then, I decided because I had been planning this backpacking trip for 2 months to modify it to be one month. So, I would still go and travel around Asia for a month, and then come home. I don t know why I made that decision. I just felt like it was something that I needed to do. Scott   Wow, I didn t know that there was a month in between before you actually got back home. Margy  Yes. There was more than that because I needed to like do some stuff in Taiwan with my taxes. I had to close out all my bank accounts there was just all this logistic stuff and then plan this trip. Then, we went traveling for a month to Vietnam, the Philippines, and Thailand, which was a bizarre trip. I spent a lot of money. I was like, “Why did I do this?” I just felt that I just didn t feel ready to go home. Everything was handled. The pets were all set for a month. There was nothing really urgent. So, I knew that once I went home, I would be dealing with this and there would be no going back, and I think I wanted to put that off a little bit. Scott  When you tell the story, do you ever get the impression that people are thinking, “Okay, her dad died. Then, she went on vacation and then went home. That just seems kind of odd.” I mean, do you have to explain to people what the reasoning was behind that or, maybe, they don t even ask? Margy  I mean, no one has ever asked that. I feel like they must be thinking it because I would be thinking it. I don t have an explanation. I know it s weird, but the whole situation was weird. Before he died, I had been planning to come home and clean the hoarded house. I was like, “I m finally going to deal with this. They re gonna get on board. We re doing this. They were not happy to hear that and they just kept being, like, “Whatever.” I was like, “Nope, we re gonna do it. It s gonna be great.” I was researching cleaners who are in Rhode Island to help. I was writing manifestation, affirmations, and gratitude, literally, every day, like a psychopath “I love my parents. Beautiful home. I had lost my mind. Of course, I m so grateful for my dad s health and happiness.” It was just like this manic gratitude practice. So, when he died, we had these plans to go on this trip and, then, clean the house. I was like, “Okay, I m gonna do this. I m gonna go on this trip for a month. Then, I m going to come home and I m going to clean the house.” I was helping to plan the memorial service virtually from the Philippines via email with the funeral director and my mom. It was bizarre. Then, I got home. By the time I got home, it was March. He died on January 12. I got home at the beginning of March. It was not good. It was the winter of 2015. For anyone who lives in New England, it was memorably brutal. There were 4 feet of snow on the ground, which is not typical. It was brutally cold. People said that it had been one of the most depressing winters for a while, which I was like, “I wonder if that contributed.” So, I got home. That s when the journey of cleaning the house, working with my mom, and trying to rebuild began  Scott  So, once you were done backpacking, you thought, “Okay, now is the time to go home.” and you got on that plane ride. How long was the plane ride? Margy  It was longer than it should have been. I flew from Taiwan to Korea, which is quick. Then, I flew from Korea to Dallas, which I think was about 11 hours. Dallas got a snowstorm. In Dallas, it was one inch of snow, but they weren t equipped to deal with one inch of snow, so the entire city and all the airports were shut down. So, I got stuck in Dallas for 48 hours I mean, a long time. I couldn t get my bags back because they had already checked and moved on. So, I was stuck in the Dallas airport with no toothbrush, no change of clothes nothing and going through the worst experience of my life, sleeping on the ground, eating vending machine food, calling my mom, crying, like, “Mom, what do I do? How do I get home?” She was just like, “I don t know.” It was just crazy. Scott  Then, the flight from Dallas to Rhode Island is probably what? Five hours, maybe? Margy  We couldn t get a flight to Rhode Island. It was one of those situations where you just keep booking and booking and booking flights and they just keep canceling. We were trying different airlines. We were trying different airports. We eventually got a flight to New York because my partner s family lived on Long Island. So, we flew to New York City because it was the only flight that we could get after 2 days in the airport. It was from a different airport in Dallas, so we drove to a new airport without any bags, and then took this flight from that other airport to New York, because that was the only thing that we could do to get close to home. Then, we were with his family for a day or two. Then, we took the ferry to New London and, then, drove from New London to Providence. Scott  That kind of sounds like “Planes, Trains and Automobiles” the international version.  Margy   Yeah. It would have been a stressful travel experience even if my dad hadn t just killed himself. With that in the mix, it was one of those things where I was, like, “This cannot be happening. There s no way that this many bad things could happen in a row. This seems made up.” I kept feeling like, “Am I on a movie or TV show? This cannot be real.” Scott  Somebody s gonna jump out and say you ve been punked…  Margy I really thought that! Scott So when you had all these hours including the first 11-hour flight to get to Dallas just to sit and think, what are the thoughts that were going through your head about what you re about to get into? Margy  I mean, some of it is a blank in those early days. After a few months later, new realizations just keep hitting you. I remember this moment on the flight I don t know if it was the flight to Korea or the flight from Korea to Dallas I was just sitting there holding my passport because we just had to show them. I just mindlessly opened my passport and my dad was my emergency contact. I was like, “What do you do if your emergency contact is dead?” All those little things that you don t think of at first just keep hitting you, like, “Oh my god.” Scott  Well, let s talk about when you finally got back home. First of all, was this the house you grew up in? Margy  Yes, basically, we moved into that house when I was in fourth grade. It is a 6-bedroom Dutch colonial, built in 1900. It s a big house. Scott  I have to ask you this. As far as the hoarding, was it mostly your dad, or was your mom also a hoarder? I mean, hoarding, from what I know, is a mental health disorder. So, it would seem kind of odd that they would both have it. Margy  Hoarding is a spectrum. I believe in all things, so I also believe that there are a lot of different types of hoarders. I mean, the research on this is emerging, but hoarding can result from a lot of different things. For some people associated with people who have types of OCD, there s a lot of correlation between trauma and hoarding. So, that is not necessarily a chemical issue. It s that all this unprocessed trauma can lead to this disorder or this attachment. They ve also done the research, showing that people who are hoarders or who have a tendency towards hoarding which a lot of us probably have but don t act upon it because we re feeling good and we re taking care of ourselves. But they did experiments where they scan people s brains, and the part of the brain that s associated with really strong emotion lit up over minor objects, whereas that didn t happen for someone who s more average or average in that area. So, they did experiments where they had junk mail. They let the people sort the mail and say, “This is junk.” and then they shredded the junk mail in front of them and scan their brains. There really was this heightened emotion from people who were hoarders. So, there s a lot of complexity to hoarding. I took a DNA test and there s a genetic marker that I have, that possibly shows difficulty parting with objects that are no longer needed. There s like this complex web of things that create this situation, I believe. I think trauma plays a big part in whether or not that tendency gets flipped on or not, which I believe that both my parents, most people who have gone through trauma, and their generation were not as vocal about it. As you know, they didn t understand it as much. So, it wasn t the type of thing that you would try to get help for you would walk it off.  So were they both hoarders? Yes. Like, it wasn t always so bad. My mom is very, very ATD. So, she has a lot of trouble with organization and spaces and stuff like that. My dad s hoarding was more of indifference. It seemed like it just lacked care he just didn t care about the mess. He sort of lived like 19-year-olds. There were just trash and bottles. If he couldn’t find something, he ll just buy a new one. It was less attachment to the objects and more of an indifference that I think stemmed from a lot of unprocessed trauma, depression, not caring about himself, and feeling overwhelmed. Whereas my mom, I think, has more of the typical attachment to objects, being overwhelmed and trying to understand how to organize things. So, there is a spectrum. The combination of the 2 of them together with the pets with them, both working long hours, not having a lot of time, and not having learned the skills to manage a house, which is a skill. I think people think that it s a thing that you should just know how to do, but it s not. So, that was sort of the perfect storm. So, I would say that s a very long way of saying, “It s both of them.” but it s complicated. Scott  Can you describe walking through the door the first time when you came back home? Margy  Yes, it was freezing cold. I got out of the car. My mom was, frantically, trying to shovel the steps. I walked over to her and she didn t even look up or acknowledge me. She was just frantically shoveling I said this with no judgment because she had just been through insane trauma. I was like, “I haven t seen you in two years.” I was like, “Hey mom.” She was like, “Hey” and just really focused and stressed about the stairs. I was like, “Okay, this is going well.” I walked in the door. I unstrapped my bag and dug into my arm but, of course, there was nowhere to put my stuff down. It was freezing in the house. There was stuff everywhere. There were no clear surfaces. The smell of cat urine is so strong that it burns even in cold weather. This was, I think, the beginning of March. It was, like, a really long winter. It was still freezing. Scott  So you were planning to stay in that house, right? While you were doing the cleaning, was there even a place for you to stay? Was there a room that had space for you? Margy Not really. I used to live on the third floor, which was a really nice setup. Since fourth grade, I had that space, which my wife said, “It’s why I m so spoiled now.” There are 2 bedrooms and a full bathroom up there that was, like, my space for me and my cats, but my dad had taken over that space while I had been away, so it had been trashed. There was just one twin bed that was like a really hard mattress. My partner and I were both there, and it was not in a condition that you could stay up there. So, there was this spare room. The whole house was just like spare rooms that were full of stuff because it s like a big house full of bedrooms that are unused. So, the rooms are just labeled by the color that the room is, not by the function, because there is no function. So, there s a room called the blue room that had a big desk in it, had all these papers, clothes and piles of stuff. My mom had bought a new mattress which to her credit, thank you. There was a new memory foam full mattress in the middle of this room that was full of junk, but there was nowhere for my stuff. So, we just slept on the mattress on the floor in this random room full of stuff. I just remember waking up in the morning when it was laid out, realizing that a cat had either thrown up or pooped right next to the bed, and I was just like, “Great. This is lovely.” Scott  Well, I guess that helped you decide which room to clean first, right? Margy  Yes. Cleaning was such a process it was such a phased process because, first, we had to get it to the point where I could, like, live. Then, when my partner went back to be with his family in Long Island for a little bit, I would just sleep in my mom s bed with her because it took a long time to carve out a space for me. Scott  Can you just describe what was in all these piles of stuff? What was it? Margy  Nothing really noteworthy. It wasn t like tons of newspapers or anything it was just stuff like clothes, fans, papers, extension cords, and all the objects that you would expect to see in a house, but at a huge volume and everywhere. The thing that made it really challenging was the pets because, when you have pets, you can t have piles of stuff, especially if you have cats. I love cats but, if you have a cat, you probably know that cats love to pee on piles of clothes. It s like a rare delicacy for them, so they can t help but treat themselves. When you don t clean up a pet’s mess right away, they will continue to mark the rugs, the clothes, the furniture under the clothes. There were piles of shirts and New Balance sneakers of my dad s in a closet. It had been peed on so many times that the rubber on the shoe had melted to the hardwood. I was like, “How does this chemically even happen? There are so many layers, right?” Because when you get the stuff off, the thing under this stuff is so damaged, so it was just layers and layers and layers. Scott  You seem like a really organized person. You would look at a project and plan it out like this is how we re going to do it. Did you come up with some kind of a plan to tackle this? I mean, it seems overwhelming to start with. Margy  Yes, I am pretty organized. I like to just tackle things. I had spent 2 years in Taiwan thinking about how I was going to tackle it and researching, which was helpful. When I got there, it was really overwhelming. Because my dad had just died, I might have given up with enough pushback if my dad had still been there and just be like, “Okay, it s your life.” Knowing that I was going to leave my mom to live in this house alone as a widow to rebuild her life, I was like, “I can t. This has to be dealt with.” So, if I had felt like I had any choice, I probably wouldn t have taken this on or I would have quit, but that feeling of not having a choice was helpful. This was such a great experience. I mean, it was the worst experience but, in terms of business, this was the best experience, because I came into a seemingly impossible situation with none of the skills, experience, or team that I needed to deal with it, and I had to just figure it out. Everybody told me at the beginning that I couldn t do it. They were like, “No way! It s too much! Don t take this on. You ve been through enough. There s no way you can do this.” I had cleaners come in who told me that the house was going to be condemned, that I should just give up. They told me there s no way I could even do anything with the house.” I mean, I would cry like I was affected by it. But then, I d keep Googling and find somebody else.  So, the first thing I did was try to find someone to help me, which I think is true for business, too is the smartest thing you can possibly do: Find someone who does the seemingly impossible thing all the time and knows how to do it. So, I was looking for an expert in cleaning and hoarding. After talking to some truly horrible people who just said terrible things to me or about the house and just made me feel hopeless, I found this woman, Nicole. This is what she does. She had this kind of crappy Comic Sans font-like website, but when I read her website, she talked about why she does this and why she feels compelled and moved to help hoarders. I was so touched because she was the first person who approached it with compassion. I had her and her husband come over. They looked around the whole house. After so many people telling me, “Give up. The house is gonna get condemned. You can t do it.”, Nicole looked at me I love this woman and she said, “You re so strong. You ve been through so much. I m so sorry for your loss.” which no one had said. Then, about the house, she was like, “This isn t even that bad. We can totally do this.” So, I was like, “Finally…” So, that first massive breakthrough came from finding the right person. Scott  How did your mom handle that process? I mean, was she able to help or was it just all you? Or did she kind of say, “No, we gotta keep that one thing.”? How involved was she? Margy  Yeah, my mom is scary. Mom, if you re listening, I say that with love. She was a federal prosecutor. She was the first female United States Attorney in the state of Rhode Island. She s a scary lady. So I say that with respect she was not on board, and it added a big layer of complication to be working with someone who wanted to block me at first, and it wasn t her fault. If you come into anybody s life and you re like, “We re going to change everything.”, no matter who they are, they re probably going to be, like, “Get lost!” On top of that, they ve just lost their husband to suicide and you re like, “Hey, I’m gonna need you to go through this box real quick.” She was like, “Get away from me!” So, she was not happy, but there was a part of her I could tell that was more willing to work with me than ever before. I don t know if her resistance had been broken down by the loss. I suspect it had more to do with the fact that she felt really sorry for me because me and my dad were really close. So, the fact that I had lost my dad to suicide, I think, made her more willing to work with me out of pity, which is fine I ll take whatever I could get to get the job done.  So, she was really resistant at first and it was just fights after fights. In the beginning, it took her days to go through a single box. She would be mad at me, being really grumpy and negative, and kind of make mean comments. I was just like, “This is gonna be a long time. If it takes this many days to go through one box, this does not look good.” But bringing in Nicole was really helpful. Having a third-party come in is really helpful to get people on better behavior. So, there are things that if your family tells you, you re like, “Shut up”, but if a really compassionate expert comes in, you re kind of, like, “Okay.” They re saying the same thing, but it hits differently because it s a different relationship context. So, Nicole was really helpful in getting my mom to cooperate. Then, we did hit this point it was like pushing a boulder up a hill for a long time, like months of, basically, fighting against my mom when she was trying to block this. Then, we hit our stride. We started hitting this momentum. She started getting pretty good at going through stuff. She started working with me. She just gave in to the inevitability that this was going to happen and I wasn t going to back down. I don’t know if the momentum just made it easier or both, but we did get better and better at working together once we got that initial momentum. Scott  How long did it take? You just use the term “month” How long did this whole process take? Margy  It took exactly 5 months because I moved to Colorado on the day that we finished. It took exactly 5 months. I took one single day off. I m not a grinder I don t work like that. I m not one of those entrepreneurs who work at 5 AM and am the last person who stopped working. No, I am not a grinder I don t work well that way but this project required that to hit this deadline. So, every single day, I woke up at, like, 5 AM and I would start cleaning around like 6 or 7. I would finish around 8. I would fall into bed, make my to-do list for the next day, go to sleep, and wake up again, for five months, every single day. It was amazing that we were able to get it done in 5 months. Scott  It must have been difficult to do that every day, not just because of the hard work involved and such an overwhelming project, but you were also still mourning your dad at that time. That must have been a mental strain. Margy  Yeah. Well, it was and it wasn t. I think that having a project like that helped me to channel a lot of energy into something. I think it somewhat served as a distraction. Also, I think, because it was a suicide, because I was out of the country, not only did I not get to see him before he died like you would if he died from cancer or something, I didn t see his body afterward. When I saw him, I hugged him goodbye at Logan Airport in 2013. The next time I saw him, he was in an urn. So, there s not a lot of closure there. So being able to physically process his stuff, go through and touch every single thing that he owned, and make a decision about throwing it out or donating it was really powerful. Honestly, what I felt most was I felt that it was an honor. My dad was an amazing person. He was the funniest person I ve ever met. I m not just saying that because he was my dad. He was really funny. He was so smart. He loved animals. He was just such a wonderful person. It was an honor to be able to do that for him. Scott  Can you talk about the moth infestation? Margy  Yes. This was one of many things that happened where I was like, “This cannot be real. This is insane!” I was going through room by room and we re doing pretty well. I opened the door of the orange room like I said, they re named after colors because they have no function. I just kind of looked around, took stock of the different piles, and started making a game plan for the room in my head. Then, I was like, “Oh, a little moth. Isn t that nice?” I saw a single little one of those small moths fluttering and I was like, “Oh, so beautiful!” Then, I saw another moth and I was like, “Huh…” Then, I realized that there are just hundreds of moths in the room and I was like, “This is a horror movie.” If I look closely, they re eating the drapes. They re swarmed over this one part of the carpet eating it. They’re in all the boxes. I was just like, “Oh my God.” So, I closed the door. I was horrified, but I was also laughing because my dad had this really irreverent sense of humor. I just thought of all the people I ve heard who said, “My loved one visited me as a beautiful butterfly.” Of course, my dad visited me as a swarm of moths because he thought it would be so funny. So, I was like, “Okay, well, this is why exterminators exist.” So, I started calling exterminators and they didn t believe me. They were like, “No, that doesn t happen. That doesn t happen with that type of moth.” I was like, “I m telling you, it s happening.” Every exterminator I called wouldn t help me. They were like, “Sorry, we don t do that” which, again, was one of those things where I was like, “How is this possible?” Scott  It seems like it should be an easy job. You ve one of those cans where you would bomb the room with some fumes or something and just kill all of them. Margy  Right. I was like, “Why can t an exterminator do this for me?” There is such a thing going to professionals and being like, “This is what s going on” and them being, like, “No way.” and I m like, “Yeah, of course.” So, I eventually went that DIY route of setting off a bug bomb, but the house is full of pets, so there was a lot of logistics because I had to find a place for all the cats and stuff to safely be while I did the bug bomb, and then enough time passed. There were many more steps than I thought it would be, but we did the bug bomb and everybody’s safe. The pets were in their locations. I cleaned up all the little moth corpses. That room was full of cedar there was just cedar in random places because I just can t take a chance again. So, we did overcome the moth infestation, but it was just one of those things that you would wake up thinking that you re tackling one problem, and then you end up spending days on this thing that you re like, “This shouldn t even be happening…” Scott  Can you just describe seeing the truck haul away that last bit of stuff? Margy  Yeah, when the truck took the dumpster, it was crazy. That was, like, either the day I was moving or the day before like, it was at the very end. It was incredible. First of all, I had become attached to the dumpster because throwing things in a dumpster is really fun. I was, like, dumpster-crazy I lost myself at that dumpster. Then, I got really crazy about people not throwing their garbage in it. If I saw them, I d go outside and be like, “That s not your dumpster!” I really lost myself. I had a very small world. Scott  Dumpster territoriality that s kind of odd.  Margy  I know. My mom still calls me the dumpster queen because I was obsessed with this dumpster. Yeah, the truck came and covered it over. Then, they drove it away. I guess I couldn t believe the amount of stuff that was gone. When you re coming to the end of a project like that, you are so in it in the day-to-day that you don t pick your head up that often. So, to finally pick my head up and have it be done People said the house looked like it was staged for sale empty. I had managed to get all the cat urine smell out of the hardwood floors with a variety of aggressive home remedies. It was incredible. Scott  This essentially was an impossible project that you took on, and you did it you won! How did that change your outlook on your life? Margy  The change wasn t immediate, but it totally changed my understanding of my own abilities and my understanding of what s possible. The interesting thing is, I feel, in books and movies, this huge breakthrough happens and then that s it. Like, things are great, but that s not really what life is like because it s just this never-ending thing. So, there was this huge high and victory with finishing the house. Then, immediately, we started driving with the U-Haul and my cats to live in Colorado. I probably should have known that was a bad idea to go somewhere where I had no job, no friends, and no support right after losing my dad, but I was just like, “Well, we gotta keep going, go with the plan, and carry on.” He had gotten into a Ph.D. program, so I was like, “Well, we re going.” As I left and drove to Colorado, the grief and pain that I had been avoiding/channeling into the house project started to really catch up with me. So, when we got to Colorado, things went downhill very, very fast with my mental health, with how my relationship was going it was very bad. I hit a series of rock bottoms. Then, it was through coming back from that, that I reached my full capability as a leader, along with the lessons I had gotten from the house clean. I really had to go down further to go up. Scott  Since then, you ve done some pretty amazing stuff. I know that you started as a $15 an hour employee at the company that you re with now. Now, you re the CEO of that company. We could probably talk for an hour just about that process, but can you kind of summarize how did that happen? Margy  Yeah. So much of how that became possible was because of what I got out of that house clean the attitude and the things I learned about tackling seemingly messy, impossible problems, which is so true for business, especially early business. Then, there’s also the personal growth work I had to do. I had to eventually get into trauma processing therapy process losing my dad and process all this stuff that I hadn t processed before. I got kicked up by that loss, so I did so much work on myself as a person. Then, also, the combination of that and taking on this huge project and succeeded. When I came into this situation, I knew I wanted to work from home, and I wanted to start my own business. I was trying to start a business in the fitness industry, but it was not going well. I really thought that what I wanted was a fitness business. So, I had been connected with just my business partner now because we worked together. We actually didn t know each other that well. We were just vaguely connected on social media. We reconnected because she adopted my dad s cat when he died. So, she went from this person who had been a colleague who I didn t know very well to someone who was really on my radar because, now, she s sending me pictures of kittens and that was such a bonding moment. So, all these things came together.  I wanted a remote job. I saw on Facebook that she was hiring part-time contractors at $15 an hour to book people on podcasts. I truly had no idea how I would financially survive with a contractor position with no benefits, paying self-employment tax, while earning $15 an hour, but I wanted to work from home. I was tired of driving in the snow in Colorado with no 4-wheel drive. So, I interviewed. I got that. Then, things started happening very quickly. From there, I started listening to my clients’ podcasts, really getting to know them, listening to their interviews, and I was like, “Oh, I want to be a business owner. This is amazing. I ve already been trying to start a business. As I got to see all these success stories in different industries, I started learning and Googling, “What is SEO? What is content marketing?” and all these things I was hearing in the episodes this was 2016. This wasn t that long ago. I didn t know any of these terms.  So, actually, working with Interview Connections is going great. The rest of my life was not great. I don t really have close friends in Colorado. I didn t want to leave the house. I just wanted to be home with my cats. My relationship was going very badly, so we ended up breaking up almost exactly a year after arriving in Colorado. I left Colorado to go home and live with my mom, which felt like a new rock bottom, but there was space for me because I had just cleaned out the house. So, that was a silver lining. I was 27 and I m going back to live with my mom. I started going to therapy and taking therapy incredibly seriously.  At the end of 2016, I was a contractor that whole year and I had just started taking on leadership responsibilities like looking for ways to improve the company and my client experience because I really wanted to do a good job. She asked me to become the first employee of the business at the end of 2016. So, I said yes. I went home. I cried my eyes out to my best friend because I don t want to be an employee. I want to be a business owner. But she was like, “This is gonna be a great opportunity.” So, I showed up in January 2017 as the first employee. Then, we have the rest of the team as contractors besides me and Jess. Almost immediately, we just heard an HR person speaking about contractors versus employees, and was like, “We need employees, not contractors for what we re doing.” So, in a very short time, we got rid of all of our overtime contractors and hired local in-state Rhode Island employees, and I was in charge of this.  I had no experience. I was way over my head with this. I had just come out of this house clean, so it was like all of this stuff that kept coming up. I was like, “I ll figure it out. No problem.” because I had this new confidence that I wouldn t have had before, that I can basically figure anything out. So, it was a very steep learning curve mistakes were made but bringing that “We can do this. No problem.” attitude that I had developed, if anything hit us, I was like, “No worries, we can deal with it.” There was definitely crying in those moments, but I had processed so much in therapy that I was just, like, so resilient. Jess and I started a podcast, “Womensplaining”, that I wanted to start because I wanted a podcast where we could just talk about anything. We did talk about death on show two. We were partners on that project. We would work on it on Sundays.  Then, we started to talk about partnering for other businesses and potentially starting a media company. She knew that I really wanted to be a business owner. So, we were talking about all this stuff. Then, we started talking about potential equity in Interview Connections. So, throughout the end of my first full year as an employee, I was in these kinds of negotiations. I asked for 50% equity and, then, there was, like, a counter offer. I was like, “Look, I m not going to take less than 50% equity. I m not being a diva, but I want to have equal risk and equal reward, and I don t want to feel like ‘anyone s my boss’. If there s uneven equity, it s going to feel like there s an imbalance of power.” So, it wasn t a negotiation tactic. I just stuck to my guns. I had the vision to bring the business from $400,000 to $1,000,000 in a year. I was like, “We can do this. Here s how. Here are all the things that we can do. We can do this.” and ended up getting the equity and was co-owner at the beginning of 2018. Scott  So your kind of optimism, maybe, was a little bit contagious with her, thinking, “Wow, this could be a really big forward step for the company.” Obviously, as I ve seen and a lot of people have seen what happened since then it has skyrocketed. One of the things that you talked about on your podcast was the stuff that you discovered that Malcolm Gladwell wrote about. Well, just explain that it s just fascinating to me. What did you find? Margy  Yeah, this was so fascinating to me too. So I started down this rabbit hole because I was looking to create content. I was working with a great coach, Jacqueline Nagel, who helps people with messaging and content. I was looking to create more content around my lived experience and was struggling to, sort of, explain what happened because I was, like, this kind of negative, miserable person. Then, my life fell apart and I lost my favorite person in the world. Then, I was so much more successful and happier. I wasn t really sure how to explain that. So, I did research as I was creating content and seeking to better understand this, and I started stumbling on the primary one being by Malcolm Gladwell these studies about the connection between grief and high performance. As soon as I saw it, I was like, “Yes, this is it!”  He coined the term “Eminent orphans” and did studies of these highly influential people like presidents and all this stuff, and found that these people who had been presidents who were super influential, who had more than one paragraph in the encyclopedia, had a much higher percentage of having lost a parent than you would find in the general population at that time, which I thought was really interesting. A lot of it is focused on people who lost their parents young. When my dad died, I was 26, so I wasn t, like, super young. Although I felt young, I think I was, sort of, floating around, not taking responsibility, and killing time by being an English teacher, but there were some older ones. I just found this correlation between loss and high achievement so interesting why is it that some people fall apart because of loss and, for some people, it seems to be a catalyst for this expansion? So, my interest in that is what led me down this rabbit hole of starting my podcast, “We Get It, Your Dad Died”, where I interview high performers and high achievers who have gone through a substantial loss. I talked to them about not just what happened with the loss usually, it s the death of someone very close to them but I also had some people talk about sexual assault and some other things. So, we talked about the loss. Then, they also shared about these really incredible unexpected gifts that they got out of this experience, that helped them have a much bigger impact and showed up in a more powerful way. Just hearing these stories has been so incredible and, really, in an anecdotal way, supports what I learned from Malcolm Gladwell about this connection between high performance and loss. Scott  Yeah. When I heard you talk about that, I never would have guessed that. Obviously, you have kind of lived that out. You and I are friends on Facebook. I subscribed to your podcast, so a lot of the content that you create, I consume. I have to say that you re honestly one of the most insightful people I know. You have a gift for figuring something out and then explaining it, and I m like, “Yeah, I can use that.” So I hope you keep doing that. Let s talk about your podcast. It s called, “We Get It, Your Dad Died”. When I first saw that title, I thought that was so odd. Where did that come from? Margy  Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for all that nice stuff you said. That means so much to me. I m so honored to hear that and happy. Yeah, “We Get It, Your Dad Died” is a weird title, and I think it had to be, sort of, weird for it to feel on-brand with me. My dad had a very irreverent sense of humor that he had passed on to me, so I came up with that title as a joke. It was not going to be the actual title. My business books people on podcasts. I am a client of my business, so I got out there on podcasts all the time. That s a big part of how my messaging and storytelling have evolved by getting interviewed on so many podcasts every single month. I just kept telling the same story, like, because it just kept coming up. Because the loss of my father is such a pivotal piece of my leadership and business journey, in some way, I ended up talking about it on every show. So, it just got to the point where it just felt like I was talking about it so much. So, I just made the joke to someone I was working with, like, “Let s just call it, ‘We Get It, Your Dad Died’.” Then, I was like, “I m gonna keep that.” I m always worried that guests are going to be super offended, especially if they lost their dad, but everyone s been very cool about it. It is a respectful show, but I like the irreverent title. Scott  It is. You can be respectful and still have some humor even awkward humor. I mean, a lot of times, if you go to a funeral, not everybody would be sad. Somebody would be telling a story about the person that died and everybody would laugh because something is funny. Margy  Yeah, there s a lot more comedy in death than I would have imagined like the aftermath of my dad dying. Those dark moments were so dark, but there were moments where we laughed so hard because there would be something that was so ridiculous, especially when you re in a dark place where there s so much tension, you just laugh that much harder. As I said, my dad was so funny. He was, like, the funniest person in the world. So, as sad as we were, and as hard as it was, there were a lot of moments where we would just lose our minds belly-laughing. Scott  How can people find your podcast? You do a blog as well. How can people find all that? How can they contact you? Give us all your contact stuff. Margy   Yes. My podcast, “We Get It, Your Dad Died” and my blog both live on my website, which is margywithahardg.com. Obviously, the show is on Spotify and iTunes, and it links out from the website there too. Then, if you want to just connect, if you heard something that you want to chat about or you have a shared experience, the best way to do that is probably to DM me on Instagram. My Instagram is @heymargy.  Margy Hi, Scott. I can t believe it s already been almost four years since we recorded our episode together. So much has changed since that time. Most importantly, I became a mom when I had my daughter, Ozzy, in November, 2024. I have also added three new rescue cats to our family, which as you ll remember from my story, cleaning up cat pee was a big part of my journey. Luckily, these cats are doing well. Everybody s behaving themselves, so that s good.  At the end of 2025, I exited my company, Interview Connections, the podcast booking agency that I was co-owner of and CEO for 8 years, which was a really big transition for me. I left so that I could pursue my dream of really helping people and being in the personal development and growth space.  I am now the co-owner and CEO of another company that is fully aligned with my purpose of helping people find healing and transformation. The company is called brainbased.com. We help our clients achieve healing and transformation through the vehicle of nervous system rehabilitation and somatic. Working through the body by creating safety and presence within our own bodies, we can then radiate that out into every aspect of our lives. I m really passionate about this because it s a modality that has completely transformed my life and my healing, and it s something that I came to after experiencing the trauma that we talked about in our original episode. I m so grateful to be able to live and work every single day, helping people experience the healing and the transformation that I m so grateful to have experienced myself.  My mom has some exciting updates too. Her home is going through another massive clean out as we speak. This time she has professional organizers helping her instead of me, which is great. I m getting a little break. It is being completely emptied out and staged over the next couple of months in preparation for her to sell it. She is moving to this really cool, independent living co-op, which is really close to where I live, and really close to where her house is, so she s staying in our neighborhood. She is so excited and so thrilled for this next chapter. The fact that we already did that big clean out in 2015 is making this process much easier. So, I m very excited in about a month to be able to walk through the house and it s going to be totally emptied out and staged and painted, and I think it s just gonna be such an incredible full circle moment. So I m really excited about that.  Thank you so much, Scott, and thank you so much to the listeners. Scott I’m really happy to be connected with Margy and it will be fun to see what’s next on her journey! She’s not creating new episodes for her podcast now, but the show is still available to listen. And if you’re interested in getting a 2-week free trial on her membership site for nervous system healing, you can do that at FreeNeuroTrial.com. I’ll have that link in the episodes at WhatWasThatLike.com/250.  And speaking of podcasts – I want to tell you about a way to discover new podcasts that you might not otherwise hear about. My friend Lauren sends out a free email newsletter to tell you about shows that she’s discovered and recommends. She listens  to about 30 hours of podcasts every week – and then WRITES about them. It’s a great source for discovering new shows. You can sign up at  https://podcastthenewsletter.substack.com/  and I’ll have that link in the episode notes also. She doesn’t know I’m telling you about this, so when you sign up, tell her I sent you. She’ll get a kick out of that. If you’re in the Facebook group, you saw that the question this past Tuesday was “What’s an opinion you changed after getting older?”. I know I’ve changed my mind about a few things. What about you? Come on over and tell us about it. We do questions like this every week at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And remember, you can sign up to support the podcast by going to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS, or on an iPhone just click on Try Free – you’ll get every episode ad-free, plus there’s more than 50 bonus episodes that are exclusive to supporters. And now we get to hear the Listener Story. This is how we end every episode – with a story sent in by a listener. You can record a story on your phone, roughly 5-10 minutes long, and email it to me – [email protected]. This listener recalls something she did in school, as a First Grader. Stay safe, and I’ll see you here next week, with new episodes on Tuesday and Friday. (Listener story) The story takes place back in the early 80s. My family and I lived in Germany on a military base. I was in first grade and I had the most awful teacher. This is the kind of teacher that would make me hate school from here on out. She was essentially the wicked witch of the west. She had this yardstick and she would smack us with it. I mean, we wouldn t see it coming it was a yardstick. It was just for the most minor infractions when you weren t sitting correctly or didn t have your pencil out, stupid things.  Anyway, one day we were sitting on the floor. It was story time. This was right before the end of the day and, boy, did I have to pee. I mean, I m in first grade bladder the size of a thimble. I raised my hand. She ignored me. I kept it raised, getting increasingly frantic. Finally, she tells me, “Put your hand down. You re not going anywhere.” And I said, “I have to go to the bathroom.” And she said, basically, “Tough luck. It s the end of the day. You ll be going home soon and this is story time. You re not going to interrupt.” And I was dying internally. All I could think about was how bad I had to pee. I could still think about it right now and feel that urgency.  I somehow managed to breathe through it, and it was the end of the day. Man, I was not going to make it to the bathroom. Usually, I am very shy, just want to dive into myself and not be seen kind of little kid. Something in me snapped that day and I looked at her chair and yeah, I thought to myself, “I can do this. She deserves this.” So when her back was turned, as she was helping get all the other little kids together, I snuck to the corner of the room, hopped up on her chair, and man did I pee. I peed and it overflowed and I don t know how nobody saw me do it or heard it, but nobody saw me. I jumped off the chair, pants soaking wet, I grabbed my backpack and I tied my jacket around my waist and I left.  My mom picked me up. We re walking back and she notices that I m soaking wet, and she asked me what happened, and I told her that the teacher didn t let me go to the bathroom and I couldn t hold it. Did not tell her about the chair. I guess the teacher put two and two together and my mom got a call from the principal. We all came in and the teacher was just so mean. I don t even remember what she said to me but, like I said, I was so embarrassed that I did that and–I hated any attention, good, bad, or indifferent. So, she was up in my grill trying to get me in trouble but, when it came to the point where I told the principal, “She didn t let me go to the bathroom,” it kind of changed. My mom got mad and the principal got mad at the teacher, so it really kind of backfired on her.  I did take that opportunity to tell them that she also hits us with a yardstick. I don t know if anything ever came of that because it was, I guess, legal at the time. But yeah, she did get in trouble for not letting me go to the bathroom and I think I got my point across quite clearly because, any other time that I had to go, I was always let go out of the class. And I think about it to this day, I would absolutely 100% pee in her chair again if I had to.

For a lot of people, flying is a really scary thing. And that fear can come from a few different factors. You’ve heard stories about planes that have crashed (even though it’s rare). You’re gonna be in this metal tube a few miles above the ground. And you’re putting your life in the hands of people you don’t even know. Part of flight attendant training is learning how to handle a passenger who has anxiety about flying. If someone steps on to the plane and tells them, “Hey, I’m pretty nervous about this”, they have ways to deal with it. They need to keep that passenger comfortable, and everyone on the plane safe. One thing a fearful passenger can do is ask to meet the pilot. This might not always be possible, but in many cases the pilot is happy to meet a nervous flier and provide some reassurance. Then, a few minutes later when the plane is taking off, you can think “this feels a little scary, but I met the person who’s flying the plane, and they seemed to know what they’re doing”. But takeoff is just the first part – you still have to get back to earth. What if the plane is landing, and no one – not even the pilot – knows that anything is wrong Until you hit the ground. Full show notes for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/249 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well) Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.   Try What Was That Like PLUS free:   iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”   Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app       Sponsor deals: Visit FunctionHealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod   Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up.   Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns!   Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month - MintMobile.com/WHAT Episode transcript (download transcript PDF): For a lot of people, flying is a really scary thing. And that fear can come from a few different factors. You’ve heard stories about planes that have crashed (even though it’s rare). You’re gonna be in this metal tube a few miles above the ground. And you’re putting your life in the hands of people you don’t even know.  Part of flight attendant training is learning how to handle a passenger who has anxiety about flying. If someone steps on to the plane and tells them, “Hey, I’m pretty nervous about this”, they have ways to deal with it. They need to keep that passenger comfortable, and everyone on the plane safe. One thing a fearful passenger can do is ask to meet the pilot. This might not always be possible, but in many cases the pilot is happy to meet a nervous flier and provide some reassurance. Then, a few minutes later when the plane is taking off, you can think “this feels a little scary, but I met the person who’s flying the plane, and they seemed to know what they’re doing”. But takeoff is just the first part – you still have to get back to earth. What if the plane is landing, and no one – not even the pilot – knows that anything is wrong Until you hit the ground. Scott Prior to this, were you ever nervous at all about flying?  Elenas I did have a fear of flying, yes. It wasn t super severe, I wouldn t say, but I took the job knowing that they did fly and I was hoping to overcome my fears with flying. So I did have a fear of flying.  Scott That s something that a lot of people have, but it s interesting that you pursued a job that required that. Are you typically the type that s “I m afraid of it, but let s just face it, let s just hit it head on”? Elenas Yes. I m not going to let it stop me from travelling because I love travelling.  Scott This happened about two and a half years ago. You were flying pretty regularly back then? Elenas Yes, probably around twice a week. It depended on the work schedule, obviously. I would say I was part-time and I probably flew, I would say, four to five times a month.  Scott And what was your work? What were you doing?  Elenas I was a surgical assistant for a medical facility, and we just flew around to their separate locations in the northwestern part of the US. They had several locations. Scott And when you say surgical assistant, it sounds like you d be the one to hand the surgeon the tools that they ask for while they re operating on someone.  Elenas That s correct, yes.  Scott Okay. I figured that out really easily.  Elenas Well, I was making my way up in the company. At that time, I was a sterilising assistant, and then you make your way up through the company and you re all the way up to a surgical assistant.  Scott And what kind of surgery was this?  Elenas This was cataract surgery.  Scott Okay, so cataract removal. It s interesting though because, usually, I think of surgery happening in a hospital, so you would just stay local. Why didn t they just hire local people? Why did they have to fly you around to these various locations?  Elenas I m actually not really sure why they didn t hire just locals. It s still a question I have, but I couldn t tell you why it was more productive for them to buy these jets and fly people to facilities.  I don t know.  Scott And so you weren t flying commercial, the company had these planes and they had their own pilots and everything then?  Elenas Yes. They were like a 10-seater twin engine jet, and they had three of them.  Scott I guess there s money in cataracts.  Elenas Yeah, I think so.  Scott Was this usually just overnight and then back home? Elenas No, it was just a full day. It d probably be about a 10 to 12 hour day if it was flying. We d start our day at 6.30, getting on our flight, and we d get home probably around– could be anywhere between 6.30 and 7.30, but never overnight.  Scott Let s talk about what happened on that day. What kind of plane was this or how many passengers were on the plane?  Elenas There were nine passengers, and it s just a Cessna twin-engine aeroplane jet, not the propeller kind, and it was just like any other day. I was actually on call that day and got called in that morning. I never have been called in, and that was the first time that I actually got called in that day. Scott So there were nine people. These are all people that you work with?  Elenas Yes.  Scott So you knew all of them?  Elenas Yes, I knew all of them. The plane was so full that one of the staff had to sit in the cockpit next to the pilot. So it was a full flight. I d say it was about a roughly 45-minute flight. We got on the plane about 6.30 AM and you could either listen to podcasts while you re on the plane or a good movie. Actually, the pilot that day, excellent pilot, he s one of my favorites just very smooth takeoff, very smooth landings. He is just one of my favourite pilots, and it was a very uneventful flight, no turbulence, beautiful day, clear skies. So we went in for a typical landing. I was putting away all my gear and my backpack, and we came in for a landing and hovered over the runway a little longer than I thought. Since he was such a great pilot, I thought the plane had already touched down because his landings, I m telling you, were so smooth, but we had not hit. We were hovering.  Then, it hit and it was metal-on-pavement, if you can imagine, screeching, grinding sounds. It was really loud and at that moment everybody looked at each other. The girl in front of me, her seat faces me, so she s actually going backwards. The look on her face was just sheer terror and everybody s looking around. I see the girl up in the cockpit. She turns around to look at us, and we re just skidding across the runway and sliding and grinding. The plane actually started to turn slightly to the right. The left wing was starting to turn. I thought, at that point, that the airplane was going to start rolling or swinging around, but it somehow corrected itself and I could see the pilot trying to gain control of the aircraft. At that point, you don t have any control over an aircraft. All you have is wing control, I m guessing. If whatever s happening underneath the aeroplane isn t down, you have no control.  Scott So this was completely without warning?  Elenas Yes. There was no, I d say light noise going off, no warning signals, anything. It was totally silent. That whole aircraft was just silent. I always pay a lot of attention to what s happening in the cockpit because I am a fearful flyer. So, I always watch the pilot and what they re doing, and if they re freaking out during the flight, then it s a good indication for me to start freaking out. I watched as he landed, there was nothing happening on that airplane, no warning signals at all.  We slid all the way from when we landed. I would say it was 20 feet. We stopped 20 feet before the end of the runway, and NTSB says, “We stopped at the departure lane where planes come in to depart.” I was looking out the cockpit thinking, “We re going to keep sliding and we re going to slide into the ground and this thing is just going to start flipping” because we were still going so fast.  Scott Do you know how fast you were going when you hit the ground?  Elenas The NTSB said that we hit the ground at 164 miles per hour and it just slid the whole length of the runway.  Scott And what s past the runway? Is it trees or a road or do you know? Elenas It was just dirt and gravel and brushy stuff. It s a very dry country kind of deserty out there.  Scott Can you describe how loud was it? What was the sound like inside the plane while you were sliding?  Elenas It was very loud. It s really hard to describe the sound unless you ve heard metal grinding on pavement. Just screeching. It s indescribable. If you ve ever heard any sort of metal dragging under your car while you re driving I d say scraping across a pavement, times that by 10 because we were totally on our belly. Nothing was down.  Scott Obviously, you landed without the landing gear, without the wheels, but it seems like a plane would have some kind of notification that you re getting too close to the ground and your landing gear has not been deployed.  Elenas Yep. Correct. Scott What were the other passengers doing? Was there a state of panic?  Elenas Everybody was actually very quiet. I mean, everybody s eyes were as big as basketballs, but we were all very quiet, and I feel like our brains were just shutting off and preparing us for the worst. I mean, that s the only way I can explain it because I thought I was going to die, like, “That was it. I was actually living out my worst fear of dying in a plane crash. That was it.” And it was completely silent on the airplane. Not even alarms going off. I mean, just silent. Scott And was everyone wearing their seatbelt?  Elenas Yes, everybody was wearing their seatbelt.  Scott While this was happening, what was the pilot– could you see him? Was he saying anything?  Elenas He wasn t saying anything. I was looking out my window and the cockpit window because I was watching us approach the end of the runway, but I kind of was watching him as well, and he was pressing buttons and trying to control the steering wheel, I would say, of the aircraft, keeping it from twisting. But I really don t think pilots have much control if their wheels aren t down and it s just sliding like that. I think he was just trying every angle he possibly could to keep that thing from twisting and turning.  Scott Yeah, I can imagine the pressure on him because– I mean, you guys are all in fear for your lives individually, but he s kind of responsible for everyone s life on that plane.  Elenas Yes. So it finally reached its stopping position and he got up out of his seat and he said, “Everybody, you need to get off the plane right now.” I grabbed my bag and he was opening the door it was on the left side of the aircraft if I was facing forward and we all filtered out. I was probably third or fourth off the plane. As I stepped out the stairs usually drop underneath the aeroplane they just fell out right onto the pavement and they didn t fall under because we were on our belly of the aeroplane.  I stepped out and I looked to my left and there was just fire blazing from the back of the plane and there s a hole in the wing and there s jet fuel just spilling out onto the runway from the wing. And I just ran. I was like, “This thing is going to explode.” And I ran. I got to say I didn t even look back. I was in fight or flight mode and I didn t think about any of the other passengers, which is not very nice to say, but I don t know. I was just in a really weird state of mind and just ran, and I heard the plane just– I couldn t tell you if it exploded or the front window blew out but, at that point, it exploded. I turned around and the whole thing was just totally engulfed, and that was probably close to about 15 seconds after the last passenger exited the airplane. Scott And was the last passenger off the plane the pilot? Elenas No, it was a girl in the very back of the airplane. Everybody hates that seat. It s actually like across from the bathroom and it s dark and there s no windows. She was back there and it came very close for her to get off that airplane.  Scott I just have to pursue this question. Was the pilot the first one out?  Elenas I can t remember if he was either the first or the second. He did run off of that thing pretty quickly.  Scott So when you exited, was he already out? You could see him out of the plane? Elenas I have a hard time remembering.  Scott Yeah, you re full of adrenaline and not really– Elenas I feel like he was standing in the cockpit hallway area. I feel like he was standing there, but I know that he wasn t the last one off. He wanted to go back for his laptop and phone, and the lady that was standing next to him told not to go back there because it blew up right after the last person. You got to just leave it. It wasn t like a sink-with-the-ship with him. He beamed off there pretty quick.  Scott So where did you go from there?  Elenas I called my husband. At that point, I could hear the fire trucks and ambulances. They were coming up and they had no– usually, there will be a call in if planes have no landing gear so that they can spray the runway with foam so that planes don t catch on fire, which they had no warning of, so they were rushing down the runway. I called my husband at work and I feel so bad because I scared the daylights out of him. He thought we had crashed in the wilderness and he was like, “You need to call 911 and get away from the airplane.” I was like, “No, I think the tower has already called 911” because I hear the ambulances and I just feel really bad. And then I had called my mom and told her what was happening and then we all just stood around until they put the fire out on the airplane, and then the firefighters and ambulance came over to us and started asking us questions if we were okay. At that point, I was sitting down because I just felt so sick, so nauseated. It must have all the adrenaline just coming down on me at once. They took us in the ambulances and some vans to the fire station at that point.  Scott And is this a fire station that s local in that area or is it on the airport grounds?  Elenas I believe it s local in the area. We went to the fire station. They gathered us in a room and they, “Do you guys need anything? Can we do anything for you?” I feel like everything at this time was very cinematic, very slow motion. I don t remember a lot of it. The time is just really strange, but they had us fill out a report on what happened and then turn it into us. I guess there were some investigators there.  We were there for probably an hour, and then they said, “We need to get you guys out of here because the reporters are starting to show up.” So they filtered us into their fire station area where they keep the fire trucks and they pulled the vans in there, put us in vans, and then took us to another airport. I don t know what was happening, why they were pushing us around all these different places, trying to figure out what to do with us. Somebody had said, “Well, how about we send another airplane to get you guys and bring you back home?” And I said, “I m not flying anywhere. First of all, I ll hitchhike home if I have to. I m not flying. “ Scott You had enough of it for that day, huh?  Elenas Yeah. So we went to the other airport and sat there for a while. I just remember the pilot– he was just pacing and he was going through something, I don t know– because it was already coming out on the local news and everything that there was a plane crash. From there, they took us to a medical facility that I work for in the area, and we went into the break room and the owner came out, talked to us, and asked what happened, and he was just in shock at that point and they were trying to figure out what to do with us and they figured out that they had some vans for us and they had some drivers to take us back home, which was probably about three hours away.  Scott What kind of message did the owner of the company want to convey at that time? Did he have an explanation or did he say, “Don t worry, we re going to take care of any injuries”? How was he handling it?  Elenas He handled it very well. He felt really bad for the whole situation and he asked the pilot, he said, “What happened?” And the pilot explained to him what he could, and then we explained to him and he was just kind of in shock. I do have to say though that the owner said to us, “If anybody needs compensation, please let me or your supervisors know.” It s a religious company. So he prayed with us and then he said, “I got to get back to work” because he s like the main surgeon. So he went on to work.  Scott Were there any actual physical injuries?  Elenas Some girls claim to have some back sprain and there was a couple– it seemed like it happened more in the back of the airplane because that s where more of the girls have back issues. In fact, they have gone to the doctor for this and have had MRIs and all of that done, and they re working with Labor and Industries through Washington State to get that taken care of. Scott Were you under the impression that s what the owner was talking about as far as compensation? I mean, obviously you d all just lost a day s work also,  Elenas Right. They did pay us for the day, but that s not what I thought he meant by compensation. I had actually reached out to him and the CEO and asked about the compensation again, and they probably talked to their lawyers and I m guessing, and came back and said, “That s not what we meant by compensation. What we actually meant was if you needed time off.” So it was kind of retracted.  Scott He spoke a little too soon before consulting with their attorneys.  Elenas Yeah. So that s how that went. They did pay for counseling sessions for all of us afterwards.  Scott You got home like three hours later after the three hour ride. What was that evening like?  Elenas I mean, the car ride was really quiet. Then, we got back to the airport hangar and some of our supervisors were there and they were hugging us and crying, and I just want to get out of here and I just want to go home. I got in my car, went home, which is about a half hour away. My kids were all there staring at me, my mom was there, my husband was at work still. I told him there was no use for him to just leave work and come because it was such a chaotic time and I just, “I ll see you when you get off work.” It was just like a really surreal time, a very strange feeling. Everybody was just in shock of what just happened.  My sisters were texting me. I had other family members texting me, “Are you okay? And what happened?” There was a rumor that somebody had started that they had seen the crash from the airport and he said he didn t see anybody get off the plane and that we all died. He sent that to my workplace and everybody was freaking out over there, and it was just chaos. We did get a mass email from the owner– the pilots. This will never happen again, they re sorry about it, and they promise to everybody this is not something that will ever happen again, in other words. The technical term I want to say from the NTSB was that the pilot did not ensure the landing gear was extended before landing, and that contributed to the pilot s unstable approach.  Scott Not only to put down the landing gear, but also the wind flaps to slow down the landing, slow down the forward speed of the plane he hadn t done that either.  Elenas I looked this all up on the NTSB because that s where I get all my information from. The airplane s flaps were likely configured in a takeoff setting, which contributes to warning lights not triggering on, if you understand. When you re going too fast for landing, which the plane was at 164 miles an hour landing, and landing speed is 130 knots, which is I believe 110 miles an hour. So when these things are not done correctly, I think that what they re saying is the warning signals do not go off because the plane doesn t think it s landing. That s why there were no warning lights being issued when we hit the ground or getting close to the ground because the plane didn t understand that it was landing. Scott That just seems weird to me. I m not a pilot, so I have no idea what I m talking about here, but the plane should have known that, oh, I m 10 feet off the ground. Maybe the wheels should be down. That seems like common sense.  Elenas NTSB found no issues with the plane s electrical system or warning system, none of that. They didn t find anything wrong with it.  Scott Did you ever hear anything from the pilot himself?  Elenas I haven t heard anything from the pilot. I haven t heard anything from the pilot. We saw him that day and then, after that, I had never heard one thing from him.  Scott He was probably advised to not say anything. Elenas I think a lot of people were advised not to say anything.  Scott Is he still your favourite pilot? Elenas No. I don t have any favourite pilots anymore.  Scott He lost that status pretty quickly, huh?  Elenas Yeah.  Scott When you got that message from the owner, what s your reaction to that? I mean, do you just say, “Oh, well I m not flying this anymore” And was the pilot fired?  Elenas No. So that email came out. The pilot was pushed back into flying and I put in my two weeks notice. It was all probably within the same day or within two days because I was done with it. They didn t even have the decency to come to us, say, “Listen, we re going to have him back flying with us. Are you guys okay with that? How do you feel about that?” Nothing was said to us. And he was brought back. No explanation. I have no idea why. I just put in my two weeks notice because I can t work for a company that doesn t value their employees.  Scott And there could be, obviously, the chance that you d be flying with him again.  Elenas Yeah. Well, I told them right after I said, “I m never flying with you guys again.” I told my supervisor, I said, “Do not put me on any flights.” And it was even getting hard just riding with people. We would ride, in closer locations, in large vans, and everybody would take turns driving and I was like, “I don t even want anybody driving me anywhere.” Scott You don t know how good of a driver somebody is either. Elenas Yeah. At that point, I was like, “This is too risky for me. I have too big of a family, and I can t risk dying in a car crash or a plane crash,” and so I just walked away from it.  Scott Did everyone file a lawsuit?  Elenas No, three to four of us did.  Scott Individually? Elenas No, we were together on it. So we ended up filing a lawsuit on it but, after a year and a half, two years, it took two years for the NTSB investigation to finalise their report, and then our lawyers jumped on it and they said, “The company is covered. You cannot sue for something like this because the pilot is actually a coworker.” So we couldn t go any further with it. They just dropped it and said, “You have to go through workers compensation.” Scott What was the claim on the lawsuit?  Elenas It was an injury lawyer, so we were just trying to get anything out of them because a lot of us had quit working for them and just backpay from when we quit. I mean, just anything to help with other bills that we had. A lot of us have other bills that weren t paid for because working with workers comp is a nightmare, so we used our own insurance or just paid things outright such as massage therapy or psychology visits, therapy visits.  Scott I would think, for something like this, the company must have been insured. Elenas Oh yeah, I m sure they have to be.  Scott I mean, not just for the replacement of the destroyed plane right, but for liability, for having all these employees in a plane crash.  Elenas I had asked about compensation and the reply I got was that the cost of the new airplane was too far– it cost too much to replace the airplane to compensate the rest of the employees. Scott Wow. Just what you wanted to hear.  Elenas Yeah, I mean, it just felt like we were a number in a group and you guys lived, you made it, be thankful and go back to work and if you don t want to work here, then see you later. We ll hire new people.  Scott The pilot s still flying. I wonder if the people that are his passengers know the story. Elenas Oh, they know it, yeah. They re risking their lives. I think those planes should have a big black riding on the outside, “Fly at your own risk” because they should know. If I was them, I would not be flying with that company. No, there s no way.  Scott And I would think too, just from the pilot s perspective, he must have a lot of self doubt now at least when he went back to flying anyway. thinking, “Man, what if I do that again?” Elenas I mean, I don t think he ll ever make that mistake again. I m sure he will always triple, quadruple check to make sure that his landing gear is in fact down, but who s to say if he ll forget something else or another pilot will forget something else. I just don t think they re held to enough standards because they fly privately.  Scott Have you flown again since then?  Elenas I have flown, yep. I did have to obtain some medications, some Xanax to be able to fly again I ve never had to ever take that before, but it does help with flying. I still get really nervous. I get nervous when the plane lands. but I m not going to let it stop me from getting out there and seeing the world. Scott That s impressive. Some people would say, “No, never getting on a plane again.” And I can imagine certainly, at the Landing– I mean, everyone on the plane has never been in a crash. I mean, when I fly, it s always kind of tense up and wait for that hit and then okay, good, we re down and we re safe once again. Elenas Yes. And with all these plane accidents happening, it s just been crazy. I m not going to let it stop me though.  Scott Did you have any psychological symptoms or an actual diagnosis like PTSD? Elenas I had a couple psychologists help me and they said I did have PTSD just because I have– I used to have really bad night terror from it. A couple times I d wake up just running through my house from a dream, like a sleepwalking but running, because I was having these terrible dreams, and then they started to go away, fewer and fewer. Now, I really wouldn t say I have PTSD anymore just because my dreams have really subsided from it. But a year after that, I would have pretty bad dreams and I worked a lot with a psychologist.  Scott Did you feel your treatment was complete then? Elenas I think so. I mean, I would ve liked to have continued, at least, a couple times a month, but the cost is just astronomical with them, and I don t feel I should have to pay for something that a company did to me, so I let it go and I work things out kind of on my own. I have my own faith and I ve been able to do that on my own. Scott Do you still do the same type of work?  Elenas No, I m not working at all anymore. I kind of felt like I had only been working there for eight or nine months and I was off taking care of my children for eight years beforehand, and I went back to work for eight or nine months and this happened. So I think I ll just stay home with my kids. I just feel that maybe, with a lot of your people you ve had on podcasts, when you see death coming for you, I think it changes you as a person and this has totally changed me as a person and how I view things now. And I used to– I don t want to say take more chances, but I feel like life is obviously short, so let s just do it. If something makes you happy, just do it because it s not worth just waiting around for whatever may happen. I feel like I’d take not dangerous chances, but just more better chances in life and– it s hard to explain, but just seeing things differently. Scott It sounds like you re living life deliberately now and enjoying the present and this moment. Elenas Yeah, exactly. It s hard to explain, but that hits it right on the head. You can t just wait around for things to happen, just do it and don t fly private aeroplanes. Don t fly privately unless you really know the pilot.  Scott All right. Crazy story. I m glad you made it through.  Elenas Yeah, Thank you for having me. Scott I know for some people, going through something like this would mean they might never fly again. It’s like, okay – used up all my good luck on that one, not gonna do that any more. And that would be a completely valid position. Sometimes with stories like this, I get comments or questions about the legal aspect. That part is still ongoing, so none of that can be talked about right now. Maybe in a few years if we do this as a Flashback episode, Elena can talk about how it all turned out. Now I want to talk about something that I’ve seen come up a few times. This has to do with reviews in Apple Podcasts. You might notice, I almost never ask for ratings or reviews. I hear other shows constantly saying “Don’t forget to leave us a 5 star rating and a review” and it just gets tiresome. So I don’t do that. But a lot of people click and leave a nice review anyway – and I do appreciate that. But – what confuses me is when someone will go and write a review and comment or even ask a question about a particular episode. Like this one – this review was just left recently: The subject is: Victoria’s Dad And the review said this: “My main question is, why didn’t Victoria seek charges or a confrontation with Uncle Robert? She’s expecting law enforcement or CPS to get her dad, but what about HER abuser? Makes no sense.” Now, this person did rate the show 5 stars, so I appreciate that. But there are a few issues. First, these are anonymous. The person leaving the review is “NurseHHR” which is just their user name for Apple Podcasts, so I have no idea who this is. Second, anyone who reads this will almost certainly have no idea what story they’re talking or what the details are. Who’s Uncle Robert? What happened?  And third, there’s no way I (or anyone else) can respond. You can’t leave a comment on a particular review. So the questions are just floating out there, with no answers. Like I said, I do appreciate the 5 stars, but if you have questions like this, or comments, or really anything to say about a particular episode, we have ALL of that in the Facebook group. In fact, a lot of the guests you hear on the podcast are actually in that group and so you can ask them questions directly. That’s all at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. So you’re certainly welcome to leave a rating and review, but for an actual discussion, come on over to the What Was That Like Facebook group and join the conversation with over 9000 other listeners. Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.  And now we’re gonna hear this week’s Listener Story. Every main episode ends with a story that has been sent in by a listener, just like you. And I would LOVE if you would just record a short personal story on your phone, like 5-10 minutes, and email it to me at [email protected]. Seriously, we all want to hear it! This story is a nice reminder to enjoy each moment. Stay safe, and I’ll see you next week. (Listener story) My story is about a moment in my life when somebody made a big impact for me that, even today, I still remember. It was back many years ago when I was a middle-aged mom and I was taking my 13-year-old daughter to Maui, to the beach with the intent to snorkel. So we re on the beach and we re getting all of our snorkel gear on and our flippers, and we re just cracking up because we know how silly we look with all this gear on and then attempting to get down to the water. Here we are with our flippers on, trying to walk backward down to the water, just joking and laughing and having the best time, and it was just such a great memory.  We were down in the water and we had a wonderful time looking at the fish in Maui and then, when we were done, we just hauled back up to our beach towels. When we got to the beach towels, I noticed that there was a note in my shoe, so I immediately went over and I wasn t really expecting anything. I thought maybe it was a piece of trash or something, but there was a note in there for me and it simply said, “You are aging with grace.” That moment just stuck with me because I realised that somebody saw the value in me that I wasn t caring what anybody thought about me, that I was just intent on having the best time I could with my 13-year-old daughter. And we did. We were having a good old time. I was concerned about anything around me, but just her and somebody saw that, and that meant so much to me that they saw the importance of just having a good time, letting go, being in the moment with your child, and that meant so much to me.  Well, just as I was about to show my daughter, I lifted up the note to say, “Hey, take a look at this.” And then the wind came up at that moment, grabbed it out of my hand, and it went flittering away, and I didn t run after it. I just let it go and my daughter and I both just thought that maybe that s the way it was supposed to be, that it wasn t something for me to keep and keep looking at. It was just a very kind observation from a stranger that needed to just stay in my memory.

Every other Tuesday, we grab a past question from the Facebook group, then Meredith and Scott answer it and read some of the answers given by other listeners. The question for this episode: What s your irrational fear? Links for this episode: Ear Hustle podcast: https://www.earhustlesq.com/ Inside True Crime Podcast with Matt Cox: https://insidetruecrime.com/ Dan prepares people for prison: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/51 Meredith’s episode with RDAP Dan: https://www.meredithforreal.com/podcast-episodes/episode/780fdeea/ep-220-or-prison-consultant-a-pill-mill-walkie-talkies-and-youtube Meredith’s episode with Eric about drunk driving: https://www.meredithforreal.com/podcast-episodes/episode/48be1403/ep-37-or-from-eagle-scout-to-inmate Scott’s dumbbell workout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnZyBg5cjUk t=24s Netflix show, Animal Control: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21376524/ Meredith’s podcast is Meredith For Real – the Curious Introvert: https://MeredithForReal.com To check out the new Tuesday Question and get in the discussion, join us at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook. Sponsor deals: Visit www.functionhealth.com/WHATWAS or use gift code WHATWAS25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. Visit AuraFrames.com and use promo code WHATWAS at checkout to get $45 off. If you’re 21 or older, get 25% OFF your first order + free shipping @IndaCloud with code [WHATWAS] at https://inda.shop/[WHATWAS]! #indacloudpod Go to ThriveMarket.com/WHATWAS to get 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift just for signing up. Go to Quince.com/whatwas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns! Get 15% off OneSkin with the code [WHATWAS] at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Try Mint Mobile for 3 months, for just 15 bucks a month MintMobile.com/WHAT

September 11, 2001 was a tragic day in America. The terrorist attacks caused the deaths of 2,996 people in New York, the Pentagon, and near Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Thousands more were injured. And many people since then have died from illnesses caused by exposure to toxic materials at the World Trade Center crash site. Here on the podcast, each year in September we dedicate an episode to hearing stories from people who were there and witnessed the tragedy. In this episode, you’ll hear from Lori Brody, who worked in the World Trade Center, and from Joe Falco, a New York City firefighter. Their stories were told a few years ago here, and we’re taking this opportunity to make sure their voices are heard again, so that we never forget that day. If you, or someone you know, personally experienced the terrorist attacks at any of the three locations, please contact me through the website at WhatWasThatLike.com. May we never forget.   Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/149 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well). Get every episode ad-free, AND get all the Raw Audio exclusive episodes to binge, by joining the other listeners at What Was That Like PLUS.Try it free:iPhone: at the top of the What Was That Like podcast feed, click on “Try free”Android: on your phone, go to WhatWasThatLike.com/PLUS and click to try it free on any app Sponsor deals: Go to Seed.com/WHAT and use code WHAT to get 25% off your first month. Go to rakuten.com or get the Rakuten app to start saving today!<!-- notionvc: 5a64eb6f-2fff-4a4f-b9af-bf1e8b2dda0e -

I live about 20 minutes from world-famous Clearwater Beach. I do bike around that area sometimes but that’s about the only time I go there, because I’m not much of a beach person. But people come from all over the world to sit in that sand, because that’s one of the things Clearwater is known for. But there’s something else that makes this city famous. Clearwater, Florida is also the worldwide spiritual headquarters of the Church of Scientology. Back in 1975, there was a Scientology-founded group that purchased the huge Ft Harrison Hotel in Clearwater for $2.3 million. On the paperwork, the tenant was listed as “United Churches of Florida”, so the City Council and the citizens of Clearwater didn’t realize that the new owners were actually the Church of Scientology – until after the purchase was finalized. Citizens groups and even the mayor of Clearwater at the time, protested against the church establishing a base there, and they repeatedly referred to the group as a cult. But the group stayed. And now, the Scientologists own 185 properties in downtown Clearwater. If you drive around the city, you’ll see these people walking from one place to another, doing their work or taking courses. My guest today is Kat, and she knows about the Church of Scientology from first-hand experience. When she was barely a teenager, Kat was given to the Scientologists – by her mother. Kat at 13, working at the Sea Org   Kat   <img loading="lazy" decoding="async" class="size-full wp-image-3329" src="https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/kat.jpg" alt="The week this episode went live, I happe

There’s a phrase I find interesting. It’s often used to describe a person who seems to have an unusual power in different ways. The phrase I’m thinking of is “force of nature”. When I hear “that man, or that woman, is a force of nature”, it makes me think of someone who comes in like a whirlwind, with a clear objective, and nothing is going to stand in their way. And that description makes sense, because that’s how nature is sometimes. Here in Florida, we’re about to go into that magical time of year called Hurricane Season. A storm comes up out in the Atlantic, and they often make their way here. And they are literally a force of nature. Thankfully, we usually have lots of warning, so we have time to prepare. But if you’re in the path when a hurricane comes through, it’s loud, and scary, and terrifying. It doesn’t care about you. It’s just doing what nature does. But sometimes nature can be just as scary, and just as deadly, in complete silence. That’s what Gregg found out, when he found himself alone and wondering if he would survive. overview of Gregg’s artwork at the airport   Closer view of one section   <figcaption id="caption-attachment-3308" c

There are a lot of things we have that are amazing, but we take them for granted. Have you ever seen those videos online where the person being recorded is color blind? And their family gets them those specially-made sunglasses that actually allow a person to see colors, even though they have never been able to before. Of course, everyone in the family wants to see their reaction the first time they put on those glasses. So they all go outside, and there are usually some brightly colored balloons nearby, and the birthday person opens up this package to find a pair of sunglasses. Nice, thanks for the sunglasses. And of course everyone encourages them to try them on. And what happens when they put those glasses on, and they are now actually seeing colors instead of everything being black and white or just having shades of difference – their reaction is always amazing. In many cases, they are just so overwhelmed by the colors and overcome by emotion, they start to cry because of what they’re seeing. In that moment, everything has changed for them. They see everything differently, and they notice every single color. But for most of us, we walk around every day seeing all of these vibrant colors, and we never have a single thought about it. It’s just our normal. We often don’t understand or appreciate something until we are able to see the difference between having it, and not having it. My guest today, Chris, can attest to that. Like most of us, he grew up having hands – a left hand and a right hand. They were right there with him for more than 40 years, always doing what he needed them to do. But today, the hands that Chris uses are not the hands he was born with. Corn picker   <img decoding="async" loading="lazy" class="size-full wp-image-3294" src="https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/hook-first-day.jpg" alt="Chris, first day with hook prosthetic" width="500" height="375" srcset="https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/hook-first-day.jpg 500w, https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/hook-first-day-300x225.jpg 300w" sizes="(max-width: 500px) 100vw, 500

You know when people are asked about what their biggest fear is, a lot of the answers are what you’d expect – fear of heights, fear of spiders, and so forth. Humans are afraid of a lot of things. But when people are asked what their single BIGGEST fear is – the big one that usually comes out as number one is fear of public speaking. For a lot of people it even ranks higher than their fear of death. When Jerry Seinfeld heard about that, he correctly observed that that means if that person is at a funeral, they’d rather be the dead person in the casket than the one giving the eulogy. But there are some situations where we have to speak in public – and one of those is in a courtroom. For me, that would be the worst place to be nervous about speaking. When I’m in an uncomfortable situation, I’ll usually try to use humor to sort of ease the tension. But when you’re on the witness stand answering questions, with a judge and a whole room full of people watching you, that’s not really the time for a stand-up routine. My guest today is Collier, and he knows all about that situation. He was only 12 years old when he had to testify at a murder trial, to talk about what happened at his house one night. And the person he was testifying against was his own father. Collier with his mother   12 year old Collier, testifying in court   <img decoding="async" loading="lazy" class="size-full wp-image-2972" src="https://whatwasthatlike.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Jack

This is Scott, and you’re listening to What Was That Like. But this is not a regular episode of What Was That Like. I’ve got a really cool BONUS episode for you today. What you’re about to hear is the first episode in a new podcast series called Dark Valley. This series is investigation-oriented, and it’s about as True-Crime as you can get. You’re gonna learn about America’s “unknown serial killer” – or by the name given to him by law enforcement and the media: The Connecticut River Valley Killer. And it’s all laid out from the perspective of that murderer’s only surviving victim, Jane Boroski. Jane Boroski Can you imagine being attacked by a serial killer? And this was not a routine attack. Jane was stabbed 27 times by this man, whom she had never met. Oh, and when it happened, Jane was 7 months pregnant. In this first episode of the series, Jane talks about what happened. And I also had a conversation with Jane, and asked her a few questions of my own about this whole experience. You’ll hear that right after this episode plays, and of course we’ll have this week’s Listener Story as we do on every episode. The Dark Valley podcast series is produced by Crawlspace Media, and if you like this first episode, you can go and listen to the next one on Apple, Spotify, or whatever app you’re listening on right now. So I hope you enjoy this first episode of Dark Valley, followed by my conversation with Jane Boroski. Links: Dark Valley: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dark-valley/id1644915712 Invisible Tears: https://invisible-tears.com/ Jane’s social media: https://linktr.ee/invisibletearspodcast Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/144 Transcription was done by James Lai. Sponsor deals: Head to factormeals.com/wwtl50 and use code wwtl50 to get 50% off! What Was That Like is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit <a class="notion-link-token notion

Do you ever think about the children in your state who are currently in foster care? Here in Florida, there are about 19,000 children living in foster care. That’s a lot of kids. And in that group, there are about 500 children who have no identified families. Can you imagine how scary and lonely that must be, to be a child with no family at all, and only the government to try to take care of you and keep you safe? There are a lot of different situations that can lead to that. But whatever happened, it’s no fault of the child. They didn’t ask to be born into a family of addicts, or criminals, or abusers, or maybe just someone who didn’t want them. They’re already starting off life with a disadvantage. It’s not fair. My guest today, Samantha, learned about the foster care system kind of by surprise. She and her husband, Jeremy, were living their lives and they had three young children of their own which kept them pretty busy. They were a happy family. They didn’t plan to suddenly be dealing with the foster care system – or more specifically, a process called “Family Placement”. And it all started with an unexpected phone call about a baby. Samantha and Jeremy   Samantha, Jeremy and kids (Hannah blurred for privacy) Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/143 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listener

Here on the podcast, I talk to people who have been through extremely unusual situations. Like witnessing a murder, or being attacked by a monkey, or winning the showcase on The Price Is Right. We get to hear those stories first hand, from the person who experienced it. In this bonus episode, I want to introduce you to another podcast that has a very similar format, which means you’re gonna want to subscribe. This podcast is called The Only One in the Room, and the host is Laura Cathcart Robbins along with her boyfriend Scott Slaughter. I’ve known them for years. Truly wonderful people. So today I’m bringing you an episode of The Only One in the Room, and in the opening Laura will explain where that title came from. In this particular episode, you’ll hear the guest, Traci, talking about her husband, Chris. Chris was arrested for a crime he didn’t commit, and get this – he spent 3 years in jail just awaiting his trial. In the meantime, Traci is on the outside fighting to prove his innocence, while still maintaining an income and taking care of their 3 children, basically as a single parent. So much to talk about with a story like this. And keep in mind, this happened back in the early part of the Covid pandemic. Hang around after the conversation, and I’ll have an update about where the case is at today. I just have to say, Laura is one of the most compassionate people I know. You’ll hear it in this story, as she talks with Traci about what happened. And if you like this story, there are lots more that you’ll love. Just go to whatever podcast app you’re using right now, and search for The Only One in the Room and click Subscribe. I’d love to hear what you think about this story, and it will definitely generate some discussion in the Facebook group, so let’s hear your comments. So please enjoy this conversation with Laura Cathcart Robbins from the Only One in the Room, talking with Traci, whose husband Christopher was arrested. The Only One in the Room podcast: https://theonlyonepod.com/ Traci Kearney on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justiceforchristopherkearney/ Full show notes and transcript for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/142 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well)   If you’re looking for a simpler and cost-effective supplement routine, Athletic Greens is giving you a FR

Content warning – this episode includes discussion of sex trafficking, and graphic depiction of sexual attack. If you’re in the car with the kids, you might want to save this one for later. The situation that Jennifer found herself in is one that no one ever expects. She was away from home, and she didn’t really know anyone. On top of that, she was an American in Turkey and she didn’t speak much of the language. And her attacker was strong, and determined. But what came to her during this traumatic experience were things she had heard on a television show. Oprah Winfrey would sometimes have law enforcement specialists and self-defense experts on her show to give advice about what to do in certain situations. They said to always fight back – and NEVER let yourself be taken to a second location. That advice, along with some other tips she remembered, may have helped save Jennifer’s life. Because even though she was able to fight him off, he came back. Jennifer in 2009   Jennifer today If you’d like to contact Jennifer, or get two weeks of her brain and nervous system training for free, visit the website RewireTrial.com. Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here: https://WhatWasThatLike.com/141 Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai. Want to discuss this episode and other things with thousands of other WWTL listeners? Join our podcast Facebook group at WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook (many of the podcast guests are there as well)

There’s a problem that’s becoming a bigger and bigger issue for anyone who owns a home. The problem is squatters. If you’re not familiar with the term, “squatting” is when a person – or even a group of people – figure out that a house is not being occupied. Maybe the owner is trying to sell it, or in some cases, the owner lives there but is just away from home on a vacation. When the squatter determines that no one is home, they just go in – usually by breaking in – and take up residence. They just act like its their house. This is happening all across the country. And the infuriating this is that in most cases, the police can’t just go and remove them. It becomes a civil matter, which means the homeowner has to spend money on lawyers and court filings, as well as paying for some other place to live in the meantime. And all the while, the squatter is living in the home without paying anything. My guest today is Flash. He didn’t expect it, but he was faced with a squatter problem. But he decided to handle this case on his own. Disclaimer – the process that Flash used may not work for everyone. It might not work in your case. It also might be dangerous. For advice on how to deal with squatters, consult your attorney. Some of the squatter’s stuff   Flash If you’d like to contact Flash by email: [email protected] Petition to make squatting a crime: https://www.change.org/p/change-squatter-laws-help-make-squatting-illegal United Handyman Association website HTTPS://Un