The Argument

AI companies keep promising it will cure cancer. But what does that actually mean — and would an AI capable of doing it be one we d want to live alongside? Jerusalem Demsas and Kelsey Piper debated the question live in San Francisco, in front of a crowd of researchers, investors, and skeptics who had plenty to say about it. One of them is going to be very wrong. Listen and judge for yourself.(0:00) Is the AI trade-off worth it? (3:54) Are small wins good enough? (10:27) What would it mean for AI to cure cancer? (15:22) AlphaFold: Speeding up the chemistry of life (16:40) Did ChatGPT cure a dog s cancer? (31:10) Anthropic and the Build God strategy (34:38) Audience Q A(43:50) Jerusalem and Kelsey respondSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

America is on track for its lowest homicide year since 1900, but nobody seems to be celebrating. Matt Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas debate why crime has dropped so dramatically and what caused the pandemic-era highs in the first place. Were the George Floyd and BLM protests to blame for the increase in crime? Were cops holding back because they felt disrespected? Or was it pandemic-era disruptions that caused the chaos?Together, they explore what it means for democratic accountability when officers can retreat from their duties, why police union reform remains the third rail of criminal justice policy, and why crime is falling across the country regardless of conservative or progressive leadership.(0:00) The shocking 2025 crime drop(5:24) Criminal justice reform & the "Ferguson effect"(10:02) The George Floyd protests as an authentic democratic reaction(13:04) Debating the root causes of crime during COVID-19(23:49) The dire need for police union reform(29:52) Why nobody wants to be a police officer anymore(34:26) How much power do progressives actually have?(42:51) Peer review: Do violent movies prevent crime?Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

This week on The Argument, Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias debate the tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles. Jerusalem argues that Americans should have access to cheaper, climate-friendly cars, while Matt says industrial policy requires a more cautious approach.They dive into the failure of Trump’s tariffs, what serious industrial policy looks like, and how the climate activists are once again missing the mark.(0:00) The BYD car that can jump over potholes(4:07) Climate activists miss the mark(11:46) Setting the stage for war with China(20:13) Protecting nonunion electric vehicles(27:50) Let Jerusalem buy a cheap Chinese EV(35:13) Matt Yglesias’s trade solutions(41:20) Comparing today to 1980s Japan auto policy(46:10) Peer review: The effects of school phone bansSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Spirit Airlines is dead and the right, true to form, is blaming Joe Biden. The immediate cause of Spirit's demise is pretty clear: the war with Iran spiked jet fuel costs, and the already-battered airline couldn't absorb the hit to its bottom line. Last we checked, Joe Biden didn't start any wars with Iran. In this episode, Matthew Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas break down what really happened with Spirit Airlines, the weird history of aviation policy in the U.S., and the conspiracy by some progressives to reduce competition in the space. (0:00) Spirit Airlines is dead(7:07) The blocked JetBlue merger(14:54) 1960s airline nostalgia(21:12) Matt’s tinfoil hat theory(26:29) Pre-Carter airline monopolies(35:26) The dawn of deregulation(47:17) Anti-monopolists want less competition(54:19) America’s protectionist policies(58:22) Peer review: Marriage and gender-coded purchasesSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Betty Friedan thought Korean POWs were dying in captivity because their mothers were housewives. She thought boy moms were making their sons gay. She wrote a whole chapter comparing suburban kitchens to concentration camps — in 1963, while America was still processing what concentration camps actually were. "The Feminine Mystique" is one of those important books that everyone "knows" but no one has actually read. For today's episode of The Argument podcast, Matthew Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas read and review the book that kicked off second-wave feminism. 0:00-Introduction to The Feminine Mystique9:02-Psychotherapy, Mad Men, and Marxist origins20:02-The true drivers of social change30:52-Famous books with massive effects35:07-The most insane parts of The Feminine Mystique47:33-The female happiness paradox51:34-Rating the book’s success56:54-Peer Review: Health benefits of WW2 sugar rationing?New episodes post every Thursday.For an ad-free version, show notes, and full transcript, subscribe at TheArgumentMag.com. Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Matthew Yglesias wants to end asylum. On a new episode of The Argument, Matt argues that the post-WWII asylum framework is not just politically untenable but practically unworkable. Jerusalem Demsas, true to form, disagrees.New episodes post every Thursday.For an ad-free version, show notes, and full transcript, subscribe at TheArgumentMag.com. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

For the past century, America's foreign interventions often carried the pretense of liberal idealism – to help bring peace and prosperity to people around the world. But it doesn't take a history scholar to know that positive outcomes weren't always the result. In the latest episode of the Argument, Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias debate the merits of liberal hypocrisy, its benefits and drawbacks, and whether it's worth bringing it back. New episodes post every Thursday.For an ad-free version and full transcript, subscribe at TheArgumentMag.comSubscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

People tend to defend online anonymity by pointing to the long tradition of anonymous speech in American democracy.But modern anonymity is an entirely new beast. Should we ban anonymity on the internet? That's what The Argument's Jerusalem Demsas and Slow Boring's Matthew Yglesias debate in The Argument's latest episode.New episodes post every Thursday.You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsVisit TheArgumentMag.com for show notes.(Illustration by The Argument, image by Jorge Quijite)Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

When the Supreme Court rejected affirmative action at colleges and universities in 2023, finding that Harvard and the University of North Carolina practiced race-based discrimination against Asian American students, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote, "eliminating racial discrimination means eliminating all of it." The case, decided along ideological lines, caused a stir among progressives.But was this discrimination the inevitable consequence of affirmative action policies? Or did it simply give cover to people with genuinely racist beliefs?“The core problem with affirmative action — how it was being practiced, particularly at Harvard — is that they were just being racist to Asians … What was happening was not just like, ‘Oh, we’re all well-meaning people trying to improve [society]. These people had racist views about Asian Americans,” declared Jerusalem Demsas in The Argument’s premiere podcast episode.In this heated conversation, Matthew Yglesias and Jerusalem tackled affirmative action, an increasingly unpopular policy. And the Harvard case sits at the heart of the debate.“In a basic way,” lamented Matt, “it is not a good idea to be slotting people into racial and ethnic categories and judging them on that basis. It's not fair to people, and it's not healthy for society.”WATCH THE EPISODE HERENew episodes post every Thursday.You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsFurther reading:“Diversifying Society’s Leaders? The Determinants and Causal Effects of Admission to Highly Selective Private Colleges” by Raj Chetty, David J. Deming, and John N. Friedman“Breaking Systemic Barriers: Being Black in the Aquatic Sciences and Related Fields” by Lauren Pharr“Smartphones, Online Music Streami

Watch the official trailer for The Argument — a new podcast cohosted by Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias.Has affirmative action gone too far? Should we abolish internet anonymity? Is liberal hypocrisy worth defending?Welcome to The Argument, a weekly podcast from Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias, where two friends argue about politics, policy, and whatever else is on their minds.This is a debate show for people who want the nitty-gritty without the typical screaming matches or softball interviews. Each week, one host argues a distinctive point of view — armed with facts and research, not just pundit bluster — and then Matthew and Jerusalem hash it out.New episodes post every Thursday, starting April 9.You can find The Argument on Substack, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Are men naturally promiscuous and drawn to younger women? Are women obsessed with tall, older, rich men? Dating discourse is littered with pop evolutionary psychology that makes broad claims about how men and women are under a thin veneer of scientific credibility. But how much of it is backed by real science?In this episode of The Argument, host Jerusalem Demsas interviews UC Davis psychology professor Paul Eastwick about his new book, Bonded by Evolution: The New Science of Love and Connection. Eastwick breaks down some of the memes and myths about what evolutionary psychology really says about attraction and how we fall for each other.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Economists love to say there are no free lunches. Jennifer Doleac thinks criminal justice is one of the rare places where that’s wrong.In this episode, host and Editor of The Argument, Jerusalem Demsas talks with Doleac—economist and author of The Science of Second Chances—about what happens when you treat crime policy like an empirical problem instead of a morality play. Rejecting the false choice of being "tough on crime" or "soft on crime," Doleac surfaces a surprising number of reforms that can reduce crime and make the system more fair.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Trump didn’t just reshape the GOP—he may have ended what we used to call “the conservative movement.” New York Times columnist Ross Douthat joins host Jerusalem Demsas to map the new right: the collapse of fusionism, the rise of nationalism, and a media ecosystem where influencers matter more than institutions.Then they argue about what liberalism can and can’t solve. Can abundance and faster growth stabilize democracy, or are the deeper crises cultural, spiritual, and demographic in ways GDP can’t fix? The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Over less than 25 years, the opioid epidemic killed over 800,000 Americans. These deaths and the resulting economic and political ramifications were unequally distributed across the country. Some places were ravaged, others barely noticed what was happening. In this episode, host Jerusalem Demsas is joined by economist Carolina Arteaga to unpack new research linking the opioid crisis to increasing vote share for the Republican party. They dig into how a public-health catastrophe came to be a law and order issue, how conservative-leaning media covered the crisis differently, and how much of the shift can really be chalked up to persuasion. Plus: the surprising fertility finding in hard-hit areas and what it might say about opportunity and family formation.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Children are a problem for liberalism -- and it’s one you can see in everything from school-board wars to fights over “indoctrination.” If all individuals are free and equal, endowed with rights by their Creator, then does that include children? Kids are fully human, yes, but they’re also dependent, impulsive, and not yet capable of adult autonomy. So when do rights actually kick in?Rita Koganzon, a political theory professor at UNC Chapel Hill, has a blunt answer: adult-style rights have to start at a fixed age, and before that, children don’t really have any rights. Not because children don’t matter, but because the alternatives get dangerous fast. If the state gets to decide, case by case, who’s mature enough, you hand the government a tool it can easily abuse. And if you grant full autonomy, you’re pushed toward conclusions most people reject, especially around sex, consent, and how much say kids should have over institutions like schools.Host Jerusalem Demsas isn’t so sure it’s that simple. She agrees there’s no clean, fully consistent liberal theory of childhood, but she’s skeptical that “no rights” is the least-bad answer, or that our current equilibrium properly protects kids from harm without handing parents a blank check. The result is a bracing debate about where liberal principles bend, where they break, and what we’re really choosing when we draw the line between child and adult.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts</a

NIMBYism is usually explained as selfishness: homeowners protecting property values, or neighbors who just hate change. But a growing body of research suggests something simpler and harder to argue with: aesthetics.What if people oppose new housing not only because of who might move in or what it might do to traffic, but because the building just looks “wrong”?In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talks with UC Davis law professor Chris Elmendorf about new experiments that test what actually moves support for apartment buildings—design, context, symbolic cues like “luxury,” and even whether an architect is described as award-winning. They also get into what this means for YIMBY strategy and why some popular fixes don’t buy as much support as you’d think.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

If we want to address racism, should we talk more about race – or less?Matthew Yglesias argues liberals undermined their own principles when politics shifted from judging people as individuals to sorting them into moral categories based on group identity. We debate “the fox in liberalism’s henhouse,” collective blame, and why “accurate” generalizations can still poison a pluralistic society.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

A lot of Americans are uneasy about AI,  and so are many of the people building it. Yet we keep scaling and deploying these systems faster than we’re building rules to govern them. Why? The Argument's Kelsey Piper has a few explanations, from foreign competition to a sense of inevitability to a conservative party terrified of regulation. Even if the incentives are clear, our collective complacency is not, especially given AI models have already attempted blackmail and in one case attempted to smuggle itself to North Korea. Kelsey and host Jerusalem Demsas discuss why guardrails keep getting postponed, and what’s at stake.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Editor-in-Chief Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

At the end of the year, I wanted to revisit our very first podcast conversation with some of my favorite liberal journalists. In our very first live show in Washington, D.C., Derek Thompson, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias joined me for a disagreement-ridden conversation to tape the first episode of our new video podcast, The Argument.We talk about why Matt spends so much of his time arguing with the left, whether Ezra thinks it matters “who shot first” as the right ramps up its attacks, why Derek picked a fight with the New Antitrust Movement, and much, much more.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, I will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.Editor’s note: This episode was taped on Sept. 5, before the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the escalating threats from the Trump administration.For a full-length, ad-free version of our video podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsArticles discussed:“Messing With Texas: How Big Homebuilders and Private Equity Made American Cities Unaffordable” by Basel Musharbash“The Anti-Abundance Critique on Housing Is Dead Wrong” by Derek Thompson“How do we live with each other?” by Jerusalem Demsas“How to Blow Up a Planet” by Trevor Jackson“What I Got Wrong About DEI” by Eugenia ChengSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is prod

Why is far-right populism on the rise? Political scientist Gabriele Gratton has a controversial theory: For decades, technocrats moved policy decisions — on austerity, climate, and more – away from the realm of mass politics and toward independent authorities, courts, and experts. The result? A populist backlash fueled by the desire to reassert control over policy.In Gratton's telling, the populist backlash isn't irrational; it's a democratic response to elite failure. But his prescription isn't to abandon liberalism. This conversation explores how we got here and whether liberal democracy can course-correct before it's too late.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

America's literacy problem is a policy choice. As schools shifted away from phonics toward guessing-based instruction, a generation of kids paid the price. But a quiet reversal is underway in an unexpected place. Mississippi rebuilt reading instruction from the ground up and saw real gains. If it worked there, why are other states so resistant to copying it?The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Why do so many people believe immigrants are screwing them even when the evidence says otherwise? Economist Sahil Chinoy joins host Jerusalem Demsas to break down his massive 20,000-person study on zero-sum thinking — the worldview that assumes someone else’s gain must be your loss. They dig into how family histories of enslavement and immigration shape attitudes today, why young Americans are so much more zero-sum than older generations, and how economic stagnation fuels a sense of scarcity. They also explore why some policy fights (housing, redistribution, trade) trigger zero-sum instincts more than others, and what can actually shift those beliefs. If you want to understand the psychology and politics behind America’s “fixed-pie” debates, this episode is a must-listen.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Rising income inequality hurts democracy, health, happiness, and basically anything you can think of … right? Sociologist Lane Kenworthy doesn't think so. In his new book Is Inequality The Problem? Kenworthy argued that inequality is overrated as “the” cause of our problems — and discussed why the data pushes him toward a different set of priorities. Host Jerusalem Demsas is skeptical. Together, they dig into happiness, health, and populism, and they discuss why expanding the social welfare state might matter more than obsessing over the 1%.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Climate activists spent a decade arguing that if Democrats passed a huge climate bill, created green jobs, and centered “climate justice,” voters—especially the young—would reward them.They got their bill: the Inflation Reduction Act, the biggest climate law in U.S. history. Then youth support for Democrats, Republicans tore key pieces out all while red states took the money and blue states made it almost impossible to build wind, solar, or transmission.In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talks with Rob Meyer, founding editor of Heatmap News, about what the last few years have revealed about the U.S.' climate politics. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Silicon Valley’s sharp right turn didn’t come out of nowhere. Former tech worker and current tech writer Jasmine Sun walks us through how a once-solidly liberal sector became MAGA-curious. We talk about:The rise of “effective accelerationism” (E/acc)Why parts of the tech elite feel betrayed by the Biden administrationHow backlash to regulation, internal employee revolts, crypto crackdowns, and AI safety debates pushed founders toward Trumpworld Sun maps the ideological split between the engineers who see themselves as the last “live players” in American society and the regulators who believe they’re the only ones standing between the public and untested technology.This episode is also about the culture of progress. Host Jerusalem Demsas and Sun, who both attended Progress Conference in October, share their observations about the emerging populist backlash to AI, the failure of the DOGE experiment, Chinese AI and manufacturing strategies, and the widening value gap between tech elites and the rest of the country. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

What if climate policy can’t survive voters, courts, and NIMBYs?Bill McKibben is a pioneering climate writer and activist whose books and campaigns helped mainstream the case for rapidly replacing fossil fuels with clean energy. On today's episode, McKibben and host, Jerusalem Demsas, argue about the politics and economics of climate and discuss his new book Here Comes The Sun.McKibben's case: sun, wind, and batteries are now the cheapest new power on earth and China is sprinting ahead while America stalls. But Demsas is skeptical about McKibben's political strategy, particularly when it comes to the very live fight in Congress over permitting reform. They get into:Messaging that wins (“energy” vs. “climate”)The politics of transmissionCarbon capture: necessary for industry or a costly detour?Why climate activists are hostile to technological progressThe global picture: balcony solar in Utah, village microgrids in Africa, and cheap panels vs. imported fuelsThe Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: <a hr

Why is free speech losing ground? From crackdowns on immigrants, protesters, and law firms to campus speech codes, social-media “jawboning,” and government pressure – we're witnessing the erosion of the free speech culture that once defined American democracy.Greg Lukianoff is the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), a free speech organization. In this episode, he and Jerusalem discuss why defending free speech always means defending the unpopular, how bureaucratic cowardice and partisan outrage feed each other, and what a real revival of liberal tolerance would look like. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Economics writer Joey Politano joins host Jerusalem Demsas to explain the great tariff comeback story. From bananas and coffee to washing machines and Christmas ornaments, Trump’s new trade war is making life more expensive – but why? They unpack how tariffs actually work, why Trump’s obsession with them never went away, and what it says about America’s growing economic nationalism. Plus: why are politicians obsessed with reviving a 1950s manufacturing economy and can tariffs even make that happen?The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

Was everything we did during COVID-19 a mistake — or are critics rewriting history? In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talked with The Atlantic's Roge Karma about his reporting on “COVID revisionism,” which is gaining popularity across the political spectrum. The belief posits that not only were lockdowns, masking, and other public-health measures ineffective, but officials knew they wouldn’t work. Together, they traced how early uncertainty, mixed messaging, and political polarization created today’s crisis of trust in public health. They debated what the data actually showed about nonpharmaceutical interventions, how institutions weighed (or ignored) trade-offs, and what lessons we should carry into the next pandemic. From Sweden to school closures, from Francis Collins to the Great Barrington Declaration, this conversation asks what it means to learn from catastrophe without rewriting it.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you neve

Last week, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. the Trump administration's Health Secretary, outdid himself. During a Thursday Cabinet meeting, he alleged that "children who are circumcised early have double the rate of autism." This is part of Kennedy's ongoing quest to link Tylenol use in pregnancy to autism, a theory he previewed in September alongside the president. My guest today is worried about RFK Jr. Not just because some pregnant women may refrain from taking Tylenol unnecessarily, but because liberals seem to be missing what a dangerous political animal he really is. "As with Trump, liberals have made the [same] mistake with Kennedy," Dr. Rachael Bedard warns. "We are like, he's so weird. He's so unappealing. How could anyone respond to that? Everything he says is so patently crazy. There's no broad appeal here. And we are missing something happening at a frequency that the elite liberal just cannot hear that does speak to people." Rachael Bedard, M.D., is a columnist here at The Argument. You may have read her fantastic piece on RFK Jr.'s "mitochondrial malaise.” She is also a practicing physician specializing in internal medicine, geriatrics, and palliative care. From 2016 to 2022 she worked for Correctional Health Services, the public agency that provides medical care in New York City’s jail system. Bedard now cares for homeless New Yorkers in Brooklyn. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at [email protected] a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastSubscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | <a href='https://pca.st/akwiopya'

The day-to-day chaos of the Trump administration can make it easy to ignore slow-moving threats on the horizon — like the $37 trillion national debt. How can you pay attention to a crisis building months or years away when every morning brings reports of basic freedoms being stripped away?In this episode of The Argument, host Jerusalem Demsas interviews economics journalist Jordan Weissmann about the U.S. debt crisis, whether Jordan's advancing age has anything to do with his sudden concern about the national debt, and how expanding social welfare programs may rest on taking the national debt seriously.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.The Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at thergumentmag.com.Support the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.

In our very first live show in Washington, D.C., Derek Thompson, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias joined host Jerusalem Demsas for a disagreement-ridden conversation to tape the first episode of our new video podcast The Argument.We talk about why Matt spends so much of his time arguing with the left, whether Ezra thinks it matters “who shot first” as the right ramps up its attacks, why Derek picked a fight with the New Antitrust Movement, and much, much more.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, I will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.Editor’s note: This episode was taped on Sept. 5, before the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the escalating threats from the Trump administration.For a full-length, ad-free version of our video podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsArticles discussed:“Messing With Texas: How Big Homebuilders and Private Equity Made American Cities Unaffordable” by Basel Musharbash“The Anti-Abundance Critique on Housing Is Dead Wrong” by Derek Thompson“How do we live with each other?” by Jerusalem Demsas“How to Blow Up a Planet” by Trevor Jackson“What I Got Wrong About DEI” by Eugenia ChengSupport the Show: Get a full transcript, show notes, and an ad-free version: TheArgumentMag.com New episodes every Thursday—subscribe so you never miss a debate!The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley.