#592: Dennis McKenna — An Ethnopharmacologist on Hallucinogens, Sex-Crazed Cicadas, The Mushrooms of Language, BioGnosis, and Illuminating Obscure Corners

Brought to you by Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement , Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating, and Shopify global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business. Dennis McKenna ( @DennisMcKenna4 ) has spent more than 40 years researching the interdisciplinary study of Amazonian ethnopharmacology and plant hallucinogens. He has conducted extensive ethnobotanical fieldwork in the Peruvian, Colombian, and Brazilian Amazon. His doctoral research at the University of British Columbia focused on the ethnopharmacology of ayahuasca and oo-koo-he, two tryptamine-based hallucinogens used by indigenous peoples in the Northwest Amazon. He is a founding board member of the Heffter Research Institute and was a key organizer and participant in the Hoasca Project, the first biomedical investigation of ayahuasca used by the UDV, a Brazilian religious group. He is the younger brother of Terence McKenna. From 2000 to 2017, he taught courses on ethnopharmacology as well as Plants in Human Affairs at the Center for Spirituality and Healing at the University of Minnesota. In 2019, in collaboration with colleagues, he incorporated a nonprofit, the McKenna Academy of Natural Philosophy . Currently, the Academy has several projects underway, with the most immediate being preparations for an upcoming conference in the UK May 23rd–26th, ESPD55 , which will cover a wide range of topics related to psycho-ethnopharmacology and feature an exclusive, pre-release screening of the McKenna Academy’s first short documentary, BioGnosis, Bridges to Ancestral Wisdom . Dennis emigrated to Canada in the spring of 2019 with his wife Sheila and now resides in Abbotsford, British Columbia. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Shopify ! Shopify is one of my favorite platforms and one of my favorite companies. Shopify is a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere , giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. In no time flat, you can have a great looking online store that brings your ideas to life, and you can have the tools to manage your day-to-day and drive sales. No coding or design experience required. More than a store, Shopify grows with you, and they never stop innovating, providing more and more tools to make your business better and your life easier. Go to Shopify.com/Tim for a FREE 14-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features . * This episode is also brought to you by Eight Sleep ! Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover is the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature . It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced (and user-friendly) solution on the market. Simply add the Pod Pro Cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. And now, my dear listeners—that’s you—can get $250 off the Pod Pro Cover . Simply go to EightSleep.com/Tim or use code TIM at checkout. * This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens . I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens , my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase —a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product. * How Dennis and his brother Terence tuned in to “vegetable television” with the addition of an ayahuasca ingredient to their regular consumption of mushrooms and cannabis, and why even the components of tried-and-true ayahuasca are in constant flux depending on who’s making it. [07:39] Why is it that psychoactive drugs don’t always work — even in people who usually feel their effects — and what keeps us from finding out through controlled studies? [13:51] As much as Dennis has experimented with adding and subtracting ingredients to various psychoactive admixtures, he’s come to believe it’s best to avoid combinations if possible. There are often alternative ways to dial the effects of these substances up or down as desired. [21:43] Why would we have cannabinoid, opiate, and other molecular receptors in our brains unless we’re designed to consume these substances from external sources? [29:45] Tales of terror from the world of psilocybin cicadas, cordyceps zombies, and toxoplasmic rodents. [36:34] Dennis shares his thoughts on psychedelics as a potential treatment for dyslexia and other language-based disorders. [42:20] What happened to Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell after having his savikalpa samadhi experience — a mystic glimpse beyond the self into the true nature of things? Does Dennis believe current psychedelic pioneers are misguided in downplaying the mystical experiences certain compounds bring out in people? [50:18] For anyone curious about Albert Hofmann’s discovery of LSD, Dennis recommends the graphic novel Bicycle Day by Brian Blomerth. [53:48] My recommended resources for learning more about the perceptual phenomenon of synesthesia. [54:58] What ESPD 55 entails: its history, its itinerary, and how you can participate even if you can’t physically make it to the conference in the UK from May 23rd to the 26th. [56:51] How does Dennis relate to mortality and the inevitability of death? [1:08:54] What is BioGnosis? [1:11:56] How does Dennis feel about synthetic substitutes for psychedelic compounds that have been traditionally harvested from natural — and often endangered — sources? What adaptations might groups who see these plants as sacred have to make to ensure that some of them don’t go extinct? [1:14:16] Most communities of any size eventually have to deal with in-fighting and power grabs from a certain element, and the psychedelic community is no exception. Can Dennis imagine any solutions to this unfortunate reality? [1:25:31] What would Dennis choose if he could only partake of three psychoactive substances for the rest of his life? [1:35:02] The pros and cons of cannabis consumption and its methods of delivery, and how modern strains can induce experiences akin to psychedelics. [1:36:38] What we can expect from an upcoming second edition of The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, The BioGnosis Project (and its first associated documentary (to be screened at ESPD 55), virtualizing the Herbarium in Iquitos, and other parting thoughts. [1:42:46] * IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: The plants and compounds mentioned in this episode are illegal in many countries, and even possession can carry severe criminal penalties. This episode does not constitute medical advice and should not be construed as a recommendation to use psychedelics. There are serious legal, psychological, and physical risks. Psychedelics are not for everyone—they can exacerbate certain emotional problems, and there have been, in very rare cases, fatalities. For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show , please visit tim.blog/podcast . For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show , please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors . Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter ( 5-Bullet Friday ) at tim.blog/friday . For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts . Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books . 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