How to work better with Product, as an Engineer with Ebi Atawodi

Supported by Our Partners •⁠ WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. •⁠ The Software Engineer’s Guidebook : Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as well. — How do you get product and engineering to truly operate as one team? Today, I’m joined by Ebi Atawodi, Director of Product Management at YouTube Studio, and a former product leader at Netflix and Uber. Ebi was the first PM I partnered with after stepping into engineering management at Uber, and we both learned a lot together. We share lessons from our time at Uber and discuss how strong product-engineering partnerships drive better outcomes, grow teams, foster cultures of ownership, and unlock agency, innovation, and trust. In this episode, we cover: • Why you need to earn a new team's trust before trying to drive change • How practices like the "business scorecard" and “State of the Union” updates helped communicate business goals and impact to teams at Uber • How understanding business impact leads to more ideas and collaboration • A case for getting to know your team as people, not just employees • Why junior employees should have a conversation with a recruiter every six months • Ebi’s approach to solving small problems with the bet that they’ll unlock larger, more impactful solutions • Why investing time in trust and connection isn't at odds with efficiency • The qualities of the best engineers—and why they’re the same traits that make people successful in any role • The three-pronged definition of product: business impact, feasibility, and customer experience • Why you should treat your career as a project • And more! — Timestamps (00:00) Intro (02:19) The product review where Gergely first met Ebi (05:45) Ebi’s learning about earning trust before being direct (08:01) The value of tying everything to business impact (11:53) What meetings looked like at Uber before Ebi joined (12:35) How Ebi’s influence created more of a start-up environment (15:12) An overview of “State of the Union” (18:06) How Ebi helped the cash team secure headcount (24:10) How a dinner out helped Ebi and Gergely work better together (28:11) Why good leaders help their employees reach their full potential (30:24) Product-minded engineers and the value of trust (33:04) Ebi’s approach to passion in work: loving the problem, the work, and the people (36:00) How Gergely and Ebi secretly bootstrapped a project then asked for headcount (36:55) How a real problem led to a novel solution that also led to a policy change (40:30) Ebi’s approach to solving problems and tying them to a bigger value unlock (43:58) How Ebi developed her playbooks for vision setting, fundraising, and more (45:59) Why Gergely prioritized meeting people on his trips to San Francisco (46:50) A case for making in-person interactions more about connection (50:44) The genius-jerk archetype vs. brilliant people who struggle with social skills (52:48) The traits of the best engineers—and why they apply to other roles, too (1:03:27) Why product leaders need to love the product and the business (1:06:54) The value of a good PM (1:08:05) Sponsorship vs. mentorship and treating your career like a project (1:11:50) A case for playing the long game — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • The product-minded software engineer • Working with Product Managers as an Engineering Manager or Engineer • Working with Product Managers: advice from PMs • What is Growth Engineering? — See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠ https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ . For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe