Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music
Andrew Gill and Leah Payne
Andrew Gill and Leah Payne
Rock That Doesn’t Roll looks at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now by telling individual stories from the peak era of the contemporary Christian music industry. In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s CCM grew into a billion dollar business that affected millions of evangelical young people. Through interviews with artists, industry players and average fans Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill trace the long-lasting personal, cultural and political impact of sometimes cringe-worthy music. Expect hilarious moments and heartfelt yearning, purity culture and conservative politics- all in equal measure. Whether you’ve deconstructed, come out or renegotiated your faith, we hope you feel seen. If you’ve never given Christian music any thought beyond a punchline, we hope you’ll gain a deeper understanding of a subculture that’s shaping the world around us now. Join our Patreon or Buy Us A Coffee .
11h ago
It's our third annual Christmas special! Leah and Andrew are joined by returning guests Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and Daniel Gill . Everyone brought a Christmas song or two to celebrate and we even hear some picks from listeners. We've survived 2025. That's reason to celebrate. Daniel's 23 hour Christmas Playlist . Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr You can always make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Dec 10
Co-host and producer Andrew Gill's day job is with Sound Opinions. He recently interviewed John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats, so we're doing a feed drop here of that episode. To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call (629) 204-4264 and leave a message. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr -- John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats discusses his new book, "This Year: 365 Songs Annotated: A Book of Days" and his new album "Through This Fire Across From Peter Balkan" with Sound Opinions producer Andrew Gill. Find out more about Sound Opinions at Soundopinions.org
Nov 26
Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven . To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call (629) 204-4264 and leave a message. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr ---- In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1 . About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits . This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation ( www.hluce.org ), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities ( www.CalHum.org ). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds . The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid . The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story .
Nov 19
In our season three finale, we tell the full story of Steve Scott 's lost records that Larry Norman produced in 1978, but never released. Moving Pictures (and its companion Close Ups ) were victims of short-sighted Christian music industry executives and a myriad of bad circumstances after being recorded and they have lived in lore among frustrated record collectors for decades. Now they are close to finally being released. As Larry Norman was dying in 2008 he made a last request of his brother, who goes by Charles Normal, to ensure that the Steve Scott records be released someday. Charles has digitized the original tracks and mixed them for the first time and now he and Steve are raising money on Kickstarter to give the albums a proper release. Steve and Charles join us today to tell the full story and play some of the never-before-published songs. The Steve Scott Kickstarter --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to our Christmas Special? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Nov 12
Todd Fadel is our guest this week. He is an individual whose life experiences defy easy categorization. He was the lead singer of a Star Wars -themed side project to Tooth and Nail grunge band Sometime Sunday. He was a worship leader at a non-traditional church in Portland, Oregon. He helped run TOMFest. He's also a big fan of Evie. Most of our conversation in this episode is about his work running Meow Meow, an all-ages venue in Portland that straddled the Christian and secular music worlds in the early 2000s. Adam Voith's novel in progress that is mentioned in this episode. The film adaptation of Don Miller's best-selling book, Blue Like Jazz , is mentioned in this episode. It was directed by the legendary Steve Taylor. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Nov 5
David Dark is a life-long Nashvillian and an admitted member of what he calls "The Prayer Trade" as a professor of religion and the arts at Belmont University. In 2002 he published his first book, "Everyday Apocalypse: The Sacred Revealed in Radiohead, The Simpsons, and Other Pop Culture Icons." At the time he was involved in The Art House along with Leah and Charlie Peacock. Now David has reissued the book as " Everyday Apocalypse: Art, Empire, and the End of the World " or if you're a Swiftie "Everyday Apocalypse (David's Version)." Hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne welcome David back to the show to discuss both editions of the book, his relationships with musicians inside and outside the Christian music industry and his depiction in the book "Body Piercing Saved My Life." --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. -- PROMO SWAP: "When We Were on Fire" is a full-cast audio drama podcast based on the faith deconstruction memoir by Addie Zierman . Created by Lizzie Goldsmith , the podcast stars Aria Sivick as Addie, and features original music by Frank Sheffield .
Oct 29
The English worship band Delirious (technically Deliriou5?) certainly changed church music and probably influenced a young Chris Martin of Coldplay, but was their lasting impact on music bigger than Nirvana's? That's the case made in a social media video by our guest today, Gabriel Wilson . Wilson is a veteran of worship bands both as a musician and producer. He once toured with Delirious and has produced Delirious singer Martin Smith in the studio. He also has a deep respect for Nirvana. Andrew and Leah dig into his case for Delirious having a larger impact on music writ large than Nirvana. Gabriel's Video --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Oct 22
Aaron Carnes is an expert on ska, but is self-aware enough that his book (and podcast) are called In Defense of Ska. Like Christian rock, when folks admit to liking ska they often brace for being mocked. Aaron knows something about both worlds since he was only allowed to listen to CCM growing up. This conversation is wide-ranging, covering the roots of ska (Madness didn't invent it), the waves of reinvention it has survived and how it was put to use by Christians to good effect (Five Iron Frenzy, The Israelites, Runforyerlife) and questionable effect (The OC Supertones, B.O.B.). Plus a little story about Sonseed. ---- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
