About this episode
Giuseppe gets married leaves home and a mystery ensues, what did Del Gesu do, and where did he go for those "lost years"? Find out in this second episode of the life of Giuseppe Guarneri "Del Gesu". With special guests Jonathan Marolle, Joe Bein and Christopher Reuning. Transcript Jonathan Marolle I'll say that there is a paradox when talking about Guarneri del gesu because I don't wanna shock anybody, but if you look at the work, you'd say that he's probably, well to me, he is probably, in terms of craftsmanship, the less talented maker of the family. But yet he's the most famous and one can see the prices of instruments by Guarneri del gesu that rich, like crazy, crazy amount of money. We have to try to explain that. And I guess that what makes Guarneri del gesu so amazing for musicians and also for makers and value makers and dealers and restorers, is that. There is some sort of a, he is a legendary maker. There's so many stories about him, more or less true. And there is some sort of, he was a crazy maker. If you look at the instruments that he has made, especially at the very end of his career, it's so crazy. It's so extravagant that I think this plays a part of this this myth of Guarneri del gesu. And also we have to mention the tone quality, because eventually that's a, that's a musical instrument. So these were made to perform music and the tone quality is is beyond question. It's these are great instruments. Strange figure of the crazy artists, you know, let his, ideas flowing and crafting crazy instruments while on the opposite you have Stradivari who is the, also the other top maker that was so careful, that was so clean, neat, and precise in his making. So you have to, yeah, it's like two sides of a coin, you know, or the ying and the yang the, the wisdom and the, and the craziness. And that was the lovely Jonathan Marolle of the workshop Vatelot-Rampal in Paris, and you'll be hearing more from him later. Thank you for joining me on the Violin Chronicles. My name is Linda Lepets and welcome back to this season and episode two of the Life of Giuseppe Guarneri, AKA del gesu. If you've enjoyed this journey through the world of the Guarneris, remember you can dive deeper and access bonus content by visiting patreon.com/the violin chronicles. In the last Patreon episode, we heard from Peter Biddulph tell his story of archival discovery and present the life of a lesser known Stradivari Hmm. Before we start, I would like to say a very big thank you to our sponsor for this episode, Libby Summers of Stamford Strings and the brazenose range of instruments she has created. You can check them out on the website, brazenose violins.co.uk. That's B-R-A-Z-E-N-O-S-E violins.co.uk. But for now, we are going to jump straight back into the story of our hero, Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu. There she was this exotic creature from a far off land with her accent in strange ways. And although she was not the nice local girl, his mother kept hinting at, she was the woman, Guarneri or Giuseppe was going to marry whether they liked it or not. And no, he was not going to leave for foreign parts with his bride like his brother. Don't worry, he assured his mother. He would stay in town for now, not that it would do him any good. The family home and finances were crumbling into disrepair and his lovely Catarina did not have an impressive dowry that would save the family coffers just yet. On October the third, 1722 in the Parish of San Pantaleone, Bartolomeo or Giuseppe married Katinarina Rotta, the daughter of an Austrian imperial soldier. She was German from the city of Vienna. “By special decree by the most reverend Vicar General, Banns having been omitted, as appears in the file, Guiseppe Guarneri of the Parish of San Matteo of this city of Cremona, the son of Guiseppe and Barbara Franchi, husband and wife, and Cate Caterina Rota, German formerly of the city of Vienna, were joined in matrimony by their vows before the church and blessed by me Ignazio Cavall, parish priest of the church of San Pantaleone, her unmarried status proven as appears in the file. The witnesses present were the noble Dominus Fabrizio Salerno Guarna, the son of Giovanni Battista of the parish of San Donato and Guiseppe Brocardo, the son of Francesco of the parish of San Pantaleone in the above mentioned city.” And now we are entering into what I would call the wilderness years. It's for our protagonist because not only was our young dashing Guarneri del gesu marrying a foreign girl of the occupying forces, but now the couple would not be living with the family on the Piazza San Dominica. No, indeed not. Anywhere but there. So my name is Jonathan Marolle I am a luthier, violin maker, restorer, and expert, as they say. I'm the co-owner of the Maison Vatelot-Rampal in Paris. A workshop that was established in, 1909 in fact,sSo I've been working in the shop since 2004 and since one year and a half. And I have the chance to own this beautiful place with with my associate and friend Cecile Paumier. Speaking to Jonathan Marolle we spoke about Guarneri del gesu’s early period of making in the 1720s when Guarneri del gesu himself was in his early twenties. Jonathan Marolle In the twenties where he, he started, so he was the son of a maker, the grandson of a maker. So it's, just the, the, the normal way. So we don't know exactly where it was in the twenties, but in the, so in 1720 something because he, he's not really appearing on the census records, but we assume that he was living on his own and assisting his father in the making of instruments. You can, you can clearly see. Details of proof that it was actually making or taking part of the process of making the instrument. When you look at instruments like the Krasner or this early, early violins that we nowadays tend to consider as early Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu, why there were some, you know, years ago considered as late filius Andrea. So you can see his hand in these instruments. This is Richard Tognetti of the Australian Chamber Orchestra playing on the Carrodus Guarneri del gesu from 1743. He's playing the Siciliano from Barch’s violin Sonata. Guarneri del gesu gets word from his brother in Venice that he's doing well, making instruments in his new job, and del gesu just cannot see how he can possibly support a wife and family if he stays with his parents who are up to their ears in debt. And the workshop on the brink of bankruptcy. So he takes his young bride and goes, well, to be honest, we don't really know where he goes, but leave home he does. And is there really any point in making violins in Cremona with so many others doing it and not that many clients in these times of depression? You might be wondering, these are the years of Stradivari's golden period and the whole region is in depression. Well, Stradivari's clients appeared to be amongst the upper classes. And in times of crisis, do things really hit the ultra rich that hard? Apparently, not so much that they would have to stop buying instruments. Surely. But for Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu just now, he was thinking maybe he could try his hand at something different. Okay. So he was making the odd violin here and there because he still needed to earn a living somehow. But he was not going to put his father's labels in his instruments, no. In fact, he was not even going to mention the older Giuseppe Guarneri. It was not like he was the most reliable character around town. He owed money to goodness, knew how many people who would probably never see a lira from him again. The family home was falling down around him, and his health was not looking promising at all. The labels Giuseppe Guarneri del gesu would put on his instruments in these years would still proclaim him to be of the famous Guarneri family, but he would have Giuseppe Guarneri Andrea Nepos. Giuseppe Guarneri, grandson of Andrea, printed on his labels, bypassing his father and making reference to his grandfather, the student of the famed Nicolo Amati. You can't get much better than that. He knew this was not the norm, and he would probably be criticized for going off and making instruments elsewhere than his father's workshop, seeing as his father was still alive. But it was out of the question for him to stay in the family home, dooming another generation to his father's bad decisions. And before we continue, we're going to take a short break to talk to our sponsor for this episode. Libby Summers the creator of the Brazenose range of violin's, violas, and cellos. Here she is. My name's Libby Summers, and I'm. Director of Stamford Strings and Brazenose violins. Stamford Strings is a violin shop in Stamford in Lincolnshire in the United Kingdom. And Brazenose Violins is our own range of instruments that we launched last year. The story of Brazenose violins really starts with, with my story both as a player and a violin maker. I trained as a violin maker at Newark School of Violin making, and I was trained to make, you know, Stradivari models. Studied the great masters, et cetera. Then I was sort of thrown into the kind of commercial world of having to run a shop and meeting lots of different customers and finding out what they want. So I started by sort of covering lots of different bases with all types of different instruments. But time and time again, people were asking for something that I didn't really feel existed in the market. There was a bit of a gap between the generic student model and the handcrafted artisan model. That's where Brazenose violins came in. I worked really hard to find a workshop that I could work with who would make beautiful violins for me based on Cremonese models, and then we could adapt them and finish them and set them up to professional standards, so that really good violin that have with great sound and playability. These are all handcrafted in Europe. Linda Lespets yeah, that really resonates with me, that gap in the market. So there, there are new instruments and it's the, what do you call it? The, the miles. You don't have so many miles on your instruments. It comes from Europe. It's made in Europe. The three little points I Remarked about this range is the, the quality, the sustainability, and the affordability that you're promoting with this range? Absolutely, and I'd just like to say from an historical point of view, this has been done before in the 15th and 16th centuries. We have inventories of. Warehouses almost in Venice of lutes, lute parts that would be imported from Fusen, from the Alps to Venice, where the Venetian lute makers would finish them, vanish them, set them up and and sell them on. So it's this tradition in instrument making and the commerce that is just carrying on. It's been done for hundreds of years. Libby Summers The wood for the Brazenose violin is European wood. The workshop that I work with, they have been managing the forest as well and getting the wood from the forest so that it's all very closely linked and they're right next to each other. I love that element. That's sustainability as well. As you say, not so many miles in the process, and we know exactly where the wood comes from. It's all traceable. Linda Lespets Who would be interested in a Brazenose instrument? Libby Summers Actually, it's quite interesting because it's more people than I thought. So the kind of target audience was, you know, young people who advanced players, perhaps going off to conservatoire. Haven't got the budget for a fully handmade instrument needs something with great sound and playability. So that's my kind of target audience and I'm passionate about that audience because I used to be a violin teacher, so that's really close to my heart. I'm really passionate about them having great instruments to play. But the instruments also appealing to an amateur adult audience as well. People who perhaps play the local orchestra are really passionate about their music, but again, don't want to. Or don't have the funds to spend on that high level instruments. So that's proving popular with both groups of people at the moment. Linda Lespets And I know here, for example, we have sometimes the opera is done outside and not everyone is comfortable taking their very expensive instrument outside. Often a lot of professional musicians will have a second. That they still want to sound good, but they don't have a mortgage on. Libby Summers Yes, absolutely. I have actually heard a couple of teachers recently say, oh, maybe I should get myself a Brazenose cello or Brazenose Violin for my teachings. Linda Lespets We've seen a few teachers who are trying to hold it together after a student has tripped over their instrument. Libby Summers And yeah, if that's exactly the kind of situation that you could avoid if you had, a cheaper instrument. Yeah. And phones, phones on music stands, man. Oh my God, I've repaired a couple of cellos that had a phone or a laptop, an iPad, go straight through the rib. Linda Lespets That's not fun. Yeah, I'm surprised at how I feel like it's the 21st century, you know, the repair 'cause and I feel like, you know how sometimes you get that on older instruments, you see like this black blob where the person had obviously played and smoked at the same time. Libby Summers Yeah, yeah. I had one of those in the, in the shop yesterday. Yeah. Big, huge black blob on it. Linda Lespets Yeah. So someone like myself and my husband, we have a small workshop and we can't keep a big, a huge stock of instruments and we like to just have a few of these mid-range instruments. Would your instruments be sort of an ideal solution to the smaller sized workshops? Looking to have just a small range of the European. Yeah. Yes, most definitely. Yeah, so I, I've already spoken to a few people who are interested and I would love to get those instruments out there to more people. It's nice to spread the love around and it's, it's all priced into to do that so that they can make a reasonable amount of money when they sell it as well. How much could people expect to pay for a Brazenose instrument? So, in 2025, the entry level Violin is 2,975. The entry level cello is 7,500 pounds. Yes, there's different models and different ranges. They're different prices, so they just sort of go up from there, really. Okay, excellent. To find out more about this range of instruments, you can visit the website@brazenoseviolins.co.uk . That's B-R-A-Z-E-N-O-S-E, violin.co.uk. And we're back here. I speak to Christopher Reuning, expert of Reuining and Sons in Boston, an all round guy to go to for the really in-depth stuff on the Guarneris. He's seen a lot of instruments and done a whole lot of research on the subject, and even I was impressed with the level of nerdism we descended to. Christopher Reuning Putting a hard line between what's made by Guarneri del gesu and his father's shop and things he made after he left his heart, because there, there are no del gesu labels at all. They don't exist, but, and there's very few affiliates, labels too. So, and then even if there were original, labels, you know, they, people have changed them. They've upgraded the violins to Guarneri del gesu. So how are you gonna say these ones were made before and after 22. So I would say my logic tells me that he was not a terribly active, professional, violin maker to the extent that he became later. So let's talk about his productivity. That's one and a half instruments per year up until 1720. Soft date, 17, 27 or 28. Then he introduces a new form, which corresponds with this violin that has the nepos label. This is the important point. He made a violin that. He calls himself Nepos of Andrea. So he's referring not to his father, but he is referring to his grandfather. So that's an interesting thing because he is, he is purposely distancing himself from his father for whatever reason. Probably the fact that his father was, you know, financially insolvent, losing the family. He was trying to separate himself and put, attach himself to the earlier generation. So. Count Cosio talked about this label in his diaries, and we know from that that those instruments were made 27, 28 around that period. And so the one existing instrument with a nepos label is the important thing. And there's another eight. Let's see, violins of that type, all with del gesu labels. So they could have been made before 27, 28, 29, or they could have been made all during that, that period. I don't know. 'cause only one with a label like that. Linda Lespets So now let's just stop for a minute and we're gonna have a talk about the word nepos, that Guarneri put in his labels. Now this word confusingly, can mean nephew or grandson, but it can also mean a, a descendant and someone, someone of your family. Hence the word nepotism that we use in English. It actually comes from the mid 17th century French word nepotisme that the French in turn had taken from the Italian Nepos, from Nepote or nephew. And we use the word nepotism in the way we do today because since the Middle Ages, Catholic Popes and bishops often appointed their air quotes nephews who were frequently their illegitimate sons to positions of power such as cardinals. This practice known as nepotism, means you show favoritism to family members. Think about it and use it in a sentence this week. Here's a hint. If you know someone in a position of power who likes giving important jobs to family members or very close friends, that's where you can slide it in. I spoke to Joe Bein about this middle period when Giuseppe Guarneri had left his father's workshop and was out there somewhere working for a few years, and before he comes back to support his parents and those instruments that are made and the labels that may have been placed in them and and what's happened to them now. Yeah. Well I find the period like from the twenties to the thirties, I find that quite interesting. I find that quite mysterious. He's making period. And that's the period where he has those labels, doesn't he? Which I'm thinking maybe have been taken out historically. People have taken out. Yeah. Do you think people took those out? Joe Bein Not live, just pictures of it. And so yeah. Unfortunately, I think that that label might be like the label. Workshops, however you wanna put it, where it just was, you know, those things came and came out with far too much regularity, you know, for those of us who care about them now and wanna look and be like, what was that exactly? Linda Lespets Yeah, because do, I'm wondering, I'm wondering if people didn't understand that it was del gesu and they wanted to put a del gesu label in and that's why they were taken out. Joe Bein Yeah, I mean, that's the simplest explanation. It's usually the right one, you know, and again, like with the Sotto diciplina label and the Stradivari instruments, it's like, no, it's, unfortunately, it's more commercially advantageous to have something that's labeled Stradivari than Stradivari's workshop. Or made under the, under the tutelage of, Linda Lespets and when I saw like the Filius Andrea, he was so in, he was basically bankrupt and he owed a lot of money to a lot of people. And I'm wondering if del gesu put that label in so that, you know, if he'd continued to put his father's label in, maybe creditors could have come and taken, taken it like said. Joe Bein I think yeah, I mean that's kind of a, I mean, that's a Serafin thing like actually the violin over my shoulder here, that's a Serafin. And it's not just a serafin thing, but of course, like even back then, just like we are today, it's like, you know, people wanted to pay less taxes and, you know, there are go thrillers that just were never were never labeled. Or there's these Goffrillers that have Bergonzi labels in them. There are, you know, there are Serafin out there that the endocrinology puts them. You know, the one over my shoulder is called the Sacconi Loan Expo and it's one of the two or three finest Linda Lespets and it how did that name is quite funny. Joe Bein It's pretty self-explanatory. Sacconi loan. I know. Well, so there was a, so basically like there was a, in like the early seventies in New York, they threw a giant birthday party for Simone Sacconi. Okay. And, and basically like all the, all the people, all the, in the trade in the United States, like, well what would you do if you threw a birthday party? For Sacconi I, I forget if it was his 80th birthday, I think, or something like that. And it's like, well, what would you do? It's like, well, you'd call all your friends and they would bring over like all the best instruments in bows. So like the Hellier was there and there were very fine things there, and that was there or that Serafin was there as well. And there were beautiful bows. And there's a book you can buy it, but Serafin for example, like he put, he seemingly put labels in his instruments that were predated. So then when he, if, if he made an instrument like that in say, 1743, if somebody came along and said like, oh, you made a new instrument. Then you're, you're part of the Guild and Venice, you're part of the Union of Makers, like you owe us tax on your new work. He would say, well, no, I already made this one. Look, it's labeled 1730. It's labeled 1732. Linda Lespets Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's, it's this financial, it's before this financial year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's labeled 1732, so I, you can't tax me on it. I've already, it's not a new violin Joe Bein Yes. I mean, a tax avoidance and, and, and especially to your point, because Guarneri was so financially destitute, and then meanwhile, I mean, could you imagine trying to build violins in the immense shadow that must have, yeah that Stradivari undoubtedly cast bit of an inferiority complex. I mean, you have no money. You have these, you have this huge debt. You have this super talented brother who left to Mantua. I think he was bad with his, he was, he wasn't good with his money. Yeah. You have this other super talented son who gets, you know, drawn to Venice and like, you know, you're supposed to be this like, you know, century, you know, dynasty of makers. Linda Lespets With the Guarneri family and they, you know, that that's, they were supposed to rival, you know, the other families in Cremona and I think he was probably like a bit of a whinger. I don't think he was particularly nice to be around. I think that's why they left, like, 'cause he could have stayed like, you know, his kids could have stayed, but they didn't. He was probably, he was a grumpy old man. Joe Bein Yeah, I mean, something, something's there for sure, but it's, he had the, he had the very unenviable task. Yeah. I mean he had the very unenviable task of, again, trying to, trying to build instruments in this immense shadow and, you know, he's one of the greatest makers of all time, but context is everything. But yeah, and, and then you see these beautiful Guarneri Filius Andrea instruments with this like, you know, stunning orange red varnish. There's some pictured in the Hill book where they have this sort of like two piece back with this irregular curl. Like you, you, you, there's one famously called the Rierson that's I think pictured in the Hill book. And, but you, if you look at it, there's an arching to it. Like if you took a photo of it, you get this, like there's a pinch to the arching that's like between the F hole and the center seam. Mm. And that's like, that's the Filius Andrea thing to me. And so here is this crossover period when the father, Filius Andrea was working with his two boys, and we can see whispers of the two young sons work in his instruments until, of course, Pietro leaves for Venice in 1717. Linda Lespets Giuseppe moves out of home in their early 1720s, and so these works can sometimes go either way. Are they a Del gesu’s or a Filius Andrea, or a bit of both. And just quickly coming back to the missing labels in instruments. In fact, count Cosio collector and meticulous note maker of the 18th century would take out labels of violins for his own records and collections to catalogue them, I know it's painful. He was in the shop, he's working there. You see his work and the, you know, some of these scrolls match later fiddles, you know, and then just like you see some of these Peter of Venice Fs where like the f holes, like the upper wings just sort of terminate and they don't have any like little gothic spurs to them. They don't have a little like, point to the, to the edges of the wings. Like they just, they're just more uniform. And there's just this like really nice circle at the top of the wing. And then you can see in some of these scrolls, like they have the gouge marks going around, which is a very Peter Guarneri of Venice trait or Peter Venice. Like around the, the ball. Oh yeah, yeah. Like you see all the gouge marks, like Yeah. And that's a very Peter Guarneri of Venice thing traditionally. And so you can see that in some of the, you know, like violins from 17, 14 or 15, for example. Linda Lespets But I feel like even the del Gesu, as you always see the little facets on the scrolls, do you know what I'm talking about? Joe Bein On the Violin, you see the little, the gouge marks. Well if, if there is a second fall loop, like, you know, 'cause obviously like at the end that second turn almost like completely disappears. I mean, on the flat bit, you know, the flat, the flat of the turn not the curve. You always see those. And then they're, and they're like this, you know, they're like, and, and the ears almost like point up, like if you were looking at a clock, they point at 10 and two. Instead of the Carlo Bergonzi which is just like as straight as the, you know, as a, as a dowel, going right through the middle of a scroll. And now we are going to start to look into the construction choices and techniques of Guarneri Del Gesu, and I will be doing this at the end of each episode for our Patreon listeners. If you're not a Patreon yet, then come on over and sign up and get access to extra episodes on patreon.com/theviolinchronicles. If you've enjoyed this journey through the world of the Guarneris, remember you can dive deeper and access extra episodes such as the one I did recently on Fritz Kreisler with Eric Wen and Biddulph Recordings where we look at Kreisler's life and playing whilst listening to music from the remastered albums of the Biddulph recordings. And he actually, you know, he actually had a very interesting life and career. So go check it out. It's the only place you can, and that brings us to the end of today's episode on the tumultuous life of Giuseppe Guarneri, the man who would become known as del gesu. What a chapter In October 17, 22, Giuseppe probably went against the grain of his family's wishes, excuse the pun, and customs by marrying Katarina Rotta, a German woman from Vienna, and the daughter of an Austrian occupying soldier. The marriage itself was rushed, skipping the usual public announcements, but facing, crushing family debt and the father's failing reputation. Giuseppe Guarneri made a crucial decision that he and Katarina would not live in the family home. He abandoned the family workshop and for the next six years our protagonist essentially drops off the map. What did he do? Well, we know he didn't stop working completely, but he did stop working with his father. Determined to set out on his own. He began putting a new label in his instruments. Giuseppe Guarneri, Andrea Nepos proudly proclaiming himself the grandson of Andrea Guarneri and sidestepping his rather unreliable father entirely. It was a bold move, leaving home, marrying a foreigner, breaking from tradition and all that jazz. It kind of gives us a window into the life and character of Giuseppe. But join us next time as we track down what happens to Giuseppe and Katarina during those mysterious six years and see how this period of radical independence shaped the sound of one of history's great violin makers. In the first part of this bonus Patreon episode, we'll hear from Jonathan Marolle from the maison Vatelot-Rampal in Paris, and we get a bit deep and personal about how he feels about how Del Gesu instruments are bought and sold today. And I learn a fun fact that connects him. Jonathan to our wonderful del gesu. After that, I'll be discussing the wood del gesu used for his instruments with Antoine my husband also a violin maker, and we'll be going over the characteristics of his wood choices, how he used it and where it came from. A very big thank you to my lovely guests, Christopher Reuning, Jonathan Marolle, and Joe Bein. And of course our sponsor, the lovely Libby Summers and her Brazenose range of instruments. And to finish up, here's Richard Tognetti from the Australian Chamber Orchestra playing a bit of Bach on the Carrodus del gesu of 1743.