Ep 40. Del Gesu Part 4. "The Master and His Cello: Exploring the Hands of Del Gesu with Julian Thompson"

The Violin Chronicles: Interview with Julian Thompson on His Antique Cello In this episode of the Violin Chronicles, we sit down with Julian Thompson, a distinguished cellist with the Australian Chamber Orchestra since 2006. Julian shares fascinating insights into the unique 1729 Giuseppe Guarneri cello he's been playing for the past eight years. We delve into the history, craftsmanship, and intricate details of this extraordinary instrument, including its complex provenance and distinctive features. Julian also discusses the quirks of playing such a historic cello, from its responsiveness to various climates to how its rich history impacts his playing style. Additionally, we touch upon the differences in construction techniques between Baroque and modern instruments, exploring how these methods influence their sound and playability. Join us for an in-depth look at one of the most remarkable cellos in existence and gain a deeper appreciation for the artistry involved in its creation and performance. Transcript Welcome back to the Violin Chronicles. In this episode, I'll be talking to Julian Thompson, cellist extraordinaire, who has been playing with the Australian Chamber Orchestra since 2006. Overly accomplished musician that he is. We are going to concentrate on his instrument in this interview. What is it? I hear you asking. Well, I will let him do the honours. Julian Thompson I'm Julian Thompson. I play cello with the Australian Chamber Orchestra for the last. 20 years. Linda Lespets Wow. And, and what, what instrument do you play? Julian Thompson So, I am lucky enough to have had in my hot hands for probably about the last eight years a beautiful 1729 Giuseppe Guari cello which I understand has a, possibly, has a slightly complicated providence. Linda Lespets Do you know when it sort of changed identity? Julian Thompson I, I don't know exactly when. I just know that there's been quite a lot of speculation that the hand of Jesu may have played a part in the, the, the table of the cello and maybe the scroll as well. So it's, it's that cello, I think it's really late. And there's another cello that certainly has a lot of Del Gesu a different form, apparently that one. This one's still in the, in the older form. The, the fathers, the Guarneri Filius Andrea, that's right. But the, the experts out there seem to say that yeah, because of some of the features, the specific features of, of the wood and the scroll and, and the, maybe the f holes as well. That they think that there's certainly the hand of Del Gesù in part of this cello, so that's pretty special. Linda Lespets Yeah. Yeah, because there's the other cello is the messias I think it's called. Mm-hmm. Where they say it's all Del Gesù Mm. So there's this sort of idea that he never made cello, but he has, he has indeed made a cello, a full one. And then why not? Bits of one? Well, I guess you can imagine if he, if he's around working in the workshop and Giuseppe's getting older, then you would imagine there would be, I guess an increasing amount of work done. Julian Thompson And there's also been talk about, and you, you probably know a lot more about this, about. Sort of illnesses at various points and whether that meant that Giuseppe Guarneri wasn't in the studio for a while and then, you know Del Gesù maybe had to take the reins there more, more solidly for a period. Linda Lespets Yeah. So what happened was Del Gesu, he moved out of home when in 1722, he left. And his brother Pietro of Venice had left in 1717 to go to Venice. That, so it was just him. His dad was kind of really bad with money and pretty much like very heavily indebted. So Del Gesù was like a young man. He was married and so he moved away. Because his, it was just a black hole basically working in his dad's workshop because he owed so much, so much money to so many different people. Yeah. So he moved away, but then in 1729, 1730, when your cello's made, he had, he was very ill. He went to hospital. And normally if you went to hospital, then it was like you were dying. Yeah. You didn't wanna hang around in a hospital. But then he sort of miraculously recovered. He comes home, but he was, he couldn't really do, he couldn't really make a full instrument again. Right. He could make scrolls, but that was it. And then Del Gesù sort of comes back to help his father because his parents are sort of in bit of dire straits at that point. Yeah. And so you can imagine that there was just this cello, it just needed the belly made and he finished it. And put the label in. And the other one, the other cello that is like a hundred percent Guarneri Del Gesù that they say it's a hundred percent Del Gesù The label is 1731. So that's two years later. Right. And that's the very last label of the father a Guarneri Filius Andrea. Okay. That we sort of know of. So maybe he was there and he was like, look, I'm just gonna make this cello. His dad, like dad's label him, and that, that's it, that's the end of the father's sort of official work output. But yeah it can, it can make sense that the belly was made by Del Gesù because the way instruments were made then are different to how they're made today. They were made in a different order of steps. So for example, today you'll make the rib structure. You'll make the front and the back. So then you've got the body, and then you make the scroll. And you put the scroll. Like you encrust the scroll in. You stick the scroll on. But the Renaissance no, the Baroque Instruments, you made the rib structure, then you made the scroll, and then you nailed the scroll onto the rib structure. So you had sort of like looking like a bit like a tennis racket. Then with that frame, you made the back, you finished the back, you stuck the back on, and then the very last step was to make the belly, right? Yeah. Right. So maybe the, the, the scroll, the ribs and the back were made and the label was already in Maybe that label was already in. And then when Izzy comes back, like maybe. A year. Maybe if he comes back in 1730, say, he just goes, I'll just finish it. I'll make the, the belly. Yeah. And, and that's it. Get that thing, get that thing finished and sell it. Try and get, get out of a bit more debt. Yeah, and maybe there was a bit of, there was one more bit of cello because you can tell like, is the wood on your instrument? Julian Thompson It's, it's quite mismatching, isn't it? Like the, the ribs aren't the same as the back and the Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting, it's an interesting cello for sure. It's, yeah, the, the front of it is, is, I think it's three pieces, but it's actually quite hard to see because the, the grain is really well matched. It's really fine grained on the front and kind of even across. But then the back is this really coarse grained. Linda Lespets I think, is it Poplar? Is it, it's slab cut, isn't it? It's cut. Like, instead of being cut like a piece of cake, yeah, it's cut like. Like length, you cut straight across the Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a totally different texture of the back. Julian Thompson Yeah, really different. And it's got this, like, it's almost like someone, I'm not quite sure what's happened at the bottom, but it's like someone's left an iron on it. It's got a really different colour of varnish down the bottom. Much darker kind of the shape of an iron. Oh, okay. Yeah. I don't know if Yeah, what's happened there, but it's and then, yeah, the ribs are, the ribs are different again, so it's so they look pretty uniform, the back's its own thing. And then the front's its own thing. And the scroll, from what I remember, it's, it's, it's not maple, is it? I think it's beach, maybe different wood. Julian Thompson That's not maple, not maple. And it's almost like he was looking around and he just grabbed whatever bits of wood were hanging around. Mm-hmm. Absolutely it does. Although, although the front of it, I'm, I'm often, when I look at this cello, I'm amazed. Like, you, you really can't even see where the joins are because the grainage, it just seems really well matched, so that that part of it at least looks really deliberate. It's very fine. Linda Lespets Can I just see the belly again? Julian Thompson Yeah. Do you think it's almost, could it almost be like violin wood that they used for. Because normally you'd use like a thicker wood for a cello, wouldn't it? Like the wider green lines? Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it does look more sort of violin, fineness of the grain, and it's all the way across it. I, I played at another, another Guarneri there for a bit at 1721 Guarneri, which it had much, much coarser grainage. It was interesting because it had, I think it had the grainage. I guess you'd kind of, I, I don't know if this makes any sense, but you kind of feel that intuitively you might want to put a grainage on the, on the base side and a finer grainage on the treble side, but I think that Yeah, that's what some makers do. Linda Lespets Yeah. They do that I think that Grancino actually had the opposite of that. So it had really coarse grainage on the treble side. Cool. And do you know so your cello's called the Weiss cello? We, yep. Is that like Weiss Bars? Not Weiss Bars no, not be confused with Weiss bars. No, no. So this, I was like, maybe he would, maybe that philanthropist like made all his money from ice cream. Julian Thompson No, no, this, so this cello was, given gifted to the ACO by Peter Weis, the Australian businessman and sort of fashion designer. Oh yeah. And he fashioned not ice cream. Yeah. And he, loved, he loved the cello, he played the cello as a younger man. And was always very interested in, you know, supporting the arts and supporting the cello in particular. And so Tippy, our principal cello found this cello at Bears must be about, about 16 years ago or something like that. And then Peter provided, the funds and the support to buy it and bring it back. Yeah, so we've had it since then. Linda Lespets Cool. Cool. Do you feel like playing on an instrument that has the, like the history that your one does, is it different to play sort of, is it different playing an instrument in the knowledge of the history that it's had as opposed to say, a modern instrument? Julian Thompson I think, yeah, look, I do think it's different. I think you pay more attention to the personality of the instrument. There's something about. The gravitas that the tool brings to the table that makes you pay attention. Maybe work a little bit harder to find the voice of that instrument or to match your voice with the voice of that instrument, whereas maybe with a more modern instrument, I mean, they've got their own personalities too, and they need, you know, playing in and treatment in a certain way. But maybe in some ways you feel a bit more like you. You bring your personality to that relationship and you try and shape the instrument to your personality because you know it's young and malleable, and hopefully it'll, it'll develop in, into the traits that you would like the instrument to have. You know this. Whereas playing this, you know, almost 300 year old Giuseppe Guarneri, it's got pretty strong ideas about what it likes to do and what it doesn't like to do. And then you sort of mould your playing quite a lot around its strengths. Yeah. Wow. Linda Lespets Do you reckon you're gonna do something for its 300th birthday? It's coming up. Julian Thompson Yeah. We're gonna have a massive party. It's gonna be a blinder. And the cello can just stand in the corner. Yeah. Give it a drink. Yeah, exactly. Little wedge, your little champagne. Yeah. Yeah, no, look, it's a really, it's a really beautiful cello. It, I think having the, the softer back gives it some really interesting characteristics. It certainly, it needs a lot of warming up and a certain kind of playing to make it really sound its best. And somehow I feel like, and this is just intuitive, I feel like that's partly to do with the, the strength of the wood in the back that needs a different kind of treatment. Linda Lespets Yeah. Yeah. It'll probably have bigger thicknesses I imagine as well. Right. With slab cut wood, normally you have to leave it a bit thicker. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because it's less structurally strong than, so what's it been like, your journey playing with the instrument? What was it like when, you know, when you first, do you remember the first time you played on it? Julian Thompson I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, that would've been in the early days when it came out to Australia and we all had a go on it then. And this cello. It's just one of those really celloy cellos, you know, there are cellos out there that are, that have a really sort of tenor voice. And there are some cellos out there that have a really, you know, a really basey voice. And I think this cello just has that archetypical, beautiful, strong, woody, rich cello voice in the kind of baritone register. Super silky, even across the board, beautifully woody textured. You can really hear the wood in this cello. Yeah, and it's a really sort of tactile cello to play. You can really get into it and feel a lot with your hands certainly more than some other cellos that just kind of go and do their own thing. Yeah, so for me, this cello really has a really sort of archetypical cello voice. Yeah. It has those sweet, sexy, low tones and you know, it's got all the, all the sweet tops as well. But this cello you have to up, especially up the top. It's one of those cellos that you can kind of dig into as hard as you want and can, and it'll still keep giving you rewards a bit like. I mean, I, I know some of these the Del Gesù violins, you have to attack them quite differently to the way you attack some of the str violins, for example, the Stradivari’s sort of go and you have to give them enough space to go. Whereas the del Gesù violins, you can really dig deep and just keep digging deeper and it just keeps punching out. The good sound, I, I think there are, it's probably the same with violins, but some cellos. You know, once you start the string speaking, it's, you have to be cautious with how much you manipulate the string vibrational sound because it can almost disturb the frequency that's resonating inside the belly. And so if, if you're not careful, you can actually make complications. Whereas this instrument has beautiful internal resonance, but you can really shape the notes a lot within each note without having to worry too much about that disturbance. Linda Lespets And do you find does it change a lot when you travel? Because you do a lot of travel, international travel. Does it do, do you, do you, now that you've been with it for such a long time mm-hmm. Do you sort of know its little quirks, like what's gonna happen to it if you go somewhere really dry or humid? Julian Thompson Yeah, yeah. No, it's she's a bit of a fickle mistress in that regard I mean, look, all instruments are, but some more than others. Certainly this instrument, yes, I know, I know its habits quite well. So there are certain climates that the instrument really loves and sounds great in. And so the, the cooler climates and drier climates are when the instrument really s sits together and integrates its best. And yeah, so, so winter in Australia is great. Sort of shoulder seasons in Europe are great. What it really doesn't like. The hot, humid summers of Sydney. And so that's, that's often a bit of a bummer because it, it's just like, almost like you would imagine, it's like the wood becomes, it comes a bit soggy, you know? I mean, even though I keep it in a pretty climate controlled environment, it's still. It absorbs, it must absorb a, a decent amount of humidity from the air and it really changes how well the thing speaks. It still sounds great, but it's just not as easy to play. And then, and then of course you go from a hot, humid Australian summer to a cold European, dry European winter, and then the wood has to adjust to that again. So. As a player, you just have to be very sort of understanding and nurturing of the instrument and you know, push it as far as you think it can be pushed, but not, not push it too far and work around. Linda Lespets Yeah. Changes. Yeah. And so for people listening to this, I have a lot of American listeners, Uhhuh, you are in the ACO and your A CO rehearsal studios. Can you explain exactly where they are? Right. The Australian Chamber Orchestra. That's right. Rehearsal studios. Yeah. Julian Thompson So yeah, the Australian Chamber Orchestra Rehearsal spaces Now. Just on the far side of the, of, of Harbor Bridge. Of the Harbor Bridge, yep. The harbor bridge. And out on a pier. So actually over water, over Sydney Harbor. You're literally on the water. On the water. If you like drill a hole down, you're in the water. That's right. Yeah. So it is a potentially humid environment. It's all Look, it's all, it's all climate controlled inside. Yeah. It's a brand new building, right? Brand new building. It's beautiful. Sydney is. Sydney does get pretty humid over summer, but like, I mean, I lived in Indiana for a while and you know, I was very surprised the first summer I had in Indiana it was, it was like a hundred percent humidity in 35 degrees. It was a total surprise. And winter was like minus 10 and snow. Yeah. At the same time, maybe, you know, the fact that it goes through these changes, it's part of how the instrument ages, I suppose. If it's, yeah, I don't know. I don't know the difference. It'd be interesting to see the difference. Like, it's hard, you can't really do a control like every instrument's different, but to have a, you know, instruments that sit in museums all the time Mm. And are not particularly played, but have really controlled temperature as opposed to one that's out and about. Julian Thompson Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, you have to imagine it must be, these instruments have seen a lot of seasons, a lot of different, playing a lot of. Possibly fellow periods of not being played that much for a while, and that all has to play a role. I mean, you must see it with, with, with, you know, all the instruments that, that you see that these instruments, if, if they're not played for a decent period of time, even weeks or sometimes days or months, when you come back to them, they, they sound really different. Like they need to be played back in. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I, I always think that, you know, the cumulative vibrations of almost 300 years of playing different things at different pictures with different strings in different places, it has to play a role on the evolution of that wood and how it fits in that form. Linda Lespets Yeah. They're almost like little living beings and it's made with an organic product and yeah. And every. It's, I like the fact that it's almost impossible to do to approach it scientifically. Mm-hmm. You can't have, there's no control. Every instrument is different. You can control things to a certain point, but at the end of the day, it's like saying, you know, all my kids are the same. Yeah. Like, 'cause I'm, they're all, every instrument is different, will react differently depending on what's happening to it. And you could, you could use the same materials, same person, same thing. You'll end up with something completely different. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do they all have their own DNA which I like. Julian Thompson I mean, that's, that's one of the joys though too of, of playing these old instruments is that, you know, they are a bit moody and you have, with that moodiness, you have days where, you know, you really have to think hard about how you get the best out of the instrument that day. And other days though, when obviously the instrument's feeling great, when it can just do whatever, and it sounds fantastic. I don't know. I feel like if you had an instrument that just sounded amazing all the time, which, you know, these instruments do sound great all the time, but within a variety that then the responsibility's entirely with you. And that's tough. You never blame the instrument. That's right. Right. Now we, we did this crazy crazy film shoot for the ACO over in, Narlu station over in the northwest of WA for this film, this surf film that we were making at the time, as you do as a chamber orchestra. And as part of that, we played a gig over there and it's, it's like full desert meets the sea kind of country. And we played a gig in the old shearing shed. It's an old sheep station over there. And played a gig for a bunch of, you know, fishermen and surfers in a shearing shed on Nalu Station. That was pretty cool. Was it hot? Man, they get hot. It was so hot. It was brutal. Did you get some fleece? Did they give you a bit of. Sheep F fleece? Nah, no fleece. Were they, they weren't shearing, were they? No, not shearing at that time. We did get some great footage and made a pretty pretty bang and film, so that was cool. Can you see it still? Yeah, it's out there. The reef, check it out. Not to the reef. Yeah, the reef. Yeah. It does look pretty much every, every summer season I need to get the edges reglued in some spot or another. So that's just a yearly cycle. That's, yeah. That's crazy. So that could be your sweat. You could have corrosive sweat. I've heard, is it up That is corrosive sweat? Is it up the top there? No, it tends to acidic. You could have acidic sweat. Yeah. No, it's got, so this one has a little plastic overlay. Oh. On that, That's it tends to be. And so this is something I wonder about too, that different people and how they play, create different stresses on different instruments. 'cause I find, oh yeah, the, the cellos that I play maybe because of how I play and I, I sometimes I play a lot of p cardo stuff and, they always seem to open in about the same spot. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And like maybe your bow stroke and like the bits that you make vibrate on the instrument. That's right. And it's on, it's on these, these granaries, but also on my modern instruments as well. And they often come open in exactly the same spot and need to be re reglued every season. Ah, that's so interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you're like, yeah, no, it's my, my, your style of ungluing. That's it. Yeah. I'd like to thank Jillian for speaking to me and taking the time to tell us about his instrument. Then this is the end of this episode, but join me for the next episode where we continue on with the life and times of our hero, Guarneri Del Gesù. Remember to sign up and subscribe so you'll always know when new episodes are coming out. And a big thank you to my Patreons. Once again, if you're not a member of Patreon, go over to patreon.com/the violin chronicles and sign up and for extra content and extra episodes that you won't get on the other platforms.