Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders ( Inspired and Empowered ), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed , which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss: • The rise of “product management theater” • Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions • The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice • How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry • The most important skills for PMs to build • How to know if you’re on a “feature team” • The potential disruption of product management by AI • Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model • Four new competencies required for successful product organizations — Brought to you by: • Sprig —Build a product people love • Eppo —Run reliable, impactful experiments • Vanta —Automate compliance. Simplify security. — Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty — Where to find Marty Cagan: • X: https://twitter.com/cagan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/ • Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Marty’s background (04:46) His take on the state of product management (12:08) Product management theater (18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams (24:48) Skills of a real product manager (29:27) The product management reckoning is here (32:05) Taking control of your product management career (34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice (40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community (44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures (47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era (49:44) The changing landscape of product management (52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI (55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed (01:02:05) The product operating model (01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams (01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops (01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers (01:18:06) Lightning round — Referenced: • Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model : https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336 • Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love : https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507 • Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products : https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X • The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/ • Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/ • Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/ • Linear: https://linear.app/ • How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product • Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/ • Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/ • Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/ • What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum • CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner • PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training • Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira • Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value : https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309 • Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/ • Ben Erez’s LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/ • Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/ • The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/ • Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/ • Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/ • Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/ • Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/ • Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/ • Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/ • Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/ • Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ • The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/ • Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/ • Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making : https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067 • What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies : https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q • Rivian: https://rivian.com/ • AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000 • Leslie Lamport’s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking • Joan Didion’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/ . For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com . — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe