About this episode
Dear friends, In memory of Joanna Macy, who passed away on July 19th, we are republishing episode #12 of The Way Out Is In podcast series, with an introduction by Jo Confino. A scholar of Buddhism, systems theory, and deep ecology, Joanna Macy (1929 -2025), PhD, was one of the most respected voices in the movements for peace, justice, and ecology. She interweaved her scholarship with learnings from six decades of activism, had written twelve books, and laught an empowerment approach known as the Work That Reconnects . In episode 12 (November, 2021), presenters Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino were joined by Joanna Macy to discuss the relevance of Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings to the crises we face today as a species; the energy of simplicity; truth-telling and the power of facing the truth; the grounds for transformation; impermanence; interbeing. Joanna recollects what Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings and activism have meant to her, and shares a special meeting with him in the early 1980s, during a UN peace conference, when Thay read one of his essential poems in public for the first time. Joanna’s activism, forged during many campaigns, and her practice and study of Theravada Buddhism, shine through in her priceless advice about facing the current social and ecological crisis, grieving for all creation, and finding the power to deal with the heartbreaking present-day reality. She also addresses how grief and joy can coexist in one person, and how to be present for life even in the midst of struggle. Their conversations will take you from the current “great unravelling” and the “gift of death” to Rilke’s poetry; the magic of love as solution; active hope; the contemporary relevance of the ancient Prophecy of the Shambhala Warriors; the possibility of a “great turning”. And can you guess her aspirations at 92? Could a swing be just the perfect place to discuss the evanescence of life? Brother Phap Huu shares a lesson in patience from Thay, and adds to the teachings of touching suffering, recognizing and embracing the truth, consumption of consciousness, finding balance, and smiling at life. Jo reads a special translation of one of Rainer Maria Rilke’s Duino Elegies , expands upon some of Joanna’s core books and philosophies, and recollects “irreplaceable” advice about overwork. The episode ends with a guided meditation by Joanna Macy. Co-produced by the Plum Village App: https://plumvillage.app/ And Global Optimism: https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation: https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Lotus in a Sea of Fire (1967) https://plumvillage.org/books/1967-hoa-sen-trong-bien-lua-lotus-in-a-sea-of-fire/ Call Me By My True Names https://plumvillage.org/books/call-me-by-my-true-names/ Celestial Bodhisattvas https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/buddhas-and-bodhisattvas-celestial-buddhas-and-bodhisattvas Rainer Maria Rilke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainer_Maria_Rilke Duino Elegies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duino_Elegies The Tenth Elegy https://www.tellthestory.co.uk/translatedpoemduino10.html The Book of Hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Hours Satipaṭṭhāna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana World as Lover, World as Self https://www.parallax.org/product/world-as-lover-world-as-self-a-guide-to-living-fully-in-turbulent-times/ ‘The Shambhala Warrior’ https://www.awakin.org/read/view.php?tid=236 The Shambhala Warrior Prophecy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dbM93FALE Bardo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo ‘Entering the Bardo’ https://emergencemagazine.org/op_ed/entering-the-bardo/ Maitreya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya Ho Chi Minh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh Śūnyatā https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81 Svabhava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svabhava Kṣitigarbha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%A3itigarbha Parallax Press https://www.parallax.org/ Ānāpānasati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati Satipaṭṭhāna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana Quotes “Do not be afraid of feeling pain for the world. Do not be afraid of the suffering, but take it. That’s what a bodhisattva learns to do, and that makes your heart very big.” “Life is only difficult for those who pick and choose. You just take it. And that helps you feel whole, and maybe flying with the birds helps you be with the deep levels of hell. But this is life and it’s all given to us and it’s given free.” “It doesn’t take a poet; all of us can feel that there are times when a shadow passes over our mood and we taste the tears. Taste the tears. They’re salty. It’s the living Earth. We are part of this.” “All Rilke says is, ‘Give me the time so I can love the things.’ As if that’s the great commandment. So I want more time to do what I’m made to do. Why else do we have these hearts with more neurons in them than our brains? Why else are we given eyes that can see the beauty of this world and ears that can hear such beautiful poetry? And lungs that can breathe the air. We have to use these things for tasting and loving our world. And if she’s ailing, now is the time to love her more.” “You are the environment; the environment is not outside of you.” “We are in a space without a map. With the likelihood of economic collapse and climate catastrophe looming, it feels like we are on shifting ground, where old habits and old scenarios no longer apply. In Tibetan Buddhism, such a space or gap between known worlds is called a bardo . It is frightening. It is also a place of potential transformation. As you enter the bardo, there facing you is the Buddha Akshobhya. His element is Water. He is holding a mirror, for his gift is Mirror Wisdom, reflecting everything just as it is. And the teaching of Akshobhya’s mirror is this: Do not look away. Do not avert your gaze. Do not turn aside. This teaching clearly calls for radical attention and total acceptance.” “We all have an appointment, and that appointment is with life. And if we can touch that in each moment, our life will become more beautiful when we allow ourselves to arrive at that appointment.” “Even in despair, we have to enjoy life, because we see life as beautiful; [we see] that planet Earth is still a miracle.” “We know we are still alive, and because we are alive, anything is possible. So let us take care of the situation in a more calm and mindful way.” “Even wholesome things can become a distraction if you make them take the place of your sheer presence to life.” “Maybe this really will be the last chapter. But I’m here, and how fortunate I am to be here. And I have imagined that it’s so wonderful to be here.” “Impermanence: the fragrance of our day.”