Mindful Economics: In Conversation with Kate Raworth (Episode #74)

Welcome to episode 74 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living , a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh ’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives. In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest Kate Raworth , the creator of Doughnut Economics, to discuss from spirituality to new economic thinking; individual, community, and planetary boundaries; putting ideas into practice; practicing true love and no self; avoiding the trap of fame; and much more. Kate shares her journey into reimagining economics; the encounters that shaped her vision; regenerative enterprises and the inspiring communities making new economics a reality; and the discoveries made after attending a Plum Village retreat with her family. Kate Raworth is the creator of the Doughnut of social and planetary boundaries, co-founder of Doughnut Economics Action Lab , and author of the internationally bestselling Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think like a 21st Century Economist . She is a Senior Associate at Oxford University’s Environmental Change Institute , and Professor of Practice at Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences . Over the past 25 years, Kate’s career has taken her from working with micro-entrepreneurs in the villages of Zanzibar to co-authoring the Human Development Report for the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in New York, followed by a decade as Senior Researcher at Oxfam. Read more about her work on her website . Co-produced by the Plum Village App: https://plumvillage.app/ And Global Optimism: https://globaloptimism.com/ With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation: https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ List of resources Online course: Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet https://plumvillage.org/courses/zen-and-the-art-of-saving-the-planet Interbeing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing Doughnut Economics Action Lab https://doughnuteconomics.org Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think like a 21st Century Economist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnut_Economics:_Seven_Ways_to_Think_Like_a_21st-Century_Economist ‘Five Contemplations before Eating’ https://www.parallax.org/mindfulnessbell/article/five-contemplations-before-eating/ Biocentrism https://www.britannica.com/topic/biocentrism Lily Cole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lily_Cole The Raft Is Not the Shore https://www.parallax.org/product/the-raft-is-not-the-shore/ ‘Begin Anew’ https://plumvillage.org/articles/begin-anew Club of Rome https://www.clubofrome.org/ The Art of Power https://www.parallax.org/product/art-of-power/ Herman Daly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Daly Chants : ‘The Three Refuges’ https://plumvillage.org/library/chants/the-three-refuges Wellbeing Alliance https://www.culturehealthandwellbeing.org.uk/ Economy for the Common Good https://www.econgood.org Elinor Ostrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom International Monetary Fund (IMF) https://www.imf.org/en/Home TED Talk: A Healthy Economy Should Be Designed to Thrive, Not Grow https://www.ted.com/talks/kate_raworth_a_healthy_economy_should_be_designed_to_thrive_not_grow?subtitle=en Barbara Ward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Ward,_Baroness_Jackson_of_Lodsworth Marilyn Waring https://marilynwaring.com/ Donella Meadows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donella_Meadows Janine Benyus https://biomimicry.org/janine-benyus Quotes “Doughnut economics is one way of trying to create an economics that actually is based on this planet, and lives on Earth. Economics, when you go back to ancient Greek, literally means the art of household management.” “We need to create economies that are distributive by design, that share resources with all, that are regenerative by design, that regenerate the living systems, and that go beyond growth. That’s the essence of doughnut economics.” “A volition and aspiration is a nutriment. It’s an energy to help us keep going. And the Buddha also gives us another antidote: aimlessness, which is to help us have an aspiration, but not think that, once we’ve arrived and completed that aspiration, that’s when we finally touch happiness.” “Man is not our enemy. It is ignorance, it is discrimination, it is ideology.” “I have arrived, I am home.” “In the light of Plum Village teaching, that joy and happiness is not money, it is not success in wealth and in fame, but it is in the mindfulness that in this moment I have eyes to see, I have a family to love, I have a community to be with. I can forgive my parents, my ancestors, because I am their continuation. I am renewing them in this moment.” “I wrote a book, but actually it’s the practitioner, the people who want to try it and do it, that turn ideas on a page into a reality.” “The Buddha did not say that on the shore there’s no suffering. It’s how to be free, even in our suffering, how to still touch happiness while there are storms and misunderstandings.” “Don’t try to be the movement, join the movement.” “One of the chapters I wrote in Doughnut Economics is called ‘Nurture Human Nature’, and it starts with looking at ‘rational economic man’, a character that is taught in mainstream economics; it’s the individual, the autonomous, atomized individual, self-interested. He’s got money in his hand, ego in his heart, calculating in his head, nature at his feet. He hates work. He loves luxury. And he knows the price of everything, and he can never get enough.” “The definition of economics is the management of scarce resources for unlimited wants, the self-interest. So the models we make of ourselves remake us. An economist called Robert Frank and his colleagues did research finding that students who go to university from year one to year two to year three of studying economics, the more they learn about rational economic man, the more they admire him, the more they value self-interest and competition over collaboration and altruism.” “Who we tell ourselves we are shapes who we become. And this is a critical insight, not just for economics, but for any discipline, indeed any art, any belief system that tells us who we are. It remakes us.” “If you were holding a tiny baby and their temperature hit 40 degrees, would you say, ‘You go, girl, you burst through that boundary.’ No. You would do everything you can because when something is a living being, we know that life thrives within boundaries. Our bodies give us signals about boundaries all day.” “We’re all probably lightly sweating now because today’s going to become 40 degrees and our bodies will sweat trying to calm themselves down. Or we shiver when we try to warm up. Or our stomachs will rumble if we’re really hungry or we’re thirsty. So we thrive within boundaries and rules give us a freedom. And when those rules are shared and we know others are following those rules, it allows all of us to be free and to enjoy something, and to come out and be truly ourselves and vulnerable and open, because there’s a deep trust.” “I am a drop in a river and we’re going together and there’s no hurry and nowhere to get to.” “Practice first, theorize later.” “People in a place utterly know their context and know what would be useful and know what would be possible and what they have energy and excitement to try.”