About this episode
As we look toward the second half of 2023, the U.S. and Europe are likely to see very slow growth but avoid a recession, while Asia may be poised to become an engine of economic growth. ----- Transcript ----- Andrew Sheets: Welcome to Thoughts in the Market. I'm Andrew Sheets, Morgan Stanley's Chief Global Cross-Asset Strategist. Seth Carpenter: And I'm Seth Carpenter, Morgan Stanley's Global Chief Economist. Andrew Sheets: And on this special two part episode of the podcast, we'll be discussing Morgan Stanley's global mid-year outlook. Today we'll focus on economics, and tomorrow we'll turn our attention to strategy. It's Thursday, June 8th at 3 p.m. in London. Seth Carpenter: And it's 10 a.m. in New York. Andrew Sheets: Seth, it's great to sit down with you. We've been talking over the last several weeks as Morgan Stanley's gone through this outlook process. And this is a big joint collaborative forecasting process across Morgan Stanley research, where the economists and the strategists get together and think about what the next 12 to 18 months might look like. And, you know, we're sitting down at this really fascinating time for markets. The U.S. labor market is at some of its strongest levels since the late 1960s. Core inflation is at levels that we really haven't seen since the 1980s. The Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank have been raising rates at a pace that hasn't really been seen in 30 or 40 years. So, as you step back from all of these quite unusual occurrences, Seth, how do you frame where the global economy is at the moment and where is it headed? Seth Carpenter: I'd say there's one major dichotomy that I'll first start with in the global economy. On the one hand, Asia as a region really poised to have the strongest economic growth. And in very sharp contrast, when I think about the rest of the world, the United States and the Euro area, we see those as being actually quite weak. Second, China, you can't get out of a discussion of the global economy without talking about China. And there, the first quarter saw massive growth in China as all of the restrictions from COVID were removed, and as the government shifted the rest of its policies towards being supportive of growth. Now, there's been a little bit of a stumble in the second quarter, but we think that's temporary. And so you'll see a cyclical boost to Asia, coming out of China. Layer on top of this our structurally bullish views on economies like India and Indonesia, where there's a medium term, really positive note, you have all of these coming together, and it sets the stage for Asia really to be an engine of economic growth. The sharp contrast, the United States, the euro area. The inflation that you referenced has led central banks to raise interest rates for one reason and one reason alone. They want to slow those economies down, so the inflationary impulses start to fade away. Andrew Sheets: So Seth that's great context, and I'd like to drill down a little bit more detail on two economies in particular, the United States and China. For the United States, this idea of a soft landing, I think investors will point to the fact that given how strong the labor market is, given how high inflation is, given how inverted the yield curve is, given how much banks are tightening lending conditions, all those factors make it less likely historically that a recession is avoided. So, why do you think a soft landing is the most likely option here? Why do you think that that's our central scenario? Seth Carpenter: Yeah, I completely agree with you, Andrew. The discussion, the debate, the push back, the soft landing part of our thesis is definitely central to all of that discussion. Maybe I'll just start a little bit with the definition because I think the phrase soft landing can mean different things to different people. What I don't mean is that we just have great economic growth and inflation comes down on its own. Quite to the contrary, we are looking for economic growth in the United States to slow so much that it basically comes to a standstill. This year and next year are both likely to be years where economic growth is substantially below the long run productive capacity of the economy. Why? Because the Fed is raising interest rates, making the cost of borrowing, making the cost of extending credit higher, so that there is less spending in the economy so that those inflationary impulses go away. So that's what we're thinking is going to happen, is that we'll have really, really weak growth. But your question also gets into is if you're going to have that much slowing in the economy, why not a recession? And here, it's always fraught to say this time is different. But I think you highlighted what is really different about this cycle. It's the first time the Fed is pulling inflation down, instead of trying to limit its rise, in 40 years. But in addition to that, we're coming out of COVID. And I don't think anyone would argue that COVID is a normal part of an economic business cycle in the United States. Andrew Sheets: So we've just covered some of the reasons why we are more optimistic than those who expect a recession in the U.S. over the next 12 months. There are investors who say we're too pessimistic, and yet the economy in the first half of this year, the U.S. economy has been surprisingly solid and chugged along. So, what do you think is behind that? And why is it wrong to say that the last six months kind of disprove the idea that you need material slowing ahead? Seth Carpenter: Let's examine the facts. Housing activity actually did fall pretty substantially. If we compare where non-farm payrolls are and if you do any sort of averaging. Over months. Where we are now is actually much less hiring than what we saw six months ago, nine months ago, a year ago, the payrolls report for the month of May notwithstanding. We are seeing some slowing down there. And remember, I just said one of the reasons why we think we're going to get a soft landing is that the economy is still shorthanded. Some of the strength that we're seeing in hiring is making up for the fact that businesses were so cautious to hire in the past. I think the last thing to keep in mind is if we are wrong, if this slowing isn't in train, then the Federal Reserve is just going to have to raise interest rates even more because inflation, although it's coming down, there is a residual amount of inflation that really does need to be, in the Fed's mind, at least squeezed out of the economy by having subpar growth. Andrew Sheets: I'd like to turn now to the world's second largest economy, China, where there's also a great level of skepticism towards the economy generally, but also our view that the economy will recover in the second half of the year. If you look at commodity prices, Chinese equity prices, China's currency, there's been a lot of weakness across the board. So, what do you think has been going on? Why do you think the data has softened more recently and why is that not the right thing to extrapolate going forward for China growth? Seth Carpenter: Absolutely. All the asset prices that you point to, all of the market trades that people were looking to for a strong China recovery. Boy, they were a little bit disappointing. But the reason I think they were disappointing in general is because it was a different kind of expansion, so much domestic spending, so much on services. People were very much accustomed to looking at a Chinese surge coming from investment spending, infrastructure spending, housing spending, and most of the spending was elsewhere. So I think that's the first part of the puzzle. The second part of the puzzle, though, is Q2 legitimately has had a notable slowdown. Does that mean the whole China reopening story is derailed? I don't think so, and I don't think so for a few reasons. One, we are still seeing the spending on consumer services. So that's important. Second, we think what the government is planning on doing is topping up growth to make sure that the unemployment rate, especially among young people, continues to come down. And so it'll set us up for a strong second half of the year. Andrew Sheets: I'd like to ask you next about inflation. You know, I think something that's so fascinating about this year is if you were sitting there in early January, there was a real temptation, I think, by the market to think, 2023 was supposed to be the year where inflation is coming down. Yet inflation has been kind of surprisingly high this year. So if you think about our inflation forecasts, which do have inflation moderating throughout this year and into next year, what do you think is the more dominant part of that story that investors should be mindful of? Is it that inflation's falling? Is it that core inflation is still uncomfortably high? Is it a bit of both? Seth Carpenter: How about if I say absolutely all of the above? The inflation forecasting since COVID has been one of the most challenging parts of this job, I have to admit. So what is going on? Headline measures of inflation. So including food and energy prices that people like to strip out because it can be volatile, those are unquestionably off their peak and have come down a lot, not surprisingly, because oil prices, natural gas prices had spiked so much and those have backed off. But even looking at the core measures, as you say, we are seeing that core inflation has peaked in the U.S. and the euro area, sort of the major developed market economies where, you know, markets are focused and we are seeing things come down. And in particular, if you look in the United States, inflation on consumer goods, if you average over the past six months or so, has been about zero or negative. So went from very high inflation down to zero and for a few of those months, outright negative inflation. So I think it's impossible to say that we haven't seen a shift in terms of inflation. Andrew Sheets: And for monetary policy, what do you think that means? If we think about the big central banks, the Fed, the European Central Bank, the Bank of Japan, what do you think this inflation backdrop means for monetary policy, looking forward? Seth Carpenter: So for the Federal Reserve in the U.S. and the European Central Bank in the euro area, very, very similar. Different a little bit in terms of the specific numbers, the specific timing. But the strategy is the same, which is to raise policy rates to the point where they feel confident that they’re exerting restraint on the economy and allow inflation to come down over the course of another year or two years. In the United States, for example, you know, our baseline view is that the Fed did its last rate hike at the May meeting. The market is debating with itself as to whether or not the Fed is done. But, you know, the idea is make sure rates are in a way restrictive and then stay there for as long as needed to ensure that you get that downward trajectory in inflation and then only very gradually start to lower the policy rate as inflation comes down and looks like it's very clearly going back to target. In the euro area, same answer. Qualitatively, we're not convinced they're quite done raising rates. We think they probably have two more policy meetings where they raise their policy rate 25 basis points at each meeting. But then staying at that peak rate for an extended period of time and then gradually letting the policy rate come back down as the economy slows. Now, you mentioned Japan. And Japan, in our view, is really a bit different. When we think about the underlying, the trend inflation. We think that is about to peak now and come back down and in fact get below their 2% inflation target. Andrew Sheets: Very interesting. Seth, thanks for taking the time to talk. Seth Carpenter: Andrew, it is always a pleasure for me to get to talk to you. Andrew Sheets: And thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in for part two of this episode where Seth and I will discuss Morgan Stanley's mid-year strategy Outlook. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, and share the podcast with a friend or colleague today.