Episode 386 Dr. Stu & Midwife Blyss Answer Your Questions + VBAC Prep & Uterine Rupture (REBROADCAST)

Originally aired in June 2019 as our 73rd episode, we still often think back to this amazing first conversation we had with Dr. Stuart Fischbein and Midwife Blyss Young! Now, almost 6 years later, the information is just as relevant and impactful as it was then. This episode was a Q&A from our Facebook followers and touches on topics like statistics surrounding VBAC, uterine rupture, uterine abnormalities, insurance companies, breech vaginal delivery, high-risk pregnancies, and a powerful analogy about VBACs and weddings! Birthing Instincts Patreon Birthing Blyss Needed Website How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents Full Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, guys. This is one of our re-broadcasted episodes. This is an episode that, in my opinion, is a little gem in the podcast world of The VBAC Link. I really have loved this podcast ever since the date we recorded it. I am a huge fan of Dr. Stu Fischbein and Midwife Blyss and have been since the moment I knew that they existed. I absolutely love listening to their podcast and just all of the amazing things that they have and that they offer. So I wanted to rebroadcast this episode because it was quite down there. It was like our 73rd episode or something like that. And yeah, I love it so much. This week is OB week, and so I thought it'd be fun to kick-off the week with one of my favorite OB doctor's, Stuart Fischbein. So, a little recap of what this episode covers. We go over a lot. We asked for our community to ask questions for these guys, and we went through them. We didn't get to everything, so that was a bummer, but we did get to quite a bit. We talked about things like the chances of VBAC. We talked about the chances of uterine rupture and the signs of uterine rupture. We talked about inducing VBAC. We talked about uterine abnormalities, the desire of where you want to birth and figuring that out. And also, Blyss had a really great analogy to talk about what to do and how we're letting the medical world and insurance and things like that really contemplate where we or dictate where we are birthing. I love that analogy. You guys, seriously, so many questions. It's an episode that you'll probably want to put on repeat because it really is so great to listen to them, and they just speak so directly. I can't get enough of it. So I'm really excited for you guys to dive in today on this. However, I wanted to bring to your attention a couple of the new things that they've had since we recorded this way back when. I also wanted to point out that we will have updated notes in the show notes or updated links in the show notes so you can go check, them out. But one of the first things I wanted to mention was their Patreon. They have a Patreon these days, and I think that it just sounds dreamy. I think you should definitely go find in their Patreon their community through their Patreon. You can check it out at patreon.com, birthinginsinctspodcast.com and of course, you can find them on social media. You can find Dr. Stu at Birthing Instincts or his website at birthinginsincts.com. You can find Blyss and that is B-L-Y-S-S if you are looking for her at birthingblyss on Instagram or birthinblyss.com, and then of course, you can email them. They do take emails with questions and sometimes they even talk about it on their podcast. Their podcast is birthinginsinctspodcast.com, and then you can email them at birthinginsinctspodcast@gmail.com, so definitely check them out. Also, Dr. Stu offers some classes and workshops and things like that throughout the years on the topic of breech. You guys, I love them and really can't wait for you to listen to today's episode. Ladies, I cannot tell you how giddy and excited I have been for the last couple weeks since we knew that these guys were going to record with us. But we have some amazing, special guests today. We have Dr. Stuart Fischbein and Midwife Blyss Young, and we want to share a little bit about them before we get into the questions that all of you guys have asked on our social media platforms. Julie: Absolutely. And when Meagan says we're excited, we are really excited. Meagan: My face is hot right now because I’m so excited. Julie: I'm so excited. Meagan was texting me last night at 11:00 in all caps totally fan-girling out over here. So Dr. Stu and midwife Blyss are pretty amazing and we know that you are going to love them just as much as we do. But before we get into it, and like Meagan said, I'm just going to read their bios so you can know just how legit they really are. First, up. Dr. Stuart Fischbein, MD is a fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and how much we love ACOG over here at The VBAC Link He's a published author of the book Fearless Pregnancy: Wisdom and Reassurance from a Doctor, a Midwife, and a Mom. He has peer-reviewed papers Home Birth with an Obstetrician, A Series of 135 Out-of-Hospital Births and Breech Births at Home, Outcomes of 60 Breech and 109 Cephalic Planned Home and Birth Center Births. Dr. Stu is a lecturer and advocate who now works directly with home birthing midwives. His website is www.birthinginsincts.com, and his podcast is Dr. Stu's Podcast. Seriously guys, you need to subscribe. Meagan: Go subscribe right now to their podcast. Yeah. The website for his podcast is drstuspodcast.com. He has an international following. He offers hope for women who cannot find supportive practitioners for VBAC and twin and breech deliveries. Guys, this is the home birth OB. He is located in California. So if you are in California hoping for VBAC, especially if you have any special circumstance like after multiple Cesareans, twins or breech presentation, run to him. Run. Go find him. He will help you. Go to that website. Blyss, Midwife Blyss. We really love them. If you haven't had a chance to hear their podcast guys, really go and give them a listen because this duo is on point. They are on fire, and they talk about all of the real topics in birth. So his partner on the podcast is Blyss Young, and she is an LM and CPM. She has been involved in the natural birth world since the birth of her first son in 1992, first as an advocate, and then as an educator. She is a mother of three children, and all of her pregnancies were supported by midwives, two of which were triumphant, empowering home births. In 2006, Blyss co-founded the Sanctuary Birth and Family Wellness Center. This was the culmination of all of her previous experience as a natural birth advocate, educator and environmentalist. The Sanctuary was the first of its kind, a full-spectrum center where midwives, doctors, and other holistic practitioners collaborated to provide thousands of Los Angeles families care during their prenatal and postpartum periods. Blyss closed the Sanctuary in 2015 to pursue her long-held dream of becoming a midwife and care for her clients in an intimate home birth practice similar to the way she was cared for during her pregnancies. I think that's , why Meagan and I both became doulas. Meagan: That's exactly why I'm a doula. Julie: We needed to provide that care just like we had been cared for. Anyway, going on. Currently, Blyss, AKA Birthing Blyss, supports families on their journey as a birth center educator, placenta encapsulator and a natural birth and family consultant and home birth midwife. She is also co-founder of Just Placentas, a company servicing all of Southern California and placenta encapsulation and other postpartum services. And as ,, she's a co-host on Dr. Stu's Podcast. Meagan: And she has a class. Don't you have a class that you're doing? Don't you have a class? Midwife Blyss: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. She has a class that she's doing. I want to just fly out because I know you're not doing it online and everything. I just want to fly there just to take your class. Midwife Blyss: Yeah, it's coming online. Meagan: It is? Yay! Great. Well, I'll be one of those first registering. Oh, did you put it in there? Julie: No, there's a little bit more. Meagan: Oh, well, I'm just getting ahead. Julie: I just want to read more of Blyss over here because I love this and I think it's so important. At the heart of all Blyss's work is a deep-rooted belief in the brilliant design of our bodies, the symbiotic relationship between baby and mother, the power of the human spirit and the richness that honoring birth as the rite of passage and resurrecting lost traditions can bring to our high-tech, low-touch lives. And isn't that true love? I love that language. It is so beautiful. If I'm not mistaken, Midwife Blyss's website is birthingblyss.com. Is that right? And Blyss is spelled with a Y. So B-L-Y-S-S, birthingblyss.com, and that's where you can find her. Midwife Blyss: Just to make it more complicated, I had to put a Y in there. Julie: Hey. I love it. Meagan: That's okay. Julie: We're in Utah so we have all sorts of weird names over here. Meagan: Yep. I love it. You're unique. Awesome. Well, we will get started. Midwife Blyss: I did read through these questions, and one of the things that I wanted to say that I thought we could let people know is that of course there's a little bit more that we need to take into consideration when we have a uterus that's already had a scar. There's a small percentage of a uterine rupture that we need to be aware of, and we need to know what are the signs and symptoms that we would need to take a different course of action. But besides that, I believe that, and Dr. Stu can speak for himself because we don't always practice together. I believe that we treat VBAC just like any other mom who's laboring. So a lot of these questions could go into a category that you could ask about a woman who is having her first baby. I don't really think that we need to differentiate between those. Meagan: I love it. Midwife Blyss: But I do think that in terms of preparation, there are some special considerations for moms who have had a previous Cesarean, and probably the biggest one that I would point to is the trauma. Julie: Yes. Midwife Blyss: And giving space to and processing the trauma and really helping these moms have a provider that really believes in them, I think is one of the biggest factors to them having success. Meagan: Absolutely. Midwife Blyss: So that's one I wanted to say before you started down the question. Meagan: Absolutely. We have an online class that we provide for VBAC prep, and that's the very first section. It's mentally preparing and physically preparing because there's so much that goes into that. So I love that you started out with that. Julie: Yeah. A lot of these women who come searching for VBAC and realize that there's another way besides a repeat Cesarean are processing a lot of trauma, and a lot of them realized that their Cesarean might have been prevented had they known better, had a different provider, prepared differently, and things like that. Processing that and realizing that is heavy, and it's really important to do before getting into anything else, preparation-wise. Meagan: Yeah. Midwife Blyss: One of the best things I ever had that was a distinction that one of my VBAC moms made for me, and I passed it on as I've cared for other VBAC mom is for her, the justification, or I can't find the right word for it, but she basically said that that statement that we hear so often of, "Yeah, you have trauma from this, or you're not happy about how your birth went, but thank God your baby is healthy." And she said it felt so invalidating for her because, yes, she also was happy, of course, that her baby was safe, but at the same time, she had this experience and this trauma that wasn't being acknowledged, and she felt like it was just really being brushed away. Julie: Ah, yeah. Midwife Blyss: I think really giving women that space to be able to say, "Yes, that's valid. It's valid how you feel." And it is a really important part of the process and having a successful vaginal delivery this go around. Dr. Stu: I tend to be a lightning rod for stories. It's almost like I have my own personal ICAN meeting pretty much almost every day, one-on-one. I get contacted or just today driving. I'm in San Diego today and just driving down here, I talked to two people on the phone, both of whom Blyss really just touched on it is that they both are wanting to have VBACs with their second birth. They were seeing practitioners who are encouraging them to be induced for this reason or that reason. And they both have been told the same thing that Blyss just mentioned that if you end up with a repeat Cesarean, at least you're going to have a healthy baby. Obviously, it's very important. But the thing is, I know it's a cliche, but it's not just about the destination. It's about the journey as well. And one of the things that we're not taught in medical school and residency program is the value of the process. I mean, we're very much mechanical in the OB world, and our job is to get the baby out and head it to the pediatric department, and then we're done with it. If we can get somebody induced early, if we can decide to do a C-section sooner than we should, there's a lot of incentives to do that and to not think about the process and think about the person. There's another cliche which we talk about all the time. Blyss, and I've said it many times. It's that the baby is the candy and the mother's the wrapper. I don't know if you've heard that one, but when the baby comes out, the mother just gets basically tossed aside and her experience is really not important to the medical professionals that are taking care of her in the hospital setting, especially in today's world where you have a shift mentality and a lot of people are being taken care of by people they didn't know. You guys mentioned earlier the importance of feeling safe and feeling secure in whatever setting you're in whether that's at home or in the hospital. Because as Blyss knows, I get off on the mammalian track and you talk about mammals. They just don't labor well when they're anxious. Julie: Yep. Dr. Stu: When the doctor or the health professional is anxious and they're projecting their anxiety onto the mom and the family, then that stuff is brewing for weeks, if not months and who knows what it's actually doing inside, but it's certainly not going to lead to the likelihood of or it's going to diminish the likelihood of a successful labor. Julie: Yeah, absolutely. We talk about that. We go over that a lot. Like, birth is very instinctual and very primal, and it operates a very fundamental core level. And whenever mom feels threatened or anxious or, or anything like that, it literally can st or stop labor from progressing or even starting. Meagan: Yeah, exactly. When I was trying to VBAC with my first baby, my doctor came in and told my husband to tell me that I needed to wake up and smell the coffee because it wasn't happening for me. And that was the last, the last contraction I remember feeling was right before then and my body just shut off. I just stopped because I just didn't feel safe anymore or protected or supported. Yeah, it's very powerful which is something that we love so much about you guys, because I don't even know you. I've just listened to a million of your podcasts, and I feel so safe with you right now. I'm like, you could fly here right now and deliver my baby because so much about you guys, you provide so much comfort and support already, so I'm sure all of your clients can feel that from you. Julie: Absolutely. Dr. Stu: Yeah. I just would like to say that, know, I mean, the introduction was great. Which one of you is Julie? Which one's Meagan? Julie: I'm Julie. Meagan: And I'm Meagan. Dr. Stu: Okay, great. All right, so Julie was reading the introduction that she was talking about how if you have a breech, you have twins, if you have a VBAC, you have all these other things just come down to Southern California and care of it. But I'm not a cowboy. All right? Even though I do more things than most of my colleagues in the profession do, I also say no to people sometimes. I look at things differently. Just because someone has, say chronic hypertension, why can't they have a home birth? The labor is just the labor. I mean, if her blood pressure gets out of control, yeah, then she has to go to the hospital. But why do you need to be laboring in the hospital or induced early if everything is fine? But this isn't for everybody. We want to make that very clear. You need to find a supportive team or supportive practitioner who's willing to be able to say yes and no and give you it with what we call a true informed consent, so that you have the right to choose which way to go and to do what's reasonable. Our ethical obligation is to give you reasonable choices and then support your informed decision making. And sometimes there are things that aren't reasonable. Like for instance, an example that I use all the time is if a woman has a breech baby, but she has a placenta previa, a vaginal delivery is not an option for you. Now she could say, well, I want one and I'm not going to have a C-section. Julie: And then you have the right to refuse that. Dr. Stu: Yeah, yeah, but I mean, that's never going to happen because we have a good communication with our patients. Our communication is such that we develop a trust over the period of time. Sometimes I don't meet people until I'm actually called to their house by a midwife to come assist with a vacuum or something like that. But even then, the midwives and stuff, because I'm sort of known that people have understanding. And then when I'm sitting there, as long as the baby isn't trouble, I will explain to them, here's what's going to happen. Here's how we're going to do it. Here's what's going on. The baby's head to look like this. It not going be a problem. It'll be better in 12 hours. But I go through all this stuff and I say, I'm going to touch you now. Is that okay? I ask permission, and I do all the things that the midwives have taught me, but I never really learned in residency program. They don't teach this stuff. Julie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we go over a lot to in our classes is finding a provider who has a natural tendency to treat his patients the way that you want to be treated. That way, you'll have a lot better time when you birth because you're not having to ask them to do anything that they're not comfortable with or that they're not prepared for or that they don't know how to do. And so interviewing providers and interview as many as you need to with these women. And find the provider whose natural ways of treating his clients are the ways that you want to be treated. Dr. Stu: And sometimes in a community, there's nobody. Julie: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Meagan: That's what's so hard. Dr. Stu: And if it's important to you, if it's important to you, then you have to drive on. Julie: Or stand up for yourself and fight really hard. Meagan: I have a client from Russia. She's flying here in two weeks. She's coming all the way to Salt Lake City, Utah to have her baby. We had another client from Russia. Julie: You have another Russian client? Meagan: Yeah. Julie: That's awesome. Meagan: So, yeah. It's crazy. Sometimes you have to go far, far distances, and sometimes you've got them right there. You just have to search. You just have to find them. So it's tricky. Midwife Blyss: Maybe your insurance company is not gonna pay for it. Meagan: Did you say my company's not gonna pay for it? Midwife Blyss: And maybe your insurance company. Meagan: Oh, sure. Yeah, exactly. Midwife Blyss: You can't rely on them to be the ones who support some of these decisions that are outside of the standards of care. You might have to really figure out how to get creative around that area. Meagan: Absolutely. Yeah. So in the beginning, Blyss, you talked about noticing the signs, and I know that's one of the questions that we got on our Instagram, I believe. Birthing at home for both of you guys, what signs for a VBAC mom are signs enough where you talk about different care?. Dr. Stu: I didn't really understand that. Say that again what you were saying. Meagan: Yep. Sorry. So one of the questions on our Instagram was what are the signs of uterine rupture when you're at home that you look for and would transfer care or talk about a different plan of action? Dr. Stu: Okay. Quite simply, some uterine ruptures don't have any warning that they're coming. There's nothing you can do about those. But before we get into what you can feel, just let's review the numbers real briefly so that people have a realistic viewpoint. Because I'm sure if a doctor doesn't want to do a VBAC, you'll find a reason not to do a VBAC. You'll use the scar thickness or the pregnancy interval or whatever. They'll use something to try to talk you out of it or your baby's too big or this kind of thing. We can get into that in a little bit. But when there are signs, the most common sign you would feel is that there'd be increasing pain super-cubically that doesn't go away between contractions. It's a different quality of pain or sensation. It's pain. It's really's becoming uncomfortable. You might start to have variables when you didn't have them before. So the baby's heart rate, you might see heart rate decelerations. Rarely, you might find excessive bleeding, but that's usually not a sign of I mean that's a sign of true rupture. Midwife Blyss: Loss of station. Dr. Stu: Those are things you look for, but again, if you're not augmenting someone, if someone doesn't have an epidural where they don't have sensation, if they're not on Pitocin, these things are very unlikely to happen. I was going to get to the numbers. The numbers are such that the quoted risk of uterine rupture, which is again that crappy word. It sounds like a tire blowing out of the freeway. It is about 1 in 200. But only about 5 to 16%. And even one study said 3%. But let's just even take 16% of those ruptures will result in an outcome that the baby is damaged or dead. Okay, that's about 1 in 6. So the actual risk is about 1 in 6 times 1 in 200 or 1 in 1200 up to about 1 in 4000. Julie: Yep. Dr. Stu: So those are, those are the risks. They're not the 1 in 200 or the 2%. I actually had someone tell some woman that she had a 30% chance of rupture. Julie: We've had somebody say 50%. Meagan: We have? Julie: Yeah. Jess, our 50 copy editor-- her doctor told her that if she tries to VBAC, she has a 50% chance of rupture and she will die. Yeah. Meagan: Wow. Julie: Pretty scary. Dr. Stu: And by the way, a maternal mortality from uterine rupture is extremely rare. Julie: Yeah, we were just talking about that. Dr. Stu: That doctor is wrong on so many accounts. I don't even know where to begin on that. Julie: I know. Dr. Stu: Yeah. See that's the thing where even if someone has a classical Cesarean scar, the risk of rupture isn't 50%. Julie: Yep. Dr. Stu: So I don't know where they come up with those sorts of numbers. Julie: Yeah, I think it's just their comfort level and what they're familiar with and what they know and what they understand. I think a lot of these doctors, because she had a premature Cesarean, and so that's why he was a little, well, a lot more fear-based. Her Cesarean happened, I think, around 32 weeks. We still know that you can still attempt to VBAC and still have a really good chance of having a successful one. But a lot of these providers just don't do it. Dr. Stu: Yeah. And another problem is you can't really find out what somebody's C-section rate is. I mean, you can find out your hospital C-section rate. They can vary dramatically between different physicians, so you really don't know. You'd like to think that physicians are honest. You'd like to think that they're going to tell you the truth. But if they have a high C-section rate and it's a competitive world, they're not going to. And if you're with them, you don't really have a choice anyway. Julie: So there's not transparency on the physician level. Dr. Stu: So Blyss was talking briefly about the fact that your insurance may not pay for it. Blyss, why don't you elaborate on that because you do that point so well. Midwife Blyss: Are you talking about the wedding? Dr. Stu: I love your analogy. It's a great analogy. Midwife Blyss: I'm so saddened sometimes when people talk to me about that they really want this option and especially VBACs. I just have a very special tender place in my heart for VBAC because I overcame something from my first to second birth that wasn't a Cesarean. But it felt like I had been led to mistrust my body, and then I had a triumphant second delivery. So I really understand how that feels when a woman is able to reclaim her body and have a vaginal delivery. But just in general, in terms of limiting your options based on what your insurance will pay for, we think about the delivery of our baby and or something like a wedding where it's this really special day. I see that women or families will spend thousands and thousands of dollars and put it on a credit card and figure out whatever they need to do to have this beautiful wedding. But somehow when it comes to the birth of their baby, they turn over all their power to this insurance company. And so we used to do this talk at the sanctuary and I used to say, "What if we had wedding insurance and you paid every year into this insurance for your wedding, and then when the wedding came, they selected where you went and you didn't like it and they put you in a dress that made you look terrible and the food was horrible and the music was horrible and they invited all these people you didn't want to be there?" Julie: But it's a network. Midwife Blyss: Would you really let that insurance company, because it was paid for, dictate how your wedding day was? Julie: That's a good analogy. Midwife Blyss: You just let it all go. Meagan: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. And it's so true. It is so true. Julie: And we get that too a lot about hiring a doula. Oh, I can't hire a doula. It's too expensive. We get that a lot because people don't expect to pay out-of-pocket for their births. When you're right, it's just perceived completely differently when it should be one of the biggest days of your life. I had three VBACs at home. My first was a necessary, unnecessary Cesarean. I'm still really uncertain about that, to be honest with you. But you better believe my VBACs at home, we paid out of pocket for a midwife. Our first two times, it was put on a credit card. I had a doula, I had a birth photographer, I had a videographer. My first VBAC, I had two photographers there because it was going to be documented because it was so important to me. And we sold things on eBay. We sold our couches, and I did some babysitting just to bring in the money. Obviously, I hired doulas because it was so important to me to not only have the experience that I wanted and that I deserved, but I wanted it documented and I wanted it to be able to remember it well and look back on it fondly. We see that especially in Utah. I think we have this culture where women just don't-- I feel like it's just a national thing, but I think in Utah, we tend to be on the cheap side just culturally and women don't see the value in that. It's hard because it's hard to shift that mindset to see you are important. You are worth it. What if you could have everything you wanted and what if you knew you could be treated differently? Would you think about how to find the way to make that work financially? And I think if there's just that mindset shift, a lot of people would. Meagan: Oh, I love that. Dr. Stu: If you realize if you have to pay $10,000 out of pocket or $5,000 or whatever to at least have the opportunity, and you always have the hospital as a backup. But 2 or 3 years from now, that $5,000 isn't going to mean anything. Julie: Yeah, nothing. Meagan: But that experience is with you forever. Dr. Stu: So yeah, women may have to remember the names of their children when they're 80 years old, but they'll remember their birth. Julie: Well, with my Cesarean baby, we had some complications and out-of-pocket, I paid almost $10,000 for him and none of my home births, midwives, doula, photography and videography included cost over $7,000. Meagan: My Cesarean births in-hospital were also more expensive than my birth center births. Julie: So should get to questions. Dr. Stu: Let's get to some of the questions because you guys some really good questions. Meagan: Yes. Dr. Stu: Pick one and let's do it. Meagan: So let's do Lauren. She was on Facebook. She was our very first question, and she said that she has some uterine abnormalities like a bicornuate uterus or a separate uterus or all of those. They want to know how that impacts VBAC. She's had two previous Cesareans due to a breech presentation because of her uterine abnormality. Julie: Is that the heart-shaped uterus? Yeah. Dr. Stu: Yeah. You can have a septate uterus. You can have a unicornuate uterus. You can have a double uterus. Julie: Yeah. Two separate uteruses. Dr. Stu: Right. The biggest problem with a person with an abnormal uterine shape or an anomaly is a couple of things. One is malpresentation as this woman experienced because her two babies were breech. And two, is sometimes a retained placenta is more common than women that have a septum, that sort of thing. Also, it can cause preterm labor and growth restriction depending on the type of anomaly of the uterus. Now, say you get to term and your baby is head down, or if it's breech in my vicinity. But if it's head down, then the chance of VBAC for that person is really high. I mean, it might be a slightly greater risk of Cesarean section, but not a statistically significant risk. And then the success rate for home birth VBACs, if you look at the MANA stats or even my own stats which are not enough to make statistical significance in a couple of papers that I put out, but the MANA stats show that it's about a 93% success rate for VBACS in the midwifery model, whereas in the hospital model, it can be as low as 17% up to the 50s or 60%, but it's not very high. And that's partly because of the model by which you're cared for. So the numbers that I'm quoting and the success rates I'm quoting are again, assuming that you have a supportive practitioner in a supportive environment, every VBAC is going to have diminished chance of success in a restrictive or tense environment. But unicornuate uterus or septate uterus is not a contraindication to VBAC, and it's not an indication of breech delivery if somebody knows how to do a breech VBAC too. Julie: Right. Dr. Stu: So Lauren, that would be my answer to to your question is that no, it's not a contraindication and that if you have the right practitioner you can certainly try to labor and your risk of rupture is really not more significant than a woman who has a normal-shaped uterus. Julie: Good answer. Meagan: So I want to spin off that really quick. It's not a question, but I've had a client myself that had two C-sections, and her baby was breech at 37 weeks, and the doctor said he absolutely could not turn the baby externally because her risk of rupture was so increasingly high. So would you agree with that or would you disagree with that? D No, no, no. Even an ACOG statement on external version and breech says that a previous uterine scar is not a contraindication to attempting an external version. Meagan: Yeah. Dr. Stu: Now actually, if we obviously had more breech choices, then there'd be no reason to do an external version. The main reason that people try an external version which can sometimes be very uncomfortable, and depending on the woman and her parody and certain other factors, their success rate cannot be very good is the only reason they do it because the alternative is a Cesarean in 95% of locations in the country. Meagan: Okay, well that's good to know. Dr. Stu: But again, one of the things I would tell people to do is when they're hearing something from their position that just sort of rocks the common sense vote and doesn't sort of make sense, look into it. ACOG has a lot. I think you can just go Google some of the ACOG clinical guidelines or practice guidelines or clinical opinions or whatever they call them. You can find and you can read through, and they summarize them at the end on level A, B, and C evidence, level A being great evidence level C being what's called consensus opinion. The problem with consensus, with ACOG's guidelines is that about 2/3 of them are consensus opinion because they don't really have any data on them. When you get bunch of academics together who don't like VBAC or don't like home birth or don't like breech, of course a consensus opinion is going to be, "Well, we're not going to think those are a good idea." But much to their credit lately, they're starting to change their tune. Their most recent VBAC guideline paper said that if your hospital can do labor and delivery, your hospital can do VBAC. Julie: Yes. Dr. Stu: That's huge. There was immediately a whole fiasco that went on. So any hospital that's doing labor and delivery should be able to do a VBAC. When they say they can't or they say our insurance company won't let them, it's just a cowardly excuse because maybe it's true, but they need to fight for your right because most surgical emergencies in labor delivery have nothing to do with a previous uterine scar. Julie: Absolutely. Dr. Stu: They have to do with people distress or placental abruption or cord prolapse. And if they can handle those, they can certainly handle the one in 1200. I mean, say a hospital does 20 VBACs a year or 50 VBACs a year. You'll take them. Do the math. It'll take them 25 years to have a rupture. Meagan: Yeah. It's pretty powerful stuff. Midwife Blyss: I love when he does that. Julie: Me too. I'm a huge statistics junkie and data junkie. I love the numbers. Meagan: Yeah. She loves numbers. Julie: Yep. Meagan: I love that. Julie: Hey, and 50 VBACs a year at 2000, that would be 40 years actually, right? Dr. Stu: Oh, look at what happened. So say that again. What were the numbers you said? Julie: So 1 in 2000 ruptures are catastrophic and they do 50 VBACs a year, wouldn't that be 40 years? Dr. Stu: But I was using the 1200 number. Julie: Oh, right, right, right, right. Dr. Stu: So that would be 24 years. Julie: Yeah. Right. Anyways, me and you should sit down and just talk. One day. I would love to have lunch with you. Dr. Stu: Let's talk astrology and astronomy. Yes. Dr. Stu: Who's next? Midwife Blyss: Can I make a suggestion? There was another woman. Let's see where it is. What's the likelihood that a baby would flip? And is it reasonable to even give it a shot for a VBA2C. How do you guys say that? Meagan: VBAC after two Cesareans. Midwife Blyss: I need to know the lingo. So, I would say it's very unlikely for a baby to flip head down from a breech position in labor. It doesn't mean it's impossible. Dr. Stu: With a uterine septum, it's almost never going to happen. Bless is right on. Even trying an external version on a woman with the uterine septum when the baby's head is up in one horn and the placenta in the other horn and they're in a frank breech position, that's almost futile to do that, especially if a woman is what I call a functional primary, or even a woman who's never labored before. Julie: Right. That's true. Meagan: And then Napoleon said, what did she say? Oh, she was just talking about this. She's planning on a home birth after two Cesareans supported by a midwife and a doula. Research suggests home birth is a reasonable and safe option for low-risk women. And she wants to know in reality, what identifies low risk? Midwife Blyss: Well, I thought her question was hilarious because she says it seems like everybody's high-risk too. Old, overweight. Julie: Yeah, it does. It does, though. Dr. Stu: Well, immediately, when you label someone high-risk, you make them high-risk. Julie: Yep. Dr. Stu: Because now you've planted seeds of doubt inside their head. So I would say, how do you define high-risk? I mean, is 1 in 1200 high risk? Julie: Nope. Dr. Stu: It doesn't seem high-risk to me. But again, I mean, we do a lot of things in our life that are more dangerous than that and don't consider them high-risk. So I think the term high-risk is handed about way too much. And it's on some false or just some random numbers that they come up with. Blyss has heard this before. I mean, she knows everything I say that comes out of my mouth. The numbers like 24, 35, 42. I mean, 24 hours of ruptured membranes. Where did that come from? Yeah, or some people are saying 18 hours. I mean, there's no science on that. I mean, bacteria don't suddenly look at each other and go, "Hey Ralph, it's time to start multiplying." Julie: Ralph. Meagan: I love it. Julie: I'm gonna name my bacteria Ralph. Meagan: It's true. And I was told after 18 hours, that was my number. Dr. Stu: Yeah, again, so these numbers, there are papers that come out, but they're not repetitive. I mean, any midwife worth her salt has had women with ruptured membranes for sometimes two, three, or four days. Julie: Yep. Midwife Blyss: And as long as you're not sticking your fingers in there, and as long as their GBS might be negative or that's another issue. Meagan: I think that that's another question. That's another question. Yep. Dr. Stu: Yeah, I'll get to that right now. I mean, if some someone has a ruptured membrane with GBS, and they don't go into labor within a certain period of time, it's not unreasonable to give them the pros and cons of antibiotics and then let them make that decision. All right? We don't force people to have antibiotics. We would watch for fetal tachycardia or fever at that point, then you're already behind the eight ball. So ideally, you'd like to see someone go into labor sooner. But again, if they're still leaking, if there are no vaginal exams, the likelihood of them getting group B strep sepsis or something on the baby is still not very high. And the thing about antibiotics that I like to say is that if I was gonna give antibiotics to a woman, I think it's much better to give a woman an antibiotics at home than in the hospital. And the reason being is because at home, the baby's still going to be born into their own environment and mom's and dad's bacteria and the dog's bacteria and the siblings' bacteria where in the hospital, they're going to go to the nursery for observation like they generally do, and they're gonna be exposed to different bacteria unless they do these vaginal seeding, which isn't really catching on universally yet where you take a swab of mom's vaginal bacteria before the C-section. Midwife Blyss: It's called seeding. Dr. Stu: Right. I don't consider ruptured membrane something that again would cause me to immediately say something where you have to change your plan. You individualize your care in the midwifery model. Julie: Yep. Dr. Stu: You look at every patient. You look at their history. You look at their desires. You look at their backup situation, their transport situation, and that sort of thing. You take it all into account. Now, there are some women in pregnancy who don't want to do a GBS culture. Ignorance is bliss. The other spelling of bliss. Julie: Hi, Blyss. Dr. Stu: But the reason that at least I still encourage people to do it is because for any reason, if that baby gets transferred to the hospital during labor or after and you don't have a GBS culture on the chart, they're going to give antibiotics. They're going to treat it as GBS positive and they're also going to think you're irresponsible. And they're going to have that mentality that of oh, here's another one of those home birth crazy people, blah, blah, blah. Julie: That just happened to me in January. I had a client like that. I mean, anyways, never mind. It's not the time. Midwife Blyss: Can I say something about low-risk? Julie: Yes. Midwife Blyss: I think there are a lot of different factors that go into that question. One being what are the state laws? Because there are things that I would consider low-risk and that I feel very comfortable with, but that are against the law. And I'm not going to go to jail. Meagan: Right. We want you to still be Birthing Bless. Midwife Blyss: As, much as I believe in a woman's right to choose, I have to draw the line at what the law is. And then the second is finding a provider that-- obviously, Dr. Stu feels very comfortable with things that other providers may not necessarily feel comfortable with. Julie: Right. Midwife Blyss: And so I think it's really important, as you said in the beginning of the show, to find a provider who takes the risk that you have and feels like they can walk that path with you and be supportive. I definitely agree with what Dr. Stu was saying about informed consent. I had a client who was GBS positive, declined antibiotics and had a very long rupture. We continued to walk that journey together. I kept giving informed consent and kept giving informed consent. She had such trust and faith that it actually stretched my comfort level. We had to continually talk about where we were in this dance. But to me, that feels like what our job is, is to give them information about the pros and cons and let them decide for themselves. And I think that if you take a statistic, I'm picking an arbitrary number, and there's a 94% chance of success and a 4% chance that something could go really wrong, one family might look at that and say, "Wow, 94%, this is neat. That sounds like a pretty good statistic," and the other person says, "4% makes me really uncomfortable. I need to minimize." I think that's where you have to have the ability, given who you surround yourself with and who your provider is, to be able to say, "This is my choice," and it's being supported. So it is arbitrary in a lot of ways except for when it comes to what the law is. Julie: Yeah, that makes sense. Meagan: I love that. Yeah. Julie: Every state has their own law. Like in the south, it's illegal like in lots of places in the South, I think in Washington too, that midwives can't support home birth if you're VBAC. I mean there are lots of different legislative rules. Why am I saying legislative? Look at me, I'm trying to use fancy words to impress you guys. There are lots of different laws in different states and, and some of them are very evidence-based and some laws are broad and they leave a lot of room for practices, variation and gray areas. Some are so specific that they really limit a woman's option in that state. Dr. Stu: We can have a whole podcast on the legal decision-making process and a woman's right to autonomy of her body and the choices and who gets to decide that would be. Right now, the vaccine issue is a big issue, but also pregnancy and restricting women's choices of these things. If you want to do another one down the road, I would love to talk on that subject with you guys. Julie: Perfect. Meagan: We would love that. Julie: Yeah. I think it's your most recent episode. I mean as of the time of this recording. Mandates Kill Medicine. What is that the name? Dr. Stu: Mandates Destroy Medicine. Julie: Yeah. Mandates Destroy Medicine. Dr. Stu: It's wonderful. Julie: Yeah, I love it. I was just listening to it today again. Dr. Stu: well it does because it makes the physicians agents of the state. Julie: Yeah, it really does. Meagan: Yeah. Well. And if you give us another opportunity to do this with you, heck yeah. Julie: Yeah. You can just be a guest every month. Meagan: Yeah. Dr. Stu: So I don't think I would mind that at all, actually. Meagan: We would love it. Julie: Yeah, we would seriously love it. We'll keep in touch. Meagan: So, couple other questions I'm trying to see because we jumped through a few that were the same. I know one asks about an overactive pelvic floor, meaning too strong, not too weak. She's wondering if that is going to affect her chances of having a successful VBAC. Julie: And do you see that a lot with athletes, like people that are overtrained or that maybe are not overtrained, but who train a lot and weightlifters and things like that, where their pelvic floor is too strong? I've heard of that before. Midwife Blyss: Yep, absolutely. there's a chiropractor here in LA, Dr. Elliot Berlin, who also has his own podcast and he talks– Meagan: Isn't Elliott Berlin Heads Up? Dr. Stu: Yeah. He's the producer of Heads Up. Meagan: Yeah, I listened to your guys' special episode on that too. But yeah, he's wonderful. Midwife Blyss: Yeah. So, again, I think this is a question that just has more to do with vaginal delivery than it does necessarily about the fact that they've had a previous Cesarean. So I do believe that the athletic pelvis has really affected women's deliveries. I think that during pregnancy we can work with a pelvic floor specialist who can help us be able to realize where the tension is and how to do some exercises that might help alleviate some of that. We have a specialist here in L.A. I don't know if you guys do there that I would recommend people to. And then also, maybe backing off on some of the athletic activities that that woman is participating in during her pregnancy and doing things more like walking, swimming, yoga, stretching, belly dancing, which was originally designed for women in labor, not to seduce men. So these are all really good things to keep things fluid and soft because you want things to open and release rather than being tense. Meagan: I love that. Dr. Stu: I agree. I think sometimes it leads more to not generally so much of dilation. Again, a friend of mine, David Hayes, he's a home birth guy in South Carolina, doesn't like the idea of using stages of labor. He wants to get rid of that. I think that's an interesting thought. We have a meeting this November in Wisconsin. We're gonna have a bunch of thought-provoking things going on over there. Dr. Stu: Is it all men talking about this? Midwife Blyss: Oh, hell no. Julie: Let's get more women. Dr. Stu: No, no, no, no, no. Being organized By Cynthia Calai. Do you guys know who Cynthia is? She's been a midwife for 50 years. She's in Wisconsin. She's done hundreds of breeches. Anyway, the point being is that I think that I find that a lot of those people end up getting instrumented like vacuums, more commonly. Yeah. So Blyss is right. I mean, if there are people who are very, very tight down there. The leviators and the muscles inside are very tight which is great for life and sex and all that other stuff, but yeah, you need to learn how to be able to relax them too. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: So I know we're running short on time, but this question that came through today, I loved it. It said, "Could you guys both replicate your model of care nationwide somehow?" She said, "How do I advocate effectively for home birth access and VBAC access in a state that actively prosecutes home birth and has restrictions on midwifery practice?" She specifically said she's in Nebraska, but we hear this all over the place. VBAC is not allowed. You cannot birth at home, and people are having unassisted births. Julie: Because they can't find the support. Meagan: They can't find the support and they are too scared to go to the hospital or birth centers. And so, yeah, the question is-- Julie: What can women do in their local communities to advocate for positive change and more options in birth where they are more restricted? Dr. Stu: Blyss. Midwife Blyss: I wish I had a really great answer for this. I think that the biggest thing is to continue to talk out loud. And I'm really proud of you ladies for creating this podcast and doing the work that you do. Julie: Thanks. Midwife Blyss: I always believed when we had the Sanctuary that it really is about the woman advocating for herself. And the more that hospitals and doctors are being pushed by women to say, "We need this as an option because we're not getting the work," I think is really important. I support free birth, and I think that most of the women and men who decide to do that are very well educated. Julie: Yeah, for sure. Midwife Blyss: It is actually really very surprising for midwives to see that sometimes they even have better statistics than we do. But it saddens me that there's no choice. And, a woman who doesn't totally feel comfortable with doing that is feeling forced into that decision. So I think as women, we need to support each other, encourage each other, continue to talk out loud about what it is that we want and need and make this be a very important decision that a woman makes, and it's a way of reclaiming the power. I'm not highly political. I try and stay out of those arenas. And really, one of my favorite quotes from a reverend that I have been around said, "Be for something and against nothing." I really believe that the more. Julie: I like that. Midwife Blyss: Yeah, the more that we speak positively and talk about positive change and empowering ourselves and each other, it may come slowly, but that change will continue to come. Julie: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Stu: I would only add to that that I think unfortunately, in any country, whether it's a socialist country or a capitalist country, it's economics that drives everything. If you look at countries like England or the Netherlands, you find that they have, a really integrated system with midwives and doctors collaborating, and the low-risk patients are taken care of by the midwives, and then they consult with doctors and midwives can transfer from home to hospital and continue their care in that system, the national health system. I'm not saying that's the greatest system for somebody who's growing old and has arthritis or need spinal surgery or something like that, but for obstetrics, that sort of system where you've taken out liability and you've taken out economic incentive. All right, so how do you do that in our system? It's not very easy to do because everything is economically driven. One of the things that I've always advocated for is if you want to lower the C-section rate, increase the VBAC rate. It would be really simple for insurance companies, until we have Bernie Sanders with universal health care. But while we have insurance companies, if they would just pay twice as much for a vaginal birth and half as much for a Cesarean birth, then finally, VBACS and breech deliveries would be something. Oh, maybe we should start. We should be more supportive of those things because it's all about the money. But as long as the hospital gets paid more, doctors don't really get paid more. It's expediency for the doctor. He gets it done and goes home. But the hospital, they get paid a lot more, almost twice as much for a C-section than you do for vaginal birth. What's the incentive for the chief financial officer of any hospital to say to the OB department, "We need to lower our C-section rate?" One of the things that's happening are programs that insurance, and I forgot what it's called, but where they're trying, in California, they're trying to lower the primary C-section rate. There's a term for it where it's an acronym with four initials. Blyss, do you know what I'm talking about? Midwife Blyss: No. Dr. Stu: It's an acronym about a first-time mom. We're trying to avoid those C-sections. Julie: Yeah, the primary Cesarean. Dr. Stu: It's an acronym anyway, nonetheless. So they're in the right direction. Most hospitals are in the 30% range. They'd like to lower to 27%. That's a start. One of the ways to really do that is to support VBAC, and treat VBAC as Blyss said at the very beginning of the podcast is that a VBAC is just a normal labor. When people lump VBAC in with breech in twins, it's like, why are you doing that? Breech in twins requires special skill. VBAC requires a special skill also, which is a skill of doing nothing. Julie: Yeah, it's hard. Dr. Stu: It's hard for obstetricians and labor and delivery nurses and stuff like that to do nothing. But ultimately, VBAC is just a vaginal birth and doesn't require any special skill. When a doctor says, "We don't do VBAC, what he's basically saying, or she, is that I don't do vaginal deliveries," which is stupid because VBAC is just a vaginal delivery. Julie: Yeah, that's true. Meagan: Such a powerful point right there. Julie: Guys. We loved chatting with you so much. We wish we could talk with you all day long. Meagan: I would. All day long. I just want to be a fly on your walls if I could. Julie: If you're ever in Salt Lake City again-- Meagan: He just was. Did you know about this? Julie: Say hi to Adrienne, but also connect with us because we would love to meet you. All right, well guys, everyone, all of our listeners, Women of Strength, we are going to drop all the information that you need to find Midwife Blyss and Dr. Stu-- their website, their podcast, and all of that in our show notes. So yeah, now you can find our podcast. You can even listen to our podcast on our website at thevbaclink.com/podcast. You can play episodes right from there. So if you don't know-- well, if you're listening to this podcast, then you probably have a podcast player already. But you know what? My mom still doesn't know what a podcast is, so I'm just gonna have to start sending her links right to our page. Meagan: Yep, just listen to us wherever and leave us a review and head over to Dr. Stu's Podcast and leave them a review. Julie: Subscribe because you're gonna love him, but don't stop listening to him us because you love us too. Remember that. Dr. Stu: I want to thank everybody who wrote in, and I'm sorry we didn't get to answer every question. We tend to blabber on a little bit asking these important questions, and hopefully you guys will have us back on again. Meagan: We would love to have you. Julie: Absolutely. Meagan: Yep, we will. Julie: Absolutely. Meagan: Yeah Closing Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com . Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donations Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands