About this episode
One of our team members, Paige, joins us today to share our first maternal assisted Cesarean story on the podcast! Our favorite Julie joins too sharing her perspective as Paige’s birth photographer. Paige tried three times to have the vaginal birth of her dreams. Each time ended in emergency Cesareans due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones. Each time, she missed the golden hour that she so desperately craved. Each time, she learned more and more about birth. With her fourth baby, she exchanged her VBAC dream for a new one. After hearing about maternal assisted Cesareans, she decided to do all she could to pursue one fully knowing it may not happen. But when it did, it was everything she hoped it would be and more. Paige's Full Birth Video Houm Clinic Dayana Harrison Birth Services Julie Francom Birth Photography YouTube Video: Maternal Assisted Caesarean Section - The Birth of Betty Mae The VBAC Link Podcast Episode 220: Dr. Natalie Elphinstone & MACs The Birth Hour Episode 875: Nicole's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in Michigan Baby Baking & Kid Raising Podcast Episode 6: MACs with Lauren Brenton Australian Birth Stories Podcast: All Maternal Assisted Cesarean Episodes YouTube Video: Nottingham University Hospitals Maternity Gentle C-section CBAC Support Facebook Community How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents Full Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Oh my gosh, you guys. Today is a very special day. It’s a very, very special day. We have our own team member, Paige. If you guys haven’t already seen the video floating around, go to Instagram today and watch what we’ve got posted. We have Paige, and we have Julie, and they are actually in Korea. Now, Paige lives in Korea. Julie flew to Korea to be the photographer for Paige. I was over here in Utah having FOMO as they were Marco Poloing me when she was in labor. You guys, I am so excited. I can’t explain to you the love that I have for Paige. She has been on our team for so many years. I’m getting emotional. I have seen this woman transform into the most amazing, strong individual. She has created something so special for her family, and I think, for Korea. This is our first official Maternal Assisted Cesarean story on the podcast. Seriously, my eyes are all watery. I just cannot wait to hear this story. Julie was just saying how she’s been dying wanting to call me this week while she has been in Korea, but she didn’t want to share her story because it is Paige’s story, but I love that I get to have both of them on the show. So hello, you guys. I’m sorry. I just am rambling. Paige: Hi. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay. We have Paige. We have Julie. You guys know who they are. Julie, obviously, has been with The VBAC Link for a long time, and so has Paige. Julie: Been with The VBAC Link for a long time? Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, sorry. You created it. Julie: We created it. Meagan: Yeah, sorry. I’m thinking of Paige. Paige has been with The VBAC Link for a long time. If you didn’t know, she actually heads the CBAC group, the CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and she transcribes all of these incredible episodes. So thank you, Paige, and welcome everybody. Paige: Thank you. So yeah, I’m just sitting here in my little corner of The VBAC Link team doing my transcribing which I feel like maybe is just a little drop in the birth world bucket until something more happens for me. I’ve been with The VBAC Link for the last 4 years, and I feel like it’s my way of preserving these stories. Spending time with the women on the podcast is such an honor, and it’s just one of my favorite things to do. I’ve learned so much, and truly, we’ll get into it, but I wouldn’t have had this birth experience in the same way if it were not for The VBAC Link and for being on the team. So truly, thank you to both of you. You’ve changed my life. All right, what’s that? Meagan: I was going to say that you’ve made our life better. Paige: Aw, thank you. Julie: Yes, absolutely. It is so cool to see this. Me and Paige were just talking last night about this and how it’s kind of a full-circle moment. We were going over her other births and how we got here and how she got here. It’s just so cool. I am so thrilled about how everything played out. There were so many little miracles. I think miracles is not the right word. There were so many special blessings and things that led her to this point. I cannot wait to hear all of it from her perspective. It’s so fun to be here and share on the podcast and really, this story is going to change lives. It’s going to change lives. It’s going to change birth. It is going to be something that people talk about and use as inspiration and hope as they prepare for their own births, no matter how they birth because there’s a lot of advocacy involved. I think that’s the biggest thing. There’s a lot of advocacy. Paige did a lot of advocating for herself and what she wanted. It doesn’t have to be literally the same way that she birthed for anybody to take inspiration from it, so I would just encourage everybody to listen because she is such a good example of fighting for what she wants, and shifting and rolling with the punches. I am just so inspired by Paige. You mentioned it too, Meagan. I am just so inspired by how she has approached all of this. Yeah, there are lots of life lessons. Lots of life lessons in this birth. Meagan: Yes. Julie: Stay tuned, everybody. It’s a good one. Meagan: All right, Ms. Paige. We’re turning the time over to you. Let’s hear it because I cannot wait. Paige: Okay, so I’m going to start with a brief overview of my first three births. I’m a mom to four boys. I never thought that would be my story, with four C-sections. I never thought that would be my story, but it is, and it’s beautiful. For my first birth, I got pregnant in September 2015. We were living in Hawaii at the time, but moved to Lawton, Oklahoma. I received prenatal care there at the Army hospital. It was pretty straightforward, just the What to Expect When You’re Expecting type prep. They have this program called the New Parent Support Program which is really great for new families. A nurse comes to your home, educates you, and gives you resources. I did that. That was really nice. I had a friend who was a doula. We took a hospital childbirth class and watched things like The Business of Being Born, but other than that, I was mostly just really afraid of childbirth in general. I was afraid of dying. I just wanted to survive. I didn’t really have any specific birth preferences. I have struggled with anxiety and panic attacks throughout my life, so I thought that if I could just survive, that would be a big win. My OB was a family friend, and I felt very safe with him. He had a great bedside manner. I didn’t really push any questions. I just trusted him fully and completely. At 34 and 6, I noticed that I started leaking fluids. My New Parent Support Program nurse had advised me that if I had noticed any kind of new discharge or anything like that– colorless, odorless fluid to go and get it checked out immediately. So I did. My husband drove me. I remember I had not eaten lunch, but it was lunchtime. I was like, “Oh, just drop me off. This will be fast, then we will go get lunch.” The midwife there tested the fluids and confirmed it was amniotic fluid. I remember my OB walked in. He said, “You are leaking amniotic fluid. We need to have this baby today. The baby will be fine at 35 weeks, and it’s better for the baby to come than for you to stay pregnant basically and risk an infection.” So I was like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I trust you.” I got a steroid shot for lung development at 35 weeks. Then they started me on an IV with antibiotics because I didn’t have my GBS test back yet. Then he also told me that the Army hospital there did not have a NICU to support a 35-weeker and that I would need to be transferred to the civilian hospital in town. So I would have to be transferred. Since I was already on an IV, they were just going to do it via ambulance. It was my first time ever riding in an ambulance. He also said that he legally wouldn’t be able to deliver me, but he would go with me and help me make decisions. That was really nice of him to go, but still just the sheer fact that I was going to be riding in an amublance for the first time, I was going to be having the baby that day, and then I was going to have a completely new doctor, was just sheer overload going into a birth that I was already afraid of. Yeah, it was not the best circumstances for a successful induction. I arrived at the hospital. I met the doctor very briefly. I called my doula friend. She came and helped me. We did what we could, but ultimately, my body was just not showing any signs of being ready. I had no contractions at all. I was completely closed and not even soft. No dilation. My cervix was just not showing any signs of progress. After about 14 hours on Pit, they came in. I remember I had the dull cramping from the Pit, but nothing really intense. I also just remember being so painfully hungry, and they wouldn’t let me each. But since I hadn’t had lunch, I was just so hungry where you get the body chills and stuff. Anyway, the doctor came in, said he was having decels. He recommended having a C-section because my water had been broken for over 12 hours. I consented. I was so afraid. I remember when they were putting in the spinal, I was just heaving sobs into this poor nurse. You go in and prep. The C-section itself was fine. My arms were strapped down. I didn’t feel pain, but I remember it was like an elephant was sitting on my chest. It was like, “Oh, it just feels like somebody’s sitting on my chest.” It wasn’t horrible, and I was pleasantly surprised by that. But then, he was whisked away to the NICU. I briefly saw him swaddled with a hat on, then he was whisked away. No skin-to-skin for my husband or me, obviously. He was 4 pounds, 14 ounces at birth. They wouldn’t let me go see him until I felt ready to go. I was just so swollen from all of the fluids. I was so nauseous anytime I would sit up. I just was not ready in any state to try to go walk or be wheeled to the NICU. Finally, 36 hours after delivery, I was able to meet him. We named him before that over FaceTime, but he was in the NICU for 7 days. I wasn’t traumatized because I survived and that was my goal. I met my goal, and I was really proud of myself for facing the fear, but hoped for something different the next time. With the second birth, I got pregnant in July of 2017. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage early on that resolved. We were in Texas at the time. It was Fort Hood back then, but I met with many different OB providers at the Army hospital on base there. I felt okay with it because I had a neighbor who was going for a VBAC after two C-sections. She was really supported, and then she had a successful experience there. Because of my 35-week PPROM, they suggested that I go on the Makena progesterone shots once a week from 16 to 36 weeks. I did that. They worked very, very well. I switched to the midwife track because everything was going fine. The midwives were really great. They were really holistic. They supported inducing a VBAC if needed, but they also supported me going into spontaneous labor past 41 weeks. I made it to 41 and 5. The VBAC Link was not a thing back then yet, so I did not have that resource, but I did read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth and the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way. I read The Birth Partner. I kind of started dipping my toes into real birth education. I was learning about the physiological process of birth, learning how to do it without being afraid, and learning to trust my body. It was really empowering. It was the prep that I needed at that time. I didn’t know about bodywork. I ended up having prodromal labor for about a week. It was pretty intense, but I didn’t know anything about positioning, posterior, or Spinning Babies. I did find that out right at the end as I was going through it, but I didn’t do chiro or any of that. I finally went in for an induction at 41+5 in April 2018. I ended up having to go with an OB on call because the midwife didn’t feel comfortable with the NSTs that she saw, so she didn’t want to take me on. I was like, “Oh, dangit.” The OB who was there was one who I wasn’t really super comfortable with. But he was like, “Oh, well I know you really want a VBAC. We’ll try to get that for you.” I was like, “Okay.” I got a Foley. I was barely a 1, but they got a Foley in and I progressed very quickly. I got to a 5 within a couple of hours. Things were going really great. They were very normal labor patterns. I felt like I was managing the contractions really well. I did consent to artificial rupture of membranes, then labored a little while longer. I got an epidural at 7 centimeters. I was told, “Oh, we just had a mom who got an epidural. She relaxed, and the baby came right away.” You hear that and you’re like, “Oh, I want that. Yes.” So I did that. I got the epidural at about 6:30ish, and then between that half hour, his heart just wasn’t doing well. They were flipping me. I got an amnioinfusion. I got a fetal scalp electrode. I got an IUPC, all the things. Then they gave me oxygen. It was probably about 7:00. He had a prolonged decel. I was lying flat and there were people all around me. The nurse was just like, “We need him now. Do you consent to a C-section?” I was like, “Yes.” Then I surrendered and let it go. I was like, “There goes the VBAC. This is just what needs to happen.” He was born at 7:09, and I was born under general anesthesia for that one. His APGARS were 8/9. My husband was left alone during that surgery. We do have pictures of him holding my son and doing skin-to-skin at 7:27, so about 20 minutes after he was born. I woke up and got to hold him at about 8:45, so about an hour and a half after he was born. I remember it was just really hard to talk after being intubated, but they let me breastfeed right away. I was disappointed, but I don’t feel like I had a lot of trauma from that just because I was so empowered. I ended up ultimately making it to an 8. It was so fun for me to see what my body could do. I was like, “Oh, this just means that I was meant for a VBAC after two C-sections. That’s what it meant.” Right then in the OR, or I guess it was the recovery room. I committed that that was going to be my story. I was like, “Oh yeah. That’s just what it’s meant to be. That’s why it didn’t work out.” I was so empowered. Then when I got pregnant for the third time in September 2019, we were in Germany. We had just moved there. I hit the ground running. I hired a doula right away and a backup doula. The prenatal care was at this small, tiny clinic in a town called Parsberg. I chose not to get progesterone shots. I was like, “I was 41+5. I think I’ll be okay without them.” Yep, that’s when I discovered The VBAC Link and all of the birth podcasts. I just became obsessed listening all the time, taking notes. I did the bodywork. I watched tons of birth videos. I did cranioscral therapy, chiropractic, and Spinning Babies. I took The VBAC Link Parents Course. I read lots of books. I switched my insurance. I took vitamins. I consumed it all, and I loved it. Every time I did something, I felt like my intuition was confirming that I was on the right path. I specifically would manifest, visualize, and pray, and I just was on this high every time. I feel like that’s your intuition confirming to you that you’re on the right path. If you feel those things, that’s a good sign. You do want to follow that. Meagan: 100%. Paige: I did. Then, COVID. It was September 2019 when I got pregnant. Things were fine, fine, fine, and then COVID started happening. In March, I flew home to Denver to stay with my in-laws. We were supposed to move to Colorado in the spring anyway. My husband was not allowed to come with me. There was a travel ban for 90 days. I just did not want to get stuck in that, so I flew out very quickly with my boys– my two boys. I was 27 weeks pregnant and was living in my in-laws basement. That’s a whole thing. COVID was a whole thing for everybody. But it was a scary time and stressful. I didn’t know if my husband would be able to make it to the birth, but he was granted an exception to policy leave where he was able to come home. He would have to go back. That was the contingency. But I had rebuilt my team. I had found new bodyworkers. I found a new doula and a new backup doula. I found a team of midwives who were really VBA2C supportive. They were saying things like, “When you get your VBAC,” not if. They really supported all the things, so I felt really comfortable with them. I lost my mucus plug and had bloody show on June 8th. I was 40 weeks. That was my due date. My water broke that night at 11:00 PM. I had a small pop, so it was just a litte bit. I was laboring at home. Nothing really was picking up, but on June 9th, at 40+1, I went into the hospital around 3:00 PM. Labor started picking up pretty quickly after that. About an hour and a half later, my waters gushed everywhere which was really thrilling for me to experience the big gush. I was not very far along, though. My progress is just very slow, but they were not rushing me at all. They were like, “We’ll stay patient. We will stay very patient. There is no rush. As long as baby is doing well, we’ll just let you do your thing.” My doula was there. After my waters broke, my contractions started coupling on top of each other and getting very intense. They were quite long. I started feeling really lightheaded and dizzy. I tried to sit on the toilet and just felt like I was going to pass out. I threw up a few times. I knew it was time to get some pain relief. They offered the walking epidural option which I took at about 8:00 PM. Baby was doing great. I was really worried about getting the epidural again because I felt like that’s what had caused the craziness before, but he was doing great. At 2:00 AM, he started not doing great. He wasn’t tolerating the contractions well. I was like, “Oh, not again. What?” I was only 4 centimeters. I just knew that we needed to go in again. I didn’t know why, but I was so sad. I didn’t want another crash, so I did want to prevent another crash. I knew that if it was going to be a heart thing, I didn’t want to mess with that. Especially knowing the signs of pain and coupling contractions and things like that, it just seemed like he was telling me that he needed to come. I consented to the OR and to the C-section. I was wheeled to the OR. I remember as I was being wheeled in, I was just thinking, “This is not what I want. This is not what I want. This is not what I want.” I was so sad. He was born about an hour later. I was so drowsy. I was so tired. I was not present at all. I did not feel strong enough to hold him. My husband held him. I briefly brushed his face. He was wearing his little hat and was swaddled, then they took him to the recovery room. The doula was not allowed in the OR. It was actually a miracle she was allowed at all because they had just lifted the doula ban the week before for COVID. I was like, “Okay, the baby will be in there with her.” I’m not sure why they wouldn’t let the baby just stay with Sam, but it’s okay. I needed his support. I was really happy that he was there. Closure took longer than usual. They said I had pretty thick adhesions, so I was just laying there trying everything to stay awake. I was fighting so hard. I remember reading words on the light and looking at the letters and just going over the letters in my mind and trying to stay awake. I was fighting so hard to stay awake. I finally got to hold him at 4:00 AM in the recovery room. It was still about an hour after he was born. I missed the golden hour again. I was so sad. I was so sad for a third time to miss it. That recovery was really hard. In the hospital, I was so heartbroken. The trauma this time really hit me emotionally and spiritually. It was physically a lot more traumatic on my body for whatever reason. I mean, just the sheer labor was so intense. My incision was black and blue and puffy. I couldn’t walk normally and I didn’t feel normal for 5 or 6 weeks, but I also feel like it’s because I was so sad. I think how sad you are really does affect how you feel physically. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Paige: I do remember specifically too, my first shower there. My husband had to really help me walk over. I was so sticky from all of the sensors and monitors. He was so tenderly trying to help me wash them off. I was just sobbing. I was so sad. I felt so broken and so vulnerable. It was a beautiful time for my husband to be there and carry me because he knew how badly I wanted the VBAC that time and for him to just carry me through that. But going home, I went home to my in-laws' basement. It was dark. I didn’t have a support village because it was COVID. COVID moms know what that was like. Anyway, ultimately, I did reach out to Meagan and Julie. That’s when the CBAC group was started. I was like, “Is there any way we could start a CBAC support group where CBAC moms can connect?” You guys were so warm and welcoming. Immediately you were like, “Yes! Why hadn’t we thought of that?” Julie, you were so gung-ho about that. I was able to connect to other moms through there which was so healing. Anyway, that was the third story. Then the time between three and four was really, really pivotal for me. The healing that I felt I needed before even thinking about trying to get pregnant was where I feel like this all really starts. When you don’t get the birth that you hoped for or when you don’t get a VBAC, you just feel embarrassed. You feel ashamed. You feel broken. You feel like your intuition doubted you. You feel dumb. I’ve seen many women comment how family members would be like, “Oh, I knew it wasn’t going to happen for you.” It’s hard. It’s really hard. You feel very, very broken. I knew that I had to show up for myself and still give myself grace. For this birth, it was good for me because I was able to face not failure, but being wrong. I was able to face being wrong and show myself that I could still be there. Anyway, I started physically diving into healing through pelvic PT and doing a lot of scar adhesion work. The dolphin neurostimulation tools if you haven’t heard about those are fantastic. I feel like they worked much better for me than scar massage. I wish I had a provider here now who would do it. I think maybe that would have helped this pregnancy and birth, but it helped my recovery so much. I started having really bad panic attacks and postpartum anxiety, so I went to talk therapy. I got on medication. I went to a chiropractor again. The thing that really, really helped my healing was joining a gym and falling in love with exercise again. I got into all of the things, the yoga, running, learning how to lift, and started really pushing my body again and trusting my body again. I didn’t expect exercise to heal that relationship with my body, but I feel like it really did. I learned again that I am physically strong which was really, really nice. I started signing up for some races. I ran my first half marathon. I had a lot of emotional releases during yoga. There was one song that came on one time during a yoga practice. It said, “You can’t rush your healing. Darkness has its teaching.” I loved that so much. I just started crying. I was just like, “Let it out.” Part of healing is welcoming the grief when it comes, processing it, and taking it a little bit of a time. It’s such a process. You get little glimmers of understanding, but as you keep committing yourself to looking for that and looking for the understanding, it does come. I truly believe that. Anyway, life went on. There is a four-year gap in between my third and my fourth which I really needed. We moved to Korea in that time. We moved to Korea last June, and it’s just been lovely. We knew that we wanted one more. I knew I was so happy with the prep and how vigorously I did it. I was proud of myself for that and I knew that I wanted to do it the same way. I knew that after everything I learned, even if it was going to be a C-section, I couldn’t just show up to the hospital and have them take my baby. I knew too much. I was like, “I know that there are better ways. I know that providers practice differently from place to place. I know it’s not all equal. I know every provider does things differently, even with C-sections.” I started watching videos, and I saw that even the way they performed their C-sections was not the same. I wanted to be really actively involved in how they practiced, and how I was going to be a part of it. My goals for this time were not necessarily VBAC or C-section. I never closed the door completely. I was like, “You never know. Maybe VBA3C, maybe that’s my story. Who knows?” However, I did find the episode by Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. As I was transcribing that one, my fire for birth that I held felt for VBAC was coming to life again. That intuition was speaking to me, and I had not felt that fire in a long time. That was the first whisperings of, “You should try this. You should go for this.” The goals that I had for this baby were to be very intentional. I wanted the golden hour. I had to have the golden hour. I had to hold my baby first or within an hour. Please, oh my gosh. I carried so much guilt for not having that three times over. I also wanted to be treated like I mattered. I did not want to be part of a rotation. I wanted continuity of care. I did not want to feel like I was just being shuffled through a system. Whether it was a hospital or not, I knew that I wanted to feel special. Lo and behold, did I know how special I would feel at my sweet birth center. Okay, so with the intention thing, just the pieces of this birth story with number four started falling into place so specifically. I can’t deny that spirituality was a big part of this because with number three, my prayers had been very, very specific. I knew that God knew what I wanted. I knew it. I knew that because I didn’t get it, there was a specific reason why. That’s the only thing I could cling to. As things specifically started falling into place, it started to confirm to me that this was my path and these were the reasons why the other things happened the way they did. But anyway, I got pregnant very quickly with this baby. It was the first time that it wasn’t a total surprise which was really fun. I had been taking tests since I knew the day that I ovulated, and then I was just taking tests watching, watching, and watching. I was able to see the first faint line which was so fun. I had always wanted that. I had wanted that moment of, “Oh my gosh, I’m pregnant,” where before it was like, “What? I’m not quite ready,” but I was still excited. That was really fun for that. The Korea birth culture here is very intense. The C-section rate is 50-60%. There are constantly stories being shared on these local pregnancy pages of women just having the most traumatic experiences and my heart aches for them. It’s very routine for doctors to suggest first-time moms to, “Go have a C-section. Your baby is big,” and not even trying to labor. Most of it is because there is a doctor’s strike going on here. There is a limited number of providers. They are stressed. They don’t allow husbands typically in the OR, and very routinely, they are under anesthesia. Then after birth, babies are typically taken away to nurseries, and then postpartum recovery is in an open bay type thing. Meagan: Like, combined? Paige: Exactly, yeah. Your C-section stays are typically about 8 days. I wanted to explore options. We have an Army hospital here that is pretty big and does provide labor and delivery services, but they’re often maxed out so you’re referred off post. I did not feel comfortable going to any of the places that they typically referred to just from stories I had heard. That’s all it takes for me now. I just hear one story and I’m like, “Nope, no thank you.” I know my red flags very quickly now. I went to a tour at this birth center called Houm. It’s spelled H-O-U-M. At 8 weeks, I went to go tour it. I noticed a lot of green flags, not red ones where I was just like, “Oh, I’m just going to take a note of that.” Some of the green flags from my tour as I walked in were how I felt right when you stepped off the elevator. It’s this calm energy. The lighting is so beautiful. It’s such a lovely set up right when you walk in. You take off your shoes because you are in Korea. You take off your shoes, then multiple staff members greeted me with a hug. That’s when I met Dayana Harrison who I later ended up hiring as my doula, but she also served as my midwife. She is a student midwife working there right now. She took me on the tour. They have queen-sized beds in their labor rooms. The whole floor was dim and so quiet. It did not have a hospital vibe at all, but they do have an OR on site. I was like, “Oh, this is lovely.” They offer epidural. They have huge birthing tubs with the rope attached from the ceiling. They are so beautiful. Yeah, it’s in each room. Then the OR on site does not feel like a hospital OR. It’s smaller. They keep it warmer. It feels like– I don’t know. It just had such a homey feeling. That’s the best way I can describe it. Then some of the things I asked about, in their routine gentle Cesareans, moms routinely get skin-to-skin immediately. They have a little cut open in the curtain where baby is slid through right on your chest. They routinely would keep the placenta attached to the baby in the OR which is– Meagan: Almost not heard of. Paige: Since posting that video, I can’t believe how many messages of, “How did you do that?” That’s revolutionary in itself. That was a huge green flag where I was like, “Oh my gosh, what?” Typically, what is it? Why do they say you can’t do that? Is it because the incision is open too long? Meagan: Yeah. They don’t even allow delayed cord clamping most of the time. They just milk it because it’s a major surgery. The more time the mom is exposed and open, the higher chance they have of things like infection. Once baby is out, they really want to wrap it up and finish it to be complete. Yeah. To actually leave a placenta attached to a baby is unheard of. It really is unheard of in a Cesarean. Paige: Yeah. So that was super awesome. Then they let you keep the baby. He encourages C-sections past 39 weeks. That’s not a routine hard and stop final date. He encourages going into labor before saying that it’s good for the baby. He encourages breastfeeding in the OR. The head OB, his name is Dr. Chung. He is also an IBCLC which I thought was so awesome. So he supports breastfeeding. Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Time out. The more I learn about this man, the more I love him. Paige: Did you not know that?! Julie: Oh my gosh. Meagan: I want to meet him. Julie: I want to put him in my pocket and take him with me to deliver every birth I ever go to ever. I love him. Paige: I’ve literally said the exact same thing, Julie. I wish I could just keep him with me forever. That’s the thing. Throughout this whole process, I kept taking note of these green flags. I’m thankful for my other experiences because I don’t think a lot of people recognize how green these flags really are. I was like, “Okay, the shoe’s going to drop. The shoe’s going to drop. There’s something.” I’ll keep going. Meagan: Can I mention too? You had Marco Polo’d me, “I’m on my way,” then you would leave, and you were like, “This is amazing.” You were just like, “This is right,” every single time. The more you went, the more it verified that you were in the right place. Paige: Yep, yeah. You just know. When you know, you know. During that appointment, he came specifically and talked to me three times. Three times. He shook my hand. I’m like, “Are you not busy? What? Three times, you have time to see someone who is just touring?” He only sees 15 patients. He is very VBAMC supportive and experienced with it. He supports vaginal breech birth. They do ECVs on-site. I didn’t even bring up VBAC after three. I just mentioned that I had three C-sections, and he said something like, “Oh, do you want a VBAC? Do you want to try again?” I was like, “Oh, I mean, I don’t know. I’m thinking about it.” Then, he made me cry. This was at the tour. He made me cry because he said, “I’m a different doctor because I listen to moms. I listen. They tell me how they want to birth. If you want a VBAC after three C-sections, I will support you. You can do it. You choose how you want your birth to go and I will worry about the bad.” He was like, “You don’t need to worry.” I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I started crying. I was like, “Okay, I’m going to go now.” I was not composed, and then he hugged me. I was like, “What? Who is this guy?” I didn’t just jump over there. I did give the Army hospital a chance. I went to a couple of appointments there, and that was kind of all I needed to know for what I wanted. I’m so thankful they are a resource there. I’m thankful that they are here. But I did ask about their routine Cesarean practices and their VBAC practices. It was important to me to find a doctor who supported VBAC even if that wasn’t what I was planning to go for. I still love VBAC so much. I think it’s so beautiful and such an important option for women to have. I’m so passionate about it. I always will be. They didn’t even humor the idea at all of VBAC after three. They were like, “Oh, no. You’re going to have a C-section. Of course.” The idea was laughable. The C-sections only allowed one support person, no breastfeeding in the OR, no photographers. Arms are strapped down. I just was like, “Okay.” I was very gently asking questions, but then was like, “Uh-uh. Red, red, red flags.” My biggest piece of advice, and we say this over and over again, is to find a provider whose natural practices align with the things that you want. Julie: That is it. That is it so much. Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt again, but let’s put bold, italics, emphasis, and exclamation points on what you just said. Say it again. Say it again for the people in the back. Paige: Find that provider whose routine practices align as closely as possible with what you want. Julie: Preach, girl. Preach, girl. I love it. Paige: Because we’re not meant to fight. You do not want your birth experience to be a place of fighting or stress. Julie is learning that I am a people pleaser. I’m not anything special. I did not stand my ground. I’m going to do this. I did not come blazing in. I found a provider who I felt very, very safe with, who I felt safe asking for this from, and he said yes. I knew that because his practices were so close to the MAC, he would be the most receptive. But there’s a chance that he wouldn’t have been, and he was. That’s why ultimately it worked out because he was receptive. I couldn’t have forced him to do it, but because he practices closely to it already, it wasn’t as much of a push. If I tried to go to that Army hospital and introduce this idea, they’d just shut it down. Meagan: You know, that’s what is so heartbreaking to me. Providers all over the world really just shut that down if it doesn’t match their normal routine and their everyday thing. It’s like, well, hold on. Let’s listen. Why are people requesting this? Just like Dr. Natalie, she saw this and was like, “This is something that means something to people. Why don’t we change the norm and create something different?” Providers, if you are listening, please try and make change in your area because it matters, and it doesn’t have to be exactly how it’s been. Paige is living proof of this. It just doesn’t have to be that. But we can’t make change if no one puts forth the effort or allows it. Paige: Dr. Natalie said that exactly. She said, “Let’s make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.” Meagan: Yes. Yes. Paige: She said, “If there’s a way to make it better, why not? Why not?” Meagan: Why not? Because like it or not, birth impacts us. It sticks with us. You’re now explaining four different stories. It’s not something we just forget. We don’t just walk away from these experiences. They stay with us. Now, we might process and are able to move forward in a different direction, but it’s not like we forget, so why can’t we make this change? It actually baffles me. Julie: Well, and the mode of delivery is the same. I really want to emphasize that. She has had four C-sections, and they were all very different. But the only one where she left walking out of it really feeling empowered is the last one where she chose a provider who aligned with what she desired for her birth, she had a say in her care, and she felt loved and supported the whole way. She felt like the staff cared about her needs. But also, time out. She didn’t just feel like the staff cared about her needs. They did. They did actually, genuinely care about her needs and her experience. I feel like that’s such a big difference. Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Sorry, Paige. You can continue. We got on a little soapbox. Paige: You’re good. Julie: I feel like we’re starting to tell the story before the story is told. Paige: No, it’s great. We’re getting close. I switched to them officially at 20 weeks. My first appointment was the anatomy scan. That’s when I also proposed the idea of the MAC officially. After every ultrasound, he comes in, talks to you, looks at it, then you go into his office area where you just chat and ask any questions. That’s just the routine setup of the appointments. I had this video prepared, and I was really nervous. It’s scary. It is scary to ask your provider for something new and different. I had this video. It’s on YouTube. It’s by Olive Juice Photography. Everybody should go look at it. It’s the birth of Betty Mae. It’s the video that I watched over and over and over again because it’s the only video I could find of the process from the beginning to the end including all of the prep and including how it was done. I was like, “I saw this online. I was wondering if you could watch it and tell me what you think.” That’s how I presented it. It’s a long video. It was like, 5 minutes. He just sat there patiently and watched. Then after, actually one thing he did say was, “I don’t like how he’s using forceps.” I was like, “Oh, green flag.” Then, he asked, “Is this what you want?” I said, “Yeah. I think it would be really special if it could happen.” Then, he said, “Then, we can do that.” Then, he thanked me for giving him the opportunity to grow and try something different. He said, “Will you email that video to me and any other resources?” I emailed Dr. Natalie, and she sent over a MAC PowerPoint that she had prepared of the procedures because from the episode, she was like, “Anybody interested doing this, reach out to me.” She is true to her word. She will do that. If you are interested and you want to contact her, she is very responsive. She sent me also her MAC hospital policy which I forwarded to him. I have to share what he said. He’s so cute. In the email response, he said, “I watched the video you sent again. If necessary, we will contact Dr. Natalie to prepare for your perfect Cesarean delivery. Thank you so much for this great opportunity to serve you. I am excited to help your birth and confident it will be a great opportunity for further growth for us.” I was like, oh my gosh. Meagan: That literally just gave me the chills. Paige: I could not believe it. Dayana, who is also a student midwife there at home, told me that she had been planting seeds for maternal assist for a while. They had just been waiting for a mom to ask for it. That was also the time that I hired Julie. I was like, “Julie, that would be so fun if you could come out.” Then Julie was like, “Okay, let’s do it.” Then I’m like, “Okay.” Then it happened, and Julie was just so brave to have the gumption to come out. Fun fact, she was previously stationed out here with the Army. It does seem like it all kind of worked out that Korea wasn’t so out of touch for her, maybe. Julie: Yeah, no. It was really cool. You had mentioned it briefly, then I was like, “Oh, I wish I could make that work.” Then, I remember I was in the CBAC group. I was like, “Oh, I’m so excited for you,” or something, then you said something like, “I really wish you could come and document it. We would cover your travel out here and everything.” Then I was like, “Oh my gosh, really?” So then I talked to my husband about it. I was going to be gone for a while. He would have to hold down the fort and everything. I talked to him and he was like, “Yeah, I think that would be okay.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, Paige. My husband is fine with it. Let’s do this.” I remember the day that you booked my flights and officially signed my contract and locked in and everything, then I told my husband and he was like, “Oh, this is really happening then?” I was like, “Nick, I gave you the change. I gave you the chance to eject. It’s too late now.” He’s been doing really great. He’s a really great dad. The on-call life means he has to just take over the house at random moments. We are set up to where we can do that. It was just really funny. I’m so excited that we could make it work. Paige: This is my public thanks to Nick and all of Julie’s children for allowing her to be here because it did require sacrifice on their part, truly. I’m just so thankful. I also found out, Dayana told me that she had been asked to prepare a whole presentation for the staff on MAC which she did. She prepared it for nurses, midwives, and anesthesia walking them through. The fact that she had that connection to Houm and that experience, she served as my doula but so much more. She was so much more as my advocate having that inside access to the staff. We scheduled a surgical rehearsal for 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, this was one of my favorite things. He personally was there to walk me through every step of what it would look like for my security, but I don’t feel like I really needed it because I was very, very familiar, but for the comfort of the staff and everybody else too. I got to the appointment. My husband was able to be there with me on that one. The way it’s set up– we’ll post our video then you can visualize more of what the layout looks like. There’s the prep room, then literally 10 steps across is the OR right there. In the prep room, they had a gown ready for me. They had the washing bins ready. So the way that it works, you go in. You put the gown on. You have the IV. They showed me where they would place the IV. Then you scrub up your hands. You wash with the sterile solution, and then they put gloves on top. This was the way that they did it. Then they walked me into the OR. They showed me how I would go sit up on the table, how I would receive my spinal through anesthesia, then they practiced laying me back down. They did everything step by step. It wasn’t new to me. I’ve had C-sections before, so I knew, but it was just so sweet that they were so thorough. They showed me how they would insert the catheter. He showed me exactly how he would lay the drapes over my body. He showed me when the curtain would go up. The way they do it, you’re not just watching the whole thing the whole time. You could, I guess, opt for that if you wanted to. You have the drape up, they do the initial incision, get the baby out up to his head, and then they drop the curtain. That’s when they pull your arms down. The other thing too, the reason why they do strap your arms down is in case you impulsively reach down and touch your incision and breach the sterile field. That’s the reason why arms being strapped down is even a thing. But for MAC, your arms are not strapped down obviously. They have somebody holding their hand on your hands which I don’t think I even had. Looking back, I don’t remember anybody touching my hands or my arms. But that wasn’t an issue. It wasn’t something that I impulsively wanted to do, to reach down there. Anyway, then the drape goes down. They guide your hands up and over to put your hands under his armpits. Come up. Bring your baby to your chest. The curtain goes back up during closure, and then they talked about how I’d be transferred back to the recovery room– not the recovery room. No recovery room. You go to the postpartum room immediately. I felt on such a high after that. It was just so beautiful how he did that. At 38 weeks, I had an ultrasound. They do ultrasounds at every appointment. I don’t know that there is a perfect practice out there that aligns with absolutely everything you want. But they do routine ultrasounds. I wasn’t really concerned about that, but they did flag something called kidney hydronephrosis. It’s basically the swelling of the kidney. They had been monitoring that. It had presented late in the third trimester, but it was severe enough that they were starting to get really concerned about it. Basically, it can mean that there is an obstruction, and if it’s really severe, it can mean that the baby needs to be evaluated within 48 hours of birth by a pediatric urologist which clearly they don’t have on site. It was a whole thing. If it really is severe and there is an obstruction, then they need to do surgery really promptly to prevent kidney damage early on. That was the thing. He did suggest that I could deliver somewhere else, and then the baby would be able to be there and we would be together in the same facility. That’s when I felt like the shoe dropped. I was like, “Why would he suggest that? He knows that I would not want to deliver anywhere else. Why would he even bring that up?” I was all a mess. I was alone at that appointment. I felt a little bombarded and ambushed. I was like, “This isn’t going to happen. I’m not going to get it.” That night, Dayana called me. I was getting ready to reach out to her, but she called me. She was like, “I just wanted to check in.” I had emailed Dr. Chung a clarification email. I think that’s really important too. If something doesn’t sit well with you in your appointment, it’s okay to follow up in an email just to clarify what happened. Can you lay out these options? Can you lay out what we went through? Can I have a record of the ultrasound and what you saw? Because then you’re not just swirling these things in your mind. You’re actually looking, then you can do your own research. I dove into research. I dove into studies. I compared the numbers that he gave me versus what I saw, and it all did align. She called me and she was like, “No, don’t worry. He is comfortable moving forward. He thought that you would be concerned, so he wanted to present you with more options to deliver somewhere else, but he is very happy to deliver you here still and sticking with our plan. He does want to see you at a follow-up ultrasound at 39 weeks,” which I was comfortable with. I was like, “Sam, you’ve got to come with me. I can’t go alone.” She promised that she would be there. That’s another thing. When you have a team that you trust, make sure that you are supported, and it’s not just you and your doctor. If there’s something that doesn’t sit well, it really helps to field it with other people not just in labor, even in your prenatal appointments or anything like that. If you feel like you need some extra support, it does really help to bring some people with you who you trust. So at 39 weeks, we all met as a team and asked lots of questions. We felt comfortable with a care plan moving forward. We ultimately decided that we would move forward with the C-section at 39+5 which would be Monday. I’m trying to think what day that was. Meagan: The 7th. Paige: Monday, the 7th. Meagan: That’s what I had in my calendar. Paige: Monday, the 7th was the day. We talked about moving it up. All his colleagues were like, “No, you should deliver this baby now. What are you doing? You’re crazy keeping her pregnant.” I was like, “I am comfortable waiting, and I have to wait for Julie, so it can’t be until Friday. It can’t be until Friday.” She gets in on Thursday. That was Wednesday, at 39 weeks. Thursday was 39 and 1. Julie was on the plane, and then that morning on Thursday, I lost my mucus plug at about 8:00 AM. I was like, “Oh, no.” I wasn’t really having contractions or anything, so I was like, “Okay. We’ll still make it until Monday. It’s fine.” Then, Julie got in at about 7:00 PM. I started having some baby contractions. We were sitting around my kitchen table, and Julie was like, “Are you contracting right now?” I was like, “A little.” She was like, “Go take a bath.” Then, we went to bed. I took a bath, and then I went to bed. I was for sure just contracting. I was like, “But what about these logistics? What is going to happen?” Anyway, my childcare plan was going to be turned upside down and all of the things. I was stressed about the logistics. But then, I was woken up at about 10:00 PM by contractions. They were about 6-7 minutes apart, but they were definitely real. I thought they were prodromal, so I was just waiting for them to just go away. They started getting closer. They were close enough to about 4 minutes and sometimes 3. I was having more bloody show, so I was like, “These are kind of doing something.” The intensity increased. It got to the point where I couldn’t lie down. I was on my hands and knees. I was standing up, bracing myself against the wall. I was trying to do different positions. Maybe it was just a positional thing. “Let me try to do flying cowgirl. Let me try to do Walcher’s”. I was trying to do different positions to try to stop them. I tried to take a bath at 3:00 AM, and they weren’t going away. I was like, “Okay, I can’t do this. I can’t risk it. We’ve got to go.” I woke up my husband. I was like, “Today’s the day. He’s just telling me that it’s the day. It’s time. I don’t know why, but it’s Friday. It’s supposed to be.” At 4:00 AM, he packed his bags. At 5:00 AM, I felt so bad because Julie had just gotten in from this huge international flight. It was a 12-hour flight plus some because you had a connection. I was like, “Julie, we’re going to go,” she was like, “Okay!” She was so excited. “Okay, let’s go!” Julie: I wake up to a knock on the door, and they’re all dressed and ready to go. I’m like, “Why did she not wake me up sooner? I could have supported you.” Paige: I felt so bad. Julie: Yeah. It was wild. It was so wild. I was ready. It was awesome. Paige: So at 5:00 AM, we left for the birth center. At 6:00 AM, we got there. I messaged my team. Dayana said she was on her way. They led me to my room which is just a beautiful suite. It’s right next to the OR. They led me to my room. They said that the anesthesiologist would be ready at about 10:00 AM, so between then, I would be laboring. Dr. Chung came in, and he said, “You need to be prepared for a VBAC to happen. You might have this baby just right here.” It was so funny that he was supportive of that idea even. It was so cute. I labored. It was getting intense, but they weren’t super close together. Dayana came. She jumped in, and she immediately just respected the space which was so beautiful. She started doing all of her– she’s a Body Ready Method practitioner. She’s done some training with Lynn Schulte and the Institute for Birth Healing, so she’s very familiar with the specific way to give you comfort measures. She was so great. I felt so safe. We labored, and my husband gave me a beautiful blessing. She said the more beautiful prayer that really invited heaven into the space and made it so spiritual and special. We were playing music, then at 9:00 AM, the head midwife, her name is Joy, came in. She started the IV. Dr. Chung came in and walked me to the prep room. In our rehearsal, I was going to be scrubbing myself, but he just picked up my hands, and he started washing my hands and scrubbing my hands for me. It felt like such a selfless act getting ready to go into this procedure. It felt like he was so respectful, and then I even had a contraction during the washing. He stopped what he was doing and was so respectful of the space. It just felt so Christlike having him wash my hands going into it. Then we walked into the OR, and they got me ready for anesthesia. They put in the spinal, and then they laid me down. They did the pinprick test. They gave me a new gown that was sterile. I’m trying to think of what else. They inserted the catheter. I could kind of feel a little bit with the pinprick test, but the catheter insertion was just pressure, so I felt comfortable moving forward. They got started. We played music. They had ice ready for me on my face because I told them when I get nauseous or anxious, I tend to get a little lightheaded. They had ice ready for me. That was something I had requested, and that was so nice. They started the surgery, and it was very, very intense. I do want to be candid that it was probably my most painful surgery. I had to work through it with labor-coping stuff. I was vocal. I did mention that I was feeling pain. It got pretty intense. I don’t know if in Korea in general– I know that they are a little bit more stingy about anesthesia, but it was okay. I don’t feel like I was traumatized from that. The baby came out at about 10:24. That’s when they say he was born. We were listening to music. I was vocalizing, then Dr. Chung says– what did he say? “Let’s meet your baby,” or “Come grab your baby”, or something like that. They lowered the drape, and it was so fast. I bring the baby up onto my chest, and everything just melted away, and this instinctual, primal– all of these emotions I didn’t know I had just poured out of me. I lost any sense of composure that I had. I was shrieking. In any other situation, I would have been so mortified, but that moment of not having it three times over, it was this release and this justification or this validation of finally having it. I just got to hold my baby. I was a little nervous about seeing a new baby for the first time without being swaddled and how they would be wet and slippery, and if that would freak me out a little bit, but I wasn’t worried about that at all. I was just so happy that I had him and so relieved. During closure, that was also intense too. They put the curtain up. They pulled out the placenta. They put it in a bowl, and then they put it in a bag, and they rest it right there next to you. The cord was so lovely and so beautiful. There is something about a fresh, new cord. It is so awesome to see. I thought it was the coolest. I had my husband. I was squeezing his hand. Honestly, I felt like having my baby in my arms and holding my husband’s hand was the best pain relief. In that moment, it was keeping me calm, keeping me steady, and getting me through the closure and the rest of the surgery. Then they transferred me to my postpartum room, and they just let us be there. They didn’t push cutting the cord. Dayana gave me a placenta tour. I was like, “When do we cut the cord?” She was like, “Whenever you want.” It ended up being about 2 hours of us just enjoying it and talking about how cool it was. Yeah. She gave us a tour. I was able to wear gloves and touch it and go through it, then Sam was able to cut the cord for the first time which was so awesome. That’s the gist of it. Meagan: Oh my goodness. I started crying. I’ve gotten chills. I have so many emotions for you just watching your video. I’ve literally watched it 10, maybe 15 times, and I can’t wait to see Julie’s entire thing that she caught. But I am just so– there are no words. I’m so happy for you. I’m so proud of you, and I’ve talked to you about this. I’ve Marco Polo’d you crying before where I can’t explain it. I am so insanely proud of you and happy for you that you got this experience. Thinking about, “I’ve never seen a gooey baby. I’ve never had that opportunity. My husband has never been able to cut the cord,” and you were able to have this beautiful experience where you got to have all of those things. It took four babies to get there, but you got there. You got there because you put forth the work. You learned. You grew, and you were determined. I think as listeners, as you’re listening, sometimes that’s what it takes. It’s really diving in, putting forth that effort, and finding what’s true for you. I know it’s hard, and I know not every provider out there is like Dr. Chung. He is a diamond in the rough from what it sounds like on so many levels. But they do exist. Again, going back to what you were saying, sometimes it just talks about Paige going in and saying, “Try to have an open mind. Look at this video. I would like for you to view this. Just take a look at it,” and left it in his hands. Sometimes, it just takes something so simple. But, oh my gosh. I can’t believe it. We were Marco Poloing about episodes, you guys, before she was in labor. We were also Marco Poloing about social media posts. She was like, “I just don’t want to say anything until it happens.” I think sometimes even then, I wonder if that’s where that ultrasound had come in and maybe there was doubt. I don’t know. It seems like maybe that aligns pretty well with the time that we were messaging and that. Maybe we were Marco Poloing or texting. I don’t know. It’s like, could this happen? Is it really going to happen? You want it to happen so bad, and then to see it unfold and to have it unfold in such raw beauty, oh my goodness. I cannot believe it. So in the OR, they let Julie in there, right? Paige: Oh, yeah. Dr. Chung is a photographer himself. Julie had asked me to ask him if she could move around or if she had to be stationary. He was so open to her walking anywhere and having free range of movement and having multiple sources of video and photo. Julie: Yeah, it was really cool. I want to speak a little bit to that side of things if that’s okay for a minute. Being a birth photographer is kind of complicated and sometimes logistically crazy especially as the baby is being born because everybody has a job to do. Not every provider and nurse is supportive– maybe not supportive. Not every provider and nurse is respectful of the fact that I also have a job to do and that these parents are paying me not a small amount of money to come in and do this job. That is very important to them to have this birth documented in a special way. It can be tricky navigating that especially times ten when it comes to being in the operating room. I have about a 50% success rate of getting in the OR back home. Some hospitals are easier than others. It’s always an honor and a privilege, I feel, when providers create a way for me to go in the OR because Cesarean birth is just as important, maybe even more important to have documented because it comes as a healing tool and a way to process the birth especially when most Cesareans are not planned. It was really cool to hear ahead of time about how supportive Dr. Chung was and how amazing he was going to be to let this happen. When we were in there, I don’t think I’ve ever moved around an OR as much as I have in that OR. Providers will tell you, “Oh, you’re not allowed in because the operating room is so small. Oh, the sterile field, we want to make sure you don’t pass out when you’re in there.” I think all of these excuses that people give are just regurgitating things. They don’t want another person in the OR. It’s just kind of dumb because that was the smallest OR that I have ever been in. I still was able to document it beautifully. I respected the sterile field. I wasn’t in anybody’s way. People were in my way which is fine because they had a way more important job to do to make sure Paige didn’t bleed out and that the baby was born and that Paige’s needs were met and things like that. I’m okay. I’m used to navigating around people in the space. I’m perfectly comfortable with that. It was so beautiful. I was down at her feet. Paige, I’ve actually been going through your images and choosing ones to include in your final gallery while you’ve been talking. I cannot wait to show you this. I have images of Dr. Chung pulling his head out, still images, of the head being born through the incision. It’s like crowning shots. It is this beautiful image of this baby’s head being born. Obviously, you’ve seen the one of his head all the way out. I just think it’s so beautiful. I consider it such a privilege and such and honor to have as much freedom in that room. I was literally at her feet, Meagan, documenting while he was cutting her open the adhesions and all of those things. There is video. There were images. I have chills right now. And then as baby was born, I was able to move up by her shoulders and document that and her reaching down for baby. I have all of that. I think that is such one more reason why Dr. Chung is amazing. It is such a rare gem, a diamond in the rough, because Paige now has the documentation for this beautiful story, and it’s just one more thing where we have work to do. We have lots of work to do, lots of work to do, and lots of advocacy with people asking for this. I just think it’s so important and so cool. It’s such a rare thing. I don’t even think I would have been able to do all of this back in the States. Meagan: No. Julie: I just think it was so cool. I’m determined to get these images to you before I leave so we can look at them together. I cannot wait for you to see them. I can’t. I’m just so excited. Paige: Well, it just makes me think of how often you’ve said, “If you don’t know your options, you don’t have any.” The purpose behind this, and why I felt I really did want to go for this option, and what was pulling me to it, is because I want to create options for women and to show them what’s possible. That’s why I wanted Julie to come. I wanted her. I told her specifically, “Document every step of the process so that women have more resources to see the ways we do it.” I didn’t do it exactly like the Olive Juice photography video. There are little variances between it, and that’s okay. But it was still so beautiful, so wonderful, and then also, I asked her to document the surgery itself because so much of it is going back and trying to process it in your mind while you’re going through it. I’m so glad she did. We walked through it last night, just the moment when I was in the most pain. It was actually really wonderful to see what he was doing which I wasn’t in the space to see at that time, but to go back and see, “Okay, that makes sense because he was maneuvering so much,” and to connect it. The connection piece was so valuable. For every Cesarean, I’m so passionate now that you need a doula. You need a midwife in there. You need a birth photographer. You need everybody in there. I knew it, but now, I’m so passionate that we need to advocate for ourselves just as much for planned Cesareans. Meagan: Absolutely. I still can’t believe it. I’m so happy. I love this story so much. I believe everyone should hear it because like you said, we need to be educated so we can apply what we need. We don’t know what we don’t know. This is what we’ve heard for so many years, but we can know. We can know our options, and it does take us doing it most of the time. The medical world out there is trying sometimes. Sometimes, they are not trying as well. But they are trying. They are also capped in a lot of ways with resources and with time. There’s just a lot that goes into it. So, dive in, you guys. Learn. Follow what you need. Follow what your heart is saying. If your heart is saying, “I want a different experience, it’s okay to push for that different experience.” Paige: Yeah, definitely. I’ll attach a lot of the resources that I used to help me in my prep. But I did just want to cap off by saying that I don’t feel like I’m anything special. I am not a birth worker. I am not a nurse. I don’t have a history of medical stuff. Dr. Chung was so cute. He was joking that I was a surgeon and getting ready to go do the surgery, but I’ve always been squeamish at blood and things like that. Don’t feel like you don’t want to go for it because you’re afraid that it will be a scary thing. It is such a natural, beautiful thing. It doesn’t feel as medical as it might seem. And even if you are scared, I was scared. It’s okay to do it scared if you think that it might be something beautiful and if your heart is, like Meagan said, calling you to it. We’re just moms, and moms are powerful, and that’s enough. Meagan: I love that. Julie: I love that. I think it’s really important. Paige, first of all, you are special, and this is why. Not everybody is brave enough to ask questions and be curious. It sounds so simple, and in a way, it is simple, but it’s not easy. I think that what makes you special and what truly sets you apart is that you were curious. You were exploring. You were asking questions. You were looking. You were learning, and not everyone will do that. I wish more people would do that because that’s what creates the change. You have to have people who are receptive to your needs, and you did. That is such a privilege and it’s so lucky because not everyone is going to be able to find that provider who aligns with the things that they need. But I feel like the most important thing that you did was be curious. Ask questions. Get to know what your options were. You looked at the hospital on post. You looked at the places they referred out to. You were like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,” and you kept looking. You kept exploring, and that’s what led you to this beautiful thing. Not everyone does that. It is not easy. It is hard. It took you a long time in order to find the thing, but this is the reality of it. Pregnancy is 9 months long which goes by so fast, but it’s lots of time. The time to start preparing is not 36 weeks when you realize your provider is going to do a bait and switch. The time to start getting ready is not 38 weeks when your provider wants to schedule a Cesarean for tomorrow. The time to get ready and ask questions and learn more is early on in pregnancy. That’s exactly what you did. That’s what I wish more people would do because it breaks my heart every time I see in The VBAC Link Community or any birth community ever or any birth story is people being sidelined by their provider at 38 weeks or 36 weeks because they are doing a bait and switch. It’s not always their fault. I realize I maybe sound like I’m blaming the parents. I’m not blaming the parents. I’m blaming the system. The system is failing them. But, you can never ask too many questions. You can never be too curious. I feel like if you find a provider who you love, keep looking for other options. Keep looking for other things because you never know when things are going to align. By searching for other options and other methods of delivery or other providers, you’re either going to to find one that aligns better with you or be affirmed that you’re making the right choice. There’s never a time when you should stop being curious. That’s exactly what you did. You kept being curious. You kept searching and finding better options or being solidified in your beliefs and your choices. I think that’s really important. And you are special. Paige: Thanks. You’re the best. Julie: Everybody is special. You’re special, but you don’t have any magical powers to create this avenue for you. You’re special in that you did this when it was hard. It’s simple, but it’s hard. Everybody can have that. Everybody can do the things that you did. Not everyone is going to find a Dr. Chung because he really is one in a million, I think. But yeah. Hopefully, that makes sense. Meagan: When you were saying, “I’m not special”, what came to my mind is that sometimes when we hear stories like this and see videos and things like this, it’s like, they must have superpowers because that doesn’t seem possible. That person must be so amazing to have made that possible. You guys, I will be the first to tell you that Paige is absolutely incredible, but she isn’t superwoman, and neither are Julie and I or any other people on this podcast. We’re not. We don’t have superpowers. We just dove in, followed our intuition, knew what felt right, and went for it. Sometimes that means starting before. Sometimes that means you find out information at 25 weeks and you’re like, “Oh crap. I’m 25 weeks behind, but I’m going to do this anyway,” and you dive in head first. No matter where your journey is, you deserve that. You deserve that. All of these Women of Strength here, just like Paige, can do it. You can, too. You really can, too. You guys are amazing. Make change. It’s okay. Know that you matter. You matter. Julie: Well, and it’s never too late. It’s never too late to get curious. If you find yourself at 38 weeks, and your provider is doing stupid things, get curious. Look. Search. Find. Create. Do something different, but try really hard not to just sit on your hands and hope for the best. Paige: Well, and if you’ve had a CBAC, or if you have done all of those things and it hasn’t worked out, it’s okay to take a chance on yourself again. It’s okay to be vulnerable again and to try again. It’s so hard, but it’s okay to do it again and try again. Meagan: Yeah, and to rap on that. If you do try again, and for some reason, it doesn’t pan out the exact way you want it, at least you went for it and you felt that you wanted to try, and you did try, and be involved in that situation too in that environment if it’s not working out. For me, I really wanted a VBAC. Could it have happened? Probably. Did it happen? No. As I was laying there on the operating table, we made that experience better. We made a better experience where I got that skin-to-skin because I didn’t get that the first time. I saw it. Even though it didn’t work out, that, to me, was the most healing experience. A lot of people think that’s weird to say, “You’re Cesarean was healing?”, but look at Paige. I will say wholeheartedly that my second Cesarean was healing. Even if it doesn’t work out, know that you still have options. There are other ways that you can do it. You don’t just have to be in this bright, sterile, beeping, noisy room. You can have music. You can have them lower the drape or have a clear drape. Maybe that’s not something you’re interested in, but maybe you want skin-to-skin. Maybe you want to talk to them about delayed cord clamping or even bringing that baby with the placenta like in Paige’s situation. These little things that might seem little impact us in such big ways. I just think it’s so important to know to believe in yourself. It’s okay to try again. If for some reason, it doesn’t work out, you can still make the situation better. Julie: Yep. I love that. We were talking a little bit about this too. The biggest indicator of birth trauma whether a parent has trauma related to their birth experience is not the mode of delivery or whether their birth went to plan or anything like that. It’s whether the parents felt safe and heard. It’s whether they felt like the provider heard them. They felt like they had a decision in what was happening to them. They felt like they were cared for and loved. That is the biggest indicator of whether or not a parent will have trauma related to their birth. You can have a VBAC and have birth trauma, and you can have a C-section and have trauma. You can have a CBAC and have trauma, but you can also have a very empowered vaginal birth, a very empowered VBAC, a very empowered CBAC, and a very empowered planned repeat Cesarean depending on how you perceive you were treated. Paige: Yeah. Dr. Chung came to me multiple times after to debrief. He said, “I carry so much guilt for the pain that you felt. I carry so much guilt. I’m so sorry.” I was like, “What?” I had forgotten about it because everything else, the postpartum care and the way that they treated me– their postpartum practices, we didn’t even touch on that, but everything was so lovely, so individualized, so beautiful, and I just told him, “Dr. Chung, let it go. It’s okay. You have loved and cared for me so well.” It’s so true, Julie, what you said. Meagan: Oh, all right, you guys. It’s hard to say goodbye. It’s hard to say good night because it’s starting to get late here. It’s daytime there. I just love you guys. I love you so much, and I’m so glad that we could get together while both of you are together in Korea and record this amazing story that I know will be definitely cherished for so many women. Yeah. It’s just amazing. Again, I’m so happy for you, Paige, and I love you and congratulations. Paige: Thank you so much. I love you both. I’m so thankful that we’ve crossed paths and just so thankful to be a part of this team. The way that you both advocate for women and advocate for change makes such a difference. Closing Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com . Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donations Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands