About this episode
Lynn Schulte, the founder of the Institute for Birth Healing, was featured on The VBAC Link Podcast Episode 123 back in 2020 and today she is back! So many of you loved her information about Cesarean scar massage and know her insight about pelvic assessment, movement restriction, and balancing uterine ligaments will be just as valuable to you. Lynn gives tips on how to tell during pregnancy if you need pelvic assessment and also the three signs to watch for to know if scar tissue is interfering with your quality of life. Through the Institute of Birth Healing, Lynn has trained hundreds of practitioners all over the world to be able to assess more women for pelvic restriction and to know just what to do about it. She shares how to find one of her practitioners in your area. While pelvic floor physical therapy may require investing more in yourself both from your time and finances, the benefits can last for years to come and are so, so worth it. Lynn's Educational Platform Clinical Practice Website Institute for Birth Healing Directory Blog: Preparing the Pregnant Body Blog: Supporting Pregnant Clients YouTube: How to Massage Your C-section Scar Lynn's Live Course Schedule Institute for Birth Healing: All Courses Needed Website How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents Full Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a returning guest with us today and her name is Lynn Schulte. She is with the Institute for Birth Healing and she was with us, I don’t know, 3 or 4 years ago talking about scar massage, and today she is going to be talking with us more about pelvic floor health and the cervix and failure to progress and so much more. Today, I am so excited to share with you guys again Lynn. Before we get started, I wanted to tell you a little bit more about her. Lynn Schulte is a Pelvic Health Physical Therapist for over 30 years. She is the principle instructor and founder of the Institute for Birth Healing. She has successfully healed thousands of women from all the issues women experience after birth and is now teaching courses to bodyworkers to help them do the same. She found a common birth pattern that shows up in the pelvis after birth and knows how to effectively release these patterns. Knowing we are more than just our bodies, Lynn works on all levels, physically, energetically, and spiritually with women to help them access their full potential. She also teaches bodyworkers how to work with the energy of the body and how to access and use your intuition in your bodywork sessions. She offers a certification process to help birth professionals become Birth Healing Practitioners. Lynn holds a Bachelor of Science in Physical Therapy from St. Louis University in St. Louis, Missouri and I am seriously so excited to have her back on today. Before we get going on this amazing episode, I did want to share a Review of the Week and this is on our Parent’s Course. It’s from Jenna and she says, “I just started but already have learned so much. After two C-sections and one where my doctor made me think it was very risky, I was terrified to try again. With this course, not only have I learned the truth about VBAC, but I’m also excited to attempt mine in August.” Sending you all the love Jenna and seriously, let us know how things go. If you guys are looking to dive more into what VBAC looks like, what the history of Cesarean looks like, what the evidence is on VBAC and how to increase your chances of having a VBAC, check out theVBAClink.com. We have courses for both parents and doulas wanting to learn more about supporting birth couples around you. Meagan: Okay, so Lynn, I am so excited to dive in today again with you. It’s so cool that you have been on before. We were just talking about it before we started recording– a long time ago it feels like and now we are circling back and I was telling her you guys, I actually found her very, very first– I actually didn’t even know about pelvic floor therapy or any of that really like pelvic floor health or anything and do you want to know how sad it is? By the time I found Lynn and her YouTube page back in 2019 probably, I had three babies. I had three babies. Lynn: Yep. Meagan: That to me right there is a problem. Lynn: Totally. Totally. Yeah, let me tell you what that problem is in my world, okay Meagan? We do a wonderful job in our country here in the States of taking care of mom and baby and making sure mom stays alive and baby stays alive. Where we fail pregnant people is where nobody is assessing or treating what I like to call the birth door. The birth door is that passageway. The pelvis and the pelvic floor muscles are the birth door. I’ve just seen way too many times in my practice where women have issues. One client came to me because she wanted a vbac and she had 42 hours of labor. I went to assess her and her tailbone was sticking straight up into the pelvic outlet so the baby’s head was hammering it for 42 hours and why? My heart broke for her because I was like, “Why did nobody assess this?” Meagan: Right? Lynn: It blows my mind that doctor’s aren’t aware to check that the pelvis is capable of birthing a baby. Now, I don’t want to give moms the wrong feeling here because most pelvises, a large majority of pelvises, are able to get a baby out when the baby comes into the pelvis in an appropriate manner. Where we are failing moms is that the doctors are not as concerned about the position of the baby, about the balance of the baby and the way the baby is entering into the pelvis. It’s like they don’t even understand that component. Nobody is assessing to see is anything in the way? Is anything going to be in the way of my baby coming through my pelvis? That’s where a pelvic health PT can come in and do that assessment for you. If you see one of the pelvic practitioners who I’ve trained, they know exactly what to look for and not only look for but what to do about it when they do find things. Meagan: Yeah, so I was going to say that we find it. We recognize it, then is there something to do? A to-do? And the answer is yes? Lynn: For the most part. For that one client whose tailbone was sticking straight up, it was fused in that position. Meagan: Was it? Lynn: It was so there was no mobility of that tailbone to be able to move out of the way so what I love about my work is working with a pregnant person and really getting a chance to evaluate what her pelvic bones are doing and the position of them and trying to treat what we can but when we can’t make effective change, I like giving the information to the birth team to say, “Hey, if labor stalls, you might want to push here.” Sometimes I will get a marker out. I get a Sharpie out and I put a big X on a person’s sacrum because the sacrum needs to be nice and even for a baby to come on out. The sacrum needs to be able to move backwards and forwards to allow the baby’s passage through the pelvis. If that sacrum should be as even as possible to make that movement happen as easily as possible, but sometimes it can be in a torqued position and if it’s in a torqued position in there in the pelvis, usually there is some dysfunction or back pain. Another problem is that most OB providers, you go in complaining of back pain and they go, “Well, you’re pregnant. Live with it.” In my world, that pain and that dysfunction could be a problem that you’re going to bring into your birth then. Why not optimize our bodies the best we can for birth prior to going into birth? Meagan: Prior. Key word: prior. Lynn: Prior, everybody. Meagan: Prior. Prior. You know, I think that’s what a lot of us don’t think is that we need to do this prior to going into birth. It’s just that so many people especially I’m going to call us out as C-section mamas. Pelvic floor or anything like that or thinking about it down there doesn’t even cross our minds sometimes because we didn’t have stuff happening down there. Lynn: Right. Typically, right? Meagan: Typically. Lynn: Yes. When we are pregnant, we are all consumed about baby growing and is baby going to be okay? But what I would love to help see shifting is okay, the difference between a smooth birth and a birth that has complications is really what a person brings in their body to that birth. So it’s these falls and impacts on your tailbone or your buttocks or it could be surgery so appendectomies– anytime in your lifetime creates scar tissue. Your appendix is in the right lower quadrant of your belly and if you’ve had your appendix taken out even as a child, there is scar tissue that forms and that scar tissue is in the area of the uterus. It will pull that uterus to the right side. Meagan: Interesting. Lynn: 100% all the time, all my mamas who’ve had appendectomies, I find their uterus is off to the right hand side and cannot move to the left. Meagan: Really? Lynn: They don’t know it. They don’t realize. I had this one mama come to me and I always look at the baby in the belly and look at the belly. You can see. If your baby is only inhabiting one side of the belly, there’s a problem there but most practitioners don’t notice it, don’t ask about it, and don’t know what to do about it. Really, if we could help educate OBs and help them understand the importance of helping to get baby into the best position possible to come on out, that’s going to decrease our C-section rate. Meagan: I was going to say, that is probably going to completely decrease that because we know that failure to progress which can be positional, and failure to descend or fetal position are three really serious things that are happening and causing Cesareans. Lynn: And all three of those are things that can be addressed in the structural tissues, in the soft tissues, in the uterine ligaments, in the pelvic bones, in the pelvic floor muscles, in our hip muscles, in our rib cage. Everything is influencing it. Baby goes where there is space. Meagan: It makes sense. I would too. I did. I did, 35 years ago. Lynn: Yes. Baby goes where there is space so baby tells us where there is tension in your body. Either they are avoiding tension or there is so much tension on one side that they can’t get away from it. That’s what we can assess and we can move that belly so anybody who is pregnant listening into this, you can take your hands on either side of your belly and you should be able to push that baby as far to one side as you are to the other side. It should be even. If you only go halfway one way and double the other way, that’s a restriction in your uterine ligaments and that’s an indicator that you might want to think about going and getting some work done because people who know how to work with the uterine ligaments can help release them and get even mobility. It’s amazing. I have some blog posts that I’ve just recently posted on my website, instituteforbirthhealing.com where I’ve done some talk on pregnancy. There are before and after pictures of treating someone and the baby. In several of the first pictures, the baby looks like it’s almost going side to side and those babies have round, right ligament tension. We all have those ligament pulls and those twinges and that’s your round ligament. That’s your round ligament, but if it’s only on one side, that’s a ligament that has an issue. If there’s a little twinge here and a little twinge there that alternates, but really, we should be able to carry a baby without any pain period. If we are having pains and discomforts, that’s telling us that things are in dysfunction and it would behoove you to try and get support so that you can release those dysfunctions to help you have a smoother birth. It’s interesting. If you guys check out those blog posts, the position of the baby is straight up and down. The belly, the shape of the belly, changes dramatically after you release the ligaments. Meagan: We will make sure to put those blog posts in the show notes so they are very easily found as well. If you are wanting to check out these photos, check out the show notes after this episode. Lynn: Yeah. It’s just so fun as a practitioner to see these drastic changes. Meagan: Oh, I’m sure. Lynn: Right? And to feel those. We talked about the belly and the uterine ligaments. We talked about the pelvis and the pelvic bones, but the pelvic floor muscles are the stoplight for birth. If you have too much tone and tension in your pelvic floor muscles, that baby is not coming through. Meagan: It’s going to be hard, yeah. Lynn: You could have a yellow-light tone which is going to make it a lot harder but what we want is a green-light tone where it’s nice and bouncy and springy and you press down and it gives and it releases and it comes back up but if there are breaks in there, that baby is going to have a hard time because those pelvic floor muscles need to lengthen for baby to come on out. I really encourage everybody. I know this is The VBAC Link and I hope for those listening in who want to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, please go get all of this stuff checked out. Please go work with a practitioner who can help you figure out how to push effectively. Meagan: Yes, yes. Lynn: I can’t tell you the number of people I see in my practice and I go, “Okay, can you push?” I do intravaginal work. I just use fingers in the muscles and work with the tissues vaginally, no speculums, and I’ll just put my fingers on those pelvic floor muscles and I’ll say, “Can you push my fingers out?” I can’t tell you the number of times that people contract and pull up and in. Meagan: Interesting. Lynn: So then if it’s like, “Push my fingers out,” and you’re contracting, now you’re pushing but you’re tightening at the same time and your baby is not going anywhere. Meagan: Mhmm, and we have failure to descend. Lynn: Yes, yes. There are so many things that can cause failure to progress, failure to descend, asynclitic babies, and OP babies. All of that is stuff that can be dealt with prior to the labor. It should be. Meagan: That keyword again: prior. Lynn: Yes. Meagan: I’m loving this because it is something that like I said, I didn’t even know about until three babies were already born and I was one of those people who was told that my pelvis was too small. You mentioned that this tailbone was physically fused so maybe it was broken in the past and fused kind of funky or something like that. I actually had a client who had that situation and her tailbone actually did break during birth but her first was a C-section. She was going for a VBAC and there was all of this restriction in the first one and it did break which is one of the wildest experiences I’ve ever had during birth. She was actually good with it. She was like, “That’s great. My baby came out vaginally,” but then she wanted to learn how to heal it properly and things like that. There are situations where like you said maybe the pelvis isn’t working with us in our favor, but I was told my pelvis was too small and that I would never get a baby out and I had failure to progress and that my body didn’t know how to get to 10 centimeters. So I think really a lot of people are told that so I wanted to know after someone who has been told that their cervix maybe didn’t dilate or wouldn’t dilate, we know that there are lot of factors that could play into this especially too early of an induction or things like that, but what can we do prior to labor if this was a diagnosis of ours and we are wanting a vbac or even not wanting to have more kids and we’re having back pain or we’re having weird things like maybe incontinence or pain during intercourse or things like this. What can PT do for our cervix to maybe help that and what could be wrong? I say wrong loosely, but what could be less ideal with our cervix at that time? Lynn: So the most common answer for everything that you just talked about there is the uterosacral ligament. Meagan: Okay. Lynn: The uterosacral ligament is the ligament that attaches the posterior/inferior aspect of the uterus near the cervix to the sacrum. Well, some to the sacrum, some to the sacrotuberous ligament, some to the spinous processes. So the attachment point to the pelvis varies in different women. Meagan: Wow, okay. Lynn: So depending on any restriction and one of the biggest issues is that the uterosacral ligament helps to drain the cervix. If the uterosacral ligament is restricted, it may cause the cervix to swell. Meagan: Interesting, which we have seen. Lynn: Yep. Yep. So the uterosacral ligament being restricted can cause the cervix to swell and then not be able to open up fully so then you don’t get full dilation and things. Uterosacral ligament will be the first place that I would look. I just had a client a couple of weeks ago who was pregnant with her fourth and all three times, she was getting ready to push, but then she was told, “Oh, you have a cervical lip so don’t push. Don’t push. Don’t push,” and it was a swollen part of her cervix. I went to assess her and her right uterosacral ligament was restricted. Meagan: Interesting. Lynn: She’s like, “This time I’m just going to go for it. I’m not going to let them tell me to not push,” because that’s traumatic in and of itself. Meagan: Yes, especially when your body is just intuitively doing it. Lynn: How do you stop a poo coming out of your anus mid-stream? You can’t. So to tell someone to stop that is just traumatic and not a great thing. But the uterosacral ligament is where I would first look. That is one of the main ligaments that I work with in my clients is just to make sure that there is nice balance and that it can work evenly. Some people are saying scar tissue on the cervix could cause some inability for it to open fully. I like to work with cervixes when clients come to see me and they’ve had the biopsies or they’ve had anything where the cervix tore or something during birth. I just want to give that scar tissue some love and just see if we can’t soften it because scar tissue can be very hard and it’s not as flexible as normal tissue so I want to just see what can I do to help soften it. Most, I don’t tend to do that during pregnancy. I would like to see someone who has any scar tissue prior to even getting pregnant though. Meagan: Prior prior. Prior to even getting pregnant and conceiving. Lynn: Right. We have to plan ahead ahead here guys ideally because I don’t like messing with the cervix once someone is pregnant. Meagan: Understandable. Lynn: I will around 39-40 weeks and especially if someone is overdue, I will go give some love to that cervix and make sure it is feeling okay and soft and mushy all around. We want that. It’s very interesting to feel some cervixes. Some cervixes feel like a duck’s bill. The cervix is really long on half of it and then it’s shorter on the other half like it got dragged out as the baby came out. I mean, I’ve felt all kinds of different cervixes in their afterbirth and if someone does have any type of scar tissue, ideally, let’s work with it in the postpartum period when you are healing so that it can be nice and happy and healthy and then maybe even right before you get pregnant again to get some work done on that beforehand and then I would leave it alone until baby is well-cooked in there. Meagan: Right. And those things can help those lack of dilation, those cervical lips. It’s interesting that you said that because I have a client, she is actually a VBAC client, she shared her story on this podcast and she just had another baby where I was with her and same dang thing is that cervical lip. It happened. It’s so interesting but she labors, she labors, and that cervical lip just does not let go and then she ends up getting an epidural at the very end, and then within 15 minutes, it’s gone which is interesting so what is it? Is it possible that the epidural or maybe she is struggling and she is extra tense? Lynn: Yeah, that could be it. Meagan: Maybe she’s intuitively feeling like she needs to push but can’t because she has this lip. I’m trying to relate to what you said. I’m going to text her after this and be like, “Hey girl, you should go check this out.” Lynn: I’m not quite sure what the epidural is doing for the drainage. Like you said, the epidural bypasses the muscles so it takes the muscles out of the picture so it must be doing something for that uterosacral ligament to help it to relax as well. Meagan: Interesting. Lynn: So that it can now drain for things. That’s really what is helping to drain the cervix is the uterosacral ligament so if there is a dysfunction– well, if the pelvic floor muscles are tight and pulling the bones out of position, that can put strain on the ligaments so it’s possible that indirectly, the epidural is causing that to not be as tense. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, it’s really interesting because she’s like, “I don’t want the epidural,” but right at the 9.5 centimeters, she goes for a while then yeah. I’m just curious. I never even knew about this drainage. There are so many births in my head that I’m connecting this with where I’m like, “Oh, this could have been that.” Okay, so we did talk about cervical scarring, working it out prior to getting pregnant and doing PT during. Do you want to add anything else to the cervix? Lynn: I do because the cervix on an energetic level is the blackbox recorder of the pelvic history. Meagan: Okay. Lynn: Meaning that the cervix energetically is actually holding onto everything that has happened in that vaginal space kind of like the history of it. So tuning into the cervix and helping the cervix to realize that it can let go of whatever is no longer serving you and just asking that cervix to energetically release– Meagan: Let go. Lynn: Let go of what’s no longer serving you can just relax it. When I tune into a cervix, I just love to give it love and gratitude for all that it has done for my clients and just offer it that gratitude. It’s just so amazing. You can feel it just melt in your finger when it’s respected and when it can sense that love and that connection. It just softens. Meagan: Wow. Our bodies are incredible. I mean, I’ve said this before. I’ve said this before, but holy cow. They are incredible. Lynn: They are. They are so fun to work with. They are so fun to work with. I totally agree. Meagan: Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay, so can we talk about someone who has never had a vaginal birth and has maybe had one, two, multiple Cesareans or even just one and how can– okay. We just talked about getting an appendix removed. A Cesarean is a major deal to our body. As you mentioned, we get scar tissue and scar tissue can be tough sometimes. We’ve got a lot of scar tissue usually with a Cesarean but what type of things can someone if they are fresh out of a Cesarean specifically do with pelvic PT? What would that look like? I just had my Cesarean and I’m coming to you. Lynn: Right. If it was just a planned Cesarean where we didn’t go into labor, then we really just want to work on that scar tissue and get greater mobility in that scar tissue. I used to think that maybe we were getting rid of scar tissue until I saw what scar tissue looks like in the body. I observed a surgery and I’m like, “Oh man, we are not getting rid of it.” Meagan: Yeah, because it’s really thick. Lynn: It can be. It can be. What we are doing is increasing its flexibility and how to help it best lay down because scar tissue lays down very haphazardly and all of the fibers lay in all different types of directions trying to create stability and close up the tissues and help the tissues to be strong. It isn’t until it learns how to lay down. So say if you got a scar on your arm and if you bend it and flex your arm back and forth, it teaches the scar tissue how to lay down properly to work that arm. Meagan: Okay. Lynn: In the abdomen, we are more 3D so it’s harder. The tissue doesn’t figure out how to lay down so it’s still in there very criss-crossed everywhere until we get in there and massage it and teach it how to move effectively. That’s where I do have that YouTube video of how to massage your C-section scar. That’s how you found me in the first place. Meagan: Yes, that’s how I found you and we actually have a whole episode. I think it was 123, right? Is that what I said in the beginning? It’s 123 with Lynn and we’re talking about scar massage and scar care. Lynn: Yes. Yeah. That helps it to learn how to lay down properly. I think in that episode we also talked about the three main issues that people can have when people have too much scar tissue or when the scar tissue is inhibiting things and that’s bladder frequency, deep thrusting pain with intercourse, and back pain. Meagan: Yeah, that’s one of the things I was searching for because I had this back pain that just didn’t go away. Lynn: Yeah, because the back is not the problem. The pain is hardly ever where the problem is in the body and you’ve got to understand where that pain might be coming from. It’s usually from a restriction somewhere else in the body that is creating that pain. So releasing that scar tissue and getting it as flexible as possible prior to getting pregnant again would be ideal. Now, not a lot of people know how to do that so then they get pregnant and they’re like, “Oh,” you may have some pulling. You may get some tension in there. I like to work around the C-section scar when someone is pregnant especially newly pregnant. I don’t like messing around with anybody in that first trimester. We don’t know if it’s a viable pregnancy. We don’t want to be moving it around and working it too hard and if they do miscarry, then I might get blamed that you created that. Well, it might have not been a viable pregnancy to begin with, so I just want to be really, really careful in that first trimester. As the uterus grows though, it actually is stretching out that scar tissue. Becoming pregnant is actually a beautiful thing because it does help the tissue learn to lay down. However, what I thought then after someone who has had a C-section, they get pregnant again, no matter how they deliver, I thought the C-section scar especially if they did have a VBAC, that the scar tissue would be nice and loose and it’s not. It definitely tightens up again after the uterus shrinks back down. It’s almost like it gets reactivated. So it needs more scar tissue. It needs more massaging of that scar tissue. We don’t really know how long scar tissue forms in the body so there are other body workers who have had C-sections are like, “Oh no, you need to work on that the rest of your life,” so it could always potentially be causing those three issues– the bladder frequency, deep thrusting pain with intercourse, and back pain. So if you ever get any of that, massage your C-section scar. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that after I found your video, I started doing that and then I’d be like, “Oh, I’m doing really good,” then all of a sudden, I’d be like, “It’s back,” then I’d massage again and be like, “Oh, it’s really good,” then my old partner Julie was like, “I’ve never even heard of this. I’ve never touched my scar like that.” I’m like, “You should try it. It’s amazing.” With C-section moms, do you ever work internally with them as well? Is there possible trauma within the pelvic floor or cervix or anything internally? Lynn: Yes. After any birth, no matter how the baby comes out, I can find the cervix anywhere internally. Ideally, the cervix is right in the midline and I have to just reach up right in the middle of the vagina to find it but after birth, it can be off to the left or to the right. It can be pulled backward. It can be poking up into your bladder which is going to cause a lot of bladder frequency so we need to help bring that back and get that cervix balanced in there again and help it to find its mobility. The analogy is the cervix needs to be like a pinata in vaginally. It needs to be able to move 360 and up and down. The C-section scar tissue is what keeps it from being able to move up. That’s what creates that thrusting pain so releasing the scar tissue and getting down to the level of the uterus and getting the uterus to move side to side and rotating inside, those are all mobilizations I do to check the mobility of the uterus and then treat whatever it can’t do and that really does help. But internally, so once I get the cervix in its proper place, I also want to release and pull that. There’s a pubo-cervical fascia which is the fascia where on the inside of that fascia is the bladder so I just like to call it the bladder. I like to make sure that the bladder and the cervix have as much disconnect as possible because that scar tissue can glue them together. Meagan: That is what we determined when I went in is that I can’t remember if they said my uterus or my bladder. I don’t remember but they said that they were adhering together. Lynn: Yeah. The uterus lays over the bladder and underneath is where they cut so when it lays down on that bladder, it can inhibit the two and like you said, fuse them together. Well internally, I like to get in between those and pull the bladder off of the cervix of the uterus and just make sure there is good mobility between those two. I do it both internally and externally. Meagan: Okay. This is something that like I said even for those moms who are maybe done having babies now and it ended in a Cesarean or vaginal birth, could benefit really from and like you said, we don’t know how long scar tissue can keep going. I don’t know, maybe for the rest of our life so maybe we start years down the road like you said in your video that I found originally. This woman was much older than her 20s having babies. She was much past that and having this pain and it was related to her Cesarean scar. Women of Strength, if you are having symptoms like any of this, don’t shy away from caring for yourself and taking care of yourself. Go find a practitioner, a pelvic floor practitioner who can work with you and help you. You don’t have to suffer. You don’t have to deal. You don’t have to just say, “It’s normal. I had babies,” or whatever. Lynn: It’s not. It’s common, but not normal. Meagan: Common but not normal and I’m wondering if it’s more common because of the lack of support that we are getting after we have babies and even before. It really should be part of our prenatal care. Lynn: Absolutely. Meagan: We go every 4 weeks then we go every 2 weeks then we go every week and somewhere in the middle of that or the whole time, we should be seeking this care as part of our prenatal care I truly believe and even more in our postpartum too because so many people do have a lot of complications and we’re not healing well because we weren’t getting the support and then we are going in and we’re having 41-hour long labors with posterior babies and a cervix that doesn’t want to progress if you have ever heard my story, this is it to a T. Yeah. That can be hard and long and exhausting. Okay, so tell us more about one, where to find you and tell us anything else that you would like to say and how to find your practitioners and all of the things. Lynn: Okay, so one other thing that I just want to throw in here because I just want to help those who have this understand it. There are a lot of people after you have a C-section who cannot touch their scar. Meagan: Oh yes. Lynn: That to me is a sign of trauma that the incident and the event was too overwhelming for your system and it created this avoidance or this trauma freeze response in the body. Please know that that is something that can be worked with. You don’t have to just keep avoiding it. I do. My colleague and I both do Zoom sessions. We can help you with any of the birth trauma that you’ve had so that’s really effective. I just want to put that out there that trauma can be held in your tissue and the scar tissue when there’s trauma in there is way more painful and it’s larger. When you release the emotion that’s being held in that scar, the tissue instantly becomes smaller. Meagan: Yeah. I mean, just like what you were saying earlier with the cervix, the dervix holds this past trauma and everything and boom. Yeah. Lynn: Yeah. You give it permission. Meagan: Absolutely and we’ve talked about this in the past too about that like loving your scar, appreciating your scar– Lynn: It’s a lot easier to do when you’re not traumatized about it. Meagan: Yes. I do think though that in my opinion, from my experience, it was really part of my healing and acceptance of an undesired Cesarean. I did not desire my Cesarean. I did find out that it was likely unnecessary which was really frustrating. I could have looked at that and harbored a lot of negative but it was really interesting because I have grown to just love it and appreciate it. Lynn: Yeah. Meagan: And respect it. You kind of talked about this earlier like giving the cervix love and appreciating the cervix and when it receives love, it can give you love. It melts and it is appreciative. I think that goes a lot with a Cesarean scar. If we can give it love and appreciate it for what it did for us and what that represents, I think that can be really healing. I love that you guys offer that trauma release processing because I think that’s a really great first step to a huge step forward. Lynn: Yes. Yeah. It just makes it easier and in my view, If you’re struggling, if it’s hard, if it’s challenging, there’s a reason why and when you get to the reason why, then things can be effortless and easier for you. So I just want to throw that out there to help people understand that there may be something deeper at play here that when you heal or you look at what is happening at that deeper level, then being able to love your scar or touch your scar is easy. So just know that. Know that that is something that you can get to. Meagan: Absolutely. Lynn: Yeah. So my business name, there are two websites that I run. One is thecenterforbirthhealing.com and that is my clinical practice so if any of you listening in would like some of that healing support with your birth, please reach out. We can do a Zoom session from anywhere that you are at and then the other website is instituteforbirthhealing.com and that is my clinical educational practice or educational platform teaching other body workers how to support pregnant and postpartum clients and on that website, there are additional resources at the top of the menu. Click on that and then at the bottom is a directory. We only have 200 of my students currently in that directory. We are going to be revamping then I’m just going to be putting everybody who has completed a course in there so that people can find practitioners because we are just finding practitioners are already busy and they are not getting their listing down. I just want moms to find support. I know that when people combine forces, they know how to best support you. They are different than a regular physical therapist. They are way different from a pelvic health physical therapist. They have a much broader range of techniques and skills to be able to better support your healing. I highly recommend one of my practitioners and just know that my directory will be changing here in the next couple of months too. Meagan: Yeah, because you’ve got your summit. You have so many things going on. You guys, she’s got a podcast. She’s got a blog. I’m here. I literally just wrote on the director and just typed in “Salt Lake City” because that’s where I’m at and right there we’ve got two really, really close. It’s really awesome to see. This reminds me so much of our Find A Doula. We are the same. Are you still in Colorado? Lynn: Yes. Yep. Still in the Boulder area. Meagan: Okay, yeah. She’s just one person in one state. This just makes me so happy and smile because it is the same concept with our doulas where we can’t change the world alone. We can’t help every single person out there so why not train these people to do what you do which is amazing work and help people all over find the support that they deserve? Lynn: Yes. That’s my goal. I want mamas to heal more completely after birth. I don’t like the care we are receiving in pregnancy and postpartum. When I started this, gosh. I started this in 2016. I had been working with postpartum women even before then so almost 10. Meagan: We’re in 2024. So 18 years? Lynn: Yeah, 18 years. There was hardly anything on the internet about postpartum healing. Meagan: 100%. I know. Lynn: I am just thrilled to see the influx of information and education going out on the social media and helping moms understand that this is a thing and I just really hope that someday every pregnant person is seen by someone who really understands how to assess their body and make sure it’s ready for birth and then really being supported more holistically in that postpartum period as well. Meagan: Absolutely. And this is just my own little side note. I don’t know if any of your practitioners take insurances or things like that, but I want to tell you Women of Strength, if you are listening right now, there are a lot of things in birth that are not covered by insurance. I think it’s B.S. I’m just going to say it. I understand the availability– not the availability. What’s the word? It’s nice to have insurance accept it but I have learned at least here in Utah that insurance doesn’t think that pelvic floor is a big deal. So most of the providers I know in my area are not taking insurance. A lot of the time, we can look at that and be like, “Oh, so expensive” or this or that. Let me tell you, Women of Strength, it is worth it. It is worth it. Put value in you and your body and your birth and your postpartum recovery. The value is there and I’m going to tell you this right now. 10 years down the road, you’re done having your babies. You’re not having pain. You’re not having incontinence. You’ve had better birth experiences and better postpartum experiences. Let me tell you that whatever you paid at those visits, you’re not even going to bat an eye. In fact, you’ll say, “I would have paid $15,000 more.” Not literally. But do you know what I mean? Lynn: 100%, Meagan. Meagan: It’s so worth it and I understand that in the time, it’s really, really hard so if you are having a hard time paying for things or you’re really wanting a pelvic PT throughout pregnancy and you’re really wanting a doula or a photographer or all of the things that come with birth that insurance doesn’t cover, register for those things. Lynn: Yes. Yes. Meagan: Get people to help. When people say, “Hey, can I bring you meals after?” Be like, “You could, or” whatever. Whatever that means, but I promise you that it’s 150% worth it to invest in yourself. Lynn: I just want people to understand that the practitioners who take insurance are working in a practice that can only see you for 30, maybe 40 minutes tops. Meagan: They are limited. They are completely limited. Lynn: Yeah, and a lot of them are younger physical therapists so they are not as experienced and those who are paying and have their own private practices and they choose to do cash pay, they are the experienced ones. They are the ones who are going to get you better faster. If you’re a new mom, I see people 1-3 times and other practitioners are 6-10 times so yes, I might be a little bit more expensive but what’s more expensive, your time and the effort and energy getting to and from me? Or do you want results? Meagan: Yeah. Lynn: There’s value in paying for your own services. You take it way more seriously. You show up more fully for it because you’re investing in yourself. Meagan: Yeah. Lynn: It’s so worth it. It’s so important. Meagan, I’m so glad you said that. Thank you. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. I thought about the word that was coming to my brain. It’s convenient. Going with a provider who takes insurance is more convenient because it’s usually easier sometimes. Lynn: It is financially, but like I said, time and energy and effort. Meagan: That’s what I was going to say, but is it really convenient? I just want to put it out there because I know money is a thing. I know it is tight out there but I fully believe in investing in yourself and your health and your well-being and hopefully one day, the world will change and it will be more accepted on the insurance side. But if it’s not, don’t let it turn you away. Lynn: Amen. Amen, sister. Meagan: All right. Lynn: You preach it. Meagan: I know. I feel a little passionate about this. Lynn: I can tell and I love it. I love it. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Well, thank you again so much for having us and like I said you guys listening, we’re going to have those blogs with the pictures. We’re going to have her podcast, her website, both of the websites so you can find a practitioner near you. If you don’t see a practitioner near you at the very moment you are listening, give it a sec and check back because like she said, it’s going to be updating. Lynn: I also have a Facebook community group that has over 10,000 practitioners and moms in it so you can reach out. The Facebook community group is Institute For Birth Healing Community so if you go on Facebook and check out that group and join it, you could ask in there and see if anyone has trained with me in there. Meagan: Awesome. Lynn: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for this. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Thank you again. I think you are amazing. I’m so grateful I found you in 2017. I think it was 2017 when I found you, maybe 2018. Just keep changing the world, girl. You are killing it. I’m so happy for you and all of your support and all of your practitioners. Lynn: Thank you. Thanks so much, Meagan. Closing Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at theVBAClink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to theVBAClink.com . Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donations Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands