The "closet behaviorist" running for president: An interview with Libertarian candidate Jo Jorgensen

Did you know there is a woman running for president? Her name is Jo Jorgensen, she is the Libertarian candidate, and the only third party candidate who is going to be on the ballot in all 50 states. Dr. Jorgensen has a PhD in organizational and industrial psychology and teaches at Clemson University. She has a Basset Hound named Gertrude, and she has trained her to not beg at the table... but that's not actually why Annie wanted to talk to her. Annie wanted to talk to her because she has been trying to figure out if a world view and values informed by behavior-based dog training have turned her into a Libertarian. After she became a dog trainer, Annie started thinking about something that had never taken up much brain space for her before: Government. We can govern our pets' worlds, and produce good behaviors, using environmental management and conditioning. If we can do all that without punishment or coercion, couldn't it be possible to -- at least to some extent! -- govern people that way as well? Isn't "freedom" just the ability to make choices that will be positively reinforced, rather than doing things because of coercion? When Karen Pryor first started using a conditioned reinforcer to operantly condition dolphins to do tricks, she was using literature that had been given to her from the lab of Harvard Professor BF Skinner. He was experimenting on training animals in labs, but he was also writing about how humans could be conditioned. Last week, Annie looked at examples of people conditioning other people in some recent documentaries and biopics; this week, Annie speaks with the Libertarian presidential candidate about what it could mean to give people choice and to ease up on the use of coercion and punishment. Notes: Ukulele version of America The Beautiful By Roy Sakuma - Jo Jorgenson's Campaign Site - Annie's dad Robert Grossman's illustration of Ronald Reagan as Mickey Mouse - Walden Two by BF Skinner - Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Today’s episode is a little bit different. It’s an interview with a presidential candidate, Jo Jorgensen. She is the libertarian candidate for president this year. She is a professor of psychology at Clemson University. She has been an entrepreneur. She, her specialty is industrial and organizational psychology, and she is the only candidate other than Biden and Trump who is going to be on the ballot in every state. She’s also the best looking candidate that’s going to be on the ballot in every state. I guess that’s debatable, but I could say she looks more like me than anyone else running for president this year. I’m about to share with you a conversation I just had with her. But let me back up a little bit, because I feel like I need to explain that. First of all, I don’t actually think I’m a libertarian. And second of all, I feel like I need to explain why I’m having this conversation with this person on a dog training podcast. I mean, I’m sure she is a much better dog trainer with her dog than Biden is. And of course, Trump doesn’t have a dog, so that makes her the best dog trainer in the race, but that’s sort of over simplifying why I was interested and talking to her. I really have never considered myself a political person. My father was a political cartoonist and growing up politics to me like politics and cartoons went hand in hand. Full Transcript available at SchoolfortheDogs.com/podcast Get full access to Don't Be a Dick to Your Dog at dogtraining.substack.com/subscribe