About this episode
This week marks the second anniversary of the normalization of relations between Israel and Morocco as part of the Abraham Accords. Building on this peace, three young adults hailing from Israel, Morocco, and the U.S. join us to discuss their visit earlier this year to Israel and Morocco. The first-of-its-kind tour was part of the Michael Sachs Emerging Leaders Fellowship, sponsored by AJC and the Mimouna Association, a Muslim nonprofit in Morocco devoted to preserving Jewish-Moroccan heritage. Hillary Jacobs, ACCESS Global and ACCESS NY President, Reda Ayadi, Program Director of Muslim-Jewish dialogue for the Mimouna Association, and Itiel Biran, Head of Operations in the Mayor's office for the municipality of Rahat, Israel, talk about what they learned about Morocco, Israel, and each other, what impact the Abraham Accords have had, and what progress they hope to see continue. __ Episode Lineup: (0:00) Aaron Bregman (2:05) Hillary Jacobs, Itiel Biran, and Reda Ayadi __ Show Notes: If you're alarmed by rising antisemitism, you can take action right now by supporting AJC: visit AJC.org/donate , or text AJC DONATE to 52886. Music credit: Humanity by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License. Listen to our latest podcast episode: What Lessons Can We Learn From the Past to Fight Antisemitism Today? Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. __ Episode Transcript Manya Brachear Pashman: Two years ago, Morocco normalized relations with Israel becoming the sixth Arab country to do so. Earlier this year, a group of 22 young Americans, Israelis and Moroccans toured Morocco together, a first of its kind experience for everyone involved. The tour was part of the Michael Sachs Emerging Leaders Fellowship. The fellowship is sponsored by AJC, and the Mimouna Association, a Muslim nonprofit in Morocco devoted to preserving Jewish Moroccan heritage. The first cohort included members of Morocco's parliament, as well as civic, business, and technology leaders in Israel and the United States. With us to talk about this unprecedented venture are three members of that cohort: Hilary Jacobs, president of AJC's young professionals group ACCESS Global, Reda Ayadi, Program Director of Muslim Jewish Dialogue for the Mimouna Association, and Itiel Biran, Head of Operations in the Mayor's office, for the municipality of Rahat, Israel. Welcome to all of you. Hilary Jacobs: Thank you. Itiel Biran: Thank you, hi. Reda Ayadi: Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman: So Hilary, I will start with you. How did your involvement in the Sachs Fellowship come about? Was it a curiosity about Morocco, curiosity about Israel, or just an opportunity to continue pursuing better Jewish-Muslim relations? Hilary Jacobs: I think all of the above for those. And in addition to that, one, I love traveling, and I love getting to know and experience other cultures, from the people who are from there, and who live there, so less on vacation, and where I can really understand the culture, the geopolitics of the region. And this seemed like a great opportunity. It also felt like a way that, we talk a lot about in the US and in the different activities with AJC about the Abraham accords and about these different relationships, it felt like a real chance for me to do something actionable, and really learn about what that meant. Manya Brachear Pashman: Itiel, had you been to Morocco? Itiel Biran: No, no, this was my first time. Manya Brachear Pashman: Okay, had you even wanted to go? And just could not? Or did this plant the idea in your head? Itiel Biran: To be honest, I don't think it was in my radar,, in my point of view, or thinking. Mostly, I think because even my background in the army and you look outside, you don't really look at it, until the last couple of years don't really look and say like, I'm going to visit whatever, Egypt or Morocco or something like that. We need to be frank and say that a lot of Israelis visited Morocco in the last decade. A lot of them. But for me personally, it wasn't like an opportunity until it became more real in the area, in the region. Manya Brachear Pashman: And Reda, had you been to Israel? because that was part of this as well, right, a trip to Israel? Reda Ayadi: That's correct. The second part, right after Morocco, we flew from Casablanca to Tel Aviv, for the second part of the trip. Before that I had been to Israel, it was almost 10 years to the day, so 2012 was the first time I went, before the Abraham Accords and the situation was a little different than it is today. Manya Brachear Pashman: How so? I mean, was it different for you as a traveler? Personally or geopolitically in the broader scope? Reda Ayadi: It was different, more geopolitically was different. And also as a traveler, I'll explain both sides. 2012 there were no Abraham Accords, there was no open dialogue between the countries in the region. So it was a purely civil society kind of grassroots organization talking to each other. So we didn't have the necessary framework within which we can operate. On a personal level, as a traveler it's also quite different, back then I remember in 2012 I had to fly to Istanbul and meet someone from Israel to give me my Israel visa, but now you can just go to the Israeli office in Rabat and submit your application and get your visa to travel. So, quite a different situation. Manya Brachear Pashman: So, let's summarize for our listeners kind of the Jewish history of Morocco, there has always been a kind of a quiet connection. Excuse me, there's always been kind of a quiet connection between Israel and Morocco, particularly the Moroccan diaspora in the Jewish state and then kind of the new kind of 21st century approach there in Morocco to celebrating interfaith relations, celebrating its Jewish history. Reda Ayadi: Morocco had the largest Jewish community in the Muslim world, and the largest outside of the Ashkenazi world, with almost 300,000 Jews, up until the 60s, quite a large flow migration started one way, and I guess, yes, there was definitely a strong connection that were maintained between Moroccan monarchy and heads of state in Israel. Some of it was indeed behind closed doors. But others were more in the open, like the trip to Shimon Peres to Morocco or Yitzchak Rabin, and others. So, I think, the 21st century as you said, there are two things: Morocco's approach, and its relationship with its Jewish community, like the 2011 constitution that finally recognized it as an essential component of Moroccan identity, its Jewish part, its Jewishness. But at the same time, Abraham Accords now that gave a new kind of strong impetus to go beyond what you said, you know, those kinds of closed door connections, usually between security officials, that now it's, you know, accorded across the whole spectrum of agricultural, technology, lots of people to people relations. So it's, yeah, it's a very significant change that we're seeing now. Hilary Jacobs: Unlike most other countries, Jews were never kicked out of Morocco. In fact, originally, during the Spanish Inquisition, they were asked to come to Morocco. And were wanted to be there. And the people that we met and spoke with felt the loss of the Jewish community there when they migrated to Israel. And so I think that's something that's really special. And I'm the granddaughter of two Holocaust survivors, and then Russian on the other side, so a lot of persecution and to think about Jews being in a country in a region, and especially we don't think about in the Arab world, as one that is welcoming to Jewish people, and beyond welcoming, to really see them as their fellow citizens, Manya Brachear Pashman: Itiel, did you have something to add? Itiel Biran: Yeah, I want to add two things. One, and I think, from Israel's society point of view, there's some interesting collision of the vector of what happened in Israel, to the Moroccan Jews in Israel, in the last seventy years, that I think relates very much to what happened these days between Morocco and Israel. And I think we should speak and when we look at the history of Israel, the Moroccan Jews a lot of the Mizrahim, a lot of the people from Africa, and not the Ashkenazi people were pretty much pushed aside from the decision-making places. And there's some big changes in Israel in the decades that follow, that I think influenced a lot of how not only Moroccan but also the whole society in Israel, look at the heritage, the big and amazing heritage that Moroccan Jews bring to Israel. And I think these days, what we've seen is a combination between what Israels look up and look on the history of themselves. You know, the Moroccan Jews in Israel are a half a million people. There's a lot of people, the heritage is enormous, amazing, a lot of culture. And for decades Israeli society looks at them and the very good foods or something like that. And I think this change impacts a lot. And it's very helpful. This is the first thing I want to say, of course, to relate to what Reda said, the Abraham Accords is the peak of process. I think in Morocco, not in other countries. In other countries, I think it's the start of a process. In Morocco and in the relationship between Morocco and Israel is, it's some kind of a peak, because there was an ongoing relationship for a lot of the time. But there was never, from up-down, always from down to up, only from top to bottom. This is a point of view that will really help you understand why this peak of relationship between Morocco and Israel is so strong, and why the changing of how many Israelis come to Morocco, it changed in two, three years from 50,000 to 200,000 a year. I think because it's a peak, not a start. Manya Brachear Pashman: That's a really interesting point. In other words, you're saying that the renewed interest in the Jewish history of Morocco plus the renewed look at how Moroccan Jews are treated in Israel, both of those paved the way toward this normalization. Itiel Biran: Yes, with all of the other things, the business opportunities, etc. Manya Brachear Pashman: Right. That is, that's really a very good point, Itiel, I appreciate you making that. I'm curious, both of you, Itiel, Hillary, what did you learn about the Jewish community in Morocco, and the efforts on behalf of both Jewish and Muslim communities there to better understand each other. Itiel Biran: First of all, for sure what I mentioned before, for me is the continuous process of my friend for me, there is not a good translation for this, but I'm very a fan of the Arabs in Morocco, and the identity, and I'm looking at myself as Israeli, as a combination of a lot of identities. And a lot of them are more like an African identity. And I think there's a continuous process in a lot of Israelis to embrace this identity, even more. And I think when I went to Morocco, it was a big, strong feeling of this heritage and how it's related to me. And to be honest, the absence of similar heritage from my own places I'm from. I'm Ashkenazi, from Poland and from Germany, etc. And there's nothing there. There's nothing there left, there's nothing there to see what my ancestors were talking about, and what this big proud communities were. When you go to Morocco, you see all the stories in real life. It's blown my mind. It's amazing. Manya Brachear Pashman: And Hillary, what did you learn about the Jewish community in Morocco, when you went? Hilary Jacobs: You know, it's very humbling. I also grew up in a very Ashkenazi centric world, or around Sephardic Jews, mostly from Iran, and there was maybe like one or two, you know, Moroccan Jews, and I never really got to learn about any of their traditions at all, and so on this trip, getting to see those and also seeing how our Moroccan counterparts were as excited about participating in those cultural traditions. I mean, the Mimuna Association is called the Mimouna Association for a reason, after one of those specifically Moroccan holidays after Pesach. So, that was kind of amazing. I think the fact that an organization that started out simply as an on campus group that has blossomed into an NGO, would go around and preserve Jewish sites and culture. Manya Brachear Pashman: What is the Mimouna Association? Reda Ayadi: The Mimouna Association is now a Moroccan NGO. It started in 2007 at my university, as Student Club, right. Just a group of students decided that they want to learn more about Moroccan Jewish heritage. So 10 of them got together and created the club and started pretty small. Just once a month or once every other month, they will do an event, like Moroccan Jewish days, or something of the sort where they would turn the whole campus Jewish for a day, you know, like Moroccan Jewish food within the the cafeteria, the library would show books from Moroccan Jewish writers or scholars, and things of the sort. And I guess it evolved quite a bit from 2007 until 2012, when a lot of us graduated, and we registered what was then a student club into a Moroccan NGO that exists outside of the university, present in a few cities. And also we started different tiers, student branches in other universities besides the one where it started. The big chunk of the work that's done is education, really working in universities and high schools with students to learn more about their own history that most people are not very much aware of. That's one. Two, we work on Holocaust education as well. The Holocaust is not necessarily a chapter that Moroccans are very familiar with. But with partners in the US and others we developed a Holocaust curriculum specifically for an Arab audience. So we focus on that. And also we work on Muslim-Jewish relations with both the Jewish community in Morocco and outside, in the US, Israel and other countries. So that's just a few of the things that we focus on. Now it's been more than 15 years doing the work. And we continue, there is plenty that needs to be done. Manya Brachear Pashman: Since Israel and Morocco did establish diplomatic relations, I think more than 30 agreements have been brokered having to do with a variety of things: water management, renewable energy, security. I'm curious if there were any particular collaborations that you explored during this fellowship that intrigued you or or kind of struck you as particularly beneficial for the region? And Reda, I'll start with you. Reda Ayadi: I think a critical issue is really the water management in both. Morocco right now is suffering from a very heavy drought that's been ongoing for a long time. And both the well-being of everyone in the country depends on water resources. So like cooperating in that space, I think it is excellent. And I think could be a good platform for both Morocco and Israel to pursue similar agendas in other countries, because water scarcity is not just an issue for Morocco, it's an issue for the whole region. So I think it could be a way to work with countries that are also in such a need. Manya Brachear Pashman: Hilary, I'll pose the same question to you. Hilary Jacobs: From what I experienced, there's so many different opportunities. Tourism is something that we talked a lot about as it being something very immediate that we could do as individuals, encouraging people to go there, we met with the tourism office. And so how we can encourage Israelis and Americans to go there. Also, one of the things that I learned that was really helpful in terms of thinking about the region as a whole, and as Morocco as a gateway to Africa, and that being so essential and important for the future of Israel, and there's a lot of contention often in African countries, and its relationship to Israel. Like, considering the vote of the African Union to potentially kick out the delegates from Israel. And so to really be championing these new sorts of relationships in Morocco, I think is an excellent starting point to open up a whole new region of possibilities. And so, there's just kind of endless opportunities that can come through, starting with Morocco and moving out all over Africa. Manya Brachear Pashman: And Itiel, are there particular collaborations that you find very beneficial? Itiel Biran: For me myself, to be honest, what's very unique, look at governmental, municipality and governance. And I think I told this to my friends from Morocco. I was very surprised and very interested about the way of managing and the way of handling pretty much the same issues in a different country with different rules and different government, and I think there's a lot of potential there. Manya Brachear Pashman: So these past couple of weeks, we've been watching the first World Cup hosted in the Arab world in Qatar, yet it was quite an ordeal to arrange for Israelis and Palestinians to fly directly from Israel. And since some of the Israeli journalists have arrived there, they've been harassed simply because of where they're from. And I'm curious if your participation in this program, your engagement in these these kinds of relationships, if it changed how you view tensions like this? Itiel Biran: Every experience that we experience as an Israeli comes across Arab people all around the world or in Israel, or in Morocco, or you come across Israelis, or what you're facing back home. And when you speak on your relationship or what your projects are. I think most of this experience speaks pretty much the same language. And the same language is: peace is coming from people, from face to face, from long relationships, from knowledge, from understanding, from business and actions, and not from papers and not from anything else. And you can say from the point of view of Israel: yeah, we have a peace agreement with some countries – is there any peace with them? Yeah, peace agreement, there is. But has there been peace with them? And for my personal view, I came to Morocco with my arms up, ready to argue, ready to defend my point of view as an Israeli. Ready to, whatever. And I was blown away by the fact that I didn't have to do it. That some some root or some foundation of coexistence, even though there's a lot of misunderstanding. There's a lot of mania. There's a lot of things that people on both sides think and hear and don't understand. When you have some foundation of warmth, there's something to build on. And when you don't have it--whatever agreement you're going to do, and whatever speaking you're going to do is going to stay in the area of speaking, of talking. Enough. And I think this statement that I just said, it's going through our delegation, and our friendship, and continuing after this program to, to do things together and speak together and discuss. Because I think all of us, when we met in this delegation, it wasn't something for one time and meeting. All of us felt, I think, and agreed without talking about it, that when you do this day to day speaking and working and action, you make with your own hands, the warm peace, that you can actually build on. Manya Brachear Pashman: Have you encountered pushback from others for participating in this program? And if so, how do you respond to that kind of pushback? Reda Ayadi: Trust is very hard, if we have learned for generations to mistrust, to distrust each other. It's hard to just like one day wake up and be, 'Oh, you know, it's all good, it's easy to go back and forth without any issue.' If we would just give up after any pushback after any, being stopped at the checkpoint or at an airport for two hours, nobody would be doing anything, you know. Since my first trip and my second trip and my third trip to Israel, every time I would spend at least two hours in a room waiting for someone to come question me. But I understand that it takes this many times and this many years for the other to become less other, to become something someone that's familiar. And I hope that both Israelis and Palestinians go into the World Cup and everyone else traveling back and forth between these countries, to not give up after the first difficult experience trying to travel and build bridges between these peoples. And to continue doing. Manya Brachear Pashman: Excellent. Well, thanks to all of you for making the trip, for participating in this fellowship, and for coming and sharing your experience with our listeners. Itiel Biran: Thank you for the opportunity.