Architects of Peace: Episode 5 - Accords of Tomorrow

On the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, AJC hosted a conversation with Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro. They discussed the challenges threatening regional stability, from unilateral moves on Palestinian statehood to political pressures within Israel, and underscored what's at stake—and what it will take—to expand the Abraham Accords and advance peace. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Episode lineup: Dan Shapiro (1:00) Jason Greenblatt (18:05) Full transcript : https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/accords-of-tomorrow-architects-of-peace-episode-5 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. AJC.org/AbrahamAccords - The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: AJC.org/ForgottenExodus AJC.org/PeopleofthePod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: podcasts@ajc.org If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords – normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and turning the spotlight on some of the results. Introducing the Architects of Peace. On the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in September, American Jewish Committee hosted conversations with former Middle East envoy Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro:. Both diplomats discussed the dangers threatening peace in the region, including some countries' unilateral calls for Palestinian statehood. They shared what's at stake and what it will take to expand the Abraham Accords and make progress toward peace in the region. We're including those conversations as part of our series. AJC's Chief Strategy and Communications Officer Belle Yoeli starts us off with Ambassador Shapiro. Belle Yoeli: Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. We're going to speak primarily about unilateral recognition of Palestinian statehood, but I, of course, want to ask you a couple of questions, because you have so much to share with us before we dive in. First and foremost, as we've said, It's been almost two years, and at AJC, we're all about optimism and playing the long game, as you know, but it does feel like the challenges for the Jewish community and the state of Israel continue to build. And of course, the war looms very large. What is your analysis of the geopolitical horizon for the war in Gaza. Dan Shapiro: First, thanks for having me. Thank you to American Jewish Committee and to Ted and everybody for all you do. Thank you, Ruby [Chen], and the families, for the fellowship that we can share with you in this goal. I'll just say it very simply, this war needs to end. The hostages need to come home. Hamas needs to be removed from power. And aid needs to surge into Gaza and move forward with a reconstruction of Gaza for Palestinians who prepare to live in peace with Israel. This is something that is overdue and needs to happen. I think there have been a number of missed opportunities along the way. I don't say this in a partisan way. I think President Trump has missed opportunities at the end of the first ceasefire, when the first ceasefire was allowed to expire after the Iran strike, something I strongly supported and felt was exactly the right thing to do. There was an opening to create a narrative to end the war. I think there have been other missed opportunities. And I don't say in a partisan way, because the administration I served in, the Biden administration, we made mistakes and we missed opportunities. So it can be shared. that responsibility. But what I do think is that there is a new opportunity right now, and we saw it in President Trump's meeting with Arab leaders. It's going to take very significant, deft, and sustained diplomatic effort. He's got a good team, and they need to do the follow through now to hold the Arabs to their commitments on ensuring Hamas is removed from power, on ensuring that there's a security arrangement in Gaza that does not leave Israel vulnerable to any possibility of a renewal of hostilities against it. And of course, to get the hostages released. That's pressure on the Arabs. And of course, he's got a meeting coming up with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and I do think he's going to need to lean on Prime Minister Netanyahu to overcome the resistance that he has to deal with in his cabinet, from those who want to continue the war or who those who rule out any role of any kind for the Palestinian Authority in something that will follow in the day after in Gaza. So there is a real opportunity here. Once the war is over, then we have an opportunity to get back on the road that we were on. Two years ago at this UN General Assembly, I was serving as the Biden administration's Senior Advisor on regional integration, the first State Department position to hold that, trying to follow through on the excellent work that Jason Greenblatt and Jared Kushner and, of course, President Trump did in the first term in achieving the Abraham Accords. And we were building out the Negev Forum. And in fact, at that UNGA meeting, we had planned the next ministerial meeting of the Negev Forum. It was to take place October 19 in Marrakesh. Obviously, no one ever heard about that summit. It didn't happen. But getting back on the road to strengthening and expanding the Abraham Accords, to getting Saudi Arabia to the table as a country that will normalize relations with Israel, to expanding regional forums like the Negev Forum. Those are all still within reach, but none of them are possible until the war ends, till the hostages are home, till Hamas is removed from power. Belle Yoeli: Absolutely. And we look forward to talking more about the day after, in our next segment, in a segment coming up. Ambassador, you just got back from Israel. Can you tell us about your experience, the mood, what's the climate like in Israel? And any insights from your meetings and time that you think should be top of mind for us? Dan Shapiro: I think what was top of mind for almost every Israeli I spoke to was the hostages. I spent time in the hostage square in Tel Aviv, spent time with Ruby, spent time with other hostage families, and everywhere you go as everybody who spin their nose, you see the signs, you hear the anxiety. And it's getting deeper because of the time that people are worried is slipping away for, especially for those who are still alive, but for all of those hostages to be returned to their families, so deep, deep anxiety about it, and candidly, some anger, I think we just heard a little bit of it toward a government that they're not sure shares that as the highest priority. There's a lot of exhaustion. People are tired of multiple rounds of reserve duty, hundreds of days. Families stressed by that as well the concern that this could drag on with the new operation well into next year. It's allowed to continue. It's a lot of worry about Israel's increased isolation, and of course, that's part of the subject. We'll discuss how countries who have been friends of Israel, whether in the region or in Europe or elsewhere, are responding in more and more negative ways, and Israel, and all Israelis, even in their personal lives, are feeling that pinch. But there's also some, I guess, expectant hope that President Trump, who is popular in Israel, of course, will use his influence and his regional standing, which is quite significant, to put these pieces together. Maybe we're seeing that happening this week. And of course, there's some expectant hope, or at least expectant mood, about an election next year, which will bring about some kind of political change in Israel. No one knows exactly what that will look like, but people are getting ready for that. So Israelis are relentlessly forward, looking even in the depths of some degree of anxiety and despair, and so I was able to feel those glimmers as well. Belle Yoeli: And relentlessly resilient, absolutely resilient. And we know that inspires us. Moving back to the piece on diplomatic isolation and the main piece of our conversation, obviously, at AJC, we've been intensely focused on many of the aspects that are concerning us, in terms of unfair treatment of countries towards Israel, but unilateral recognition of Palestinian state is probably the most concerning issue that we've been dealing with this week, and obviously has gotten a lot of attention in the media. So from your perspective, what is this really all about? Obviously, this, this has been on the table for a while. It's not the first time that countries have threatened to do this, but I think it is the first time we're time we're seeing France and other major countries now pushing this forward in this moment. Is this all about political pressure on Israel? Dan Shapiro: Well, first, I'll say that I think it's a mistake. I think it's an ill advised set of initiatives by France, by Canada, Australia, UK and others. It will change almost it will change nothing on the ground. And so to that sense, it's a purely rhetorical step that changes nothing, and probably does little, if anything, to advance toward the stated goal of some sort of resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And in many ways, it may actually set it back in part because of the way it appears to and certainly many Israelis understand it too. And I'm sorry to say, many Arabs understand it to reward Hamas. Hamas is celebrating it as an achievement of October 7, and that October 7 will find its place in the pantheon of the Palestinian Liberation story that should never be allowed to happen. So doing it this way, doing it without conditioning it on the release of hostages, on the disarming and removal of Hamas from Gaza, is a mistake. And of course, it tells Israelis that their very legitimate concerns about obviously the hostages, but also that some future Palestinian state, wherever and whatever form it might take, could become a threat to them from other parts, from parts of the West Bank, as it was from Gaza on October 7. And you cannot get to that goal unless you're willing to engage the Israeli public on those concerns, very legitimate concerns, and address them in a very forthright way. So I think it's a mistake. I'm sure, to some degree, others have made this observation. It is motivated by some of the domestic political pressures that these leaders feel from their different constituencies, maybe their left, left wing constituencies, some right wing constituencies, and some immigrant constituencies. And so maybe they're responding to that. And I think that's, you know, leaders deal with those types of things. I think sometimes they make bad decisions in dealing with those types of pressures. I think that's the case here, but I it's also the case. I think it's just fair to say that in the absence of any Israeli Government articulated viable day after, plan for Gaza, something we were urged Israel to work with us on all the time. I was serving in the Biden administration, and I think the Trump administration has as well, but it's remained blurry. What does what is that vision of the day after? Not only when does it start, but what does it look like afterwards? And is it something that Arab States and European states can buy into and get behind and and put their influence to work to get Hamas out and to do a rebuild that meets the needs of both Israelis and Palestinians. There hasn't been that. And so that could have been a way of satisfying some of those domestic pressures, but it wasn't really available. And so I think some of the leaders turn to this ill advised move instead. Belle Yoeli: So perhaps catering to domestic political concerns and wanting to take some sort of moral high ground on keeping peace alive, but beyond that, no real, practical or helpful outcomes, aside from setting back the cause of peace? Dan Shapiro: I think it has limited practical effects. Fact, I think it does tell Israelis that much of the world has not internalized their legitimate concerns, and that they will be, you know, cautious at best for this. Everybody knows that there are many Israelis who have been long standing supporters of some kind of two state resolution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And post October 7, they've, they don't still hold that position, or at least they say, if it can happen, it's going to take a long time, it's going to look very different. And I think that actually is some a real practical takeaway, that if we are going to talk about some future establishment of a Palestinian state and some two state arrangement, certainly separation between Israelis and Palestinians, so they don't try to live intermixed in a way that they govern each other. I think that is that is desirable, but it's not necessarily going to look like two state outcomes that were envisioned in the Oslo period, in the 90s and the 2000s it's going to look different. It's going to take longer. And so that is something that I think we have to make sure is understood as people raise this initiative, that their goal is not the goal of 1993 it's going to have to look different, and it's going to have to take longer. Belle Yoeli: So as more and more countries have sort of joined this, this move that we find to be unhelpful, obviously, a concern that we all have who are engaged in this work is that we've heard response, perhaps, from the Israelis, that there could be potential annexation of the West Bank, and that leads to this sort of very, very, even more concerning scenario that all of the work that you were discussing before, around the Abraham Accords, could freeze, or, perhaps even worse, collapse. What's your analysis on that scenario? How concerned should we be based on everything that you know now and if not that scenario? What else should we be thinking about? Dan Shapiro: We should be concerned. I was actually in Israel, when the UAE issued their announcement about four weeks ago that annexation in the West Wing could be a red line, and I talked to a very senior UAE official and tried to understand what that means, and they aren't, weren't prepared to or say precisely what it means. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to break off relations or end the Abraham Accords, but that they would have to respond, and there's a limited range of options for how one could respond, with moving ambassadors or limiting flights or reducing certain kinds of trade or other visits. Nothing good, nothing that would help propel forward the Abraham accords and that particular critical bilateral relationship in a way that we wanted to so I think there's risk. I think if the UAE would take that step, others would probably take similar steps. Egypt and Jordan have suggested there would be steps. So I think there's real risk there, and I think it's something that we should be concerned about, and we should counsel our Israeli friends not to go that route. There are other ways that they may respond. In fact, I think we've already seen the Trump administration, maybe as a proxy, make some kind of moves that try to balance the scales of these unilateral recognitions. But that particular one, with all of the weight that it carries about what how it limits options for future endpoints, I think would be very, very damaging. And I don't think I'm the only one. Just in the last hour and a half or so, President Trump, sitting in the Oval Office, said very publicly that he, I think you said, would not allow Netanyahu to do the Analyze annexation of the West Bank. I think previously, it was said by various people in the administration that it's really an Israeli decision, and that the United States is not going to tell them what to do. And that's perfectly fine as a public position, and maybe privately, you can say very clearly what you think is the right course, he's now said it very publicly. We'll see if he holds to that position. But he said it, and I think given the conversations he was having with Arab leaders earlier this week, given the meeting, he will have his fourth meeting. So it's obviously a very rich relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu on Monday, I think it's clear what he believes is necessary to get to the end of this war and not leave us in a worse position for trying to get back on the road to his goals. His goals of expanding the Abraham accords his great achievement from the first term, getting Saudi Arabia to normalize relations, of course, getting hostages released and getting Arabs involved in the reconstruction of Gaza in a way that Gaza can never become the threat it was again on October 7, those are his goals. They'll be well served by the end of the war that I described earlier, and by avoiding this cycle that you're referencing. Belle Yoeli: Putting aside the issue of unilateral recognition, I think we've seen in our work with our Israeli counterparts, sort of differences in the political establish. Around how important it is in thinking about the day after and seeing movement on the Palestinian issue. And we've seen from some that they perhaps make it out that it's not as important that the Palestinian having movement towards a political path. It's not necessarily a have to be front and center, while others seem to prioritize it. And I think in our work with Arab countries, it's very clear that there does have to be some tangible movement towards the political aspirations for the Palestinian for there to really be any future progress beyond the Abraham accords. What's your take? Dan Shapiro: My take is that the Arab states have often had a kind of schizophrenic view about the Palestinian issue. It's not always been, maybe rarely been their highest priority. They've certainly had a lot of disagreements with and maybe negative assessments of Palestinian leaders, of course, Hamas, but even Palestinian Authority leaders. And so, you know, it's possible to ask the question, or it has been over time, you know, how high do they prioritize? It? Certainly those countries that stepped forward to join the Abraham accords said they were not going to let that issue prevent them from advancing their own interests by establishing these productive bilateral relations with Israel, having said that there's no question that Arab publics have been deeply, deeply affected by the war in Gaza, by the coverage they see they unfortunately, know very little about what happened on October 7, and they know a lot about Israeli strikes in Gaza, civilian casualties, humanitarian aid challenges, and so that affects public moods. Even in non democratic countries, leaders are attentive to the views of their publics, and so I think this is important to them. And every conversation that I took part in, and I know my colleagues in the Biden administration with Arab states about those day after arrangements that we wanted them to participate in, Arab security forces, trainers of Palestinian civil servants, reconstruction funding and so forth. They made very clear there were two things they were looking for. They were looking for a role for the Palestinian Authority, certainly with room to negotiate exactly what that role would be, but some foothold for the Palestinian Authority and improving and reforming Palestinian Authority, but to have them be connected to that day after arrangement in Gaza and a declared goal of some kind of Palestinian state in the future. I think there was a lot of room in my experience, and I think it's probably still the case for flexibility on the timing, on the dimensions, on some of the characteristics of that outcome. And I think a lot of realism among some of these Arab leaders that we're not talking about tomorrow, and we're not talking about something that might have been imagined 20 or 30 years ago, but they still hold very clearly to those two positions as essentially conditions for their involvement in getting to getting this in. So I think we have to take it seriously. It sounds like President Trump heard that in his meeting with the Arab leaders on Tuesday. It sounds like he's taking it very seriously. Belle Yoeli: I could ask many more questions, but I would get in trouble, and you've given us a lot to think about in a very short amount of time. Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. Dan Shapiro: Thank you. Thank you everybody. Manya Brachear Pashman: As you heard, Ambassador Shapiro served under President Obama. Now AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson speaks with Jason Greenblatt, who served under President Trump. But don't expect a counterpoint. Despite their political differences, these two men see eye to eye on quite a bit. Jason Isaacson: Jason first, thank you for the Abraham Accords. The work that you did changed the history of the Middle East. We are so full of admiration for the work of you and your team. Jared Kushner. Of course, President Trump, in changing the realities for Israel's relationship across the region and opening the door to the full integration of Israel across the region. It's an unfinished work, but the work that you pioneered with the President, with Jared, with the whole team, has changed the perspective that Israel can now enjoy as it looks beyond the immediate borders, Jordan and Egypt, which has had relations with a quarter a century or more, to full integration in the region. And it's thanks to you that we actually are at this point today, even with all the challenges. So first, let me just begin this conversation by just thanking you for what you've done. Jason Greenblatt: Thank you. Thank you, and Shana Tova to everybody, thank you for all that you do. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. So you were intimately involved in negotiations to reach normalization agreements between Israel and the Kingdom of Morocco, the Kingdom of Bahrain, of course, the United Arab Emirates. Can you take us behind the scenes of these negotiations? At what point during the first term of President Trump did this become a priority for the administration, and when did it seem that it might actually be a real possibility? Jason Greenblatt: So I have the benefit, of course, of looking backward, right? We didn't start out to create the Abraham Accords. We started out to create peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which, as Dan knows, and so many people here know, including you Jason, seems to be an impossible task. But I would say that if I follow the breadcrumbs, my first meeting with Yousef Al Otaiba was a lunch, where it was the first time I actually ever met an Emirati, the first time I understood the psychology of the Emiratis. And others. I realized that the world had changed tremendously. Everything that you heard about anti-Israel wasn't part of the conversation. I'll go so far as to say, when I went to the Arab League Summit that took place in Jordan in March of 2017 where I met every foreign minister. And I'm not going to tell you that I loved many of those meetings, or 85% of the conversation, where it wasn't exactly excited about Israel and what Israel stood for. There were so many things in those conversations that were said that gave me hope. So it was multiple years of being in the White House and constantly trying to work toward that. But I want to go backwards for a second, and you touched on this in your speech, there are many parents and grandparents of the Abraham Accords, and AJC is one of those parents or grandparents. There are many people who work behind the scenes, Israeli diplomats and so many others. And I'm sure the Kingdom of Morocco, where the architecture was built for something like the Abraham Accords, everybody wanted regional peace and talked about Middle East peace. But we were fortunate, unfortunately for the Palestinians who left the table, which was a big mistake, I think, on their part, we're very fortunate to take all of that energy and all of that hard work and through a unique president, President Trump, actually create that architecture. On a sad note, I wouldn't say that when I left the White House, I thought I'd be sitting here thinking, you know, five years out, I thought there'd be lots of countries that would already have signed and all the trips that I take to the Middle East, I thought would be much. Now they're easy for me, but we're in a very, very different place right now. I don't think I ever would have envisioned that. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. The administration has talked a great deal about expanding the Abraham Accords, of course, and as have we. Indeed, at an AJC program that we had in Washington in February with Special Envoy Steven Witkoff, he talked publicly for the first time about Lebanon and Syria joining the Accords. Obviously, with both of those countries, their new political situation presents new possibilities. However, the ongoing war in Gaza, as we've been discussing with Ambassador Shapiro, and Israel's actions, including most recently striking Hamas in Doha, have further isolated Israel in the region and made an expansion of the accords harder to envision. At least, that's the way it seems. Given the current situation in the Middle East. Do you think the Trump administration can be successful in trying to broker new agreements, or do the current politics render that impossible in the short term? How hopeful are you? Jason Greenblatt: So I remain hopeful. First of all, I think that President Trump is a unique president because he's extremely close to the Israeli side, and he's very close to the Arab side. And he happens to have grandchildren who are both, right. I think, despite this terrible time that we're facing, despite hostage families, I mean, the terrible things that they have to live through and their loved ones are living it through right now, I still have hope. There's no conversation that I have in the Arab world that still doesn't want to see how those Abraham Accords can be expanded. Dan, you mentioned the Arab media. It's true, the Arab world has completely lost it when it comes to Israel, they don't see what I see, what I'm sure all of you see. I'm no fan of Al Jazeera, but I will say that there are newspapers that I write for, like Arab News. And when I leave the breakfast room in a hotel in Riyadh and I look at the headlines of, not Al Jazeera, but even Arab News, I would say, Wow, what these people are listening to and reading, what they must think of us. And we're seeing it now play out on the world stage. But despite all that, and I take my kids to the Middle East all the time, we have dear friends in all of those countries, including very high level people. I've gotten some great Shana Tovas from very high level people. They want the future that was created by the Abraham Accords. How we get there at this particular moment is a big question mark. Jason Isaacson: So we touched on this a little bit in the earlier conversation with Dan Shapiro:. Your team during the first Trump administration was able to defer an Israeli proposal to annex a portion of the West Bank, thanks to obviously, the oped written by Ambassador Al Otaiba, and the very clear position that that government took, that Israel basically had a choice, normalization with the UAE or annexation. Once again, there is discussion now in Israel about annexation. Now the President, as Ambassador Shapiro just said, made a very dramatic statement just a couple of hours ago. How do you see this playing out? Do you think that annexation is really off the table now? And if it were not off the table, would it prevent the continuation of the agreements that were reached in 2020 and the expansion of those agreements to a wider integration of Israel in the region? Jason Greenblatt: To answer that, I think for those of you who are in the room, who don't know me well, you should understand my answer is coming from somebody who is on the right of politics, both in Israel and here. In fact, some of my Palestinian friends would say that sometimes I was Bibi's mouthpiece. But I agree with President Trump and what he said earlier today that Dan had pointed out, I don't think this is the time. I don't think it's the place. And I was part of the team that wrote the paperwork that would have allowed Israel to . . . you use the word annexation. I'll say, apply Israeli sovereignty. You'll use the word West Bank, I'll use Judea, Samaria. Whatever the label is, it really doesn't matter. I don't think this is the time to do it. I think Israel has so many challenges right now, militarily, hostages, there's a million things going on, and the world has turned against Israel. I don't agree with those that are pushing Bibi. I don't know if it's Bibi himself, but I hope that Bibi could figure out a way to get out of that political space that he's in. And I think President Trump is making the right call. Jason Isaacson: So, I was speaking with Emirati diplomats a couple of days ago, who were giving me the sense that Israel hasn't gotten the message that the Palestinian issue is really important to Arab leaders. And we talked about this with Ambassador Shapiro earlier, that it's not just a rhetorical position adopted by Arab leaders. It actually is the genuine view of these Arab governments. Is that your sense as well that there needs to be something on the Palestinian front in order to advance the Abraham Accords, beyond the countries that we've established five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: You know, when I listened to Dan speak, and I told him this after his remarks, I'm always reminded that even though we disagree around the edges on certain things, if you did a Venn diagram, there would be a lot of overlap. I agree with how he sees the world. But I want to take it even back to when I was in the White House. There are many times people said, Oh, the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care. We could just do whatever we want. It's not true. They may care more about their own countries, right? They all have their visions, and it's important to them to advance their own visions. The Palestinian cause may not have been as important, but there is no way that they were going to abandon the Palestinians back then, and I don't think the UAE or the Kingdom of Morocco or others having entered into the Abraham Accords, abandoned the Palestinians. I think that was the wrong way to look at it, but they are certainly not going to abandon the Palestinians now. And I think that how Dan described it, which is there has to be some sort of game plan going forward. Whether you want to call it a state, which, I don't like that word, but we can't continue to live like this. I'm a grandfather now of three. I don't want my grandchildren fighting this fight. I really don't. Is there a solution? Okay, there's a lot of space between what I said and reality, and I recognize that, but it's incumbent on all of us to keep trying to figure out, is there that solution? And it's going to include the Palestinians. I just want to close my answer with one thing that might seem odd to everybody. I'm not prone to quoting Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with, the late Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with just about on everything, but he used to tell me, Jason, the answer isn't in the Koran, it's not in the Torah, it's not in the Christian Bible, and the Israelis and the Palestinians are not leaving the space. So let's figure out a solution that we could all live with. So that's how I see it. Jason Isaacson: Thank you for that. One last question. I also heard in another conversation with other em righty diplomats the other day that the conflict isn't between Arabs and Israelis or Arabs and Jews, it's between moderates and extremists, and that the UAE is on the side of the moderates, and Morocco is on the side of the moderates, and the Kingdom of Bahrain is on the side of the moderates, and Israel is on the side of the moderates. And that's what we have to keep in our minds. But let me also ask you something that we've been saying for 30 years across the region, which is, if you believe in the Palestinian cause, believe in rights for the Palestinians, you will advance that cause by engaging Israel, not by isolating Israel. Is that also part of the argument that your administration used five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: 100%. I think, I mean, I kept pushing for it and eventually they did it, for the Israelis and the Arabs to engage directly. Yes, the US plays a role, and they could play a moderating role. They could play somewhat of a coercive role. Nobody's going to force the Israelis, or frankly, even the Palestinians, to do anything they don't want to do, but getting them in the room so there are no missed signals, no missed expectations, I think, is the key part of this solution. I'm still hopeful, just to go back to your prior question, that they could get the right people in the room and somebody like President Trump, together with Emirati diplomats, Moroccan diplomats and others. They could talk rationally, and sanely, and appropriately, and we'll get somewhere good. Jason Isaacson: Ok, look ahead. We just marked the fifth anniversary of the Abraham Accords. Will there be a 10th Anniversary of the Abraham Accords, and will it look the same that it is now? Jason Greenblatt: No, I think it's going to be better. Yes, I think there's going to be a 10th Anniversary. I think there will be challenges. But maybe the best way I could answer this is, when the, I'll call it, the beeper incident in Lebanon happened. Okay, quite, quite a feat. I was in a conference room at a client of mine in the Middle East. Most of the room was filled with Lebanese Arabs, Christians and Muslims and some Druze. And it was unusual for everybody's phone to buzz at once, because I'm usually following the Israeli and American news. They're following Arab news. All the phones buzz. So somebody stopped talking, and we all picked up our phone to look at it. And I'm looking at the headlines thinking, oh, boy, am I in the wrong room, right? And after a minute or so of people kind of catching their breath, understanding what happened, two or three of them said, wow, Jason. Like, that's incredible. Like, you know, I wasn't in the White House anymore, but they also want a different future, right? They are sick and tired of Lebanon being a failed state. Their kids are like my kids, and they're just . . . they're everything that they're building is for a different future, and I see that time and time again. So to go back to the UAE diplomats comment, which I hear all the time as well. It really is a fight of moderates against extremists. The extremists are loud and they're very bad. We know that, but we are so much better. So working together, I think we're going to get to somewhere great. Jason Isaacson: Very good. Okay. Final question. You can applaud, it's okay. Thank you for that. Out of the Abraham Accords have grown some regional cooperation agreements. I too, you too, IMEC, the India, Middle East, Europe, Economic corridor. Do you see that also, as part of the future, the creation of these other regional agreements, perhaps bringing in Japan and Korea and and other parts of the world into kind of expanding the Abraham Accords? In ways that are beneficial to many countries and also, at the same time, deepening the notion of Israelis, Israel's integration in the region. Jason Greenblatt: 100% and I know I think AJC has been very active on the IMEC front. People used to say, Oh, this is not an economic peace. It isn't an economic peace, but nor is economics not a very important part of peace. So all of these agreements, I encourage you to keep working toward them, because they will be needed. In fact, one of the fights that I used to have with Saeb Erekat and President Abbas all the time is, I know you're not an economic issue, but let's say we manage to make peace. What's going to happen the next day? You need an economic plan. Let's work on the economic plan. So whether it's IMEC or something else, just keep working at it. Go, you know, ignore the bad noise. The bad noise is here for a little while, unfortunately, but there will be a day after, and those economic agreements are what's going to be the glue that propels it forward. Jason Isaacson: Jason Greenblatt, really an honor to be with you again. Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman: In our next episode of the series, we will explore more of the opportunities and challenges presented by the Abraham Accords and who might be the next country to sign the landmark peace agreement. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible. You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at podcasts@ajc.org. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Inspired Middle East : ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Mystical Middle East : ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher