About this episode
Unpack the findings from AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2022 report on young U.S. Jews, including those on college campuses, with the Senior Director of AJC's Alexander Young Leadership Department, Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman. We also hear from Northwestern University student Lily Cohen, whose efforts to encourage constructive dialogue following a disturbing antisemitic encounter on her college campus has sparked hostility, friendship, and above all, a renewed sense of Jewish pride. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. ___ Episode Lineup: (0:40) Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman and Lily Cohen ___ Show Notes: Read: AJC's State of Antisemtism in America Report 2022 Take this quiz to test your knowledge of how antisemitism impacts America and its Jewish population Cohen: I am more proud of my Jewish identity than anyone can ever hate me for it Listen: Our most recent podcast episode: Breaking Down the Headlines from Israel: From Secretary Blinken's Visit, to Terror Attacks, Protests, and More Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us. ____ Transcript of Interview with Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman and Lily Cohen Manya Brachear Pashman: This week, AJC released its State of Antisemitism in America 2022 report, its fourth annual look at the perceptions of antisemitism among American Jews and the American public. So much has happened since AJC launched the annual survey in 2019, one year after the mass shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, and so much has been learned, given the rise of antisemitism and anti-Zionism on college campuses. This year survey included new questions directed toward current and recent college students and their parents. Here to discuss the findings of those questions and more is an occasional guest host of this podcast, Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman. AJC 's Senior Director of the Alexander Young Leadership department. Meggie, thank you for bringing your expertise to that side of the mic. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Thanks for having me. Manya. Manya Brachear Pashman: And with Meggie to share her own personal experience with antisemitism on campus. This school here is Lily Cohen, a junior at Northwestern University, whose efforts to encourage constructive dialogue on her college campus has sparked both hostility and friendship. Lily, welcome to People of the Pod. Lily Cohen: Thanks, Manya. Happy to be here. Manya Brachear Pashman: So, Meggie, I want to start with you. If you could please share with our listeners why this annual report is important, and what some of the more significant findings were? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Thanks, Manya. So part of what makes our survey really unique is we're both looking at how antisemitism affects the lives, of the actions of American Jews, but we also compare that to how the American general public perceives that threat. And over the last year, it really feels like we're experiencing a surge in antisemitism that's particularly affecting young Jews within the campus space. But to actually gain a better understanding, we specifically surveyed those who are current students, or recent graduates, or parents of current students. And what we found supports those feelings, it really provides data, and in certain areas, unfortunately, a more dire picture. Some of our topline findings are: more than a third of current or recent Jewish college students encountered challenges on campus related to their Jewish identity. And what we found is that growing antisemitism is affecting the behaviors and decisions of young Jews today, both in person and online. One out of every five Jewish college students reported feeling unsafe on their university campus because of their Jewish identity. A staggering 85% of U.S. Jews between the ages of 18 to 29 have seen or were themselves targets of antisemitism online. Manya Brachear Pashman: 85%, wow, that is staggering. How much of that had to do with students' support for the existence of Israel? Or was that a separate finding? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: I would say this is intrinsically linked to what we will hear from Lily, is that there's pushback students experienced when publicly supporting Israel, 14% say they have felt or have been excluded from a campus event or group because of assumed or actual connection to Israel. So these findings really speak to that level of fear and intimidation that we can't allow to become normalized on the college campus. Manya Brachear Pashman: Of course, AJC has been doing this report for four years, the questions for college students, about the college experience were new this year. But what are some of the constants that keep emerging each year that AJC does the report? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: The constant, which is an unfortunate one, to be frank, is that antisemitism remains a real problem in American society. We found that 41% of American Jews reported the status of Jews being less secure than a year ago. That's 10 percentage points higher than 2021. That's a big number, a big jump. One in five feel unsafe when attending Jewish institutions with which they're affiliated. You mentioned what changed. And I think a reality is that the growing rate and feelings of antisemitism are creating a broader awareness within the American ecosystem. So over nine in 10 U.S. adults say that antisemitism is a problem for everyone and affects society as a whole. Fewer adults this year have discussed never hearing or knowing the term antisemitism, that went down from 16% in 2021, to nine this year. Manya Brachear Pashman: Meggie, in January of last year, someone entered a synagogue and Colleyville, Texas, and there was a hostage situation. Many people heard about this in the news, how did that affect people's anxieties when responding to this survey? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Yeah, so that's something we asked about specifically. And the reality there is that it both increased concern around antisemitism within the Jewish community, while simultaneously raising awareness in broader society. And for those who might not remember all the details of that really harrowing experience, someone came into Congregation Beth Israel in Colleyville, Texas, a group was doing Shabbat services like so many of us do. He then took Rabbi Cytron-Walker and other Jewish worshipers hostage for 11 hours. And that motive, which is a really important part for us to understand here, was the release of someone named Aafia Siddiqui, herself in prison on terror charges, because he thought that due to antisemitic beliefs in Jewish control, that Jews would be able to make her release possible. And that false notion that Jews control media, banks, governments, that antisemitic conspiracy theory showcases how theories like that move into tangible threat. And of course, the heroism of Rabbi Cytron-Walker ultimately allowed for his escape and the escape of his fellow Jews inside. But that was a harrowing experience for Jews in this country and something where it felt like it could have been any of us. And our data shows that. So for American Jews who had heard of Colleyville, were aware of it, the majority said it made them feel less safe today. One in five American Jewish respondents feel unsafe attending Jewish institutions that they are affiliated with, because of fears of antisemitism. I personally think about that when I drop my daughter off at Jewish daycare. And I know I'm not alone in that. So the reality of the attack and growing attacks, just like in Colleyville, is that it's both adding very real fears to American Jewry, while simultaneously leading to increased awareness of antisemitism within the broader American public. Manya Brachear Pashman: As counterintuitive as it might seem, the finding that more people, more adults have heard the term and know the definition of antisemitism. That's actually a good thing when you can't take a stand against something or avoid it if you don't know what it is. And I think part of that awareness was because of Colleyville. But also because of the many other issues that were in the headlines. Kanye West's very high profile, antisemitic tirades, Kyrie Irving's endorsement of an antisemitic film, the FBI warning that was issued to New Jersey synagogues, including my own back in the fall. And in fact, this survey research was done during that time period, correct? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Yes, exactly. And I think Manya, that kind of reality or that predicament, however you want to look at it is exactly right. So both of those incidents, like you mentioned, both with Kanye and with Kyrie Irving happened while our survey was in the field. So, you know, my presumption is that they really did raise awareness on these issues. And that's reflected in our data. We also saw that after, we saw that with celebrities speaking out, we saw it with the NBA's response to Kyrie. What also can't be overlooked with Kanye specifically and I'll also say particularly before he had his kind of like broader cultural downfall, there today or something like 15 million Jews here across the world. Kanye, before his Twitter was banned had 30 million followers. His reach can't be stated enough, especially when we have cultural figures, who are peddling deeply antisemitic tropes. And I think our data shows that. Our data shows that that bleeds over into the broader American public. Manya Brachear Pashman: I want to talk a little bit about the statistics, the findings, about how young people seemed especially affected by these fears by these anxieties, and actually experienced more of the hate out there, than adults our age, older than 30, that is, right? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: So that was a feeling that many of us had going into the survey, but it was just that: a feeling. And one of the profound things about this year's survey is that we were able to understand empirically, not just anecdotally, that American Jews are experiencing antisemitism differently than other generations, often at a higher rate. So among young Jews 18 to 29, who experienced antisemitism online, one in four said that that online encounter made them feel physically threatened. That's compared to only 14% in the over 30 set. We found that 85% of American Jews are experienced antisemitism online or on social media, as compared to only 64% of Jews who are in that over 30 set. And I think what's also really important here is that these anxieties are leading to behavioral changes within Jewish college students. And these are often changes that they feel forced to make. So one in five current or recent students avoided wearing items that could identify them as Jewish. 18% felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because they were Jewish. And I think students feel singled out for who they are and what they believe in. That's not okay. More colleges and universities need to acknowledge and ensure that Jewish students feel safe and are protected. And also, our data shows that young students are noticing they feel unseen, almost six and 10 of Jewish young adults think antisemitism is taken less seriously than other forms of hate. And I hope that's a number that people hold on to because if we're creating and have a generation who feel unseen, clearly more work needs to be done by broader society. Manya Brachear Pashman: Lily, this is probably a good time to bring you in since we're talking about your peers. You are a junior at Northwestern University in suburban Chicago, my old stomping ground. You started attending there nearly three years ago, what have you witnessed since you arrived? Lily Cohen: Something that I have noticed frequently over the past about two and a half years was this sense on campus, similar to what Meggie was talking about, of Jewish students feeling a little bit concerned sometimes about sharing all of the parts of their Jewish identity specifically when it came to talking about Israel. And the other side of this was seeing a lot of sort of activist students on campus, very active and vocally anti-Israel, and sort of creating a climate that made it uncomfortable for Jewish students to be loudly and proudly in support of Israel. And the result of that, that I noticed among a lot of my friends, was sort of shying away from maybe posting when they were traveling to Israel, or posting in support of Israel. And a lot of this was on social media. But as things have moved back in person on campus, as we've come out of the pandemic, I think a lot of both the anti-Israel activism and the fears about displaying our pride in our Judaism and in supporting the State of Israel, have also sort of turned more in person. And so in a lot of senses, this has looked like anti-Israel students on campus, adorning walls and different areas of campus with phrases like 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' calling Israel an apartheid state, calling it a genocidal state, and equating Zionists of all forms- American Zionists, and Israelis in the IDF and the Israeli government- sort of as one. And so I think that has likely contributed to a lot of the statistics that Meggie was mentioning, just because all of this combined is making, at least in my case of what I've noticed here, it's making at least my college campus feel like a more hostile environment for Jewish students. Manya Brachear Pashman: So when you first arrived, almost three years ago, were you expecting that level of hostility? And did you feel compelled to speak up, or not so much? Lily Cohen: Quite honestly, coming in, I didn't expect this as much because I'd spoken to a lot of Jewish students before getting to campus. And I had asked them what their experiences had been like. And if they had seen or witnessed or experienced antisemitism on campus, and very few of them really had anything to share. Some of them mentioned that sometimes Israel comes up in conversation, and some people agree with you, and some people don't. But it didn't really seem to be as pressing of an issue. But then early on my freshman year, in the fall, before I was even on campus, since we were at home, online, for COVID reasons, there was some action going on on campus. It ended up becoming this complicated thing. But the organization that had organized this action, which originally had nothing to do with Israel, with antisemitism, with anti-Zionism, but this organization came out sort of against all forms of hate. And in that list of types of hatred, included both antisemitism and Zionism, and sort of saying that both of those were very problematic and hateful ideologies. And this was kind of before I had a Northwestern community at all, I was still in my childhood bedroom in New Jersey, kind of watching this unfold on social media, and especially seeing this happen for the first time before I had a community and while I was not even on campus, I very much shied away from speaking up. Manya Brachear Pashman: So what changed this year to break your silence? Lily Cohen: I think it was sort of just by nature of this is my third year here, my second year now fully in person. So I feel pretty established in my communities, the organizations I'm a part of, especially the ones sort of outside of Hillel and the Jewish spaces, which were the ones that I was originally more hesitant to be publicly pro-Israel in. I'm a little bit less worried about the backlash, because I know that I have foundations in a lot of great communities on campus that know me, for me, know and like who I am. And that won't necessarily jump to judgments about me once I started talking about these things that are important to me. Manya Brachear Pashman: I want to talk about a very specific incident that happened to you in the fall. But before we do, Meggie, I want to ask you, if that's typical, what Lily is describing? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Well, I don't know if I can necessarily divide it based on where you are within your undergraduate career. But I do think the one part that is very true, and I think similar is that it takes a lot of courage to speak up. And I think often we forget that we think exactly like you outlined, like you see something antisemitic, of course, you would speak up. But you know what, when you are in that instance, right, especially if you don't have people around you to provide that community and support. That's a really lonely place to be, right? And it takes a lot of courage to say, I'm going to raise my hand, I'm going to call this out, whether it comes with social kind of isolation in certain places, whether it comes with professional conflict, which you know, of course, we would hope does not, but you cited certain student groups, that's been the experience of some. And I think, I always say that all not in any way to discourage I hope I'm encouraging people to follow your bravery. But just to zoom out for a moment and say, our student leaders on campus who speak up for what's right, deserve a whole lot of credit, and really are showcasing a lot of courage. Manya Brachear Pashman: So kudos to you, Lily, because you have been very outspoken this year at Northwestern, especially after a particular incident last fall, can you tell listeners about the rock, what it symbolizes on Northwestern campus, kind of what the customs are in terms of of respecting free speech and different messaging, and what happened. Lily Cohen: So, that messaging that I'd mentioned earlier, that students have frequently been adorning around campus, such as 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' I saw coming up a lot more this past fall, the fall of 2022. We have a rock on campus that is sort of a symbol of free speech. So the idea is that student groups can paint the rock with whatever message it is they want to share. So whether that is to advertise an event or to spread awareness about an issue. And there are some unwritten rules and traditions about the rock, specifically that student groups, in order to paint the rock, have to camp out and guard the rock for 24 hours beforehand. In the fall, I had been part of a group of students that a couple of days before the midterm elections, we painted the rock, encouraging passers-by to vote with gun safety and reproductive rights in mind. I believe it was five or six hours later, we saw that another group was painting over our message on the rock. And the language that our rock painting was being covered with was indeed this, 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' and a lot of those other similar phrases. And that I think, was part of what really motivated me to write the piece that I wrote, just the fact that it was this time covering up something that I had worked to create, really hit me in a different way and motivated my decision to ultimately publish something very publicly talking about my Jewish identity and my connection to Israel and how that specific phrase that is around campus a lot is hurtful to me as a Jewish student. Manya Brachear Pashman: You did write a column for The Daily Northwestern, which is the campus newspaper there, and we'll put a link to that column in our show notes for listeners to read. And in that column. I thought it was quite lovely, the way that you framed it. It really talked about, it really comes across as a love letter to your Jewish traditions, your Jewish values, your Jewish upbringing, your Jewish pride that you hold quite dear. And you also did call on the university to condemn the slogan 'From the river to the sea' as an antisemitic slogan, and you explained why. I'm curious, Meggie do other activists and college students frame the response, or frame their explanations, their fight against antisemitism in a similar way to how Lily did it? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Well, I think, you know, the responses to antisemitism certainly vary, first of all, for anyone who has not read it yet, Lily's piece is beautiful. And I think Manya, you put it just right, where it is really a love letter to what the beauty of Judaism on campus can be. The reason why I think that is so important. And it is an equation within antisemitism that we have to think about is, you know, at the start of our conversation, we were talking about a lot of statistics, a lot of things that can feel, that are indeed actually quite concerning for Jewish students today. What happened to Lily, which we'll get to after that, too, is quite concerning. But part of also, Jewish peoplehood, is that, yes, we need to acknowledge the real challenges that exists, if not, our silence is normalizing it. But it's actually the most Jewish of ways to say there are challenges. But also we're going to talk about vibrancy, we're going to talk about the power of our community. We're going to talk about the beauty that Judaism is and we're not going to let other people, including people actually, who not only want to limit our voices, but actually want to be detrimental to the Jewish experience, we're not going to let them do that. And I think, Lily, in particular in what you wrote, you capture just that, of acknowledging that campus life for most Jews is indeed really vibrant and thriving. Again, we're not glossing over the real challenges that you know, doing that enters a space for normalization, normalizing antisemitism, which none of us are in any way giving any legitimacy to. But we do need to remember that there's so much joy and positivity within Jewish life on campus. Manya Brachear Pashman: So yes, as Meggie alluded to, this is not the end of the story. I would love to say that framing it in that context kind of kept the opposing voices and the naysayers from lashing out. But it didn't. Let's tell listeners what happened, Lily. Lily Cohen: So pretty immediately after I published my op-ed, as I had sort of expected, there was this first wave of social media backlash. In these tweets, I was called a terrorist, a colonizer, I was called violent, I was called a white supremacist, I was called an array of expletives. And this immediate backlash was really just students who don't know me, jumping to assumptions about me, making judgments about my character, and taking attacks at my character, solely for this one part of my piece, which was that I found this phrase 'from the river to the sea,' to be problematic, and to be sort of at odds with my Jewish identity and my comfort as a Jewish student on campus. And while I had hoped that sort of cushioning this within this piece, really about how much I love being Jewish, and how much I love being able to share that on campus, unfortunately, that still wasn't enough to avoid all of the negative response. After the social media had started dying down a little bit, and the weekend was coming. And I was feeling like by Monday, most people would have forgotten about this, especially those who had a problem with it, and we would move on. Unfortunately, that was not the case. And early Monday morning, I received a call from one of my friends that there had been a banner put up on the main street of our campus in front of the library that was made up of about 40 copies of my article, and painted over all of those copies was the phrase 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,' in red paint. It wasn't just a banner sort of in response to my op-ed, but it was directly targeted at me and my words, because they put it on top of my name and my words. Manya Brachear Pashman: Not everyone who disagreed handled it this way, right. The daily Northwestern also published a column by a senior by the name of Hamza Mahmood, who disagreed with always condemning that slogan from the river to the sea. Can you talk a little bit about your interaction with him and how it went beyond the counter column? Lily Cohen: Part of what I was trying to do with publishing my piece was find the people willing to have conversations on campus. And because while there is sort of this echo chamber of the very vocally anti-Israel voices, especially on Twitter and putting up these messages around campus, I know that there are students here that are willing to engage, but I just haven't been able to find them. And it really was a very respectful piece. The place where it sort of diverged a little bit, not from respect, but just from what I had written, was that he had a different understanding of the phrase 'from the river to the sea' and had a different opinion about what activists were intending when they were putting it up around campus. And I read his piece and wanted to reach out, we grabbed coffee a couple of days later, and we very quickly bonded. Before we even got to talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, about activism on campus, about literally anything related, we just got to know each other as people. He's a Muslim student, I'm obviously a Jewish student, one of the first conversations we had was about how we both don't eat pork. And we bonded over that. And when we did get to the topic of conversation that had brought us together in the first place, and we started talking about our different understandings of what that phrase means, though I didn't agree with him, and though he didn't agree with me, we asked each other questions, we really tried to understand each other's perspectives. And so I walked away from that coffee, not feeling frustrated that I hadn't changed his mind, but feeling grateful that I had had a conversation with someone that was both willing to listen, and willing to share. Manya Brachear Pashman: I'm curious, did he have thoughts on that banner? Did he have thoughts on the response, including that banner? Lily Cohen: He did think that it was completely wrong. He thought it was bullying. He thought it was absolutely terrible that anyone would do that. But he wasn't completely convinced that it was an act of antisemitism, more than just an act of bullying and disrespect. Manya Brachear Pashman: So Meggie, I'm curious, in terms of allies on campus, do college students share similar stories of having difficulty finding the allies on campus? And what advice do you have for students who are searching for those people who aren't necessarily going to agree, but are at least willing to listen? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: First of all, what a beautiful story, and Lily, I think, Manya to your question, it's, I think, indicative by the way of campus culture today, but I also think of our broader society, right? Where dialogue I mean, let's go back to campus. Campus is supposed to be the bastion of free exchange of ideas, right? That is often where most people come and experience people who are from different walks of life. But for that to work, you need to have an environment where that dialogue, where open exchange is accepted. And I think what we're seeing on campus, and within the broader society, you mentioned, Twitter. Twitter's probably the most extreme of this, of that, even if the number of people are small, the loud voices dominate. And often those voices they want silo, right? They don't want to sit down, they don't want to actually have that exchange. And I think kind of the power in the calling for all of us, Jewish students included, on campus, and in broader society, is to find those allies, those friends, those partners, who do want to sit down and have actual conversation, even if-and this is a part I think we all need to get behind-even if you know they're not the ones who are on the quads screaming the loudest, making the biggest show, you know, finding people who will actually talk and build those bridges with you is really important. Manya Brachear Pashman: Finally, Lily, I want to ask you about your winter break, during which you went to Israel, with other college students from across the country. And you felt a little differently about sharing pictures and posts from your trip than they did as a result of this incident, if I'm not mistaken. Can you share a little bit about that? Lily Cohen: I think one of the best things, I guess, to come out of this situation is sort of the sense of relief that I'm not hiding this part of myself anymore. And so when I went on Birthright over winter break, I had no hesitations about sharing pictures on social media showing that I was in Israel, because I had kind of already ripped the band aid off on that one. I had already sort of announced to everyone at least at Northwestern that I support Israel's existence. Whereas both speaking with other students on my trip and with Northwestern students in years past, there has been a different sense of comfort with sharing that information about going to and spending time in Israel. For example, over the summer, there were a lot of Northwestern students in Israel on a variety of different programs or just traveling there with friends. And going back to Twitter, there were tweets about people making lists of all of the Northwestern students that were partying in Israel. I was on a trip with students from several different schools, and so I found that many of my friends on the trip who go to different schools, were very hesitant to share with peers from their school, that they were in Israel, and that they were on Birthright, because they were worried about how it would be received and how they would be treated sort of in response to that. Whereas I think one thing that the whole experience I went through in the fall sort of helped with was, I didn't have to worry about that anymore. I just didn't feel like I needed to hide anymore, that I would spend time in Israel, that I was there, and that I was having a great time there. Manya Brachear Pashman: Meggie, does that reflect what the survey found as well, when it comes to college students and young adults on social media? Are they also hesitant to post? Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Yeah, well, what we found certainly within the campus space is that over one in 10, college students feel like they have been penalized, for doing just that for talking about their ties with Israel. I would say, Lily, I keep singing your praises, but they're deserved. I hope that more and more students can get to the place that you're at now, where no one should have to hide part of their identity. And again, acknowledging that in certain environments, it can be daunting, but there are kind of two lenses. One just in principle, we shouldn't be in a position in 2023, where any Jewish student should feel like they have to hide who they are, because of repercussions. The second part is, I'm not denying that that happens in certain corners. But I think what's so important, and your story speaks to this, both through Hillel, both through the friendships you've made with some people because of it, find your community. Find your community so that you're not standing alone. And I think that's a really important step. Manya Brachear Pashman: And not just on social media. Don't just find the community on Twitter or on Facebook, find it on the ground. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: In-person community. Exactly. Thanks, Manya. Manya Brachear Pashman: Well, Meggie, Lily, thank you both for joining us to talk about the data for putting a voice to it. These are not just numbers and statistics. Lily, they are you and your peers and our people, our peers. So thank you both so much for having this conversation. Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Thanks, Manya. It was a pleasure. Lily Cohen: Thanks for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: Think you know the state of antisemitism in America? Take AJC's quiz and test your knowledge of how antisemitism impacts America and its Jewish population. Find it at ajc.org/antisemitismreport2022. We'll include a link in our show notes. And if you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC Paris director Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache, about France's most recent upgrades to its plan for fighting antisemitism.