What’s Going On With Real Estate Commissions? • Unpopular Real Estate Opinions • Chris Linsell

Welcome to our monthly feature Unpopular Real Estate Opinions with Chris Linsell . In this episode, Chris discusses his predictions for 2024 and what will real estate market look like. Chris also talks about what will happen with the buyer-side commission. Next, Chris and DJ discuss why this is a great time for buyers to enter the market. Chris also shares some tricks on how to unlock inventory in your market. Last, Chris discusses 2 things that will differentiate you from other agents and bring you success this year. Please check Chris’ profile on LinkedIn. If you’d prefer to watch this interview, click here to view on YouTube! This episode is brought to you by Real Geeks . Transcript D.J. Paris 0:00 Today we have one of the most sought after journalists and speakers to talk about his predictions for the real estate market and 2024 crystallin. Sal is our guest. Stay tuned. This episode of Keeping it real is brought to you by real geeks. How many homes are you going to sell this year? Do you have the right tools? Is your website turning soft leads in interested buyers? Are you spending money on leads that aren’t converting? Well real geeks is your solution. Find out why agents across the country choose real geeks as their technology partner. Real geeks was created by an agent for agents. They pride themselves on delivering a sales and marketing solution so that you can easily generate more business. Their agent websites are fast and built for lead conversion with a smooth search experience for your visitors. Real geeks also includes an easy to use agent CRM. So once a lead signs up on your website, you can track their interest and have great follow up conversations. Real geeks is loaded with a ton of marketing tools to nurture your leads and increase brand awareness visit real geeks.com forward slash keeping it real pod and find out why Realtors come to real geeks to generate more business again, visit real geeks.com forward slash keeping it real pod and now on to our show Welcome to keeping it real the largest podcast made by real estate agents and for real estate agents. My name is DJ Paris. I am your guide and host through the show and today is our newest monthly series called unpopular real estate opinions with Chris Lynn sell. Now Chris Liddell is a real estate technology analyst and director of content at large. He specializes in new solutions to old questions, constantly exploring the cutting edge of technology in the real estate space. Chris also has many years of experience as a licensed Realtor in the state of Michigan and has worked as a marketer, a digital strategist and a trainer for major national brands like Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices of Michigan, and Coldwell Banker Schmidt Realtors throughout his real estate career, Chris has been part of hundreds of transactions ranging from modest rural starter homes to multimillion dollar waterside compounds, and accomplished musician, actor and speaker Chris has engaged with audiences sizes ranging from 30 to 3000. Most recently, Chris was a featured speaker at the National Association of Realtors Conference this past fall, and he’s probably done other engagements even since we are CEU. Oh, for all things, Chris, please visit his website, Chris Lynn cell.com. Also he posts a lot on LinkedIn and Twitter. We will have links to Chris’s social media profiles. You can follow him there, Chris, welcome to the show. Once again, DJ, Chris Linsell 3:03 glad to be back. Thanks for having me. Happy New Year 2024. Here we are. Happy D.J. Paris 3:08 New Year. And I would also just really quickly like to say thank you to our audience, I got a very nice holiday gift. I try not to bog myself down in the metrics of of our show. However, we did have our very biggest month ever, which I didn’t even know I don’t ever look at December numbers because they were always the lowest of the year. But my marketing person shared our statistics just the other day with me for December. I was like don’t show me and he goes no, you want to see these. And they were actually up. So thanks in part to Chris Chris has actually been part of our show for years. And we have a new feature for him now, which is very exciting, called unpopular real estate opinions. So we this is our second episode in this series. We’ll be doing this monthly. Chris, let’s let’s jump right into it. What’s what’s unpopular right now in your mind? Chris Linsell 3:59 Oh, man, well, DJ again, thanks for having me back. I love that every every time we get together now I get to bring some of the topics that I talked about with people on social and in person. And I’m just kind of earmarking all the ones that people yell at me the most about so that I can share them with you. Because just because people don’t like it doesn’t mean it ain’t true. So I’ve got a few unpopular opinions that maybe we should chat about. The first is and, you know, take this with a grain of salt here. But the first is 2024 is going to be a terrible year for real estate until it’s not. And I know that sounds like a really weird way of saying it. But basically what I’m trying to get at here is that the beginning of 2024 is going to be challenging. We’ve got a lot of people who are proud masticating that 2020 For the new year, it’s going to be a brand new leaf. I don’t think so man, I think that the first half of 2024 is still going to be very challenging for a number of reasons. But the second half of 2024 is likely to be one of the busiest times in real estate that we’ve seen in a long time, a certain certainly compared to the first half of the year. So for agents who are looking to do some forecasting for themselves on this year, I wouldn’t be forecasting pretty lean until about June and then get your roller skates on, because that’s the only way you’re going to be able to get get to and from fast enough to serve us all the clients that you’re going to have. D.J. Paris 5:44 Yeah, and I think I think you’re right. So it really will be sort of this diametrically opposed in your mind, sort of halves of the year. So we’ll have the half nots, maybe in the, in the first half of the year due to, you know, market construction, we’ve got high interest rates, we have low inventory, we just have less activity quite Chris Linsell 6:06 Yeah. And you know, here’s the reason why this, this tends to be kind of a flashpoint issue for for folks, is ultimately some of the reasons why I think 2020 for the second half is going to accelerate, and not necessarily for the better of our clients, honestly, is, we have in 2023 experienced this incredible constriction of the market just in general. I mean, it was just it was a hard time to buy and sell a home in the United States. And I’ll even say, hard time to sell a home, even though homes are fetching record prices, it’s just a difficult time to sell because the markets feel so uncertain at the moment, and that’s making sellers nervous. We’ve just, we experienced some record constriction, in 2023. And 2024 is going to be the year where all of the pent up demand that occurred through 2023. And frankly, still some leftover pent up demand in COVID. That’s going to kind of break loose. And that’s going to be really exciting and interesting. But the reason why this is kind of an unpopular conversation topic is I don’t think this is necessarily to the benefit of our clients. Because we’re going to go from having quiet, challenging markets to extraordinarily hot and competitive markets, we’re going to see whiplash amongst our buyers very, very quickly. Sellers with unrealistic timelines. And then you’re going to layer in on top of all of that these lawsuits faced by NAR that are going to create a whole new level of uncertainty around commissions, which is not something that was a part of the conversation from COVID through 2023, I guess the second half of 2023. But it’s going to be a busy year in real estate. Real estate professionals need to keep their head on straight if they actually want to translate that busyness into benefit for their clients. Do D.J. Paris 8:19 you believe that? That in the upcoming let’s say 24 Next 24 months, that there will be any reform to buyer side commissions? Right? Where are they going to have to come to the table with with cash? Is it going to be built into their mortgage? If they have one? Or is it still going to be all technically sourced by the seller and just maybe more transparently split? Chris Linsell 8:49 Great question. Here’s a couple of things that I am confident it will not be. I’m confident it will not be built into a mortgage. The reason behind that is 99%, maybe 98 and a half percent of mortgages in the United States have, excuse me particular stipulations that regulate the only real property can be used as this this tool can only be used to finance real property. So though there are certain percentage level exceptions to that, that conveniently get applied by the banks and not by outside sources like you can you can actually roll in your closing costs and some loans into the mortgageable amount. Banks are happy to charge you interest on that stuff. Sure. But the other fees and costs associated with real estate, I think will be a very challenging hill to climb as far as rolling them into mortgages. to your specific question about whether or not I think we’ll see any reform. The answer is yes, but I think the reform will occur On our on the level of professional bodies, I don’t see the United States as a governmental body passing any kind of mortgage reform in the next 24 months. That is maybe a commentary on the state of politics in the United States, but just generally speaking, that seems like a no win issue. Because you have particular interests on the part of consumers that happen to also kind of come up at odds with the interests of one of the largest professional advocacy groups in the entire country, almost the world in an AR. So I don’t think there’ll be any kind of movement from a from a legal perspective there, but I do think NAR will likely in install some new internal professional regulations, but they are just going to be tweaks to the initial to the existing law regs, which basically says you can offer optionally to pay a buyer’s agent, it is not an assumed requirement, like like it is now basically, which, which is what got NAR in trouble before, it’s going to become optional, you can choose whether or not you want to offer a buyer side. And that just will become more explicit. What does that actually change? Pretty damn close to nothing. Frankly, I think we are going to and again, on popularly I understand this is going to be to the detriment of our consumers and to the detriment of us professionally, because it’s just going to extend the quagmire through which we have to wade through on this issue. 2024 is going to be a year where we have to explain to every single client, why that lawsuit happened, what the results were and what it means to them. And the real kind of sticky wicket clients are going to be insisting that things change, even though they don’t even know what they want them to change to other than they just want to pay less. So this is going to be a year where we should start rehearsing that conversation. Because again, first half of the year, it’s going to be pretty quiet the second half of the year, there’s going to be an incredible amount of activity. So you’re going to be having this conversation on a regular basis with people. So D.J. Paris 12:31 if if we do assume that the second half of the year quarters three and four are going to be more active, more buyers, certainly as rates decline, which we hope happens and seems to be what the economists are predicting. Would you recommend as an agent today to really encourage the both sides buyer and seller or or just one or neither? To participate in the market before it gets flooded with competition? Chris Linsell 13:05 Oh, big time 100% In fact, the real, like the purchasing power of dollars is going to be I’m sorry, let me let me rephrase that the purchasing power of buyers is going to be measurably higher in the first half of the year. And the reason behind this is you know, Lawrence Yun from from NAR Chief Economist from NAR has has publicly predicted that he expects to see interest rates, hold steady for the first, you know, quarter or third of the year and then start to trickle down that start that when we see mortgage rates trickle down, I am willing to bet I’m willing to bet the backyard on the fact that when we see four weeks in a row of trickled down mortgage rates, we’re going to see an increase out of out of that a disproportionately large increase in buyer activity. So the reduction in mortgage rates are going to be offset by this buyer activity. And it’s going to make it harder and more expensive at the end of the day to buy a house. Because even though that rate is going to go down, the competition is going to go up by a disproportionate percentage. So if you have clients who are waiting on the sidelines right now saying, Well, I’m not I’m ready to buy a house, but I’m not going to buy it until I have a mortgage rate that you know starts with 6.2. These are people who the banks are just salivating over because yeah, they might get a 6.2% mortgage rate, but the purchase price on their home isn’t going to be $410,000 Are whatever the median prices right now, it’s going to be $460,000, they’re gonna make more money, the banks will make more money at lower rates, if we see that trickle that slow trickle down. 2024 is going to be a challenging year to get the timing right. And whenever I say, whenever I’m talking to people about how to effectively service their real estate clients, when it comes to market timing, I always tell them, if you have a client who thinks that they’re going to time the market, this is somebody that you should refer, because this is somebody who will waste your time. And when it is actually time when they actually feel like they’re activated, they will never be satisfied, because the window for their success is non existent, despite what they actually say. D.J. Paris 15:54 Yeah, it’s a very strong point. Yes. And that that being said, as an agent today, what would be I think, really beneficial is that Realtors start proactively contacting clients and having these conversations and having this explanation of, here’s why it might make sense to list today or to get into the buyer side. You know, in talking about their creative financing solutions, I know, we wanted to get into some some solutions to help help buyers a little bit more when it demonstrates are high, but also just having the conversation of it’s very similar to having the the buy low sell high conversation, when when you know, we’re talking about securities and financial advisors, you know, if they’re, if they’re worth their salt, they, you know, once a stock is up significantly is not the time to purchase traditionally. So but but psychologically, it feels like the time to buy because things are looking good in the stock market. So we know that logically, but emotionally, that’s sort of the hurdle people have to get over. And I think the emotional hurdle gets extinguished or gets cleared very easily with logic, but I think it has information has to be communicated. And that’s not necessarily the message that I’m seeing a lot on in the media. Right now, I’m seeing a lot of talk about mortgage rates, I’m not seeing a lot of talk about whether it’s actually a good time to purchase and what the logic behind that is, or to sell. And I think this is where a realtor can really earn their stripes by reaching out to their clients and saying, Hey, here’s what really is not being talked about. And if you have data to back it up even better to say, you know, let’s go back a couple of years when rates were below 4%. And let’s take a look at what the average prices of homes, you might be looking at purchasing, let’s see what they closed for. Let’s see what they listed for and let’s see what they closed for. And let’s remember what the what those times were, if you were an agent back then if not, the data is there, you can go back and look. And you will you will, you know we can all shutter from from a little bit of those times about how difficult it was to just do much of anything, if you’re on the buy side Chris Linsell 18:09 100%. In fact, any agents I’m gonna give, I’m gonna give anybody who’s listening, if you’re feeling motivated by DJs, golden words of wisdom, which you all feeling motivated by her. If you are if you just made a mental notes that you need to start talking to your clients about opportunities relative to kind of the expected timing in this market. I’m gonna give you some ammunition here. And this is actually, again, I’m gonna I’m gonna use an unpopular opinion here. Everyone who’s listening to this, take it steal this put this in your quiver, as a provocative topic to get a conversation started. Real Estate and 2024 is not going to have an inventory problem. It’s got to have a mortgage problem. And what I mean by that is, yeah, it’s true that we don’t have enough enough inventory to service the needs of the buyers. But the root of the inventory problem is mortgage rates. And we were talking earlier, remind me what you said, what percentage of homeowners in the United States currently have a mortgage rate less than 5% 85% 85? I mean, that’s insane. 85 out of every 100 homeowners have a mortgage rate of less than 5%. And I would venture to guess I don’t have the numbers in front of me. Excuse me, but I would venture to guess there’s a sizable percentage of people with a mortgage rate of less than 4% right now. And so, this is a choke point in the inventory cycle. That is going to create havoc for for inventory issues. And again, it is this is a mortgage problem. If you We are, if you want to take DJs advice and start having these conversations open with that line, we don’t have an inventory, we have problem, we have a mortgage problem. And then you can, you can stretch out DJs suggestions around the sorts of things that you should do to facilitate that conversation. Take it a step further, we have data from just, I mean, from the last year and a half of what, what the price of homes were when that when they closed at certain mortgage rates, and we had we had a mortgage rate ascent. I mean, in the last two years, we had a section a couple of months, where mortgage rates were between two and a half and 3%. And a couple of months between the three and three and a half, and so on and so on and so on, you can look back to each of those sections and look at the median prices of homes that are closing in your market. And then you can use those those prices and adjust for inflation. And you can say, okay, here in today’s dollars, here’s where these homes were closing. If that then you have data, you are armed with data to go to your consumers and say, Listen, this is what we can expect if mortgage rates hit this amount. This is where the median price is going to be. And you’re going to have an incredible amount of competition here is this where you want to be as a buyer, what’s the perfect window for you? What is what is the what is going to serve you best. And if you are servicing seller clients, you can tell folks right now like where is based on based on what we expect this trajectory of this market to be what’s going to be the price is going to get you to your goals, because ultimately right now, servicing sellers is not about selling their house, it is that that is a relative conclusion based on the construction of inventory. Servicing sellers is all about finding them their next place. If you can unlock that key, if you essentially treat your sellers as buyers, because that’s what they are right now. Then you you unlock more inventory for the market. So take that advice. Use that line, we don’t have an inventory problem, we have a mortgage problem, that is something that we need to solve and start talking through strategy, you’re gonna get more people leaning forward into your conversations than sitting back and being passive. D.J. Paris 22:34 I also think too, I talked to a lot of top luxury agents who get these massive listings for let’s say, you know, 5 million and above these just incredibly high net worth individuals who are playing at this, you know, top 1% level of income and, and, and, and just wealth. What’s interesting, and again, I’m as not as a nonpracticing agent, I didn’t know this until I told somebody told me years ago, but that when you sell a, you know, X, you know, million dollar home. One of the challenges is, is actually finding the buyer, actually listing it on the MLS is is oftentimes not that not as successful as actually reaching out to people who can afford those kinds of homes directly and saying, Hey, I’ve got this new listing, reaching out to agents who have worked in those same price points and saying, what buyers do you know, I’ve got this listing, you need to come see it. And I’m almost wondering if we’ll start to see a shift for even on the non luxury side, listing agents starting to reach out to homeowners who do not have their listing on the market and saying, I’m in the process of selling so and so’s home, they need a new place. And you know, it’s kind of similar to what real estate investors have done for years, where they just send postcards to these multifamily homes going, Hey, if you’re the owner, I’d like to buy your property. And they just kind of hope that somebody reaches back on I’m curious, we’ll start to see more of that this year. Chris Linsell 24:06 Yeah, I am, too. I mean, it’s like, in again, in some of the weirdest ways it feels like 2024 is going to be a cycle of a lot of the things that we don’t do anymore, that maybe we’re gonna start doing again, and will it actually be effective? will we actually be able to test the effectiveness of these strategies? I mean, ultimately, what it really comes down to is there’s always going to be changes in every market, including real estate, you know, we’re a cyclical business. If if, if we never cycled, we would have a fundamentally unhealthy market that was based, you know, that is propped up on artificial things. We should cycle every market cycles. Ultimately, though, what is going to separate the real performers from the pretenders out Yeah, as real estate professionals are the ones who can anticipate the cycles and get ahead of, you know, kind of run to where the ball is going to be, instead of just always chasing after the ball. D.J. Paris 25:13 Yeah, and I think this, we were talking about this offline about really figuring out since going back to mortgages being or the housing market having a mortgage problem this year, really thinking about creative ways to appease or solve for that. And there are there are creative solutions, there’s all sorts of, you know, solutions. And this would be, I think, a great time to really reach out to those top loan officers in your local market, and say, Hey, let’s let’s brainstorm here, you know, what, what ammo, can I come with? To convince a seller that it’s a good time to list? And how can we appeal most successfully to buyers? And does the seller help in that, and we know that, you know, to one buyer downs, for example, are are a pretty common alternative right now to, you know, incentivize buyers to get off the sidelines. Any what other suggestions do you have for agents who are just sort of unclear about what to do right now? Chris Linsell 26:13 Well, I mean, ultimately, the most successful agents, especially when we’re trying to solve financing problems, the most successful agents are the ones who are going to do two things better than their competitors. The first is, they are going to leverage the best connections in their market, to professionals who do things that they cannot do. So like there is a limited amount it’s not, it’s not zero. But there’s a limited amount of value that you can provide to your clients, when they have mortgage specific questions. You can definitely provide a 30,000 foot view maybe even a 10,000 foot view of of the options of the strategy and the way to apply those different options. But at the end of the day, your advice can only extend so far, because you don’t have the ability to exercise and actually put into action, some of those financial instruments that will get your clients across the finish line. So there’s a I think 2024 is going to be a year, where your connections to really savvy and thoughtful mortgage brokers of all stripes, ones that conduct FHA and rd loans, ones that specialize in jumbo or luxury loans, ones that optimize for speed, I guarantee you, there will be somebody in your 2024 real estate world who’s going to need a mortgage in eight days. And it’s just there’s going to be a client, we’re just we’re just going to see that kind of volatility in the market. If you’ve got a mortgage person who can optimize for speed, you are going to be a winner. So these are these are the like kind of the base level. But there’s this whole other element too, especially for folks who are not going to necessarily be perfectly serviced by the mortgage industry, primarily because the interest rates are not where they need to be. If you have financial advisors who can generate ideas on how to use existing wealth, how to create loans from protect, perhaps existing assets, if you have financial managers who can, you know, if you are somebody who is fortunate enough to have like retirement savings or investment accounts that you don’t have to liquidate, but you can borrow against this is something I’m seeing begin to rise in the mortgage space, or in replacement of mortgages as people borrowing against investment accounts. Because the loans are processed differently, the interest rates are different. And it still frees people up to keep that money invested. They’re just borrowing against that money. The agents if you if you are struggling with answering some of these questions, get connected with the people in your market who answer these questions in other contexts, because these are going to be your best friends for generating transactions because ultimately, unless you’ve got a mortgage license and work for a bank, there’s only so much advice that you can give so connect with the people who actually can actualize that advice. D.J. Paris 29:39 So we’re talking about accountants, we’re talking about financial advisors, CPAs financial planners, also estate planning attorneys really talking about this would be a great time to reach out to some of these professionals and say, hey, I want to give my clients the best possible opportunities this year for You know, moving and you know, we need to explore, I would love to explore some any any, any creative ideas you have based on different levels of wealth or net worth. There’s all sorts of solutions more, of course to Chris Linsell 30:13 yeah, let me give you one other kind of alternative. A lot of people don’t think of this. But if you have clients who are looking to buy in HOA dominated buildings or neighborhoods or coops, I can tell you from personal experience, because I’m on the HOA of my neighborhood. That D.J. Paris 30:36 is that is a thankless job, Chris, we appreciate on behalf of your association. We appreciate you guys Chris Linsell 30:43 keep the roads plowed. And I’m not driving the plow, so I’ll help write the checks. D.J. Paris 30:48 Sorry, I just had to I do appreciate you because I know nobody else does. Chris Linsell 30:52 Well, honestly, I did. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you. No, but this is an under utilized resource. But most HOAs that were formed after 2008 require new residents to include in there to include in their initiation into the neighborhood, their financing information. And though there are different, you know, effort, every HOA has their own rules, most HOAs require the specific information around the details of individual residents to remain confidential. But there is nothing in most bylaws that say that HOA reps can’t talk about these things in aggregate. So for instance, if you’re looking to get into a neighborhood, like if you’ve got a client who’s looking to get into a neighborhood, and you’re struggling with how to solve the financing problem, go to the HOA board and say, Listen, we’re trying to solve the financing here, we want to make an offer we want to live here. How have other people paid to get in here totally. And there, they can tell you, in fact, most of them, they have a vested interest in you buying in there because they want to fill their slots, they want to they want to make sure that the HOA is solvent. So they can say well, 50% of people bought with cash 50% up to 30% of people bought with a with a conventional mortgage 20% of people bought with maybe maybe with a loan from from a stock portfolio. 5% of people were land contract, you know, whatever it is, I don’t know, I don’t I don’t know the specifics. But go to these HOAs, they have all this information, they can tell you this is especially valuable in major urban centers where you have buildings that have hundreds of units. I mean, they can tell you like, in the last 10 years, the percentage of people that bought in cash were x, I mean, it is that information is available, they want you to have it because they want you to buy in there. So they’re not going to tell you that the guy in two J, you know, bought in cash, but they can tell you X percentage of transactions that occurred in the last 10 years have been in cash or have been in traditional mortgages. So there are there are means to to get this information, you just have to figure out who is actualizing that information and go right to the source. I D.J. Paris 33:32 love that. Well, I think that’s a great place to wrap up. So for those of us that have HOA opportunities, reach out to the HOA and say, Hey, we’re we would love to know what creative solutions people have used to to, you know, secure their, their their transaction. You know, how have people done this? Are there any lenders that you’ve seen time and time again come through the HOA that people seem to be satisfied with and maybe a unique way, the This happened in my own building, when when we were buying there was one lender who just seem to get things done in a really super creative way that other lenders couldn’t and talk. It happened among a lot of the people who were buying, we were all chatting with each other, which was very unusual. But we were all talking about it because we were all experiencing this one issue and somebody says oh, I’ve got the person. And we all kind of went to that person. And there’s you know, that person got a lot of business, but it was because they had a creative solution. So yeah, I think that’s a wonderful idea. Well, Chris, I think this is a great place to sort of wrap up for today. I know we could keep talking and I know there’s a lot more I certainly want to talk about. And I know this is near and dear to your heart in our next conversation about sort of vulnerability with with data, cyber attacks stuff. We know MLS is of uncompromised, and we know that that also the you know the real estate industry at least The National Association of Realtors and everything underneath it has struggled to keep up with with tech. And so we know there’s a lot of vulnerability there that we should probably talk about and how agents can sort of prepare for some, you know, some of that disruption because it enters that already it has already happened. But yeah, we will we will keep that for our next conversation along with anything else by the way. It please follow Chris on LinkedIn and anywhere else that he is posting on social we will have links because he posts a lot of these unpopular opinions. And if you disagree, and you have a differing viewpoint, please let Chris know and we will bring that up on our show. So I will be monitoring this stuff as well. So please follow Chris crystallin cell li n s e LL, again, links to his social will be in our our show notes. And please follow him on his website. crystallin sell.com. He is a sought after speaker he travels all over the country all year round speaking at conferences, all specifically real estate related and he is the guy to to talk about when it comes to predictions. He is tapped every year, for the last many years for National Association of REALTORS to talk about predictions. This is the guy so please reach out to him. He loves to speak to your association, maybe even your brokerage crystallin cell.com is where you can find and reach out him directly. Again, also follow him on social Chris, great to see you again. And we will we’ll be doing this every month this year. So see everybody on the next episode. A thank you to all of our listeners I wanted to I can’t remember if I said this at the beginning of the episode or if I said this just to Chris. But we had our biggest month ever in December sorry if this is I said this twice. But that was incredible to us. So thank you to everyone who has been following us and supporting us. Thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to Chris, who selflessly comes on here every single month, and of course to the audience who continues to tell a friend about our show. All right, I will see everybody on the next episode. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Chris Linsell 37:02 guys. Talk to you soon.