Why You Need To Get Trained In Negotiation Strategy • Eirik Gislason

Eirik Gislason a Lic. RE Associate Broker at Brown Harris Stevens and MCNE Instructor, Real Estate Negotiation Institute, shares his 16 years experience as an Associate Broker, Trainer, Mentor, Coach, Manager, and Director of Sales. Erik discusses the importance of negotiation training for agents. Next, Eirik emphasizes that agents must know the core values of their clients get to know them very well. Last, Eirik discusses the importance of identifying your client’s needs to make better connections. If you’d prefer to watch this interview, click here to view on YouTube! Eirik Gislason can be reached at 917-558-3992 and egislason@bhsusa.com . This episode is brought to you by Real Geeks . Transcript D.J. Paris 0:00 Do you know that less than 1% of practicing agents have taken a course on how to negotiate effectively? Let’s get you into that 1% Today, stay tuned. This episode of Keeping it real is brought to you by real geeks. How many homes are you going to sell this year? 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And now on to our show. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Keeping it real the largest podcast made by real estate agents. And for real estate agents. My name is DJ Paris, I am your guide and host through the show. And in just a moment, we’re going to be speaking with top 1% producer and master trainer Eric David Gislason. Before we get to Eric, just a couple of quick reminders guys, best way you can help us at our show, if we’re helping you is by a couple of ways. Tell a friend think of one other realtor that could benefit like today’s topic is a lot about negotiation. And so we’re going to this is a topic everybody needs to be aware of. So send this over to other agents in your office, we would appreciate it and the second way to support our show is by supporting our sponsors. We have the greatest sponsors in the world. They pay the bills for all of us. So please check out their products and services. I promise you every sponsor we have on our show has been thoroughly vetted. They are the real deal and I wouldn’t put anyone in front of you that wasn’t going to help your business. So check them out, please. Thank you. Thank you. Alright guys, let’s get to the main event, my conversation with Eric Gislason. Today on our show, we have Eric Davey Gislason with Brown Harris Stevens in New York City. Let me tell you more about Eric. Now Eric Davy gets listen is a master certified negotiation expert. He’s also a national instructor for the real estate negotiation Institute and founder of archway partners coaching. In addition, he’s a practicing associate real estate broker at Brown Harris Stevens with 17 years of experience in residential real estate as an agent, manager, trainer and director of sales. Eric is a well known speaker, panelist podcast guest and contributor on the subject of collaborative negotiation, value proposition and persuasion. He authors the blogs, unreal estate, and growing the pie and you can follow and subscribe. At Eric the expert, which is on all the social channels in particular YouTube and Instagram. We will have links to that in the show notes. But to see his video content on social media Eric is also originally from Minnesota and lives in Queens, New York City I will actually be coming to Queens in a month, maybe I’ll ask for some sort of advice for I go to the US Open and with his wife and two daughters. By the way notable award winner he is the world’s best dad 2012 through 2015 skipped a year but in 2017 wanted again skipped another year in 2018. But he was back to win it in 2019 through present day, please I’m gonna give you a couple of things to follow Eric on all of these things are really cool and interesting. So please listen, we will have links to all of what I’m about to say in the show notes. But what go to his coaching company for realtors, which is called archway partners inc.com Also, if you’re interested and you should be to become a certified negotiation expert, go to the regni.com That’s th e r e n i and you’ll see all the classes that you can attend there and then again follow him on Instagram and YouTube. Eric the expert which is e i r i k th e expert at YouTube, Instagram and everywhere else and we will have links to all of that so you don’t have to remember how to spell Eric in the show notes Eric, welcome to the show. Eirik Gislason 4:59 Hey, TJ, thank you so much. Thank you for all of the plugs. And it’s a pleasure to be here. I am looking forward to our conversation. So thanks for having me. D.J. Paris 5:08 I am looking forward to it as well. I would like to start, I guess, at the start. So I do that with with almost all of our guests. But I am really interested, especially with somebody who’s been in real estate for almost 20 years now. How did you get in and why? Eirik Gislason 5:25 Well, I love telling the story. And many, like many of your guests as I listened to your podcast, you know, there’s, it seems like we all have these strange ways of finding real estate, you know, it’s not something that seems like is the beginning of our path as we grow up and go through school and into college. So I actually moved to New York City to be an actor back in 1998, after graduating from college and starting a theatre company in, in in Minneapolis before moving to New York. So I had dreams of becoming an actor. I was an actor in New York for about 10 years, I did the tour thing, and I did regional theater, and commercials and voiceover work. And then I met my wife. And we’re doing a regional theater job in Roanoke, Virginia. She was a dancer, I was a character actor and a singer. And, and shortly after that, I think I realized that the theater world gave me what it was going to give me. And when I found my wife, and I and I needed to make a change. I was not a successful actor, I was not making a great living doing it. And so shortly after getting married, I was recovering from an from a knee injury from knee surgery. And I was temping I was I couldn’t work in restaurants anymore. Because of my knee. I was not acting. And I met somebody who was at a temp job. But it was also taking phone calls for real estate. And he’s the first person that actually gave me a real kind of behind the scenes or, you know, under the hood, look at what real estate was. Without sugarcoating it without making it into this fantasy. And he said, Look, you see I’m here at this temp job, because sometimes you know, the money is flowing. And sometimes it’s not, I’m trying to go to law school. And so you do what you have to do. But here are the skills required. And here’s what will make a good real estate professional. And I left that temp job thinking, I think this is something I would be good at. And so the next week I signed up for pre licensing in New York, the pre licensing process is ridiculously easy. It’s a little bit harder now than it was but it was a couple $100.45 hours worth of course of classroom work and then taking your tests. So two weeks later, there I am, I’m a licensed real estate professional looking for for a brokerage. And I was lucky enough to align myself with a company, a small company that was really good at helping generate and acquire leads for their agents. So I didn’t have to do the whole Craigslist thing getting my own leads. And I was able to hone my craft working with a lot of clients because I was given opportunities I was given at bats, as we say. And so I spent 10 years at that company, 10 years at that firm before then leaping and and going back into brokerage after being a director of sales and development for five years. So I grew that firm. They were a small firm, and I grew that firm in management and then went back into the field as an agent. And then shortly after that, I was introduced to the real estate negotiation Institute. So I 10 years of experience in the business. And I took a continuing education course on collaborative negotiation through this company, the real estate negotiation Institute, and I left that class completely blown away blown away by the content blown away by these the style of the teaching blown away by everything and I shortly thereafter contacted Tom Haman who’s the founder and CEO of the real estate negotiation Institute and said I think I need to coach for you I think I need to be an instructor. So I so that started my journey being a master certified negotiation expert and a national instructor for the real estate negotiation Institute, which I’ve been doing now for almost eight years while also having a full time real estate practice at Brown Harris Stevens. D.J. Paris 9:30 Wow. And we should mention too that you have a coaching company for real estate agents archway partners, Inc. Tell us tell us a little bit about that. Eirik Gislason 9:39 Well, it’s interesting Mike I was doing when I teach my courses, my my negotiation courses, I always inevitably have a few agents who want some additional coaching Who wants some additional help. And what I started doing was doing more mentorship, consulting, I called it coaching and it wasn’t and it wasn’t until I went on the journey of actually going through a coaching program, I went through a program that coach you for for several months, and then got my own mentor coach, so that I could really learn what it is to coach what it is to walk alongside someone support them, and and be more of an accountability partner and a support for them in their journey. What is it that they want to achieve? What is it that they want to do with their real estate career? What are your core values? Where have you been? Where are you in? Where do you want to go? And when I really started to understand my role as a coach, it became this beautiful marriage because what we talk about in in the certified negotiation, expert designation courses, is this idea of value proposition, right, the cost benefit analysis, and what are your benefits? How do you develop that value proposition? How do you understand what you have to offer? Any decision maker, any purchaser? Any landlord? Right? So that’s our jumping off point. That’s our tangent point, the value proposition. And when we look at that through a coaching lens, there are so many places we can go with that when we understand who we are, when we understand what we offer, and then how do we tailor that to each and every client. So that’s where archway partners that you know, the idea of the of the archway the doorway and walking through to new possibilities came from and now I’ve had my coaching company for about 18 months now. D.J. Paris 11:29 That’s an incredible congratulations on that I was I was thinking if I were an agent in New York City, one of the it really anywhere, but specifically because you practice in New York City. And I want to talk about what the benefits are to becoming a certified negotiation expert, and why collaborative cooperation is really a sorry, collaborative. I apologize for the the term that you use that I wouldn’t Eirik Gislason 11:55 get cooperation. It’s fits right in there. So yeah, D.J. Paris 11:58 I was thinking a couple of things I want to talk about with that. Because you’ve sort of sparked something that I hadn’t thought of before. But I do want to mention before I get too in depth that I always forget to mention this. But if you are an agent in the New York area in New York City, in particular, Eric’s team is always looking for talented agents to you know, add value and where they can add value to you. So I was thinking as you were talking, if I was looking for, for a team, one of the things that agents I think these these days, just behind the scenes for a lot of people, if you’re not sort of even haven’t figured this out, yet working as an agent, a lot of times the managing brokers of firms are have a lot of responsibilities, they have to recruit talent, they have to retain talent, they have to do all the operations and the compliance, and they have to also coach and train. So over the years, what managing brokers have kind of figured out is we have some really great teams, sometimes the teams can help take over some of those responsibilities, specifically, around training and coaching, right make sense. And Eric is a professional Coach and Trainer and a certified negotiation master trainer. So if I were an agent, and I was like, I’m not quite getting the love and training and support that I need in my existing firm, I would be reaching out. So definitely reach out to him again, easiest way is just find him online. You can find them at Eric the agent, again, that’s EIR ik the agent level I’m sorry, Eric, the expert rather, Eric, the expert, Instagram, YouTube, etc, we’ll have links to that if you are thinking this is the year for a lot of agents are moving. So I’d be remiss if I forgot to mention that. But here’s what I really wanted to thank you for your welcome. Here’s what I really wanted to ask you while you were talking about collaborative, this sort of collaborative training. You know, I was thinking, as you go into negotiations or when you go into a deal, I would think that the vast majority of agents who haven’t been trained on value proposition, are probably just thinking about their own wants and needs and thinking how do we get what we want? Without thinking as you were saying, sort of understanding the holistic deal? What is the other side want? What are their motivations? What are they willing to just sort of negotiate and bend on? And I think that is such a an important skill that really isn’t hardly taught anywhere. Eirik Gislason 14:16 It’s so true, it is so true. And one of the things that drew me to the real estate negotiation Institute and this content is exactly what you just said, this is not something that we are taught in pre licensing. Some people bring it from their earlier career if they’re if, if, if a real estate is a is a second career for them, but it’s not something that we’re taught and, and frankly, to your point a lot of managing directors and office managers and sales directors and I was a sales director for a long time. You’re so involved with so many things within each and every deal that it’s hard to sit down and have time to really get deep and train on negotiation and buyer psychology and This idea of understanding the other side’s needs, not that you’re going to guarantee them anything, not that you can guarantee them anything. But when we when we integrate the other side’s needs into our strategy. This is what Tom Heyman calls, he calls it the enlightened self interest, when when I know what the other side wants, and I do my best to incorporate their needs their value elements into trades into exchanges in the deal, I can actually grow a bigger pie. And that’s the reason my one of my two blogs is called growing the pie. Because we’re not talking about just a fixed pile of value. When we’re talking about a real estate transaction, everybody values things differently. And if I can identify what the other side wants and needs, and identify ways to exchange things of lesser value to me, to get things of greater value to me from the other side and do that strategically, I can actually make that pie bigger. And I can and I’m not, you know, I want the other side to be adequately satisfied, I don’t need them to get you know, it’s not kumbaya by the fire, right, this is not split the pie 5050 I want them to be adequately satisfied. So I don’t deal with the retribution or the entrenchment, the things that come along with putting someone on their heels or rubbing their nose in the dirt or whatever the the imagery is, I need to adequately satisfy them. And when I do that, I can actually create more value on my side of the transaction and get more than I would if I were just trying to split that fixed pie. Yeah, D.J. Paris 16:32 I agree. And that’s a skill set. And it isn’t necessarily something that we all just can instinctively or inherently know ourselves. It’s something there are in I studied DBT dialectical behavior therapy, and there’s one of their modules is called interpersonal effectiveness, which is like, Okay, what does that really mean? It’s about having difficult conversations with people. In real estate, we oftentimes have to have difficult conversations, and it’s about how to meet both people’s needs. But first, you have to understand their needs. And I was thinking, an example that I’m curious to get your thoughts on would would be, I have a buyer, we’re putting in a contract, maybe there’s a multiple offer situation, and I’m just thinking, well, highest and best is going to win, which maybe most of the time is true, but not always, of course, and knowing what the other side’s motivations are knowing what they want from a buyer, and maybe it’s just highest and best. Or maybe it’s we put a lot of work into this house, we sort of want the next family that comes in to sort of understand and appreciate and respect what we’ve done, because we want to we want to sort of create a little bit of a legacy here, even with our existing, you know, work that we did with the home. So I guess, would that be considered out of understanding? Eirik Gislason 17:44 I absolutely. And and I’m you know, this is, this is such a part of who we are as human beings. And we forget it sometimes as real estate professionals, because we put everything into downpayment timeline. And, and highest price, when that is not how every human being thinks in fact, we it’s not like, you know, let’s say that you are in a highest and best and it’s a million dollar property. And you’ve got a few buyers who are above the asking price at 1.1. But let’s say that you are at 1.08 or $20,000 off of the highest bidder. But you have made some sort of an appeal that is not price related or downpayment related that that that is that is important to or that lands with that seller. It’s not that they’re giving up $1.1 million. They’re making a trade on $20,000. And the question is, what is that thing, that connection, the fact that somebody is going to come in and take care of that home the way that they took care of that home? Right? What is what is that one thing or that as Chris Voss for never split the difference? That he calls those black swans? Right? What is that black swan? If there’s something that I can find out by being ceaselessly curious, by asking questions of the other side, that gives me a window into what they really want, and what they really value, then they they might be happy to give up $20,000 To satisfy that need that value element that’s important to them. So we often mistake this idea that, that, you know, the price is the only thing that matters. Or if I’m not 100% If I’m not all cash, I can’t compete. It’s just not true, if we can understand if we can start with the other side, and uncover those black swans understand those value elements. So that’s a great example. D.J. Paris 19:43 Well, thank you and I was it’s just the first thing that came to mind but I was thinking, you know, your, your sort of further example of, you know, being $20,000 under highest and best and still possibly winning the deal. It’s really an important thing because most times the other side isn’t going to be would go out and spend that 20,000 is cash, it’s probably just going into the next property. And you know, odds are, there may even be a mortgage on the file on the next property. So that’s just all going in to, you know, an extra 50 bucks a month or something. And in payment, it’s it’s kind of a really a nothing, if it’s only looked at as highest and best and yeah, maybe that’s maybe that that will make the difference. But understanding that, you know, yeah, we’re coming in a little bit under, but I sort of have an idea of what the owner wants, and, you know, and being able to meet their needs in a different way, and still get your clients a little bit less than, than maybe, you know, what, what everyone else would have paid, I love I love all of us. Again, to me, these are all skills, and we are not taught about these in high school. I didn’t learn them in college, I did study persuasion, and understanding rapport and understanding how to, you know, how to listen, and how to, you know, sort of extract information, you know, in an elegant way from the people I’m chatting with. So I would I would love to, but actually before, before we go any further I would, because you are a coach, you lead a team, you’re also practicing yourself, and you teach at a national level. This is a tough year for realtors, I did meet somebody last night at a party, one of the top agents here in Chicago, who said he’s up 50%. And he’s the only person I know, everyone else’s is pretty much struggling who’s been in the business long enough. And we were laughing and he’s like, Yeah, I know, everyone hates me, because, you know, they, they everyone else is down. But but it is a tough year, I think for a lot of us, and rates are up inventory is down. I know in New York, it’s really tough with inventory. So what what are you doing to keep? Or what are you telling your students as well as your teammates to sort of keep them motivated? And and you know, moving forward, when it’s so easy to just to kind of go like, Ah, this is just hard right now? Eirik Gislason 21:49 Yeah, I really do believe that we have to have these conversations with ourselves about how are we going to move from where we are right now to a market that we know is going to get better? Right? So first thing is to understand that this where we are right now is temporary. The question is, can you last? Through that time? Is that an easy thing for you? Or is that a hard thing for you? Are you on your last dollar and and not earning a living for another three months? If you’re not doing deals? Is that going to crush you? If it is, then let’s either put a plan together so that you can find a different way to maneuver through this industry? Are you know, are you? Are you doing rental deals rather than sales deals? Are you working on the sell side versus the buy side? Right? Are there things that we can do to help you on a different path than you’re on right now? Right? And then there are other agents who are like, Yeah, I know, I’m gonna survive this. It’s not an issue, whether we’re going to survive this. It’s a matter of how long this is going to be. And what do I do in the meantime? And so what I tell agents is, first of all, there is and this is a almost cliche, because so many people are saying it, but it’s absolutely true. This idea that this is a skills based market, right, I’ve, you know, I’ve been listening to some of your other podcasts, and we’re, you know, you’re talking about that, you know, the people running through to 2021, and part of 2022, you know, you could just throw a, you know, a sign in the yard, and you’ve got 30 people making offers, right, it was a market that did not require as much skilled, certainly required skill, but didn’t require as much skill as the market that we’re in now, right now, not only are you competing to get that next listing and find that next buyer, if you’re on the listing side, but you’re competing with a smaller amount of business, and agents all fighting for that business. So how are you going to get a bigger piece? To your point, this agent who’s up 50%? How do you get a bigger piece of a shrinking pie? And that’s where you need to really focus your energy, in my opinion, is if you if you go through, you’ve already figured out look this this in this industry right now where we are, it’s not going to kill me, it’s not going to take me down. So I know that I can make it through it. Now the question is, what do you do with this time, and if you can focus on getting a bigger slice of that shrinking pie, that’s, that’s going to give you a goal to actually maneuver towards or move towards. So you start doing things like understanding in a in a more deep and, and and higher level way. You’re the idea of negotiation of buyer psychology of actually going into those pitches. And instead of getting one out of three, or one out of two, you’re getting every one, how are you going to increase your odds of getting each deal? How are you going to build loyalty with each and every buyer, so that they end up being a deal rather than losing buyers here and there as you might be accustomed to doing? So how do you maximize the business that you do have and make sure that you win? Each and every time right this go and this goes back to the highest and best two, there are going to still be highest and best. But if you’re more prepared, or if you’re if you can prepare your buyers better, you’re going to find yourself on the winning side of that highest and best more often than on the losing side. And my one of my old bosses used to call the spilling milk, right? We, when we’re busy, we have a lot going on. And we’re just trying to keep every keep everything you know, in our hands. As we run forward, we have spilling milk left and right, but we don’t really care about the milk that spills because by the end of the time, we’re stopped running, we still have enough milk to drink, right, we’re just constantly going going going well, in a market that we’re in right now, we don’t want to spill milk, we want to make sure that we have as much milk there, maybe less milk in the glass to begin with. So we don’t want to lose more milk. And we can end that same journey with the same amount of milk, we just haven’t spilled a lot of it. And that’s what that’s what I usually teach people in this market is look, let’s figure out how you’re going to make it to the next level, because there will be another great market on the other side of this. But we do need to enhance our skills, and create an environment where we win more often. D.J. Paris 26:07 I agree, and I think this is the time to really focus on skill based activities, because number one, most agents have a little bit more time to spend with sharpening their their skill set their tools. And also this is a time where human nature for the most for the majority of us and I’m in the same category. So I’m not saying that this is a negative, it’s just human nature is to want to when things aren’t as well maybe retreat a little bit and and, you know, do less activity because maybe we’re a little bummed out or or we’re so this is the these are the times where you might have to force yourself to do a little bit more activity. But understanding that you’re really doing your future self a huge favor by doing things today, and most agents are not most agents, I don’t know what percentage of agents have have reduced their activity. But you know, I just know that when when things are tough, you know, it’s easier to not go into action. And so this is the time to get an accountability partner, get a coach, you know, and really work on those skills and those habits so that you know what you’re doing today, a year, a year and a half from now will start to yield fruit or however long, you know, the the sales cycle is. And but yeah, Eirik Gislason 27:20 to add to that, you know, I think that oftentimes, when we when we do find ourselves here, we’re We’re retreating, like you said, and we’re doing a little bit less a little bit less work than we know that we should be doing at the time. Sometimes the reaction to that from a lot of coaches in our industry or a lot of managers is to tell you the things that you need to do. And oftentimes, they highlight the things that you are least likely to want to do, right. So they basically say, these are the things you’re not doing. And this is why you’re not not successful. So you got to get out there and do all those things that you don’t like to do, because that’s the way that you’re going to break the cycle. Where I you know, certainly we have to do things that we don’t want to do, especially if we’re sitting on a couch, and we find ourselves not working as hard as we should be working. But my approach is a little different. I want to identify the things that you love to do. And you may have found that your real estate career for two years, you’re running around like a chicken with your head cut off. So you’re just trying to just get to the next place and do the next deal. And you forget about what you love about this business, what you love about people what you love about your knowledge, what you know, all the things that make this an attractive business. So my approach is to sit down and say let’s start with the things that you love, and do a lot more of that. So I’d rather you do 100% more of something that you love, than struggle to do 25% more of something you don’t like, and it doesn’t have to be Yeah, I want D.J. Paris 28:56 to pause here for a second because that is such a wise, a wise wise statement doing more about what you especially when you’re you’re in a more difficult position. Like we know a lot of agents are this year. Yes, we know it. We know it’s a little bit of a bummer right now. And it’s easy to retreat. So what we call it and DBT stalking positives, do the things that you already liked to do. And here’s why. And I’m not I’m not trying to tell teach Eric anything, obviously here. But well, the only reason I’m mentioning is I was just I just learned this so Gallup the people who do lots of polling there big polling companies, a lot of people know they have this strength and weakness finder, and we had a professor from from Northwestern come in who’s trained. And she assessed our strengths and weaknesses. And I think there was 38 of them. And she goes whatever you were your bottom five are, don’t even try to improve those because she’s like, the data is really, really clear that you can’t, you can’t It’s not how you’re wired. It’s really you maybe can make them incrementally better. But like for example her most her biggest weakness was empathy. And she goes, it’s kind of funny, I wish I wasn’t empathic. I’m just not, it’s how I’m built. So I don’t try to pretend that I’m empathic I, I tried to focus on all the other positives, things that I do have a strike, she goes, so if you come to me for empathy, you’re probably not going to get what you need. We but she goes, my partner happens is very high in empathy. And so she sort of balances, her wife balances it out. But the point is, is know what your strengths are, know what you like to do, because you’re right, it’s much easier to get into action with the things that you want to do and you like doing and then you can build from there. Eirik Gislason 30:34 Exactly. You know, it’s funny, the StrengthsFinder, the Gallup strengths, their system, my brother and I are building online content for my coaching company. And he’s a certified Gallup strength. Oh, D.J. Paris 30:48 that’s funny. Oh, what a small world. Yeah, Eirik Gislason 30:51 the great, it’s a great assessment. And they’re right on, I mean, this idea of, of not doing the things that you don’t excel at, but understanding, and this is great for interpersonal relationships, too, as well. You’re right. I mean, when you when you are a manager, or a coach, or a team leader, or just an agent, having interactions with clients, when you can look across and identify when you know what your strengths are. And you can start to identify potential strengths or strengths that the other side has, then you start making connections. Or if they have different sets of strengths, you then can understand why, you know, if you’ve got somebody who’s low on empathy, or empathy is one of their lowest strengths, you can start to understand then why or how you need to communicate with them in order to have a more successful relationship, rather than always butting heads because your strengths are completely different. D.J. Paris 31:43 Yeah, it makes sense. And also, like you were saying, assessing the other person, especially like, during presentations, you talked about buyer and seller presentations. And I think so many of us think about first, okay, we got to learn a script, we got to know what we’re going to do when we get there. And we’re probably, realistically, we’re probably doing the same kind of pitch, every single time because we we’ve committed to memory, we’ve done it hundreds of times, maybe if we’ve been in the business long enough, and it has a certain success level. And we’re like, Hey, I do close one out of every three listing presentations, I do. But if you’re doing the same exact listing presentation each time, there’s probably a missed opportunity there to get some feedback from the person on the other side of the table, and then adjust your your, your strategy to better meet that person’s needs, which probably means not doing the same presentation in exact same way every single time. Eirik Gislason 32:38 100%. And this, I actually have a course that I teach throughout my archway partners called the decision makers. And it’s all about so going back to the first thing we talked about, which is starting with the other side, identifying the other side’s needs, what Who are they right? So when we do a value proposition, we have to separate that make a huge distinction between what value proposition is and what a pitch is, right? We do a listings pitch, we call it a listing pitch, it’s really a value proposition. The pitch is something you given an elevator, it’s generic, it could be to anybody, right? It’s that thing that sells your product or service the best? Whereas a value proposition is something a little bit or vastly different in that value proposition must be in order for it to be at its its most effective, it must be tailored to the decision maker to whom you are pitching. So are they an assertive driver? Are they a collaborative feeler? Are they an expressive humanist? Are they an analytic thinker? What type of buyer is this? Or decision maker? Is this? And how are they best influenced? Right? Are they data driven? Do they love stories? And this is a huge aha I think for any negotiator is that when you go in and you you’ve tailored that pitch, you know exactly what you’re gonna say when you’re gonna say it. It’s basically a script, you’re forgetting the most important part who the client is. Right? Who are they. And when you if you can hone that skill of identifying different buyer types or different as I call them decision maker types, you are going to find these, all of these new doors open up and now you have this menu of benefits. And just like looking at a menu in a in a restaurant, you can start to pick the five the six benefits that convey the most utility to that specific decision maker. And you will find that your hit rate, your success rate is off the charts because now you’re the person across the table feels like you’re speaking directly to them and you’ve got a window into their heart, their mind, their soul, whatever. You know, you’re just so much more impactful and persuasive. When you know who you’re who it is that you’re dealing with D.J. Paris 34:58 it and it’s more are intimate. And when I mean intimate I mean connecting, because you have taken feedback from the other person, you are then processing that yourself and making adjustments to fit that person’s worldview, their beliefs, etc. They’re their values. And and I think, you know, if we think about this, because I hear Realtors talk about this all the time, which is I don’t like selling to a certain type of individual, I don’t like selling to an analytic person, because all they want is the numbers. It’s not emotional. Other people love it. My point is, is what if you could learn how to speak their language, you’d, you maybe you’d enjoy working with those agents or those clients more, but more importantly, maybe you just be more effective at it, which means you’d close more deals, whether you like it or not, you’re still going to come across people who aren’t have the same sort of way they process information and make decisions like you were saying the decision making sort of understanding the decision makers and the strategies. And then it wouldn’t it be cool to go into a listing presentation or buyer presentation, having like five or six different styles of pitches, and then knowing Oh, this is this kind of person, I think I’m going to push the conversation more towards this because I know that this tends to sort of, you know, tickle the ivories of that particular, you know, thought process of that individual. That is incredible power as opposed to just, Oh, it’s another one these analytics people, I don’t know how to do this. Eirik Gislason 36:23 100% your absolute right. And, and, and coaching, we call that flexing right? So I can flex my approach to meet that person where they are. It’s not they’re not being a jerk. You know, whatever label we put on them, they’re a jerk. They’re irrational. They’re, they’re, they’re crazy, you know, we put all of these labels on people, because we don’t know how to connect. So what you’re saying is absolutely right, if we can flex our approach and go, Okay, this is an assertive driver, they don’t want to have a personal relationship with me, they’re not going to ask me about my family, and my kids and where I went to college, if they do ask me where I went to college, it’s going to be to that whether they believe the college that I went to, is suitable for their needs, right. And if I can, if I understand that about them, it’s they’re not mean, they come off as your typical negotiator, very competitive negotiator. But they are in the everybody acts in their own interests. And their interest is to hire the person that they believe is going to do the best possible job for them. They don’t want a shrinking violet. They don’t want somebody who’s going to wind around telling stories or or use puffery or BS them on, on on the answer to a question they don’t know. They want you to be direct. They’d rather you say, You know what? That’s a great question. I don’t know the answer, or? That’s a great question. I know that you’re going to want specifics, you’re going to want details. I understand that. So before I answer the question, let me get you the specifics and the details that I know that you want. So that I can give you an answer that’s going to be that’s going to satisfy your needs. Imagine, if our agent said that to us, we’re a buyer or seller, and we’re an analytic. And our agent said that to us, it would be like music to our ears. And now all of a sudden, that trust component is going through the roof, when you didn’t think you could build trust with that person at all, you don’t think they will trust anybody. And now all of a sudden, you’ve connected with them on their level. And so now they start to that that trust factor starts to go up and up and up, and you change the relationship. D.J. Paris 38:32 Yeah, you just gave such a really specific, really excellent example, in my opinion, because this idea of like, you’re just using analytic people is, you know, saying to them, Hey, I understand you process information this particular way. I know you like a lot of information that’s important for you to make a decision. Therefore, I need to go back and put together this information in a way that’s exactly how you want to see it. So you can then take it digest it. And people who are analytic understand that putting that data together takes time. So it actually gives you on the other side of the deal, a lot less pressure to come up with the answer right then and there, which probably isn’t going to be sufficient to satisfy their curiosity. Because unless you’re just an encyclopedia of information, and you’re able to present it in the way that they want, but probably they want to look at something they probably want to hold a hold or at least look on a screen and see that you’ve put some work in so they can be like this person speaks my language. It’s actually brilliant because it’s a win win for everybody. It’s it gets lets you off the hook a little bit to feel like oh, God, I don’t know the answer right now you’re going to, you know, and you’re going to say it to them in a way which most of the time they’re going to go hey, that makes sense. Just get it to me in the next you know, day or two and that would be you know, all digestive Eirik Gislason 39:45 100% a dj you said like the thing you said about there, they’ll want the time to go through the data, the research that you prepare, and this is where those these these moments where we understand that there’s a different way of doing things come from, right. So if we are the kind of person we’re like, well, I want to get, I feel like I need to get everything to them immediately right now. So if I say, I’m going to take some time, I’m afraid they’re going to be upset with me, well, if you really understand an analytic thinker, then you will know that they’re very slow to make decisions. Once they make a decision, they commit to it, and they’re full bore. But they want to take that extra time. In fact, what I say to people who take my decision makers class, when we’re talking about how to influence a an analytic thinker, you say you if you’re, if you’re going to meet with them at noon, don’t met, don’t plan a 2pm meeting, if you’re going to meet with them at three, ask them if they want to go out to dinner, after your three hour meeting, don’t plan something an hour after you have a meeting with an analytic thinker, because you are going to end up in the last 15 minutes of that meeting, whether it’s an hour later, or two hours later, going, oh my god, how am I gonna get to my next appointment, you’re gonna start to rush them sites, you know, subconsciously, because you’re rushed. And then you ruin ruin all the relationship building and all the trust that you’ve been building for two hours goes out the window, because you got to get out the door to another appointment. So if you’re going to meet with an analytic thinker, set the entire morning aside, or set the entire afternoon aside, they may not need it. But you’re not going to ever feel like you are rushing them to a decision. And to your point that with the data, they will accept the fact that you need time to put together the data and the research and the way that they want to view it and the way they want to consume it. And if they believe that we’re on a tighter timeline, they will let you know. D.J. Paris 41:34 Absolutely. And these are these are things that again, we know our own worldview, we know our own processes for making this oil. Some of us know and others of us maybe aren’t aren’t as clued into our own ways in which we we make decisions. But this is really a skill set and a knowledge set that you need to consider adding, because it’s only going to make every interaction you have with a client or the other side of a transaction go hopefully more smoothly, because you’re going to be able to identify, there’s key identifiers in the way people speak in the way they reveal themselves to you, which sometimes is conscious versus unconscious. There’s, there’s lots of cues that somebody who is trained on how to identify these cues, verbal cues, nonverbal cues, that we can actually start to paint a picture, maybe without the person even necessarily being fully aware that we’re putting them in a category, we’re doing it because that’s that’s how human beings cloud, classify things. But it’s how we make it’s how we can make adjustments and say, oh, this person is starting to fall into this category, I’m getting a better sense of what they may want to see or hear. So all of this is it’s all skills. And these are things that I can almost assure you, you probably haven’t been taught unless you have sought it out on your own. And so this is a great point to to remind everyone who’s listening, if you’re an agent in the New York area, and you’re looking for a team with this kind of information that they can impart to you, or if you’re an agent from anywhere in the country that’s looking to get some coaching. Eric would love the opportunity to speak with you as coaching companies archway partners, Inc. And of course, his his team over at Brown Harris Stevens is always looking for agents in the area to possibly join up on the team as well. So please check those two places out. Eric, I wanted to ask you to about what what do you what were there now actors are taught how to do this I in your backgrounds and acting? So I know there’s you know, there’s different styles, or different philosophies of of acting. There’s sort of the Strausberg I only know a couple I’m not an actor, but there’s the Strasburg method. There’s there’s method acting, I think that’s Rosberg, but there’s Buddha Haagen, there’s, there’s a few of them, that Eirik Gislason 43:50 there’s some good poles right here. D.J. Paris 43:54 Yeah, well, I my knowledge is, is, is very shallow. So I know. That’s it. That’s all I know, I don’t know how to do any of it. But but this is important, because I was listening to some actress talking about how they really pay a lot of attention to the other actors in the scene, to then get cues on how to then react, what to do with their hands, what just how to sort of be in the scene, but really sort of memorizing their own lines, if they have them to then forget them so that they can be present for whatever’s going on in the scene and understanding that there’s an interpersonal play between the actors who are, you know, not just reciting lines and walking here and there when they’re supposed to? Eirik Gislason 44:36 Yeah, absolutely. I don’t know. Keep in mind, I’m a real estate agent. So you may not want to trust my acting advice, because it didn’t work out so well for me, but no, you’re absolutely right. You know, we always say acting is reacting, right? And this is the same thing. This is one of the skills I think, why you see a lot of actors who who end up in the real estate world, because one of the attributes one of this skills they bring to this career is being able to read people are being able to react to people in a moment. And that’s there is a skill to that. So certainly I think that, you know, one of my, one of my junior agents on my team runs a, a women’s improv company, this woman is so so she, she spent a many, many years she was an actress and a singer. And now she runs an improv company. Well, her this idea of She Loves role playing. So when we are when we’re talking, and we’re working through a situation is working with a, with a client, and she’s looking for some advice, I will present some options for her some ideas, you know, for her and say, What do you think, what would you do? And so we’ll work through that. And then what you’ll always want to do, after we’ve settled on what we think the next move is, she’ll say, Okay, let me workshop this with you. And then she’ll go, and she’ll tell me how she’s going to say it, when she gets on the phone or in person with the client or the CO broker, or whoever it is. So she’s constantly role playing so that it sets it sits and it sinks in for her. So there and a lot of people, I would say that, you know, I’m a big fan of role playing in my in my negotiation courses, we end this certified negotiation expert, the core concepts course, with a with a big roleplay we roleplay a deal, right, I got buyer’s agents and listing agents, they get there all the the backstory of their client, they know the the subject property specifics and all the comps. And we have them negotiate a deal. And it’s, it’s how we culminate all of this. It’s the culmination of all of the learning in this course. So I’m a big fan of role playing. But if you if you are someone who knows an actor in real estate, or who is hung out with an actor, if you can use them as a roleplay partner, get out of your comfort zone. And this is when we talked about the at bats, right, you’re going to hit more singles, hit more home runs, hit more doubles, you’re going to hit more, if you have been practicing, before you step up to the plate, right? That is just that’s just something we all know if our prepared to have that conversation to deal with the objections, all of that stuff. And if we’re prepared when we get into a real life scenario, because we’ve been role playing, our rate of success, or our likelihood of success goes up significantly. So I would highly recommend to anybody, any of your listeners, if you’re not role playing if you don’t have an accountability partner or a manager that will help you roleplay through scenarios. Well, first of all, take my class, and then you’ll be in the whole Ready Advantage Facebook community and you can roleplay with other certified negotiation experts. But it’s a big, big help to be able to, to flex that muscle and to practice D.J. Paris 47:57 it. Yeah. And role playing to me is, you know, the really the only way I know to practice it, because it’s funny, we were just practicing. We were getting media trained at our local association here, because I serve on subcommittees and occasionally we are asked to do media, interviews and things so and I was like, Oh, I do podcasts. I don’t even know how to do this. And so they gave us some tips and some things and I went okay, I kind of know all that. And then we roleplay and I sat with a fake reporter who was at a printing I was on screen for like a TV spot. And I said, I don’t need to practice this. I got it. I know how to talk I can. I can BS my way through this and about 30 seconds. And I was like, oh my god, I did not prepare it anything at all. For this. I am out of things to say. I thought I could wing it. And I’ve done 500 of these episodes doesn’t mean I’m a good inherently a good interviewer, or good interviewee, but I certainly was like, Oh, that’s right, you got to practice. So practicing is everything. So even if you’re, as Eric is 17 years in the business, role playing is still great, because it’ll it’ll force you to do the things that you’re not very good at. and cause you to, as you said, move outside of your x, your your comfort zone. I also want to mention one other just practical as I’m a marketer. So I wanted to mention why I think the certified negotiation expert is from a marketing perspective. And from a skills based perspective, it’s an absolute win. But even if you’re just looking at it as from a marketing perspective, as far as all the designations go in, there’s lots of wonderful ones. I’m not saying one is any better than another, but I and I shouldn’t say but and I do think the certified negotiation expert designation is a very marketable one because it allows you to actually say, Hey, I’ve got this thing and only maybe 1% Of all the realtors in the country have it or whatever the percentage is. It’s not much higher than 1% I suspect. So it allows you to really differentiate yourself to arguably one of the most important skills in the game of being a real estate agent, which is of course negotiation. So being able to communicate that to a client, and say, hey, it’s something that they can understand without knowing anything about our, our industry. And so there’s just a really nice, it’s very on the nose. It’s exactly what it is. I’m a negotiation expert. And then you can actually talk about it in a way where I think it will help sort of differentiate yourself from from other other agents. Eirik Gislason 50:28 Yeah, that’s right. And you’re, it sounds like you were in you’ve been in my class, because that’s exactly how we describe it, right. And in some cases, the biggest value that some agents get out of my class, and I think there’s so many, there’s so much value in it, there’s so many things that you can, that you can take from this class, whether you’ve been an agent in the business for three decades or three months, is a class that that that is accessible for new agents, but it’s also high level for those who have been negotiating for for several years. But sometimes what my agents get out of the class is a new way to your exact point PJ, a new way to, to convey this information to their client to have the conversation to to explain how they strategize, and how they work through negotiation so that your client knows when they’re no longer in the room, when they’re no longer standing next to you, that you are going to be advocating for them that you are going to be cooperative, as you mentioned earlier, cooperative, but assertive, that you have a plan in place, and that you’re going to be able to execute on that plan. So just being able to convey your strategy to a client in a in a sound, cogent, effective way is very, very important. But but but this, I mean, this, this the see any designation, the logo is also just a door opener, right? So when they see it, it’s in your marketing materials, it’s in your auto signature, now you can have a conversation, it brings up the idea of negotiation. And now you can highlight the importance. And what studies show is, negotiation skills are more important to our clients than marketing than market analysis, it is the highest skill that we can provide our clients. Now, in practice, it’s one of the we score lower than most anything in negotiation skills in the eyes of our client. And that’s where there’s this opportunity, if you can learn this skill, if you can master this skill, you will separate yourself from, you know, to your point 98% of the agents and in this country, D.J. Paris 52:47 I think to this other thing, I was thinking as you were saying this, that why why is the negotiation part so critical. And I think obviously, it’s because it’s about money, usually. But it’s about the transaction and winning, winning the deal or earning the deal. However, I was also thinking, maybe the certified negotiation expert, sort of skill set comes really into play when a transaction gets tough, because I would assume that the vast majority of the most stressful moments the most emotionally trying parts of a transaction have got to be during the negotiation. Because there there could be a time where the deal might fall apart, or it feels like it might fall apart. The client might be freaking out going, oh my god, maybe I’m making the wrong decision. Maybe I’m giving up too much. So that’s probably a highly stressful time. Emotionally. It’s the least fun time I would think for the client, usually, unless maybe you’re on the left side. I guess maybe if you’re selling a property, maybe it’s a little bit more fun. But on the buy side, certainly it’s tough. And so I was just thinking, I bet those skills come into play to help calm everything down. As you’re going through the stressful times. Eirik Gislason 53:56 You’re right. You’re right. And we talked about the this comes out of the book Getting to Yes As William Ury and Roger Fisher, who wrote one of the seminal works in collaborative negotiation the book called Getting to Yes, and they talked about this what’s called the SAM model and you know this The S is the stand it’s where we positionally bargain, it’s where we you know, it’s no I won’t Yes, yes, we will. No, I want to it’s the stand that we all take to not be moved off of our position. We don’t want to be thrown in one direction or another. So we anchor in we put we take a stand I will not sell my apartment for less than $700,000 come hell or high water. Let’s just stand right I need to understand what the area actual area of concern is. And what is emotionally driving this, this stand. Right so that’s the S A and M the stand the area of concern and the emotional motivators the app. So you’re right. It’s about understanding people. It’s about when at when they’re at their most anxious, the most frustrated. It’s not getting caught in position. bargaining but understanding what their actual area of concern is by asking questions. And then it’s about communication and offering options. People do not like to be backed into a corner, they don’t like to feel like they’re backed into a corner, they want options. And so at the hardest moment of the deal, when you’re communicating well with your client, and you are looking at all the value elements, that could be a possible way to get successfully get the transaction done, when you’ve identified what we call it, as Harvard calls your BATNA, your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. If you have a strong BATNA, if you have a, which is Plan B, right, if you have a strong plan B, and you’re communicating, and you’re providing options, now your client feels empowered, and instead of feeling like they’re backed into a corner, or like they have no options, now you make them feel like, hey, if this doesn’t work out, it’s going to be because we didn’t meet our minimum goals. So if plan A is not going to work for us, let’s move on to Plan B, as opposed to getting into highest and best after highest and best and feeling like you’re just like a rag doll, getting thrown around, we have the power to help our clients remain resilient and empowered. And we do that by communicating with them in the hardest of times in the deal, just like you said, D.J. Paris 56:24 and having, like you said, Having options. And also you said something very, very profound that I want to make sure our audience noticed. And if not, I’m going to I’m going to step on it a little bit in a good way is have is is we there’s a skill of DBT. We call it Cobra head, I almost forgot it. And basically, if this doesn’t go the way we want, here is what we will do, and getting their buy in client buy it hey, does this make sense? You know, I’m sure you’re getting buy ins all the time. But saying, here’s what we’re going to try, here’s what we’re going to do, here’s why we think it will work. If it doesn’t, here’s another alternative that we are going here’s our plan B right. And even just having a plan B is very empowering, because all of a sudden, now, when option A doesn’t work out, no big deal, we’ve got option B. And and it’s it’s most agents, I think, I don’t know, I shouldn’t speak for any other agents. But I think a lot of agents probably don’t have a plan B, you know, when they’re putting offers in, they haven’t or if they have when maybe they haven’t effectively communicated it to the client, because they go, I don’t really want my client to think that plan a might not work. So I just gonna I’m gonna mention if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t, I’ll deal with it when it happens, that’s probably not a strong strategy. Because there are going to be times when you obviously when you don’t get what you want, and making sure that the client already knows we have another option here. That that is profound. And I am really, really glad that you said that. These are all skills. Again, this is this is a skills based conversation. And we’re focusing a lot on it because guys skills when the game the found the fundamentals win the game. So these are all things you can learn. That’s the best part, you don’t have to be good at it, you just have to be willing to practice. And Eric, you know, he can teach you in a number of different ways. If you’re an agent in New York City, consider joining his team at Brown Harris Stevens, I mean, he’ll teach it to you one on one. He also if you’re not in the New York City area, which of course most of our audience is not, he can teach you any anytime. So you can visit his website, archway partners, Inc, I’m going to have links to all of this and you can become one of his coaching clients. And also, you should consider getting your certified negotiation expert certification, which you can do at at regni. And we will have a link to the regni. website so that so that you can see when their classes are available, you can take one from Eric. But Eric, I think this is a great place to start because I could talk to you all day, and you don’t have to speak to me Eirik Gislason 58:54 now. Thank you so much DJ, this is so great. Oh, this was D.J. Paris 58:58 so much fun. For me this is I would not say that I have necessarily the skills you’re talking about. However, I appreciate that those are skills that any one of us can learn. And we should consider learning those. And these are the soft skills that really can can win the game, push the ball over that one yard line. And there, they might even feel a little bit like magic once you learn them. Because you’re going to be unlocking things that are invisible to other people. And when you learn to unlock what’s the invisible which becomes visible to you. It just I think everything just becomes more fun and your your hit rate is going to go up, your success rate is going to improve your clients will be happier. It’s really it just makes it’ll make your life a little bit less hard. So if it’s if you’re not going to be motivated, do it because how exciting it is. Think about just reducing the stress and anxiety in your life. This will allow you to do that. So consider one way or the other, getting your CNA certification for whatever your motivation strategy is, but Um, this is the time to level up our skills, a lot of agents are leaving the industry, a lot of agents are pulling back on their efforts, because you know, they’re maybe a little bummed out. Now’s the time to find that grit within us and and do something fun, do something fun, like learn a new skill, do some of the activities, as Eric said that you do enjoy doing just to sort of get you up and up and add them. And then consider adding in some of these skills and let’s let’s all get a coach this year. Let’s, let’s let’s find a coach. Because this is the time we all we are all you ever have to think about is every professional athlete on the planet has a coach. So the very best athletes in the planet have coaches, you probably need one too. Let’s get one. And even if you can’t afford it, you know consider finding a way to afford it because this is going to help your skills and it’s coaching is mostly about skill. So let’s help develop everyone’s skill. Consider getting your CFP designation consider working with Eric directly whether you’re in New York to jump on his team or you’re anywhere else in the country and you just need a coach get a coach. So we will have Eric’s information all throughout our description archway partners. inc.com is where you can learn about his coaching program. The regni.com r e n i is where you can learn about becoming certified negotiation expert. There’s other designations they can teach you there as well. Eric teaches with them. And please follow Eric on his social media channels, Eric, the expert e ir ik the expert, Instagram, YouTube in particular, we’ll have links to all of that again in the description. Eric, I really loved chatting with you. Thank you so much. On behalf of our audience for coming on our show today. We appreciate you and your time. And on behalf of Eric and myself. We also want to thank our lovely audience who made its way all the way to the end of this great conversation, please, as always the best way you can help us tell a friend, they have one other agent that could use this skills based conversation and please send this to them. In fact, send it to every agent that you know, we would really appreciate it but just have to do it with one that’s all we ask. helps us continue to reach more people. So thank you. Thank you, Eric. And we will see everybody on the next episode. Thanks. Eirik Gislason 1:02:09 Thanks DJ