Is Faith Helping Or Hindering Your Recovery (With Justin K Hughes) | Ep. 380

Exploring the relationship between faith and recovery, especially when it comes to managing Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) , reveals a complex but fascinating landscape. It's like looking at two sides of the same coin, where faith can either be a source of immense support or a challenging factor in one's healing journey. On one hand, faith can act like a sturdy anchor or a comforting presence, offering hope and a sense of purpose that's invaluable for many people working through OCD. This aspect of faith is not just about religious practices; it's deeply personal, providing a framework that can help individuals make sense of their struggles and find a pathway towards recovery. The sense of community and belonging that often comes with faith can also play a crucial role in supporting someone through their healing process. However, it's not always straightforward. Faith can get tangled up with the symptoms of OCD , leading to situations where religious beliefs and practices become intertwined with the compulsions and obsessions that characterize the disorder. This is where faith can start to feel like a double-edged sword, especially in cases of scrupulosity, where religious or moral obligations become sources of intense anxiety and compulsion. The conversation around integrating faith into recovery is a delicate one. It emphasizes the need for a personalized approach, recognizing the unique ways in which faith intersects with an individual's experience of OCD. This might involve collaborating with religious leaders, incorporating spiritual practices into therapy, or navigating the complex ways in which faith influences both the symptoms of OCD and the recovery process. Moreover, this discussion sheds light on a broader conversation about the intersection of psychology and spirituality. It acknowledges the historical tensions between these areas, while also pointing towards a growing interest in understanding how they can complement each other in the context of mental health treatment. In essence, the relationship between faith and recovery from OCD highlights the importance of a compassionate and holistic approach. It's about finding ways to respect and integrate an individual's spiritual beliefs into their treatment, ensuring that the journey towards healing is as supportive and effective as possible. This balance is key to harnessing the positive aspects of faith, while also navigating its challenges with care and understanding. Justin K. Hughes, MA, LPC, owner of Dallas Counseling, PLLC, is a clinician and writer, passionate about helping those impacted by OCD and Anxiety Disorders. He serves on the IOCDF's OCD & Faith Task Force and is the Dallas Ambassador for OCD Texas. Working with a diversity of clients, he also is dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and mental health. A sought-after writer and speaker, he is currently mid-way through writing his first workbook on evidence-based care of OCD for Christians. He is seeking a collaborative agent who will help secure the best publishing house to help those most in need. Check out www.justinkhughes.com to stay in the loop and get free guides & handouts! Kimberley: Welcome, everybody. Today, we're talking about faith and its place in recovery. Does faith help your recovery? Does it hinder your recovery? And all the things in between. Today, we have Justin Hughes. Justin is the owner of Dallas Counseling and is a clinician and writer. He's passionate about helping those who are impacted by OCD. He is the Dallas ambassador for OCD Texas and serves on the IOCDF's OCD and Faith Task Force, working with a diversity of clients. He's also dual-trained in psychology and theology, regularly helping anyone to understand the interaction between faith and OCD, most commonly Christians. But today, we're here to talk about faith in general. Welcome, Justin. Justin: Kimberley Jayne Quinlan, howdy. Kimberley: You said howdy just perfectly from your Texas state. Justin: Absolutely. Kimberley: Okay. This is a huge topic. And just for those who are listening, we tried to record this once before, we were just saying, but we had tech issues. And I'm so glad we did because I have thought about this so much since, and I feel like evolved a little since then too. So, we're here to talk about how to use faith in recovery and/or is it helpful for some people, and talk about the way that it is helpful and for some not. Can you share a little bit about your background on why this is an important topic for you? Justin: Absolutely. So, first of all, as a man of faith, I'm a Christian. I went to a Christian college, got my degree in Psychology, and very much desired to interweave studies between psychology and theology. So, I went to a seminary. A lot of people hear that, and they're like, "Did you become a priest?" No, it was a counseling program at a seminary, Dallas Theological Seminary. I came here and then found my wife, and I stayed in Dallas. And it's been important to me from a personal faith standpoint. And I love the faith integration in treatment and exploring that with clients. And of course -- or maybe I shouldn't say of course, but it's going to be a lot of Christians, but I work with a lot of different faith backgrounds. And there are some really important conversations happening in the broader world of treatment about faith integration and its place. And we're going to get into all those things and hopefully some of the history and psychology's relationship to faith, which has not been the greatest at different points. For me personally, faith isn't just an exercise. It's not something that I just add on to make my day better. In fact, a lot of times, faith requires me to do way more difficult things than I want to do, but it's a belief in the ultimate object of my faith in God and Christ as a Christian. I naturally come across a lot of people who not only identify that as important but find it as very essential to their treatment. And let's get into that, the folks that find it essential, the people who find it very much not, and the people who don't. But that's just a little bit about me and why I find this so important. Kimberley: Yeah. It's interesting because I was raised Episcopalian. I don't really practice a lot of that anymore for no reason except, I don't know, if I'm going to be really honest. Justin: So honest. I love that. Kimberley: Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot because I had a positive experience. Sometimes I long for it, but for reasons I don't know. Again, I'm just still on that journey, figuring that piece out and exploring that. Where I see clients is usually on the end of their coming to me as a client, saying, "I'm a believer, but it's all gotten messed up and mushed up and intertwined." And I'm my job. I think of my job as helping them untangle it. Justin: Yeah. Kimberley: Not by me giving my own personal opinion either, but just letting them untangle it. How might you see that? Are you seeing that also? And what is the process of that untangling, if we were to use that word? Justin: It's so broad and varied. So, I would imagine that just like with clients that I work with and folks that come to conferences and that I talk with, the listeners in your audience, hi listeners, are going to have a broad experience of views, and it's so functional. So, I want people to hear right away that I don't think that there's just a cookie-cutter approach. There can't be with this. And whether we're treating OCD, anxiety disorders, or depression, or eating disorders, or BFRVs, fill in the blank, there are obviously evidence-based treatments which are effective for most, but even those can't be a cookie cutter when it comes down to exactly what a person needs to do or what is required of them in recovery. So, yes, let me just state this upfront for the folks that might be unduly nervous at this point. First of all, the faith piece, religious piece, does not have to enter into treatments for a lot of people to get the job done. In fact, actually, for a lot of people, it was much more healing for them, including many of my clients. I have friends and family members that sometimes look at me as scant. So like, "Wait, you went to seminary, and sometimes you don't talk about God at all." And it's like, "Yeah, sometimes we're just doing evidence-based treatment, and that is that." And as an evidence-based practitioner, that's important to me. So, when people come in, I want to work with what their goals are, their values. And a lot of people have found themselves, for any number of reasons, stuck, maybe compulsions or obsessive thoughts or whatever, are stuck in all things belief, religion, or faith or whatever else. And sometimes actually, the most healing thing for them to do is sometimes get in, get out, do the job clinically, walk away, experience freedom, and then grow and develop personally. But then I've also discovered that there's this other side that some people do not find a breakthrough. Some people stay stuck. And maybe these are the people that hit the stats that we see in research of 20% or so just turn down things like ERP, (exposure and response prevention) with OCD when they're offered. And then another 20 to 30% drop out. And we have great studies that tell us that most people who stick with it get a lot of benefits, but there's all the other folks that didn't. And sometimes it's because people -- no offense, you all, but sometimes people just don't want to put in the work and discipline. However, we can't minimize it to that. Sometimes it's truly people that are willing to show up, and there's a complex layer of things. And the cookie-cutter approach is not going to work for them. Maybe they have the intersection of complex health issues, intersection of trauma, intersection of even just family of origin things where life is really difficult, or even just right now, a loneliness epidemic that's happening in the world. And by the way, I'm a huge believer in the evidence base. There's a lot in the evidence base that guides us. And as I'm talking today, I want to be really clear that when I work with folks, even when we get into the spiritual, I'm working with the evidence base. Yeah, there's things that there's no specific protocol for, but a lot of folks, I think, can hopefully be encouraged that there's a strong research base to the benefits and the use and the application and also the care of practicing various spiritual practices through treatments. So, to come back to the original question, it depends so much. It's like if somebody asked me a question like, "Hey, Justin. Okay, so as a therapist, do you think that --" and I get these questions all the time, "Is it okay for me to...? Like, I am afraid of this." I got this question at one point. Somebody was curious if I thought it was okay for them to travel to another city. And it's like, it depends. It's almost always an "it depends." So, that's where I'm going to leave it, that nice, squeaky place that we all just want a dang answer, but the reality is, it is going to massively depend on the person and where they are, and what their needs are. Kimberley: Yeah, I mean, and I'll speak to it too, sometimes I've seen a client. Let's give a few examples of a client with OCD. The OCD has attacked their faith and made it very superstitious or very fear-based instead of faith-based. And I think they come in with that, "Everything's so messy and it used to make so much sense, and now it doesn't." For eating disorders, I've had a lot of clients who will have a faith component where there are certain religions that have ways in which you prepare foods and things, and then that has become very sticky and hard for them. The eating disorder gets involved with that as well. And let me think more just from a general standpoint, and I'll use me as an example, as just like a generally anxious person. I remember this really wonderful time, I'll tell you a funny story, when my daughter was like five, out of nowhere, she insisted that we go to every church. Like she wanted to go to a Christian and a Catholic and Jewish temple and Muslim and Buddhist. She wanted to try all of them, and we were like, "Great, let's go and do it." And I could see how my anxious brain would go black and white on everything they said. So, if they said something really beautiful, my brain would get very perfectionistic about that and have a little tantrum. I think it would be like, "But I can't do it that perfect," and I would get freaked out, but also be able to catch myself. So, I think that it's important to recognize how the disorder can get mixed up in that. Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley: Right? Let's now flip, unless you have something you want to add, to how has faith helped people in their recovery, and what does that look like for you as a clinician, for the client, for their journey? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, on the clinical side of things, the starting place is always going to be the assessments and diagnosis and treatment plan. And then the ethics of it too is going to be working with the person where they are and their beliefs and not forcing anything, of course. And so folks are naturally -- I get it, I respect it. I would be nervous of somebody of a different belief background that's overt about things. Some people come in, they look at the wall, they see Dallas Theological Seminary, they've studied a few things in advance. So, yeah, the starting places, sitting down, honest, building rapport, trust, assessing, diagnosing. So, for the folks where the faith piece is significant, I'll put it into two categories. So, one is sometimes we have to talk about aspects of faith just from a pure assessment sample. So, a common example of that is scrupulosity in OCD. So, I have worked with even a person on the, believe it or not, Faith and OCD Task Force who is atheist. And so, why in the world do we need to talk about faith? Why is that person even on the Faith and OCD Task Force? Well, they're representing a diversity of views and opinions on the role of faith and OCD. Kimberley: Love it. Justin: And it's so interesting to look at it at a base level with something like OCD. But frankly, a lot of mental disorders or even just challenges in life, if clinicians, one, aren't asking questions about, hey, do you have any religious views, background, even just in your background? Do you have spiritual practices that are important to you? We're missing a massive component. And here's the research piece. We know from the research that, actually, a majority of people find things of faith or spirituality important, and secondarily, that a majority of people would like to be able to talk about those things in therapy. Straight-up research. So, a couple of articles that I wrote for the IOCDF on this reference this research. So, it is evidence-based to talk about this. And then when we get into these sticky areas of obsessions and anxiety disorders, of course, it's going to poke on philosophy, worldview, spirituality. And so, it could be even outside of scrupulosity, beliefs that at first it just looks like we need some good shame reduction exercises, self-compassion, and so forth, but we discover that, oh, the person struggling with contamination OCD has a lot of deeper beliefs that they think that somehow, they are flawed because they're struggling. They're not a good enough, fill in the blank, Christian. They're not good enough. Because if so, surely God would break through in a bigger way. If so... Wouldn't these promises that I'm told in scriptures actually become true? And the cool thing is, there's a richness in the theology that helps us understand the nuance there, and it's not that simple. But if we miss that component, and it's essential for treatment, it's not just like, "Oh, I feel bad about myself. And yeah, sometimes I'm critical with myself." And if we don't go at that level of core fear, or core distress, or core belief, oftentimes we're missing really a central part of the treatment, which we talk about in any other domain. People just get nervous sometimes, thinking about spirituality. It's like politics and religion, right? Nobody talks about those things. Well, if we're having deeper conversations, we usually are. And as clinicians, those of you that are listening to the podcast as clinicians, you know that you have to work with people of different political leanings, people of different faith leanings, people who actually live in California versus [inaudible]. I love California. So, the first category is, if we're doing good clinical work, we're going to be asking questions because it matters to most people. If we don't, we're missing a huge piece. It doesn't mean you're a bad therapist, but hey, start asking some questions if you're not, at a minimum. But then there's the second piece that most people actually want to know, and most people have some aspects of practice or integration, or even the most religion church-averse type of person will have any number of things come up such as, "Yeah, I pray occasionally," or "Yeah, I do this grounding exercise that puts me in touch with the universe or creation or whatever it is." So, there's the second category of when it is important to a person because it's part of the bigger picture of growth, it's part of the bigger picture of breaking free from challenges that they have, and, frankly, finding meaning. And I'll just make one philosophical comment here, because I'm a total nerd. Psychology can never be a worldview. Psychology tells us what. Psychology is a subset of science. And by worldview, I mean a collective set of beliefs, guidance, direction about how life should be lived. We can only say, "Hey, when you do this, you tend to feel this way, or you tend to do these behaviors more or do these behaviors less." At the end of the day, we have to make interpretations and judgments about right and wrong, how to live life, the best way to live life. These are in the realm of interpretation. So, surprise, surprise, we're in the realm of at least philosophy, but we very quickly get into theology. And so back to the piece that most people care about it, most people have some sort of spiritual practice that they'll resonate with and connect with. And then most people actually want to integrate a little bit into therapy. And then some people find that it is essential. They haven't been able to find any lasting freedom outside of going deeper into a bigger purpose, `bigger meaning. Kimberley: You said a couple of things that really rang true for me because I really want to highlight here, I'm on the walk here as well as a client. And I love having these conversations with clients, not about me, about them, but them when they don't have a spiritual practice, longing for one. I've had countless clients say, "I just wish I believed." And I think what sometimes they're looking for is a motivator. I have some clients who have a deep faith, and their North Star is that religion. Their North Star is following the word of that religion or the outcome of it, whether it be to go to heaven or whatever, afterlife or whatever. They believe like that's the North Star. That's what determines every part of their treatment. Like, "Why are we doing this exposure today?" "Because this is my North Star. I know where I'm heading. I know what the goal is." And then I have those clients who are like, "I need a North Star. I don't have one. I don't get the point." And I think that is where faith is so beautiful in recovery. When I witness my clients who are going to do the scary thing, they don't want to do it, but they're so committed to this North Star, whatever it might be. And maybe there's a better language than a North Star, again, whatever that is for that person. Like, "I'm walking towards the light of whatever that religion is." I feel, if I'm going to be honest, envious of that. And I totally get that some people do too. What would you say to a client who is longing for something like that? Maybe they have spiritual trauma in some respects or they've had bad experiences, or they're just unsure. What would you say to them? Justin: Yeah, that's really great. And first of all, I just want to really say that it takes a lot of vulnerability and strength to talk as you do. And one of the ways that I admire you, KQ, is through your ability to have these vulnerable conversations. So not just like the platform of expert, because at the end of the day, we're all just people and on a journey for sure. And so thanks for being honest with that. And I'm on a journey as well. And certainly, I realized jumping on podcasts, these things put us in the expert role and we speak at conferences and things like that. But I think that's a bit of the answer right there, is that being where we are to start with is so huge. And I mean, you're so good with the steps to take around acceptance and compassion. That's it. It's like fear presses towards a thousand different possibilities, and none of them come true exactly that way. And it can lead towards people missing a lot of personal growth stuff, spiritual growth stuff. And one of those things, I think, that we do is we sit with that. Clinically, I'm going to assess, ask a lot of questions, Socratic questions as a subset of the cognitive therapy side of doing that. Let me just come back to the simplicity. I think we get there. We sit in it for a second. And otherwise, we miss it. We're rushing to preconceived solutions or answers, but we're saying that we don't necessarily have an answer for that. So, what if we take some time to actually notice it and to be with that and to actually label it and be like, "I'm not sure. I'm yearning. I'm envious. I'm wanting something, but I don't know. So, put me in, coach." I'll sit with people. That's really the first thing. Kimberley: Yeah. What I have practiced, and I've encouraged clients is also being curious, like trying things out if that lines up with their values, going to a service, reading a book, listening to a podcast, and just trying it on. For me, it's also interesting with clients, is if they're yearning for it, try it on and observe what shows up. Is it that black-and-white thinking or perfectionism? Is it your obsessions getting involved? Is it that it just doesn't feel good in your body? And so forth. Again, just be where you are and take it slow, I think. I have a few other areas I want you to look at in terms of giving me your professional thoughts. If somebody wants to incorporate faith into their treatment, what can that look like? Can it look like praying together? What does that look like? Justin: You're asking all the good questions. Yeah, absolutely. And also, one other thing to reference, I know you're friends with Shala Nicely and Jeff Bell. And so they wrote a book. And for those that are on that, I would say, more "I'm seeking journey," it's When in Doubt, Make Belief: An OCD-Inspired Approach to Living with Uncertainty. And I love Shala and Jeff. They're so great, and they've been really pivotal people in my own life, not just as friends, but just as personal growth too. And so, that's an example specifically where Shala talks about the throes of her suffering. Is Fred in the Refrigerator? is her basically autobiography that goes into the clinical piece too, where at the end of the day, there was a bit of a pragmatic experience that she couldn't -- the universe being against her, she basically always had that view and she needed something that was different. And so she got there, I think. I hope I'm reflecting her sentence as well, but got there pragmatically. "The universe is friendly" is something that she said. Now, I just know that my Christian brothers and sisters, if they're listening to this, they're probably like, "What the heck is Justin talking about? The universe is friendly?" Because that's very, very different from the language that we've used, but it's just such a great example to me of just one step at a time, a person on the journey. They're looking at those things and assessing, okay, what is obsessive, what is compulsive, what is this thing that I can believe in and I ultimately do, but maybe I'm not. I don't want to or I'm not ready, or it doesn't make sense to me to make a jump into an organized religious plea for whatever else. And so, how does it look for clients? So in short, do I pray with clients? Yeah, absolutely. Do I open up the Bible? Yes, absolutely. Actually, it is a minority of sessions, which again, on my more conservative friends and family side of things are almost shocked and scratching their heads. Like, "You're a Christian, you do counseling, and you're not doing that." We're a bunch of weirdos. We're in that realm of the inter-Christian circle in a good sense. We believe so deeply that God loves us and God has interceded and does intercede, and interacts with our present, not just a historical event here and there, and we're left on our own, the deistic watchmaker, to use a philosophical reference there. That because we believe that so strongly, we're not going to take no for an answer in the sense of the deeper growth and deeper faith. So, sometimes that backfires though, especially getting into the superstitious, like, "Well, God's got to be in everything, and I'm not feeling it," as opposed to like, "Okay. Is it possible that I could just have a brain that gives me some pretty nasty thoughts sometimes and it doesn't necessarily reflect that I'm in a bad state, that I can be curious about what a person getting mangled by a car might look like mentally and then be terrified by that?" And then like, "Thanks, brain, for giving me the imagination. Glad I can think through accidents so I can maybe be a safer driver." Yeah, absolutely. But I will say that's one of those sticky points a lot of times for Christians because we believe that thoughts matter and beliefs matter. And so there can be this overinterpretation of everything is always something really big and serious about my status and my heart, and something that's really big and serious about spiritual things or demonic stuff, or fill in the blank. So, the faith integration piece, I do carefully, but I'm not scared of it. I've done it so often. It's through a lot of assessments. It has to be from the standpoint of the client's wanting that. Usually, the client is asking me specifically, like, "Hey, would you pray at the end of the session?" Sure, absolutely, in most cases. And this, such a deep topic. I'm fully aware that there are those in the camp that view faith integration as completely antithetical to what needs to happen in treatments. And they argue their case, they're going to argue it really strongly, but the same exists on the other side as well. And I try and work in that realm of, okay, what's good for the clients? And are there some things that I don't do? Yeah, but I'm not really asked to do them. I've had a number of Muslim clients throughout the year. I don't join in with Ramadan with clients in various practices or fasting with a client, for example. That's not my faith practice there. But can I walk with the client who is trying to differentiate between the lines of fasting and I had water at this point, and the sun was going down and I thought. And other people were having water, but I'm getting stuck on assessing, like, was it too early, and did I actually violate my commitment, my vow? Did I violate what I was supposed to be doing? I can absolutely work with that person, and I need to. I can't really work with OCD or anxiety disorders if I wanted to turn that person away at the door and be like, "Oh, well, I'm not Muslim, so I'm sorry." No, we're going to jump into it and be like, "Okay, so tell me about this thought and then this behavior that came up at this time, and you're noticing that that's a little different from your community, that other people are starting to drink water, eat food. And so, you mentioned that it was right at sunset, but what time was that?" "Well, actually, it was like 10:30 p.m. It's two hours dark." It's like, "But I think I saw a glow in the distance." And it's like, "Okay, now we're into a pretty classic OCD realm." And so the simplest way that I can say that faith integration can be done in therapy is carefully, respectfully, with good assessments. Kimberley: Do you have them consult with their spiritual leader if you're stuck on that? And does that involve you speaking with them, them speaking with them, all three of you? What have you done? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So, there is a collaboration that goes in a number of different ways. Most of the time, people can speak with their clergy member or faith leader pretty directly, pretty separately, and that is going to work just fine. I would say in most cases, people don't need to, especially if I'm working with OCD. A lot of folks usually have a pretty good general sense of, "Okay, I know what my faith community is going to say about this is X, but I'm scared because it feels like it's on shaky ground, I'm obsessing," et cetera. So, the clarification with the clergy, for instance, or a leader is more from the standpoint of if there's not a defined value definition practice, and that does come up for sure. So, helping that person to even find who that might be, especially if they're not a part of that, and/or maybe a good article to read with some limits, like, okay, three articles max. Check out a more conservative view, a more liberal view, a more fill in the blank. And then my friend and colleague Alec Pollard up at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute, he's been on scrupulosity panels with me. He uses this excellent form called the PISA, (Possibly Immoral or Sinful Act). And it's just a great several-question guide. That or any number of things can be taken to clergyperson, leader in Christian circles a lot of times, like a Bible study or community group. Maybe flesh those things out just a little bit, maybe once, maybe twice max. And so, back to how much others are integrated, yeah, it's a mix and match, anything, everything. For me, with direct conversations with clergy, it's actually because I'm pretty deep into this realm, I have pretty easy access to a lot of folks, so I don't really need to so much talk directly or get that person on a release. But a lot of people do, especially if they don't know that religious belief or faith traditions approach on certain topics. Kimberley: Yeah. It's so wonderful to talk about this with you. Justin: Thanks, Kimberley. Same here. Kimberley: Because I really do feel, I think post-COVID, there's more conversations with my clients about this. This could be totally just my clients, but I've noticed an increased longing, like you said, for that connection, the loneliness pandemic. Justin: Yeah, that's statistical. Kimberley: Such a need for connection, such a need for community, such a need for that, like what is your North Star? And it can be, even if we haven't really talked about depression, it can be a really big motivator when you're severely depressed, right? Justin: Absolutely. Kimberley: And this is where I'm very much like so curious and loving this conversation with my clients right now in terms of, where is it helpful? Where isn't it helpful? As you said, do you want to use this as a part of your practice here in treatment, in recovery? And what role does it play? I know I had mentioned to you, I'd even asked on Instagram and did a poll, and there were a lot of people saying, "It gave me a community. It immensely helps. It does keep me focused on the goal," especially if it's done intentionally without letting fear take over. Is there anything you wanted to add to this conversation before we finish up? Justin: Yeah, I guess two things. So, one is you talked about that, and we talked about a couple of those responses before we jumped on to recording. So, in summary, the responses were all across the board, like, "Ooh." Let me know if I'm summarizing this well, but, "I have to be really careful. That can be really compulsive or not so much. I don't like to do that. I don't think it's necessary." And then like, yeah, absolutely. This is really integral and really important. Is that a fair summary? Kimberley: Very much. Yep. Justin: Okay. And so, I'm building this talk, Katie O'Dunne and Rabbi Noah Tile, ERP As a Spiritual Practice. We're giving here at the Faith and OCD Conference in April, if this is out by then. And in my section that I have, I'm covering the best practices of treatments, specifically ERP (exposure and response prevention) for OCD, and clinically, but then also from a faith standpoint, what do we consider with that? And there's this three-prong separation that I'm making. I'm not claiming a hold on the market with this, but I'm just observing. There's one category of a person who comes into therapy, and it's like, yeah, face stuff, whatever. It doesn't matter, or even almost antagonistic against it. Maybe they've been burnt, maybe they've been traumatized or abused with faith. Yeah, I get it. So, that first camp is there. But then there's also a second camp that people like to add on spiritual practices. They might mix and match, or they might follow a specific system, belief system. And whether it gets into mindfulness or meditation practices or fasting or any number of things, they find that there's a lot of benefit, but it's maybe not at the heart of it. And then there's this third prong of folks that it is part and parcel of everything they do. And I work with all three. They come up in different ways. And sometimes people cycle between those different ones as well in treatments in the process. Kimberley: I'm glad you said that. Justin: Yeah. And so, I just thought that was interesting when you pulled folks that had come up. Really, the second thing, and maybe this is at least my ending points unless we have anything else, you had mentioned to the audience that graciously, we had some tech issues. You all, it wasn't Kimberley's tech issues. It was Justin's tech issues. I spilled coffee on my computer like a week or two prior. It zapped. It's almost like you'd see in a movie, except it wasn't sparking. And I'm like, "Oh my goodness." And it was in a client session. That was a whole funny story in of itself. And I'm like, "Oh my goodness." It wasted my nice computer that I use for live streaming and all of that. And so I'm using my little budget computer at home. It's like, "Oh, hopefully it works." And it just couldn't. It couldn't keep up with all the awesomeness that KQ's spitting out. And I shared with you, Kimberley, a little bit on the email, something deep really hit me after that. I felt a lot of shame when we tried back and forth for 30 minutes to do it, and my computer kept crashing, basically because it couldn't stand the bandwidth and whatever else was needed. And one might think it's just a technical thing, but I'd had some stuff happen earlier that week. I started to play in my church worship band, lead guitar, and there was something that I just wasn't able to break through, and I was just feeling ashamed of that. And it just really hit me. And one of my key domains that I am growing in is my own perfectionism, as a subset of my own anxiety, and perfectionism is all about shame. And I love performance, I love to perform well. I like to say, "Oh, it's seeking excellence, and it's seeking the best for other people's good." But deep down inside, perfectionism is this shame piece that anything shy of perfect is not good enough, and it just hit me. I felt like trash after that happened. I felt embarrassed. And you were so gracious, "It's okay, we'll reschedule." And so, I went for a walk, which I do. Clear my mind, get exercise. And I was just stuck on that. And one of the ways where my Christian walk really came in at that moment was, I started to do some cognitive restructuring. I started to -- for you all who don't know, it's looking at the bigger picture and being more realistic with negative thoughts. Like, "Ah, I can't believe this happened. I failed this," as opposed to like, "Okay, we're rescheduling. It's all right. It actually gave us more time to think about it." And I didn't know that then, but I could have said similar things. I was doing a bunch of clinical tools that are helpful, but frankly, it wasn't until I just tapped into the bigger purpose of, one, not controlling the universe. I don't keep this globe spinning. I barely keep my own life spinning. Two, God loves me. And three, it's okay. It's going to work that out. Four, maybe there's something bigger, deeper going on that I don't know. And I can't guarantee that it was for this reason. I'm not going to put that in God's mouth and say that, "Oh yeah, okay, well, He gave us a couple more weeks to prepare." I don't know. I really don't know. But it helped me to tap into like, "Okay, it's all right. It's really all right." And it took me about half a day, frankly. I'm slightly embarrassed to say, "No, I'm not embarrassed to say that as a clinician who works with this stuff. I have full days, I have full weeks. I have longer periods of time where I'm wrestling with this stuff." And yeah, areas have grown. I've improved in my life for sure, but I'm just a hot mess some days. Kimberley: But that's nice to hear too, because I think, again, clients have said it looks so nice to be loved by God all the time. That must be so nice. But it's not nice. I hate that you went through that. But I think people also need to know that people of faith also have to walk through really tough days and that it isn't the cure-all, that faith isn't the cure-all for struggles either. I think that's helpful for people to know. Justin: Yeah, that's right. So, thank you for letting me share a little bit of that. And yeah, the personalized example of why, at least for me, faith is important. If folks come into my office and they say, "Nah, no thanks," okay, I'm going to try lightly, carefully, or just avoid it altogether if that's what they want. But oftentimes it's really at the center of, okay, purpose, meaning, direction, guidance, and okay, you want to do that? I'll roll up my sleeves, and let's go. Kimberley: Yeah. See, I'm glad that it happened because you got to tell that beautiful story. And without that beautiful story, I would be less happy. So, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable. I think I shared with you in an email like I've had to get so good at letting people down that I get it. And I love that you have that statement, like God loves me. That is beautiful. That's like sun on your face right there. I love that you had that moment. Justin: Yeah, it comes up so much, so many times. In the Bible and even to -- like I wrote this article on Fear Not . So, the most common exhortation in all of the Christian Bible is fear not. So, one might think like, "Oh yeah, don't commit adultery," or "Don't kill, don't murder," or fill in the blank. Not even close. The most common exhortation in all of scriptures is actually fear not, and then love, various manifestations all throughout. I could go on, but I know we're out of time. Kimberley: Well, what I will say is tell people where they can hear about you and even access that if they're interested. I love to read that article. So, where will people hear about you and learn more about the work you do? Please tell us everything. Justin: Yeah, sure. And I'll include some stuff for your show notes that you can send to the things referenced. And then JustinKHughes (J-U-S-T-I-N-K-H-U-G-H-E-S) .com is my base of operations where the contact, my email practice information, my blog is on there. And you can subscribe to my newsletter totally free. Totally, totally free. And I do a bunch of eBooks as well on there that are free . JustinKHughes.com/GetUnstuck to join one of four of the newsletters. Other than that, that's where those announcements come out for different conferences. So, Faith and OCD, if this is out in time in April, but April every year, it's getting to be pretty big. We're getting hundreds of people attending. We're now in our fourth annual IOCDF (International OCD Foundation Conference), local conferences, various live streams. So, anyway, the website is that base, that hub, where you'll actually see any number of those different announcements. Thanks for asking. Kimberley: I'm going to make sure this is out before the conference. Can you tell people where they can go to hear about the conference? Justin: Yeah. So, IOCDF.org. And then I think it's /conferences, but you can also type into Google conferences and there's a series of all sorts of different conferences going on. And this is the one that's dedicated to OCD and faith concerns. And just when you think that it's just one specific belief system, then prepare to be surprised because we've done a lot of work to have a diverse group of folks, sharing and speaking and covering a lot of things, ranging from having faith-specific or non-faith nuns, support groups. So, there are literally support groups if you're an atheist and you have OCD, and that's actually an important part of where you are in your journey. But for Christians, for Muslims, for Jewish, et cetera, et cetera, we're trying to really have any number of backgrounds supported along with talks and in broad general things, but then we get more specific into, "Hey, here's for clinicians. Hey, here's for the tips on making for effective practices." Kimberley: Yeah, amazing. And I'll actually be speaking on self-compassion there as well. So, I'm honored to be there. Thank you for being here, Justin. This was so wonderful. Justin: Yeah, this really was. Thank you.