Ep. 008: How to Write a Ridiculously Awesome Resume (Jenny Foss)

Writing a winning, stand-out resume can feel like a roadblock to overcome in your job search. Often people experience what we call “resume writer’s block” when applying to a job, especially when dealing with online application systems. To simplify the process, look at your resume as a marketing document that is used to sell yourself to a potential employer as the best fit for the job.Is your resume “smack in the forehead” obvious? Will it get you an interview--or even better, hired for the job? This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Jenny Foss, a longtime recruiter, job search strategist, and voice behind popular career blog JobJenny.com , which has been named among the Top 100 Career Blogs by Forbes magazine. She also is the author of several job search books, including the Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit and the Ridiculously Awesome LinkedIn Kit . In this 33-minute episode you will learn: Why it’s so hard to write a good resume and what you can do to make it easier How to beat automated applicant tracking systems The difference between your resume and LinkedIn profile What to include in your resume: Hobbies? Interests? Employment gaps? This week’s guest: Jenny Foss ( @JobJenny )Founder, JobJenny.com President, Ladder Recruiting Group Portland, Ore. Listener question of the week: Does my resume have to be one-page? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org . Resources referenced on this week’s show: 12 Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won’t Catch Six Words that Make Your Resume Suck Can You Find All the Mistakes on This Job-Seeker Resume? “We Don’t Serve Your Type Here”: How to Pick the Right Resume Font JobJenny.com Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit Ridiculously Awesome LinkedIn Kit Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide Special offer: The latest book from JobJenny.com recently launched, and she’s offering a special deal for all “Find Your Dream Job” listeners! Use discount code “Macslist” when you check out for $15 off the cost of JobJenny’s new book The Ridiculously Awesome Career Pivot Kit , as well as all the guides in her online shop ! If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org . -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes . We appreciate your support! Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com . FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW: Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List, your best online source for rewarding creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice, and our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." Thanks for joining us today. We all learn about job openings in different ways. Maybe a headhunter calls you out of the blue or you may find a perfect gig on a job board, or even the old fashioned way, in the classified ads of your local newspaper. However you discover an opportunity, you can be certain you'll be asked to send your resume. What you do next can make a huge difference in your success. Should you write a custom resume for every job? Do employers want to see one or two pages? What format makes the most sense, chronological or functional? Maybe, just maybe, the Reese Witherspoon character in the movie Legally Blonde was on to something when she printed her resume on pink scented paper. After all, it got her into Harvard Law School, didn't it? This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about resumes. We'll start with the mistakes that can send your application straight to the wastebasket. Ben Forstag has three cool resources you can use to avoid resume disasters that even seasoned professionals make. Cecilia Bianco tackles a resume question we get time and time again here at Mac's List, one page or two. Later, we'll be joined by our guest expert, Jenny Foss, founder of JobJenny.com and the author of The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. First, let's check in with the Mac's List team, Ben Forstag and Cecilia Bianco. Crew, how are you doing this week? Cecilia Bianco: We're doing good. Ben Forstag: Yeah, having a great week. Mac Prichard: Good. We had a lot of fun earlier in the week. For people who are in the Pacific Northwest, you may be [inaudible 00:02:12]. We do events occasionally, about eight times a year and we had one this week on Careers in New Media. Cecilia Bianco: Mm-hmm (affirmative), how to start or restart a career in communications. Ben Forstag: Yeah, it was a great event. We had a 160 people there, a great panel of experts in the field, a lot of great networking. It was real fun. Mac Prichard: For people who can't make the trip to Portland, I think there is a recording, isn't there, Ben? Ben Forstag: There will be and we'll put that on our website once it's available. Mac Prichard: We're not encouraging you to plan your next vacation around the Mac's List schedule, but- Ben Forstag: Why not? Mac Prichard: -But if you are headed to the Pacific Northwest or you're just here in Portland or working in state or Oregon, pay attention to our blog. You'll see plenty of notice about events. Again, they happen about eight times a year and we would love to see you there. Let's turn to this week's topic, resumes. Okay, Ben, what resources do you have for our listeners? Ben Forstag: Mac and Cecilia, have you ever typed resume tips or resume advice or resume help into Google. Cecilia Bianco: Oh, yeah. Ben Forstag: Mac? Mac Prichard: I have, yeah. Ben Forstag: You get like a bazillion results? Mac Prichard: Yes. Ben Forstag: They all say different things? Cecilia Bianco: Yup. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Ben Forstag: Or sometimes they say the same thing, just in different ways? Mac Prichard: Right, a lot of conflicting advice out there. Ben Forstag: Yeah, so what I've done this week is I picked that three blogs that I thought were particularly good around resume advice and I'm going to briefly talk about each one of those. The first one comes from the Monster.com blog and it's called Twelve Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won't Catch. The thing I like about this is it's very concise, tight, and pretty conservative list of things you should watch out for. I'm not going to go into each one of the mistakes they say you can make. I'll leave that for our listeners to discover, but I think this is a good list to start with. The other thing I like about this is even though they frame it as horrible mistakes, a lot of these things are tips you can do to write a better resume. It's not all negative. There's some positive spin on it as well. Mac Prichard: You have to have a favorite typo that you saw though in that blog post. Did one stand out? Ben Forstag: It wasn't typos as much. My favorite piece of advice, and this is just a personal irk I have is using Times New Roman font, which is the default font on Microsoft Office products, or at least it was back in the day. One of their suggestions is just don't do that. Pick another conservative font but not Times New Roman. It's just too standard. Mac Prichard: Well, my favorite typo happened when I worked in the governor's office and we had a news release about public health. Somebody left out the L in public, so there's much hilarity after that. Fortunately, the governor had a great sense of humor. Ben Forstag: I don't get it, Mac. Just kidding. (Laughing) Okay, the … Mac Prichard: We'll let our listeners puzzle over that one. All right, so Twelve Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won't Catch. Ben Forstag: That's on the Monster.com blog. Mac Prichard: All right, and that will be in the show notes. Ben Forstag: All of these will be in the show notes because I'll spare you the long URLs. The second one I wanted to point out was Six Words that Make Your Resume Suck. Now, these aren't dirty words or swear words, but they are mundane expressions that litter a lot of mediocre resumes. Let me go back. This is from the Squawkfox blog which is primarily a personal finance blog, but the writer put quite a few blog post together about resume writing. Let me just go through quickly these words, they're actually phrases, that make a resume suck. There's things like, the phrases, "Responsible for," "Experienced in," "Excellent communication skills," "Team player," "Detail-oriented," and "Successful." Now, the author's issue with these is not that the concepts are bad; it's just that you're telling people about what you do instead of showing experiences that display those skills. Her emphasis is don't tell people you are responsible for something, just tell them what you did. Don't say that you're a great team player. Show an experience that shows that you're a good team player. Employers can read between the lines and figure things out. The last blog post I want to share about, this is one that I particularly liked because I'm someone who learns best through practice and I like this post because it gives me a chance to apply the do's and don'ts of resume writing. It's Can You Find All the Mistakes on this Job-Seeker Resume? This is available on the Quint Careers blog. Essentially, they give you a resume and challenge you to go find all the problems with it. Mac Prichard: This is like finding Waldo in your resume? Ben Forstag: It's a little bit easier than finding Waldo. Some of them are really clear. Like at one point, I think they used Comic Sans as the font. Cecilia Bianco: Oh no, not Comic Sans. Ben Forstag: I see you're a type snob. You're just like me, Cecilia. Cecilia Bianco: Yup. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mac Prichard: Yeah. Let's dig in to that a little deeper. I didn't know you were so passionate about Comic Sans. Cecilia Bianco: Oh yeah. I wrote a blog post about how you should not use Comic Sans. It's just the worst font ever. It just looks like so unprofessional. It's comical to me. Ben Forstag: Yeah. Unless you're like writing a poster for a lost dog or something or the carnival is coming through town, don't use Comic Sans. Mac Prichard: All right. Ben Forstag: In this sample resume, some of the mistakes are really easy to find. Some of them take a little bit more investigation. I believe the author said there were 15 different mistakes in the resume. I only caught 14. I think it's worthwhile to go through and test what you've learned through reading the other materials that's on the Internet and what you hear today. That's again on the Quint Careers blog. I'll have the links for all three of these blog posts in the show notes. Mac Prichard: Great. Let's be sure to link to Cecilia's post- Ben Forstag: Of course. Mac Prichard: -Of Comic Sans. That one must have slipped on me because I don't remember it. I look forward to reading it. Well, thanks, Ben. If you have a suggestions for Ben, and I think you are hearing from listeners now where this is Episode 9 that we're recording. Ben Forstag: Yeah. I want to give a quick shout out to our listener Russell who was the first person to reach out to me with a suggestion for a resource. He suggested a book which I will definitely be reading and share my thoughts on at a later date. Mac Prichard: Okay. Ben is standing by his computer. We've heard him on the keyboard before so if you've got an idea for the show, his address is ben@macslist.org. Now let's turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia, let's talk about resumes and what's your resume question of the week? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. The question this week is "Does my resume have to be one page?" We get this question all the time and people are always Googling this. I don't really think that resumes have to be one page. I do think that aiming to keep it to one page is a good tactic to help you focus your resume to each job that you're applying for. Lately, I've been reading a lot of articles about this and they're saying that the one-page resume rule is dead. While that's hard for me to believe because previously people were saying resumes longer than a page are thrown out, not even read. I think that it might be true. Would either of you throw out a resume if it was two pages long? Ben Forstag: I don't know if I'd throw one out. I do know that if it was a hard and fast rule, you can't have a two-page resume, I would never have a job. My resume is two pages and I think it's a pretty focused resume at that. I try to put only things in that are germane to the job I'm applying for or have been applying for. The best thing I've heard about this, I think it was actually Job Jenny who said this. That the important thing is the quality, the focus of the material in that resume, and you can't imagine any employer saying, "This is the perfect candidate for resume," but their resume is two pages long. No. That doesn't happen. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. Mac Prichard: I'm in the two-page resume camp. Mine personally has been two pages, in part, because I'm much farther along in my career. I agree with Ben that if you've got the background and the skills and the experience to justify it, two pages is okay. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, I agree. I don't see an employer throwing a resume out for this reason, especially if all the experience is valid. I think the one-page rule is more for new graduates and students, because I think they're the groups that will tend to list more things on their resume that they need and just add duties and responsibilities that aren't really helpful to them. I think it depends what your background is, but it's definitely not a hard and fast rule anymore. Ben Forstag: I can see that making sense for a new graduate, somebody who doesn't have a whole lot of experience. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely. Mac Prichard: Okay, so two pages is okay, but think carefully about your content and make the best case possible. Cecilia Bianco: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mac Prichard: Great. Thanks, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, her email address is cecilia@macslist.org. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List Guides, publisher of our new book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. The Mac's List Guide gives you the tools you need to get the job you want. We'll show you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field, and how to manage your career. The book has eight chapters. In each chapter, expert shared job hunting secrets like how to hear about jobs that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. You can get the first chapter of the book for free. Just go to macslist.org/macslistguides. Now, it's time to hear from our expert and we have a terrific expert joining us today. Jenny Foss is a long time recruiter, job search strategist, and the voice behind the popular career blog, JobJenny.com. It's been named one of the Top 100 career blogs by Forbes. She's also the author of several job search books including one we're going to talk a lot about today, The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. Jenny, thanks for joining us. Jenny Foss: Thank you for having me. Mac Prichard: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Now, Jenny, a resume is a short document. Whether it's one or two pages and our listeners heard earlier we're on the two page camp here at Mac's List, but it ranges between 500 to 1,000 words. Why is it so hard to write one? Jenny Foss: It's hard to write for a lot of reasons. Number one, a lot of people have a level of discomfort to say the least when it comes to writing about themselves in a way that's going to properly market themselves to whatever audience that they're trying to go after. It feels awkward. We've been trained as we grow up not to brag, not to boast, and frankly, this is exactly what you need to do in a strategic way when you're constructing a resume. Then the secondary challenge is we don't understand how the game works a lot of the time. We don't understand how resumes can exhaust our works and what it will be your resume is going to be reviewed on and how to get it through the system, how to make it enticing to the human reviewers. It's so hard for a lot of people, even people who are exceptional writers because there's just so much to consider when you're constructing one. Mac Prichard: Okay, you flagged a lot of good points there. Let's separate them and break them down a bit. Let's talk about … Jenny Foss: Let's break it down. Mac Prichard: Yeah. We'll put it into short manageable chunks, which I think may be one of the tactics that you recommend in resume writing. I want to go back to a point you made about strategy. I think sometimes people think a resume is just about reciting facts. Jenny, tell our listeners why a "just the facts, ma'am" approach is usually not effective when you write a resume and the advantages of making strategic choices. Jenny Foss: Because it's a marketing document. It's a marketing document that you're using to try and entice an audience, a decision maker. It's not an autobiography. It's not a list of every last thing you ever did. It's a marketing document and therefore you have to figure out what does my audience care about or what will they likely care about or be looking for and how can I position myself as a logical match or as a great solution for those things that I know that they're going to care about. Yes, please lose the list mentality when it comes to a resume. Mac Prichard: Okay, so think about your audiences, their needs, the problems they have, and how you can solve them. You mentioned earlier automated tracking systems and automation is everywhere in the workplace including the human resource office. When computers review our resumes, what can we do to stop a machine from sending our resume straight to the slash pile? Jenny Foss: In a perfect world, you bypass the machine all together and you get right to the decision maker or somebody in the HR team. However, I know that that's unrealistic in a lot of instances. If you are intending to send your resume through an online application process, you have to assume that's going to go through an applicant tracking system, which is the database that sits at the front end of the recruitment process and looks for best matched candidates. Primarily, you want to make sure that your resume is robust in keywords that are common and specific to the type of job you're pursuing and also that you've got standard headers, you've got straightforward formatting because the system won't easily read and parse if you've got a resume that's got wild graphics or an unusual font. Mac Prichard: Again, think about your audience and strategy and think about the automation or the algorithms that might be scanning your resume. What about when people get stuck? You talked about how people should approach writing, but are there tips and tricks you have for people who just can't get started or are spending way too much time in their resume? Jenny Foss: One of the best things to do if you can't figure out what to highlight is to study three, four job descriptions that are very appealing to you, lay them out side by side and figure out what are the overlapping requirements or preferred qualifications that keep coming up on these job descriptions that are attracting me. That's probably a very good indicator of what these decision makers are going to be looking for and what the scanning software is going to be reading for. Make sure that you position yourself as a solution or as a match to those things. If you're feeling stuck, it might just be time to review some job descriptions before you make yourself crazy trying to figure this all out. Mac Prichard: Now, in addition to your books and working with job seekers as a counselor and coach, you've worked as a recruiter. You talked to employers a lot. When you speak to employers, what do they say about resumes that stand out? What do people do to make their resume stand out and what are some of their complaints that they share with you about resumes that they don't take a second look at? Jenny Foss: The most basic rule of thumb as to what makes a great resume, and this comes from feedback from my corporate recruiting clients or corporate decision makers and from the work I've done for the last several years as Job Jenny, is the easier you can make it for your target audience to make a quick connection between here's what we need and here's what Mac Prichard can walk through our doors and deliver, the better the odds are that they're going to invite you in for an interview. That's all you're using this resume for is to land an interview. You want to make sure that you make perfect sense and from a reviewer stand point, they want to quickly scan your resume and see how and why you are a good fit for that job. They're not going to deduce that for you. They're not going to say, "Oh, well, he's done this. Maybe he can do this. Oh, he's got this background. Perhaps he'd be able to go do this." You've got to make it what I call smack in the forehead obvious why you're there and why they should contact you. Mac Prichard: We've talked about strategy, audience, content. What about layout and design? How much time should people spend not only looking a thing about topography, but rules and colors and paper? Jenny Foss: Well, it's an interesting question because the answer depends on if you are intending to apply for jobs through an online application or if you're always going to get that resume to a decision maker directly via email or handing it over. The reason there's a difference is when you're giving it to somebody directly, you've got plenty of latitude in how you can design it, how much layer you can have on it if you're using color and graphics and things like that, because it's not going to go through the resume scanning software. However, most of us, at least some of the time, are applying for things online and so you have to be very mindful to make it straightforward in layout, common PC fonts. You've got to save it in a doc format and you need to understand how the scanning software works because then you can make sure that you're laying this thing out in a way that's actually going to be applicant tracking system friendly. You know what, Mac, I understand. Like everyone might be sitting there thinking, "Well, that sounds like a big pain in the butt." Yeah, it is, but it's a bigger pain in the butt if you aren't getting through the resume scanning software over and over and over again because you've got some layout issues or formatting issues. Mac Prichard: A lot of our listeners apply for jobs at smaller organizations, non-profits or public agencies or private employers, how widespread is the use of automated tracking systems in resume review? Jenny Foss: Very. I think it's 70 to 80 percent of companies and recruiting agencies are using some form of software to help them manage their recruitment process. In smaller companies, say you see something on Craigslist or Mac's List and that gives you a direct email address to send to a human, then you can use your stylized format resume and save it as a PDF so it will retain the design elements no matter what platform the other person is looking at it from, but then it's less of an issue. If you don't know or if you are applying for something through an online application as opposed to emailing it to someone, you should probably assume that there is some kind of scanning software at play. Mac Prichard: We're talking today, Jenny, about resumes, but you can't manage your career or look for your next job effectively without having a LinkedIn profile. Talk to us about the difference between a resume and a LinkedIn profile. Jenny Foss: Well, for job seekers, the main difference is with LinkedIn, you're trying to entice a recruiter or a hiring manager to get to your profile and then once they do, to learn enough about you to whet their appetite to contact you whereas with the resume, you're telling it all. I don't want to say at all but it's a more comprehensive view of you. LinkedIn, I use the analogy often, if your resume is your Wall Street Journal version of you, LinkedIn is more the USA Today style. It's a little bit more bite-sized, a little bit more conversational because the platform is designed to facilitate conversation, and … This is important to remember … no recruiter wants to scroll until the end of time to get to the bottom of your profile. They're going through a lot of LinkedIn profiles every single day. You want to find that balance between giving them enough information so they know what you're about without torturing the reviewer with a really super long LinkedIn profile. Mac Prichard: You mentioned that a resume should be more comprehensive. What kind of personal information should people include in a resume in your experience? What should they say about hobbies or interests, travel, that kind of thing? Jenny Foss: I think some of that is dependent on the type of industry you're in and the type of role you're gunning for. For instance, if you're a high level executive, chances are you don't need to include a lot about, "I like listening to music with my kids." I mean that's just weird. If you're applying for, say, a role in a lifestyle company which we have plenty of those out in the Oregon market, maybe you include that you're a kayaker or you do dragon boating because that could actually be a great conversation starter. I would say you always want to gauge and certainly never include anything that could be controversial or polarizing. I mean generally speaking, like political and controversial clubs, associations, things like that, probably best to leave them off. Mac Prichard: We're coming to the close of our interview shortly. I want to though move into a rapid fire round, Jenny. Jenny Foss: Okay, yeah. Mac Prichard: Ask you some common resume questions that we get at Mac's List. Jenny Foss: Yeah, go ahead. Mac Prichard: Cecilia and Ben and I hear this a lot at our events and our one-on-one meetings with people. What's your best advice about how listeners should address the following: gap years. Jenny Foss: Your best defense is almost always a good offense. If there's a quick and easy explanation that you can add to one or the other of the jobs, the earlier one or the one that preceded it, say like, "Following a family relocation to the Pacific Northwest, accepted a role as blah, blah, blah" or "Following a full-time enrollment in the XYZ program …" What you're doing is explaining the gap without apologizing for it. Mac Prichard: How about time spend raising children or caring for a parent or family member? Jenny Foss: Again, best defense is a good offense. "Following an extended illness or caretaking assignment for an ill family member, blah, blah, blah" or if you have 6, 7, 10 years that you haven't done anything in the workplace but maybe you went back to school for a while, sometimes it's better to rearrange the sections of your resume, put the education at the top and the experience lower so that instantly when the reviewer looks at it, they understand that you've actually been a student for the last 3, 4, or 5 years. It eases the gap and it gets that right in front of their eyeballs high up in the resume. Consider the order if you have some time off. Mac Prichard: Okay, speaking of order, strategic objective at the top or not at all? Jenny Foss: Not at all. I would do … Well, because we all know that your objective is to find a job and most every objective is just fluff and no stuff. Why not use that area at the top of your resume to do more of a career summary that highlights who you are and in what you specialize with your specific target audience in mind. You have a perfect opportunity to showcase you as a solution to those very things that you know your future employer is looking for in a summary section. Mac Prichard: For people who are sending their resume electronically, PDF or Word file? Jenny Foss: Word. Mac Prichard: Why not a PDF? Jenny Foss: Some applicant tracking systems, particularly those that are old and/or way less robust, so you're thinking small organizations, they have a difficult time reading and parsing the information in a PDF into the correct data fields. Your best bet is to go with a doc file. Mac Prichard: Final question, Jenny. A lot of our listeners are interested in career changes. What's your advice about how to write a resume as people prepare to make a career pivot? Jenny Foss: Well, you need to not only make yourself make sense for the new industry that you're going into, in whatever way you can, but if you have some background that actually might make you even more advantageous of a candidate than somebody who perhaps has taken a linear path through that industry that you're trying to break into, spell out how that equation works; like X + Y equals an even more appealing candidate. For instance, say you've been an engineer and you're trying to break into accounting and maybe you have been doing the books at your wife's photography business for the last 3, 5 years. First of all, you make sure you showcase that prominently on your resume. In that summary section, you spell out that you've got the engineering experience plus the bookkeeping experience and then what does it equal. Find some way in which your experience as an engineer or as whatever you've been in the past actually has given you some background that will make you better at what you're doing as an accountant than maybe somebody who's just taken that linear path. Mac Prichard: Okay. Well, thank you, Jenny. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. For people who want to learn more about Job Jenny and her books and her services, visit JobJenny.com. Jenny, I know when you and I talked before the show, you have a special offer for our listeners that you want to tell us about it? Jenny Foss: Sure. We have just recently launched our latest book which is The Ridiculously Awesome Career Pivot Kit. As you mentioned, we also have a couple of other titles including The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. We have set up a discount code or a promo code which is simply Macslist, all one word, and any of the listeners who would like to have a $15 discount off of any of our books which are in the shop, just use the Macslist discount code at check out and you'll get $15 off through the end of December. Mac Prichard: Great. We'll be sure to include that in the show notes along with the instructions about how to take advantage of that offer. Thank you, again, Jenny. Jenny Foss: Thank you. You guys have a good one. John Sepulvado: Hi, I'm John. I'm the producer of Find Your Dream Job. I want to encourage you to go iTunes and rate the show. You can leave a comment because when you do this, you help others find out about Find Your Dream Job. People like PDX Media, that's their username, she says, "I'm skeptical of podcasts that take my valuable time repeating information I've already read on the web, but this show is exactly the opposite. Mac and his team have created an essential job seeking tool with valuable tips, advice, and analysis in a perfectly sized show. Bravo!" PDX Media, thank you. You can join her and more than 50 others who've left comments. Go to macslist.org and find the link to our iTunes page. Do it now and share this with your friends because everyone should have a chance to find their dream job. Now, we return back to the show. Here's Mac Prichard. Mac Prichard: We're here in the studio with Ben and Cecilia. As you two reflect on the interview, what were some of the key takeaways for you? Ben Forstag: I think the big one for me was keeping your resume in the Word file format. I had always thought that the PDF format was best just to keep the formatting stable when you mail it. That was a new one for me. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, same. That was interesting. I also thought probably her most important point was that a resume is a marketing document and it's now somewhere you're going to list everything you've ever done. You need to be strategic with it and not just have an autobiography. Mac Prichard: Yeah, I so agree with you, Cecilia, because I do think people think it's a kind of laundry list of career responsibilities, not even accomplishments. To your point, the more strategic someone can be and to think of it as a marketing document, I think the more successful they'll be. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. Mac Prichard: Okay. Thanks for listening. We're grateful to the scores of people who have left ratings and reviews for our show on iTunes. This helps other discover Find Your Dream Job and we appreciate it. If you have a chance, please visit iTunes and let us know what you think. Feel free to leave questions and suggestions for the show and we'll be sure to act on those. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, you can always visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for a free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. Thanks for listening. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices