Ep. 014: The Millennials’ Guide to Finding a Job (Paul Angone)

Millennials, the 54 million Americans born after 1980, now account for more than a third of the workforce in the United States. Perhaps more than any generation, millennials stand out for wanting meaningful, purpose-driven careers. And they have brought new ideas about decision-making, management style, and work-life balance into the workforce. Millennials face challenges, too. Many started work in the middle of the Great Recession, which may result in up-to $100,000 of “lost” wages during their lifetime. Those lucky enough to find jobs were often overqualified. And there’s a stereotype that millennials are high maintenance and overly demanding. This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Paul Angone , an author, career coach, and advocate for millennial workers. Paul has dedicated himself to helping millennials overcome their fear of insignificance and find purposeful work. He believes that the secret to a great job is building your “signature sauce”--aligning your strengths, skills, and values around a need or problem that can be solved. In this 34-minute episode you will learn: The myriad motivators for millennials workers (it’s not just about a paycheck!) Why failure can help clarify your passions How to build genuine relationships when you network The recipe behind your own “signature sauce” Why you should watch out for OCD--“Obsessive Comparison Disorder” The best thing millennials can do to get a job they love This week’s guest: Paul Angone ( @PaulAngone | LinkedIn )Founder, All Groan Up Author, All Groan Up: Searching For Self, Faith, and a Freaking Job! and 101 Secrets For Your Twenties San Diego, Calif. Listener question of the week: How can I stand out as a recent college graduate? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org . Resources referenced on this week’s show: Answering the Three Career Questions: Your Lifetime Career Management System AllGroanUp.com SignatureSauce.com All Groan Up: Searching for Self, Faith, and a Freaking Job! 101 Secrets for Your Twenties Twentysomething Problems--as Told By Eggs Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond) - 2016 Edition If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org . -- Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes . We appreciate your support! Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com . -- FULL TRANSCRIPT Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, a podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and our book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). To learn more about the book and the updated edition we're publishing in February, come to our website. Just visit macslist.org/ebook. Millennials, the 54 million Americans born after 1980, who came of age in the New Millennium, now account for more than a third of the workforce in the United States. Perhaps more than any generation, Millennials stand out for wanting meaningful careers, and lives that balance career and family. They are also the first generation digital natives. Millennials face challenges, too. Many started work in the middle of the Great Recession, and entering a labor market during a recession can mean up to a hundred thousand dollars in lost wages during a lifetime. Those lucky enough to find jobs were often overqualified, and there's a stereotype out there of Millennials as high maintenance workers who are overly concerned with titles and status. This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about Millennials and the search of meaningful work. Joining us for our interview segment is Paul Angone. He's an expert on Millennials and the author of 101 Secrets for Your Twenties. Ben Forstag has a book for us that any generation can use to map out a career for meaningful work, and Cecilia Bianco has a question from a new college graduate just beginning a career. But first, let's check in with the Mac's List team. I think we have all three generations represented here. Ben Forstag: I think you might be right. Mac Prichard: For the benefit of our listeners, do people want to self-identify? Cecilia Bianco: I'm a Millennial. Mac Prichard: Okay, good. Ben? Ben Forstag: I was born in '79, so I'm right at the cusp between Generation X and Millennial. Mac Prichard: I'm a solid Boomer. I was born in 1958, so we have good representation here. Let's move on with our topic this week. Ben, you're out there every week looking around the internet and what have you found for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, can you hear this sound? Mac Prichard: That's very analog of you. Ben Forstag: It is, yes. I'm sure they have this book in digital format as well, but this week I'm talking about the physical book, and it's called Answering the Three Career Questions: Your Lifetime Career Management System, and this was a book that was recommended to me by Russell Terry, one of our long time listeners. The book is by author Bruce Hazen, and it's a really interesting read. The author has a very clear goal with this book, and it's to help people avoid the one-job-in-a-row trap. Too often, people see their career as simply the narrative of all their jobs, one after another, and you sometimes see that in their resume. Hazen says that people should really see their career as something different than the sum of their jobs. It's really a holistic narrative about what you find important, what you find interesting, engaging and satisfying as a professional. In a sense, he's flipping this on its head. The career should dictate what jobs you have and not vice versa. This is a concept I know we've talked a lot about in the podcast. In episode 2, Dawn Rasmussen called your career "the stream that runs beneath your current job", and even some of the practical tips we've provided around branding, resume building and interviewing, you can see this recurring theme of your career being a driving narrative behind your professional life. In his book, Bruce Hazen frames career management around three questions that professionals should regularly ask themselves. Those questions are: One, is it time to move up? In other words, do you need a development strategy to progress in your current organization? He makes a really interesting distinction between promotion and progression here. Promotion is about moving up in an established organizational hierarchy; getting a promotion essentially, while progressing is about improving your own subjective satisfaction with your job. He has this great quote: Up has dimension and not just direction, so moving up could mean adding complexity or authority to your work, enriching the job you've got, a lateral move to a job you like more, changing location, or even in some cases, moving down the hierarchy to a job that you prefer. Mac Prichard: I think as people think about their goals, it's important to remember titles alone aren't going to bring you satisfaction. Sometimes I think people think the only change that's a good one is one that has you moving up the hierarchy of your organization, but sometimes you might have other goals. I think for example, when I was working in the governor's office, I had an opportunity to take a position in politics with a group of state legislators and I turned that down to work for the State Purchasing Bureau. People said, "Why would you do that? Isn't that a step down?", and it was actually what I needed at that time, which was steady work, well-paying work, and it was a great opportunity for the year that I did that. Eventually it led me to another position in communications, which has been my career, but people I think here, Ben, shouldn't get hung up on just always moving up and up and up. Ben Forstag: Yeah, and I know in my own career, there have been a couple of times when I've taken a step down the hierarchy, or at least as it looked on paper or as it played out in my paycheck. At the time, a lot of people scratched their heads and I even questioned that, but in the long run, that ended up being the best possible move I could make because I ended up liking the new job more, and it helped me transition into new fields that I might not have been able to do so otherwise. The second question here is, is it time to move out? Is it time to move to a job that better aligns with your interests, passions and needs? Do you need a strategy to transition into this new organization or field? The question here is really fit. Does your current job or organization fit with who you are as a person? Hazen provides different tools to ascertain fit, with a lot of tests around measuring work values and ethics and things like that. He also outlines strategies for professionals who realize their current position isn't a good fit for who they are. Cecilia Bianco: I think this one's great and it would be so good if people would sit down and do these tests before they start looking for a job and interviewing, because if they know what they want as far as fit, they're going to have a much easier job search. Ben Forstag: Yeah, I think fit is so important, and I know I've been in jobs where I just haven't been a good fit for the organization and it wasn't my fault or the organization's fault, it just wasn't an alignment. If you can get clear about what a good fit is before you start the job, that's clearly a benefit. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. Ben Forstag: The third question here is, is it time to adapt your style for greater success? That is are you in the right position, but not getting the right traction or the right results in that position? This question is really aimed at people who have the right technical skills to succeed, but need a new approach to their colleagues or to their organization. Hazen shares a couple of different strategies for using your skills in interacting with others, all with the intent of improving your productivity and satisfaction with your current job. When I talked to our listener Russell about this, I asked him why exactly he liked this book so much, and this is what he said: "I found it helpful to break things down to three basic questions and to emphasize that through our careers, we keep coming back to these same three questions." I really, really liked what Russell said here, and I totally agree with him. I think the strong point about this book is that it does bring all these questions back into the center of the conversation over and over again, so I strongly suggest to anyone who is looking at career management tools, check out this book. Again, the book is called Answering the Three Career Questions: Your Lifetime Career Management System, and it's by author Bruce Hazen, and we will have a link to the book in our show notes. Mac Prichard: Thank you, Ben, and thank you, Russell, for that suggestion. Do you have a book or a podcast or website that has been helpful to you in your job search or managing your career? Let Ben know about it. You can write him directly, and his email address is Ben@macslist.org . Now let's turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia Bianco, our community manager is here, and she answers one of your questions. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, our question this week is how can I stand out as a recent college graduate? I personally think the best way to stand out as a recent grad is to have an established and strong personal brand, so your goal should be, if an employer looks online for you, are they going to view you as a professional or a college student? Obviously, the goal is to look like a professional, even if you haven't graduated yet. Are they going to be able to tell what your career interests are based on what they find about you online? Something I was required to do in my college program before I graduated was to create a personal website that showcased my experience and my goals for the future, and this was a great way for me and my classmates to really stand out. It made us look a bit more polished and prepared to start job searching because it forced us to figure out the type of job and industry that we could realistically apply for and have a good chance of getting. Beyond just building your personal website, your social media profiles, your resume and cover letter and your business cards should all fit with this personal brand that you're building for yourself. One girl in my program I was very impressed with. She created a logo for herself and used it to build a template for her website application material and it really made her stand out. She had no trouble getting interviews because her branded materials made her look like a seasoned professional rather than a college student or a recent grad. Mac and Ben, what are your thoughts on how college grads can stand out? Ben Forstag: I think the number one way that anyone can stand out, whether you're a college grad or an established professional, is good writing. It is so rare to find someone who can write concisely and clearly nowadays, and anyone who does that is a real valued commodity I think in almost any organization, so whether that writing shows in your portfolio or the writing sample you submit as part of your application or even the language you use on your website, the more you can showcase good writing ability, the more you'll stand out with employers. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, that's definitely true, and building a personal website is one way to get your writing and your message about yourself really clear. Ben Forstag: Yeah, and definitely good writing is part of the brand that you present about yourself. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. Mac Prichard: Yeah, I think good writing is always effective, no matter what your age or what stage you are in your career. For recent college graduates, it's a tactical tip, but one thing that can make them stand out I think, Cecilia, is just having a business card. It's old-fashioned, but it fits in with your earlier point about having a strong personal brand. When I meet recent college graduates, often they don't have cards, but they either ask for mine or would I offer them a card. There's an opportunity there to be on equal footing by sharing a card of their own. It's easy to do and is a way of distinguishing yourself. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely. The people in my program, since we all had cards, when we would get sent out to networking events, we would talk about how some of the employers, they would be shocked when we handed over a business card, and we hadn't graduated yet, so that's definitely really important. Ben Forstag: Two points about business cards: One is they do make you feel like a professional when you have them and you start handing them out. You feel like hey, I've made it. The other one is you can get business cards really cheaply online, like ten dollars will buy you five hundred business cards, so it's definitely a good investment and a really cheap investment as well. Mac Prichard: Yeah, and you can get them for free. There's services that do that, but they're branded by the company that produces them, and I think spend the five or ten dollars it takes to get one with your own personal brand. Ben Forstag: Definitely. Mac Prichard: Okay, well, thanks, Cecilia. That was a great question. If you have a question for Cecilia, you can email her. Her address is Cecilia@macslist.org. I noticed today on Twitter, Cecilia, one of our listeners was tweeting at both of us, and she said that she'd sent you several questions. Cecilia Bianco: Oh, yeah, I already got her questions. Mac Prichard: Terrific. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better. We're adding new content and we're making the book available on multiple e-reader platforms. In February, we'll launch a new version of the book, and you'll for the first time be able to access it on Kindle, Nook, iPad and other digital devices, and for the first time, you'll be able to get a paperback edition. Thank you, Ben, so whatever the format, our goal's the same. We want you to have the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. For more information, go to our website. Visit macslist.org/ebook. You can sign up for our e-book newsletter, and when you do that, you'll get publication updates, exclusive book content, and we'll provide you with special pre-sale prices. Now let's turn to this week's guest, Paul Angone. Paul is a leading voice to and for millennials. He loves helping millennials uncover their unique signature sauce to find where their passion, purpose and career collide. Paul is a best selling author of 101 Secrets For Your Twenties and All Groan Up. He's also a national speaker and the creator of AllGroanUp.com, which has been read by millions of people in more than 190 countries. Paul, thanks for joining us today. Paul Angone: Oh, thank you for having me. It's an honor being here. Mac Prichard: Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Now Paul, millennials stand out for a number of reasons, but what is most striking I think about this generation is their desire for work that has purpose. Why do you think it's such an important value for millennials? Paul Angone: Yeah, that's a great question. You're right. When I look at all the research I've done over the years, all the blog articles I've written, all the emails I've received from millennials, really all over the world. I don't think this is just solely in the United States where we're at, but I think this is worldwide. If I distill it down I think one of millennials' greatest fears is insignificance. Is this feeling of I'm doing work that has no point and my life is kind of meaningless. I'm just showing up everyday going through the motions. I think millennials are truly at their core for the most part really driven by trying to find this meaningful work. Trying to find purpose and trying to do something that feels like man, this really means something important to me and I'm not just getting a paycheck or working for the corner office. Millennials really aren't wired that way. They have different motivators than just a pay hike. They really want to find work that is drenched in purpose. Mac Prichard: How do you see millennials get clear about that purpose? What do people who are successful at chasing their purpose do? Paul Angone: That's the million dollar question, isn't it? That's the tough one. It can become very difficult. I know for myself it was a very frustrating process in a sense because I loved hearing about I want to follow my passion, I want to do work I'm passionate about, but I was really struggling with how do you figure that out. How do you find what you're passionate about? I didn't have a clue. I was going through college doing all the right things, getting the good grades, trying to pick the right major, pick the right internship, taking these steps. I felt like if I just kept taking the right steps up there somewhere was going to be success. Up there somewhere was going to be my passion. Yet when I got up there I still felt as lost as ever. Maybe even more lost because I didn't know what my passion was. For me, and I think for a lot of millennials going through the same kind of process, is that it is a process. It takes time and it takes one thing in particular that I don't think a lot of us think about or want to think about, but I think one of the really big clarifiers to finding your passion is failure. I didn't really want to hear that or understand that when I was searching for my passion, but I think failure becomes that great clarifier. Because when you've failed at something but yet you want to keep doing it, well then you've found something, there's something there that you're really truly passionate about. Mac Prichard: Let's explore that because I think that's one thing that many of us are taught to avoid at all costs is failure. Paul Angone: Exactly. Yeah. Mac Prichard: Why do you think it makes such a big difference for people who are trying to find their purpose? Paul Angone: I think it's easy to say that you're passionate about something or you're excited about something that you are achieving a lot of success in. Or maybe you're getting accolades for or getting good grades or you're getting money to do it, but when those externals start going away or in my case I really wanted to write a book. I was passionate about wanting to help specifically twenty-somethings that were struggling in kind of the what now of life after college. Yet for years I couldn't get a publisher to say yes to anything I was writing. I couldn't get people to return emails. I thought my email was broken at one point because I couldn't get anybody to return an email of mine. I quickly realized that I was truly passionate about this topic, about helping twenty-somethings, about trying to write and speak to them because even through all the no's and rejections I still kept showing up and I kept writing and I kept pursuing it and hammering away at it. I really figured out that that was something I was truly passionate about. Where other ideas that I had, other pursuits, business ideas, things that I did when I hit those first couple of obstacles like all of us will, I quickly quit. I quit that dream. I went another way because really I wasn't in it for the right reasons. I wasn't truly passionate about that endeavor. Like I was when I was writing and trying to really reach twenty-somethings. Mac Prichard: Okay, so there's a big difference between enthusiasms and passion. Tell us how can you figure out what is your passion. Does it require failure or is there a shortcut? Paul Angone: Well, I think we'd all be lying to ourselves if we thought failure wasn't a part of it. You know? Mac Prichard: Okay. Paul Angone: Just like any good entrepreneur, and I've actually tried to infuse more of this in my lifestyle, I never thought of myself as an entrepreneur before, but I've kind of become and entrepreneur through circumstances. I'm trying to develop more of what I call an entrepreneurial mindset. I think what entrepreneurs are really good at and what they understand is that failure is just that learning process and when they release products even in the business realm they beta test products. They release version 1.0. Basically they release something that they know is not complete, that they know is not perfect, that they know in some respect will fail and that's kind of the point because they know that they'll learn so much through the process and the feedback and the test groups and those kinds of things that when they create version 2.0 it's going to be better. I think for all of us, whether we're an entrepreneur or not, when you're pursuing something and you feel like yeah, this is something. I feel alive when I'm pursuing this. I feel passionate, these words that we say. It's not having that fear that you're going to fail. Because the possibility for greatness and embarrassment both exist in the same space. You really can't have one without the other. Mac Prichard: Okay. For millennials who want to pursue their passion, and I meet many every day who do, they should expect fear and that failure will be part of that process. It's a good feedback mechanism. It shows you that you're on the right path particularly if you persist and you keep getting up even when you're knocked down. Now, once people have figured out they need to follow that passion and be persistent about it, what are some of the other career challenges you see for millennials? Paul Angone: Yeah and I think following your passion and pursuing that, it's such a big overwhelming word. Mac Prichard: It is, yeah. Paul Angone: I even have to break it down. That's why I love talking about this metaphor of finding your signature sauce because it gives me a great mental image of what I think the metaphor looks like. When I talk about finding your signature sauce I mean the blend of ingredients that are coming together within each person to create that kind of flavor, to create that passion, to create that signature sauce that they want to serve to the world so to speak. I think even in this idea of finding your passion, I think we can unpack that even more for millennials or for really anybody and break down I think some key ingredients that go into that. For one of those as millennials are pursuing their career and trying to find jobs that align with that, one I think it's really a simple way is finding something that your strengths and your skills align with. I think for a lot of us we become passionate about something and we want to keep pursuing it when we feel like we're good at it, when we have some skill sets that resonate with that, that we have some strengths that we really lend to this arena that makes us feel good when we're doing it because we're achieving some sort of success in that endeavor. It doesn't have to be all about failure, you know? There is the skills and strengths that are a part of that. Then another crucial ingredient I think that aligns with that is your values. Mac Prichard: Lets talk about values and the difference they can make, Paul. Paul Angone: Yeah. Yeah, to make it personal for me and when I started realizing this is I felt like a strength of mine, and this can be up for debate and your listeners can debate this if they want, but I felt a strength of mine was communication. I felt like I loved speaking, I loved writing, I loved communicating ideas. I always thought I should try to do a sales job because then I'd be in front of people, I'd be speaking, I'd be using that strength of communication. Yet I took a couple sales jobs and I was absolutely terrible as a salesman. I was just terrible and I hated it. I didn't enjoy it. I started realizing that I had a value of being authentic. Authenticity was a really crucial value of mine. Actually in a couple sales jobs when I felt like I was selling something that I didn't really believe in and I felt like I was being inauthentic it actually kind of undercut my strength. My strength was no longer that strong because my value was more important to me. Really it was that value of authenticity aligning with my strength of communication and then that was where my sweet spot was. When I really get passionate about something like helping people, helping twenty-somethings, giving them hope and truth and hilarity, I get excited about that because I really believe in it. It really ties in with my value. Mac Prichard: Okay, so I want to move onto some other topics, but before we leave this idea of the secret sauce and the ingredients, you talked about the importance of skills and strengths and recognizing values. Are there one or two other key ingredients you want to share with people? Paul Angone: Yeah, I think another really big one that was really the driving force behind me pursuing and pushing through obstacles is I think people when they find a passion and when they talk about something they're passionate about, a lot of the times it directly relates to a need or a problem that they really want to fix. We see needs and problems very differently depending on our background, our story, where we're at, the way were raised. All the different intricacies that make us us. Even you and I mac, we might see problems and needs in a very different way. I think for all of us, when you're pursuing something that is bigger than yourself, and it doesn't have to be huge. You don't have to be changing the world here. Maybe it is, but maybe it's even a problem that you see in your current job. Maybe you see something that can be optimized and could run smoother. Or maybe it is that you see homeless people in your community and you see that as a huge need that you want to do something about. I think sometimes when we take our strengths and our skills and we take our values and then we align those with really serving or trying to solve a need or a problem, man, I think that will push you through more obstacles than anything. That's really what my story was about was pursuing a need and a problem where I felt like there was a lot of people that needed this information and needed kind of this hope and insight. Even if I was getting rejected I felt like this is such a big issue, I'm going to keep doing it because if I'm not going to do it, who else is? I have to keep hammering away at this. I think something will work out. Mac Prichard: I think that's excellent advice both from a strategic point of view, but for job seekers in general because when employers are looking for help they've got a problem. They have a need that has to be addressed. Understanding that need and knowing how your strengths and your skills can help solve that problem I find puts candidates who can do that at the front of the crowd. So excellent advice Paul. Paul Angone: Exactly. Mac Prichard: Let's talk specifically about millennials and maybe some tactile things. Is there one thing that you recommend every millennials do to get a better job? Or just a job. Paul Angone: Yeah. Yeah, there's so much nowadays and I guess I'll hone in on one thing. Typically when we're talking about the job search and all this it can be very overwhelming, but we all know that a lot of job opportunities, we've seen the stats, they'll come through networking or through relationships. I know for myself, networking was always challenging for me because again, it's kind of that value of authenticity, but I think a lot of millennials feel this way where it can kind of feel inauthentic. Or you're going to a networking event and maybe you feel like that used car salesman that's pushing your business card to everybody and trying to get an opportunity or trying to make a pitch, your elevator speech so that you can get that job. Really for me, when I started thinking about it more as what I call relation-shipping, so not networking per se, but relation-shipping. Why I call it that is because I feel like when you're focused on building just relationships and giving to people and adding value and when you're meeting people you're not just pitching them on your elevator speech about how amazing you are, but you're just asking them questions about how amazing they are for the first five minutes. You don't say anything about yourself. That becomes such a more effective way to build relationships, but also in a turn, a byproduct of that is people like you more. They want to help you. Now when they have a job opportunity maybe they think about your first because people love being able to talk about themselves. If you can ask them good questions and focus more on relation-shipping, building value added relationships, man, I think that's really going to set you apart instead of talking about yourself and being a me monster at a networking event. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I think that goes back to your earlier point, Paul about thinking about the needs of others and their problems and how you can help solve them. Paul Angone: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mac Prichard: Not thinking just about your own needs. Paul Angone: Exactly. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Well, your first book was 101 Secrets For Your Twenties. Can you do a lightning round of those secrets for us? Paul Angone: Oh sure. Yeah, there's 101 of them so it's always hard to pick my favorites. I think one of them that has resonated with a lot of people is to watch out for what I call the new OCD. Which it's not the OCD as we typically think of, but it's obsessive comparison disorder. I think for a lot of millennials especially this is so prevalent nowadays, especially through social media. I think for any of us that is going through transition, that is maybe trying to change jobs or you feel like well, I'm not doing my passion right now. I'm working in a coffee shop or I'm selling insurance. I'm not really that excited about my life. It can become very hard when you're looking at social media and you're looking at the perceived amazing-ness of everybody else's lives and what we're showcasing on social media. Which isn't always the most accurate truth that I think most of us know, but it doesn't feel that way sometimes. Watch out for what I call obsessive comparison disorder. Because if you're always measuring yourself up to the images that people are putting up on Instagram or are on Facebook, you're always going to feel lacking or you're always going to feel like I'm not enough. I think that's a really big one. Mac Prichard: Okay. Excellent advice. We're coming to the end of our interview, Paul. Tell me, what's next for you? What do you have coming up? Paul Angone: Yeah, for me I'm really excited actually about an online course that I've started called Finding Your Signature Sauce. I just took my first group of students through it just now and it's been amazing to be able to walk through this process with people and go on a deeper level than just through blogs or books, but actually have a personal relationship and get to know a lot of people. That's probably the thing that I'm most excited about right now is just refining that and really helping people through that process of finding your signature sauce and all that entails. Mac Prichard: Great. Well thank you, Paul. Tell our listeners how they can find you online. Where can they learn more about you, your books and your work? Paul Angone: Yeah, they can find me at my main website is AllGroanUp.com and groan is spelled like you're groaning in pain, All Groan Up. I like to say that it's pun-derful, is my go to joke. Yeah, All Groan Up. They can find me on Twitter at Paul Angone, A-N-G-O-N-E or they can find me at SignatureSauce.com. Any of those websites or through Twitter. Reach out if you have questions. Id love to connect with you. Mac Prichard: Great and we'll be sure to include those links in the show notes. Thanks for joining us this week, Paul. Paul Angone: Thank you, Mac. Mac Prichard: Well, we're back with Cecilia and Ben. Tell me, what do you think we're the most important points you heard Paul make? Cecilia Bianco: I really liked his point about how to tell what your real passions are. He mentioned that if you fail at something and you keep doing it because you enjoy it so much, that's how you can tell that you're passionate about it. Following that I think is really key when you're a millennial trying to find the career you want. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I identified with that too. In my 20s and 30s I worked on a lot of election campaigns. I worked on a lot of losing campaigns and I kept showing up every election cycle. We won some, but I was so passionate about that work and the opportunity it offered to make a difference I kept signing up for campaigns even when we lost. Ben Forstag: I liked his point about finding a problem that needs to be fixed. I know for me personally that resonates because I find the most enjoyment in my work when there is this problem. It doesn't need to be a giant problem. It could be how to increase the open rates on an email for example, but having that problem to explore and to test things out, that really animates a lot of where I find enjoyment in work. Mac Prichard: Good. I think that was good advice not only for millennials, but for any generation. Well, thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime visit us at MacsList.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter with more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show you can help us by leaving a review and a rating at iTunes. This helps other job seekers discover the show. It helps us help more people. Thank you for listening. 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